Where most jedi during the end of the old Jedi order weak?

[ConVallian]

Yeah but if that's the golden age, how come they are so much weaker than the Old Repubic Jedi Masters who every single one of them are massively impressive. I mean in the first mission as a new Jedi knight you see a master bring down an entire cave system of stone to plug it up. Bad guys who aren't even masters do similar tricks.

Well i wouldn't call the Masters of the clone wars weak by any sense of the word, but the Order was complacent. Keep in mind when the Clone Wars broke there was a 1000 years of peace, meaning the Jedi alive never lived through a Galaxy wide war..But the Old Republic Masters on the other hand lived most of their lives in war,against Sith mind you, not roger roger droids so i would call the Old Republic masters more experienced than the PT era masters, not necessarily stronger. Also we see on Geonosis how many jedi were slain, it was merely the lack of battle experience that caused most jedi deaths, it was only because of the skill Jedi like Skywalker, Kenobi, Windu, Yoda, and a few others had that they survived during the War. If grievous fought Satele or Revan he'd be destroyed before he could pull his lightsabers out, cause there's nothing grievous is or can do that would top what they have seen, most of the clone wars era masters rarely actually participated in life or death duels with oher saber wielders, and someone like grievous with his four lightsabers is sure to intimidate the young and inexperienced,overpowering them because of it. like a previous poster said, he's a monster, but he wouldn't scare the Old republic masters, most of them anyway

Edited December 5, 2015 by ConVallian

[adormitul]

Well there is theory in some circles that most prequel jedi did not learned to use their force abilities above the basic. Look at Anakin he was stronger in the force then any other force user in existence yet his force abilities where above average only and that is with his potential that he never reached because of poor training.

He focused mostly on lightsaber combat like most other jedi it was just that he was very good at it again because of his potential. But what about the average joe jedi who does not have extraordinary talent how much would his skills suck?

In the SWTOR and KOTOR era they had better training and motivation to do that because if not they know they would die in the prequel era there was no such danger that could motivate them to have better training.

[Newyankalt]

Well there is theory in some circles that most prequel jedi did not learned to use their force abilities above the basic. Look at Anakin he was stronger in the force then any other force user in existence yet his force abilities where above average only and that is with his potential that he never reached because of poor training.

He focused mostly on lightsaber combat like most other jedi it was just that he was very good at it again because of his potential. But what about the average joe jedi who does not have extraordinary talent how much would his skills suck?

In the SWTOR and KOTOR era they had better training and motivation to do that because if not they know they would die in the prequel era there was no such danger that could motivate them to have better training.

 

It wasn't poor training that held Anakin back, it was for his own good. Anakin would have not been able to handle so much power all at once that would only make things worse then it already was for him. He was only trained in the first place because of this apparent "prophecy".

[adormitul]

It wasn't poor training that held Anakin back, it was for his own good. Anakin would have not been able to handle so much power all at once that would only make things worse then it already was for him. He was only trained in the first place because of this apparent "prophecy".

 

What there is such thing that you can not handle the power when talking about the force. What do you think it would have happened?

[Spetulhu]

Well i wouldn't call the Masters of the clone wars weak but the Order was complacent. Keep in mind when the Clone Wars broke there was a 1000 years of peace, meaning the Jedi alive never lived through a Galaxy wide war. But the Old Republic Masters on the other hand lived most of their lives in war so i would call the Old Republic masters more experienced than the PT era masters, not necessarily stronger.

 

This, really. The Jedi Order in the prequels has entered a golden age of knowledge, peace and happiness. They have the luxury of training every padawan for a long time, making sure they have all the required skills to be perfect little diplomats. The order's swordmasters have had long years to perfect their forms and any Jedi showing interest can train (almost) any sword school for as long as it takes. But few or none of the Jedi alive have seen actual conflict as in large-scale war. They know the theory but that's not the same as actually doing it. You can be well trained but inexperience will still put you at massively higher risk of death the first few times you're thrown into battle.

 

Some of the Old Republic era force users and lightsaber combatants could probably show even legends like Dooku, Mace or Yoda a few moves they either didn't know (tricks learned in real combat) or seriously consider training (due to unacceptable risks of collateral damage).

[t-darko]

Well i wouldn't call the Masters of the clone wars weak by any sense of the word, but the Order was complacent. Keep in mind when the Clone Wars broke there was a 1000 years of peace, meaning the Jedi alive never lived through a Galaxy wide war..But the Old Republic Masters on the other hand lived most of their lives in war,against Sith mind you, not roger roger droids so i would call the Old Republic masters more experienced than the PT era masters, not necessarily stronger. Also we see on Geonosis how many jedi were slain, it was merely the lack of battle experience that caused most jedi deaths, it was only because of the skill Jedi like Skywalker, Kenobi, Windu, Yoda, and a few others had that they survived during the War. If grievous fought Satele or Revan he'd be destroyed before he could pull his lightsabers out, cause there's nothing grievous is or can do that would top what they have seen, most of the clone wars era masters rarely actually participated in life or death duels with oher saber wielders, and someone like grievous with his four lightsabers is sure to intimidate the young and inexperienced,overpowering them because of it. like a previous poster said, he's a monster, but he wouldn't scare the Old republic masters, most of them anyway

 

This is a very fair point I think, if your doing a strictly EU analysis of the the Jedi order, which we're clearly doing.

To follow that theory this post is kinda spot on in a way;

Well there is theory in some circles that most prequel jedi did not learned to use their force abilities above the basic. Look at Anakin he was stronger in the force then any other force user in existence yet his force abilities where above average only and that is with his potential that he never reached because of poor training.

He focused mostly on lightsaber combat like most other jedi it was just that he was very good at it again because of his potential. But what about the average joe jedi who does not have extraordinary talent how much would his skills suck?

In the SWTOR and KOTOR era they had better training and motivation to do that because if not they know they would die in the prequel era there was no such danger that could motivate them to have better training.

 

But this raises the issue I think comes closest to the 'apparent weak common' Jedi Knight. Why you might ask, well, strictly from my point of view, you would have to instead ask; Why the hesitation to let Anakin undergo Jedi training?

 

The answer is more apparent then one might think. After the battle of Ruusan the training doctrine of the jedi order was pretty much set, - in stone! Recruit infants sensitive in the force train them AND 'never' expose them of basic sentient feelings, Sorrow, Fear, Hate, Love, Attachment and so on.

 

For the Jedi of the TOR era this was commonly known feelings and a part of everyday life, so the ability to coop with this feeling. Nomi Sunrider being the most shining example of the Jedi of old. The game we play is set in time where the new 'recruit infant doctrine' starts to see the light of day very much in a historical wake of Kyndra Draay's Jedi covenant.

 

In the PT and TCW, or the Gold Age of the Republic, the full knowledge of the Jedi of old is limited to the Jedi council or maybe just a very limited click of it(TCW, Sacrifice), which makes the statement on 'Basic Jedi's' somewhat correct. Those who we know goes above and beyond Qui-Gon and Dooku, as an example, do so in two different directions, Light and Dark. The uncertainty of which in Anakin's case makes the council hesitate to train him in his full extent. And this is the Jedi's downfall ultimately letting fear guide their judgement rather than their trust in the Force, thus they had become self serving, - as Palpatine/Sidious claims.

 

In that way this comes to pass . . .

It wasn't poor training that held Anakin back, it was for his own good. Anakin would have not been able to handle so much power all at once that would only make things worse then it already was for him. He was only trained in the first place because of this apparent "prophecy".

 

"A prophecy that misread might have been" (PT, Yoda)

 

So to the OP; Was the jedis in the the TCW an PT, 'The last of the Jedi', weaker than the 'Jedi of Old'?

In a sense of insight of the Force, and life in general - Yes. In combat effectiveness, yes they might have been, depending on the foe.

On the whole I'd have to go with an "Yes"

[PadsterPwns]

Well i wouldn't call the Masters of the clone wars weak by any sense of the word, but the Order was complacent. Keep in mind when the Clone Wars broke there was a 1000 years of peace, meaning the Jedi alive never lived through a Galaxy wide war..But the Old Republic Masters on the other hand lived most of their lives in war,against Sith mind you, not roger roger droids so i would call the Old Republic masters more experienced than the PT era masters, not necessarily stronger. Also we see on Geonosis how many jedi were slain, it was merely the lack of battle experience that caused most jedi deaths, it was only because of the skill Jedi like Skywalker, Kenobi, Windu, Yoda, and a few others had that they survived during the War. If grievous fought Satele or Revan he'd be destroyed before he could pull his lightsabers out, cause there's nothing grievous is or can do that would top what they have seen, most of the clone wars era masters rarely actually participated in life or death duels with oher saber wielders, and someone like grievous with his four lightsabers is sure to intimidate the young and inexperienced,overpowering them because of it. like a previous poster said, he's a monster, but he wouldn't scare the Old republic masters, most of them anyway

I don't think we can really call the PT order complacent (apart from failing to find Sidious but that's Sidious) and the fact that so many Jedi survived the Clone Wars is actually a testament to the strength of the PT Jedi. My reasoning for this is because Sidious himself literally called the Clone Wars "The perfect Jedi trap", as I mentioned earlier most Jedi weren't killed because they weren't skilled or powerful enough, they were killed because of the sheer amount of droids they were up against and this is why the logic of "OR Jedi are stronger because they fought Sith" fails as they never fought hundreds of Sith at the same time. What I'm saying is that most of the deaths of CW Jedi was due to swarm warfare, not being weaker than their adversaries. Something else that people tend to overlook is that Yoda was training these generations specifically for when the Sith resurfaced, with the Jedi trials including having to keep up sparring with a Battlemaster, or even the Grand Master, for hours.

 

The part you said about Grievous is true, if Grievous isn't stood right in front of them they would crush him but you're talking about Grand Master Satele Shan and Revan, not ordinary OR Jedi. As for saying Grievous wouldn't scare OR Masters, I think that depends on the scenario, if they were in the situation of Mundi, Ti and company I would bet you £5 that at least two of the group would be terrified. Another thing about Grievous is that while fear factor is definitely one of his strong points, he is an absolute monster in combat, with very few PT Masters able to compete with him due to his insanely unorthodox combat style and honestly the OR Masters, while impressive, would suffer the exact same fate as many Jedi who challenged Grievous.

[adormitul]

I don't think we can really call the PT order complacent (apart from failing to find Sidious but that's Sidious) and the fact that so many Jedi survived the Clone Wars is actually a testament to the strength of the PT Jedi. My reasoning for this is because Sidious himself literally called the Clone Wars "The perfect Jedi trap", as I mentioned earlier most Jedi weren't killed because they weren't skilled or powerful enough, they were killed because of the sheer amount of droids they were up against and this is why the logic of "OR Jedi are stronger because they fought Sith" fails as they never fought hundreds of Sith at the same time. What I'm saying is that most of the deaths of CW Jedi was due to swarm warfare, not being weaker than their adversaries. Something else that people tend to overlook is that Yoda was training these generations specifically for when the Sith resurfaced, with the Jedi trials including having to keep up sparring with a Battlemaster, or even the Grand Master, for hours.

 

The part you said about Grievous is true, if Grievous isn't stood right in front of them they would crush him but you're talking about Grand Master Satele Shan and Revan, not ordinary OR Jedi. As for saying Grievous wouldn't scare OR Masters, I think that depends on the scenario, if they were in the situation of Mundi, Ti and company I would bet you £5 that at least two of the group would be terrified. Another thing about Grievous is that while fear factor is definitely one of his strong points, he is an absolute monster in combat, with very few PT Masters able to compete with him due to his insanely unorthodox combat style and honestly the OR Masters, while impressive, would suffer the exact same fate as many Jedi who challenged Grievous.

 

20 something jedi Grevious killed the only other non force user who killed more was the BH and even that was hard to believe. The point still stands they did not used the force to kill him. They could have done that as its very efficient look at how Tano managed if she used the force. Look how Windu managed as he really damaged his internal organs with it.

Why don't they use the force well because they can't they have not been trained to do that. Unless you are Anakin you will will not become stronger then the Jedi of old.

[PadsterPwns]

20 something jedi Grevious killed the only other non force user who killed more was the BH and even that was hard to believe. The point still stands they did not used the force to kill him. They could have done that as its very efficient look at how Tano managed if she used the force. Look how Windu managed as he really damaged his internal organs with it.

Why don't they use the force well because they can't they have not been trained to do that. Unless you are Anakin you will will not become stronger then the Jedi of old.

To be fair Grievous is heralded as one of the greatest Jedi killers of all time, only second to Vader IIRC. As far as asking why they didn't use the Force, as I put before it's mostly Jedi restraint and overconfidence. Think about it, your typical Jedi Master isn't like Windu who's OK with straight up crushing him due to his spiritual balance, a typical Jedi is going to try and end it without resorting to brutally killing him, for example they might try and disarm him. We both know that it's basically suicide trying to do that to Grievous unless you're very talented with a lightsaber but a regular Jedi likely doesn't. Yoda even says that some Jedi are becoming too overconfident and arrogant, he even says that it applies to most Jedi of the time regardless of age. As for saying that unless you're Anakin you won't become stronger than the old masters, then the likes of Kenobi, Plo Koon, Kit Fisto and Shaak Ti would beg to differ.

[Rhyltran]

This, really. The Jedi Order in the prequels has entered a golden age of knowledge, peace and happiness. They have the luxury of training every padawan for a long time, making sure they have all the required skills to be perfect little diplomats. The order's swordmasters have had long years to perfect their forms and any Jedi showing interest can train (almost) any sword school for as long as it takes. But few or none of the Jedi alive have seen actual conflict as in large-scale war. They know the theory but that's not the same as actually doing it. You can be well trained but inexperience will still put you at massively higher risk of death the first few times you're thrown into battle.

 

Some of the Old Republic era force users and lightsaber combatants could probably show even legends like Dooku, Mace or Yoda a few moves they either didn't know (tricks learned in real combat) or seriously consider training (due to unacceptable risks of collateral damage).

 

Those "Tricks" they would teach Yoda and them learned from real combat would have been recorded in the holocrons which Yoda and them had access to anyway. Plus once the clone wars occurred they did get experience.

[PadsterPwns]

Those "Tricks" they would teach Yoda and them learned from real combat would have been recorded in the holocrons which Yoda and them had access to anyway. Plus once the clone wars occurred they did get experience.

 

I genuinely think that people underestimate how tough the Clone Wars were, I personally feel it's a testament to the PT Order's strength that so many survived it.

[cs_zoltan]

I genuinely think that people underestimate how tough the Clone Wars were, I personally feel it's a testament to the PT Order's strength that so many survived it.

 

The Clone Wars is called the biggest war the galaxy has ever seen.

[adormitul]

To be fair Grievous is heralded as one of the greatest Jedi killers of all time, only second to Vader IIRC. As far as asking why they didn't use the Force, as I put before it's mostly Jedi restraint and overconfidence. Think about it, your typical Jedi Master isn't like Windu who's OK with straight up crushing him due to his spiritual balance, a typical Jedi is going to try and end it without resorting to brutally killing him, for example they might try and disarm him. We both know that it's basically suicide trying to do that to Grievous unless you're very talented with a lightsaber but a regular Jedi likely doesn't. Yoda even says that some Jedi are becoming too overconfident and arrogant, he even says that it applies to most Jedi of the time regardless of age. As for saying that unless you're Anakin you won't become stronger than the old masters, then the likes of Kenobi, Plo Koon, Kit Fisto and Shaak Ti would beg to differ.

 

Really well Kenobi until the last battle he did not even considered to use the force to defeat Grevious and almost lost his life against him , Plo Koon did that guy did anything of worth?

Shaak Ti well she certainly died fast even with a army by her side and a couple of rankors. Why is she so praised she sent a army after her assassin they where all killed she fought with a giant beast by her side with huge tentacles and several force sensitive cultists and she still lost and died. She was a awful Jedi that did not played fair and had awful skills.

Edited December 5, 2015 by adormitul

[PadsterPwns]

The Clone Wars is called the biggest war the galaxy has ever seen.

 

I thought it had been but I couldn't remember if that was something I'd seen on wookie so I didn't cite it lol.

[PadsterPwns]

Really well Kenobi until the last battle he did not even considered to use the force to defeat Grevious and amlsmot lost his life against him , Plo Koon did that guy did anything of worth?

Shaak Ti well she certainly died fast even with a army by her side and a couple of rankors. Why is she so praised she sent a army after he assassin they where all killed she fought with a giant beast by her side with huge tentacles and several force sensitive cultists and she still lost and died. She was a awful Jedi that did not played fair and had awful skills.

 

I'll let Zoltan handle the Ti part.

 

As for Kenobi, he has used the Force against him before but Grievous is insanely durable, he was able to survive a starship explosion unharmed, so simply using a Force attack won't do much. As for Plo Koon, he stalemated Ventress with a broken arm and has accolades that put him as one of the best duelists and most powerful Force users in the entire history of the Jedi. In addition Koon was considered a challenge for Darth Maul BY Darth Maul and he was pretty much only second to Anakin in his use of Form V.

Edited December 5, 2015 by PadsterPwns

[Spetulhu]

Those "Tricks" they would teach Yoda and them learned from real combat would have been recorded in the holocrons which Yoda and them had access to anyway. Plus once the clone wars occurred they did get experience.

 

Well, I did also mention moves considered too risky to practice in peacetime. Learning something from a holocron - and even trying it in training - is still a lot different than actually using it. Granted, as time went by and surviving Jedi got experience they were certainly better off for it.

 

But surely many were initially lost because their peacetime training couldn't prepare them for war? It's not easy to take life and Jedi were taught to avoid it if possible, but the droid armies and living beings like clones had no qualms about aiming for a kill.

[adormitul]

I'll let Zoltan handle the Ti part.

 

As for Kenobi, he has used the Force against him before but Grievous is insanely durable, he was able to survive a starship explosion unharmed, so simply using a Force attack won't do much. As for Plo Koon, he stalemated Ventress with a broken arm and has accolades that put him as one of the best duelists and most powerful Force users in the entire history of the Jedi. In addition Koon was considered a challenge for Darth Maul BY Darth Maul and he was pretty much only second to Anakin in his use of Form V.

 

The problem with the accolades is that one of the best might mean one the top 1000 jedi you see the issue it does not mean a lot but saying the best duelist in jedi history means something or second only to x and y this is a praising accolade.

And yeah so what if Maul form v was second only to Anakin it does not mean a lot because its challenge big deal. For example the 1'st ranked best boxer in the world at the heavy category will still have challenge with the 100't ranked boxer in the world.

But I will give this he was still impressive but also not part of the average non master and non council jedi that made the majority. There where thousands of Jedi can anyone tell me of 10 non council jedi that where impressive?

Edited December 5, 2015 by adormitul

[Jarons]

Really well Kenobi until the last battle he did not even considered to use the force to defeat Grevious and almost lost his life against him , Plo Koon did that guy did anything of worth?

Shaak Ti well she certainly died fast even with a army by her side and a couple of rankors. Why is she so praised she sent a army after her assassin they where all killed she fought with a giant beast by her side with huge tentacles and several force sensitive cultists and she still lost and died. She was a awful Jedi that did not played fair and had awful skills.

You really know nothing than if you have to ask if Plo join did anything.Read this respect thread and learn something.Respect the mighty Kel Dor.

[cs_zoltan]

I'll let Zoltan handle the Ti part.

 

I don't indulge delirious fantasies.

[adormitul]

You really know nothing than if you have to ask if Plo join did anything.Read this respect thread and learn something.Respect the mighty Kel Dor.

 

Yeah I saw but he is also a council member not a average joe jedi. By the way is there a jedi called Joe?

Also I admitted that he is impressive.

Edited December 5, 2015 by adormitul

[Kaedusz]

The Clone Wars is called the biggest war the galaxy has ever seen.

 

Yea, too bad the ones fighting on both sides are not real people.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Kaedusz

[PadsterPwns]

The problem with the accolades is that one of the best might mean one the top 1000 jedi you see the issue it does not mean a lot but saying the best duelist in jedi history means something or second only to x and y this is a praising accolade.

And yeah so what if Maul form v was second only to Anakin it does not mean a lot because its challenge big deal. For example the 1'st ranked best boxer in the world at the heavy category will still have challenge with the 100't ranked boxer in the world.

But I will give this he was still impressive but also not part of the average non master and non council jedi that made the majority. There where thousands of Jedi can anyone tell me of 10 non council jedi that where impressive?

 

Bultar Swan, K'Kruhk, Quinlan Vos, A'Sharad Hett, Fay, Nahdar Vebb, Krell, Ima-Gun Di, Aayla Secura and Rahm Kota. These are the ones I would put first, though there are likely quite a few others that are better than these.

[Newyankalt]

What there is such thing that you can not handle the power when talking about the force. What do you think it would have happened?

 

Play the Sith Inquisitor and go look at Zash...

[Newyankalt]

Yea, too bad the ones fighting on both sides are not real people.

 

Also seems like the most pointless since everything happens perfectly somehow for Palpatine to create the Empire. If the Jedi had any sense at all they probably would have been able to put things together earlier.

[ConVallian]

Also seems like the most pointless since everything happens perfectly somehow for Palpatine to create the Empire. If the Jedi had any sense at all they probably would have been able to put things together earlier.

 

i think yoda in the back of his mind knew it was a plot just think he didn't know the who and when.