Is Satele Shan a failure?

[Axcalion]

Yes she discovered Tython and probably did some good things. However, not only is she a hypocrite (she preaches celibacy even though she broke it herself and even had a child), she also seems relatively incompetent.

I get that she isn't a teen anymore, but that didn't stop Mace, Palpatine or Yoda. Not only that she just sits around doing nothing, as does the whole Council. She just gives orders and let other Jedi handle it instead of actually doing something.

She also doesn't seem that powerful, she got her butt kicked by Malgus twice until she began using the Force the last time she faced him. She would lose quite fast in a duel against the 4 Force using classes as well. Isn't the Grand Master supposed to be the most powerful Jedi of all? That would either be the Hero of Tython or Barsenthor, by far.

She also doesn't seem that wise and her incompetence almost led to the destruction of the Jedi Order, twice, while relying on other people to the saving. Not only that, after having a son she just left him and pretended he didn't exist like a coward instead of admitting her mistakes to the Jedi.

How has she not been removed/impeached?

And now she's just chilling on Odessen with her best friend Darth Marr doing nothing instead of helping her fellow Jedi and people in need. It seems she has given up all hope and if she gets out of the expansion alive she should get replaced by someone more fit for the position.

If there was a worst Grandmaster award, she might get it.

 

Also, why is the Jedi Council so empty and how did the Togruta lady even land a job there, she is like the weakest Jedi in the whole game. Do they actually do something besides supposedly guiding and leading the Order?

 

What does everyone else think?

[SerraShar]

Love Satele....Jennifer Hail voice her , would vote for her 100%

[BlazeTomahawk]

Mist be nepotism. She comes from a Strong force family , so she gets considered for advancement above and beyond more capable peers

[Falensawino]

Is Satele Shan a failure?

I thought so too since the first day I watched "return" trailer, her Jedi master had to save her twice. If it weren't for his awareness of not only his actions but his apprentice's actions as well, Satele wouldn't have made it past the first trailer.

 

Official Return trailer

2:58 Malgus disarms her, Master throws his saber to save her

3:07 Couldn't impede force lighting, Master had to disable the Sith to save her

3:14 And of course a battle-tested Jedi Master had to sacrifice himself so the ship carrying Satele could escape

 

 

Love Satele....Jennifer Hail voice her , would vote for her 100%

Jenn Hale is great, Satele not so much. Have to separate character from actor sometimes.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Falensawino

[Severitus]

She seemed to have some moments in SoR, particularly on Yavin. As for leadership, how many times did Yoda leave the Jedi Temple? Even when he did leave it, he rarely fought. He still stood safely behind the battle lines giving orders for others to follow.

 

I have thought it was weird that as a republic character, you meet up with Marr on his flagship to start KotFE. Where was Shan at? Then she just shows up in a couple of random cutscenes? Maybe she's wise enough to know that she shouldn't play much of a role in this expansion.

 

Oh, and speaking of the nepotism...my theory is that she and Marr are brother and sister.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Severitus
additional content

[Severitus]

I thought so too since the first day I watched "return" trailer, her Jedi master had to save her twice. If it weren't for his awareness of not only his actions but his apprentice's actions as well, Satele wouldn't have made it past the first trailer.

 

Official Return trailer

2:58 Malgus disarms her, Master throws his saber to save her

3:07 Couldn't impede force lighting, Master had to disable the Sith to save her

3:14 And of course a battle-tested Jedi Master had to sacrifice himself so the ship carrying Satele could escape

 

Maybe I'm misremembering this trailer, but wasn't she a padawan during that trailer? If so, I would think these "mistakes" would be forgivable considering who she was fighting, and how much more BA she was in the next trailer she's in.

[wolfyde]

.my theory is that she and Marr are brother and sister.

 

Ooh I like that idea...

 

edit: I actually liked the Satele character quite a lot. But I do hope she'll get a role in the upcoming chapters, and we get to see her kick some serious backside!

Edited December 9, 2015 by wolfyde

[SerraShar]

 

 

 

Jenn Hale is great, Satele not so much. Have to separate character from actor sometimes.

 

Considering the game and most of Star war is men oriented , leave me some female role model and fantasy

[BlazeTomahawk]

If Shan and Marr weren't siblings before this post, some writer had better read it and make it so. It's the only rational explanation for his force ghost to appear to her

[BlueyedJedi]

She doesn't need to work since her dang tunic is 9 million credits on the GTN.

[Xaosage]

I thought so too since the first day I watched "return" trailer, her Jedi master had to save her twice. If it weren't for his awareness of not only his actions but his apprentice's actions as well, Satele wouldn't have made it past the first trailer.

 

Official Return trailer

2:58 Malgus disarms her, Master throws his saber to save her

3:07 Couldn't impede force lighting, Master had to disable the Sith to save her

3:14 And of course a battle-tested Jedi Master had to sacrifice himself so the ship carrying Satele could escape

 

True but she was young there, She seem to be much more in touch with the force then her master did as she felt the empire return before he could. Not sure how long the empire was away but this could possible be her 1st fight against the sith.

 

In the second trailer she is does much better, she cut down 2 or 3 sith just to get to Malgus. Malgus is still clear the better duelist but once she started using her Force powers she own him.

 

it's likely she is grand master because she is has the greatest connect to the force and played a big part in the war leading up to the treaty. Hero of Tython or Barsenthor would likely replace her in time.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Xaosage

[BorisKarloffe]

Remember several things:

1. this is a video game and not a novel/movie. Hence, of course the main actions will be left to the pc and not the npc's, no matter how "powerful or important" they are supposed to be. This formula repeats itself over and over in every flashpoint, heroic, storyline etc. in the game. The only thing that changes are the reasons they use to remove the powerful npcs from the equation, some of which are laughable at times.

 

2. As the Shan/Revan heir apparent, of course she was going to be the poster child for the game and impossible to kill off without fanboys raging.

 

3. Higher level jedi is something a LOT of writers have struggled to accurately depict well. It tends to vacilate wildly between roguish pragmatists that sometimes/eventually fall to the dark side and over the top goody two shoes blissfully unaware of how life works.

 

4. Despite the way a lot of people approach the topic, star wars isn't/shouldn't be Dragonball Z. It's not solely about power levels or about who has the most powerful artifact etc. Once people start thinking about it like that, it becomes rather boring and cliched, completely removing the chance for people to be people as well as anything else factoring into a conflict's outcome other than "midichlorian count".

 

5. Whether someone is a "failure" or not depends on your view of success. If one uses the in game events you have layed out, then technically every powerful npc in the game is a failure except the PC's. The dark council, the jedi council, Marr, Satele, even Valkorion all fail to stop things that cause untold destruction. I would use Yoda as an example, but that would require us to talk about the prequels...[shudders]...nope.

 

6. While in the hype/material up to launching the game, I thought Satele would be a huge part of things, I was disappointed to find out otherwise. After awhile, it's become apparent that Bioware wants to use her as someone who's important, but who's "glory years" are behind them, but you will still see them here and there...because she's a Shan and there must always be a connection to Revan present or some people...just...can't...handle it.

 

7. As far as hypocrisy, I think at one point you find out that half the sitting masters on the jedi council have children running around if u play both knight and consular storylines. She's not the only one and you also find out some of the masters are very aware of this if I remember right. Also, when you meet Theron later, it's apparent he does nothing to hide his name/heritage.

 

--I thought the core/vanilla storylines were done well enough, and Makeb wasn't bad, but SoR felt like pure Revan exploitation and an obvious ripoff of other fantasy elements (Revan=Gollum, Emperor=Sauron). KotFE has been better from a pure story/drama perspective, but they're still playing a bit fast and loose with the lore, though they might prove me wrong later since we don't know how it ends.

 

TL;DR : If Satele is a failure, it's because Bioware has of necessity made her so to further the play model/direction of the game, but she will still get screen time and fans because...kotor.

[unibim]

If Shan and Marr weren't siblings before this post, some writer had better read it and make it so. It's the only rational explanation for his force ghost to appear to her

 

How so? They can appear anywhere to any person.

[Ghisallo]

To the OP. Is it being a hypocrite when one learns from one's mistakes? If that is true then we are all screwed.

 

Second she does do what Yoda did. Recall that he lead from a command posts just like she lead from the deck of a Star Ship in SoR. Yoda didn't run all over the Galaxy doing stuff, that is what Obi Wan and Anakin were for.

Saying she does nothing is akin to saying Eisenhower did nothing in WWiI.

 

I could go on but yeah...

[Warrgames]

If Shan and Marr weren't siblings before this post, some writer had better read it and make it so. It's the only rational explanation for his force ghost to appear to her

 

Someone better tell Darth Vader that his not really Luke's daddy. That Padmé Amidala was shacking up with Obi Wan Kenobi. That is the only way Obi Wan could appear to Luke by your theory.

[Jeweledleah]

just to point something out. jedi are not celibate and celibacy is not a prerequisite. having physical relationship is fine. what they do preach is not giving in to love, romance, attachment.

 

and given how Satelle is dealing with her own son? she is most certainly practicing what she's preaching.

[Rankyn]

Someone better tell Darth Vader that his not really Luke's daddy. That Padmé Amidala was shacking up with Obi Wan Kenobi. That is the only way Obi Wan could appear to Luke by your theory.

Also Yoda.

[Morthion]

Yes she discovered Tython and probably did some good things. However, not only is she a hypocrite (she preaches celibacy even though she broke it herself and even had a child)

 

That's true to Jedi form in the Old Republic. Nobody sleeps in their own bed on the good guy's side.

 

, she also seems relatively incompetent.

I get that she isn't a teen anymore, but that didn't stop Mace, Palpatine or Yoda.

 

From doing what, exactly?

 

Not only that she just sits around doing nothing, as does the whole Council. She just gives orders and let other Jedi handle it instead of actually doing something.

 

That sounds like . . . the job of the person in charge. Tell other people where they need to go. An effective leader doesn't go and get themselves killed on a lark.

 

She also doesn't seem that powerful, she got her butt kicked by Malgus twice until she began using the Force the last time she faced him. She would lose quite fast in a duel against the 4 Force using classes as well. Isn't the Grand Master supposed to be the most powerful Jedi of all? That would either be the Hero of Tython or Barsenthor, by far.

 

So far as I can tell, Mace Windu was the Grand Master, but Yoda was the more adept at using the force. The Grand Master's function in that of most any organization is that of administrator, in the most positive sense of the term.

 

She also doesn't seem that wise and her incompetence almost led to the destruction of the Jedi Order, twice, while relying on other people to the saving. Not only that, after having a son she just left him and pretended he didn't exist like a coward instead of admitting her mistakes to the Jedi.

 

Sounds true to Jedi form, as well. I didn't notice Obi-Wan or Yoda lining up to admit their mistakes. Not to mention Windu's basic incompetence in sending a teenage boy out into seclusion with Natalie Portman. What did he think was going to happen?

 

How has she not been removed/impeached?

 

The same way the other Jedi managed it. The Republic and the Jedi got so used to thinking the Jedi were good guys that they failed to notice they had ceased to be so.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Morthion

[Daex]

 

What does everyone else think?

 

With all honestly, I agree. It feels like you quoted me, that is how much I agree.

 

 

Maybe I'm misremembering this trailer, but wasn't she a padawan during that trailer? If so, I would think these "mistakes" would be forgivable considering who she was fighting, and how much more BA she was in the next trailer she's in.

 

She was, but Malgus was apprentice, too. They are the same age. I think she is younger one year, or something like that. In the next trailer she also got saved by her lover.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Daex

[TrentEaston]

Just jumping in to point out: If you romance Kira with the JK, she'll dig in the archives and find out that marriage is even allowed for Jedi, with approval of the council.

As someone else pointed out: Just attachment is forbidden.

And you need to produce more Jedi, so procriation seems a necessity

 

Satele having a son is not breaking any rules.

[lukewarcriminal]

She doesn't need to work since her dang tunic is 9 million credits on the GTN.

i wonder how much do u have to pay her so she actually take it off

[Severitus]

Just jumping in to point out: If you romance Kira with the JK, she'll dig in the archives and find out that marriage is even allowed for Jedi, with approval of the council.

As someone else pointed out: Just attachment is forbidden.

And you need to produce more Jedi, so procriation seems a necessity

 

Satele having a son is not breaking any rules.

 

The no marriage thing seemed to simply be an invention of Lucas in order to be used as a plot device for Anakin's turn to the dark side. IMO, this was an unfortunate decision as it should a factor, but a minor one. The major factor should've been Anakin's views coming into conflict with those of the Jedi Order as a whole. Instead, he focused on the relationship, and that hurt the prequels in the long run.

 

In addition, Lucas' decision changed the narrative to be focused on the marriage of a Jedi versus the Jedi having an attachment. The attachment could be viewed as a bad thing because it could possibly take away a Jedi's ability to be objective and possibly leading to the use of emotions more favored by dark side users. As previous posters have pointed out, and I think I remember seeing it in a Cracked.com video...if you have a bunch of "good" guys that are strong in the force, wouldn't you want to ENCOURAGE them to procreate? Passing on the genes, passing on the values, etc. In this way, you create the burning flame of an entire family line of Jedi that could help the galaxy for generations, rather than the relatively brief flare of a single Jedi.

[Severitus]

If Shan and Marr weren't siblings before this post, some writer had better read it and make it so. It's the only rational explanation for his force ghost to appear to her

 

No, I don't think it's the only rational explanation for it. But, it does suggest to me that there is a deeper connection between the two than one would assume between a Sith and a Jedi.

 

What led me to think they might have some sort of familial bond is the fact that even though there are differences between the two (strong differences of opinion and how they go about things), there never seems to be any true animosity between the two. In SoR, they were very quick to agree to an alliance (yes, one could argue the quick alliance is due to the threat and needing to move the story along quickly).

 

 

In the cutscene where you choose to give the imperial guard to either Shan or Marr, both say that they will remember this, but neither go off on a rant about how you can never trust a sith/jedi, neither draw lightsabers on the other over it, etc.

 

 

There seems to be a deep respect between the two that goes beyond that of merely a powerful Sith and a powerful Jedi. It suggests to me that, at the very least, there is a deep history between the two, if not family members.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Severitus
spelling error

[lingarn]

As for leadership, how many times did Yoda leave the Jedi Temple? Even when he did leave it, he rarely fought. He still stood safely behind the battle lines giving orders for others to follow.

 

To be fair...

 

If Yoda is 900 when Luke is a man, then we never see him younger than about 850 years old. Even if you assume he only biologically ages one year per chronological ten, he is ancient. In these twilight years, we see him take down one Sith (who has to flee to survive), go toe to toe with the Emperor, and slice through clones like a lightsaber through butter.

 

And that's when he is ancient. Satele Shan is still in her prime during the events of SWTOR, and fails to accomplish virtually anything of note.

[Ghisallo]

The no marriage thing seemed to simply be an invention of Lucas in order to be used as a plot device for Anakin's turn to the dark side. IMO, this was an unfortunate decision as it should a factor, but a minor one. The major factor should've been Anakin's views coming into conflict with those of the Jedi Order as a whole. Instead, he focused on the relationship, and that hurt the prequels in the long run.

 

In addition, Lucas' decision changed the narrative to be focused on the marriage of a Jedi versus the Jedi having an attachment. The attachment could be viewed as a bad thing because it could possibly take away a Jedi's ability to be objective and possibly leading to the use of emotions more favored by dark side users. As previous posters have pointed out, and I think I remember seeing it in a Cracked.com video...if you have a bunch of "good" guys that are strong in the force, wouldn't you want to ENCOURAGE them to procreate? Passing on the genes, passing on the values, etc. In this way, you create the burning flame of an entire family line of Jedi that could help the galaxy for generations, rather than the relatively brief flare of a single Jedi.

 

Actually KOTOR's lore has contradicted the EU on this issue, imo. If you read the comics rin the old republic era romance and marriages are not forbidden. Part of the Ruusan Reformation, the muligan they used to correct the inconsistencies between the Old Republic comics, episodes IV-VI and the prequels, said the Jedi Order, agreed to a request/demand of the Republic after the Great Sith War. By the end there were "Jedi Lords" and generals, there were long running families strong in the force (the Qel Droma line comes immediately to mind). While they did not try to take power, with no Sith to fight (rule of two now in effect) the Republic was VERY uncomfortable with the idea of armored Jedi Armies and fleets all lead by Jedi Lords. It had the appearance of an occupying Army. They also were uncomfortable about the concept of "Force Dyansties.". This all to explain why the Jedi Knights were not armored warriors but rather medicate monks, why the romance had to hidden, heck they even said that they reset the Galactic Calendar in order to explain Obi Wan talking about Generations but Bail Organa only 1000 years.

 

I think this game takes the tack it does with romance and marriage in order to make the lore more consistent with the movies as, more than likely, a majority of the players never heard the names Ulic Qel Droma or Naomi Sunrider before they bought the game.