Am I missing something with Tactical FPs?

[meleti]

I queue up for one, it matches 4 DPS, I figure the game is allowing that match so it must work.

 

Nope. The easy pulls nearly kill everyone, require CC, and we have to take time to rest afterwards. The hard pulls kill everyone outright, so we have to keep dying to progress.

 

Bosses are a joke, but who cares since 95% of the time is spent clearing trash.

 

Is this really the sort of experience I'm supposed to have here? Makes me want to never queue a FP again.

[Vankris]

don't have that problem at all.

 

make sure to focus weakest enemy first, then work your way up to the strongest. The idea is to reduce incoming DPS fast. if you have incapacitating ability like stun, choke or anything, use it.

 

Often, it's better to single target DPS to melt enemy pack fast to a manageable size, rather than just AOE. With AOE, enemy just live to long and some DPS players might just die from having the aggro of the full pack because there AOE is stronger

 

Also, even DPS have potent defensive cooldown, and can tank for a limited time, never hesitate to use a defensive cooldown.

 

Finally, if you have the aggro and all your defensive move are on cooldown, use an aggro drop, and let the mob go to another DPS with higher health.

[Arunas]

Is this really the sort of experience I'm supposed to have here? Makes me want to never queue a FP again.

 

And you should not, why do something frustrating and pointless when you could be doing something else. There is no reason to do the FPs at all if you have seen the story.

[meleti]

don't have that problem at all.

 

make sure to focus weakest enemy first, then work your way up to the strongest. The idea is to reduce incoming DPS fast. if you have incapacitating ability like stun, choke or anything, use it.

 

Often, it's better to single target DPS to melt enemy pack fast to a manageable size, rather than just AOE. With AOE, enemy just live to long and some DPS players might just die from having the aggro of the full pack because there AOE is stronger

 

Also, even DPS have potent defensive cooldown, and can tank for a limited time, never hesitate to use a defensive cooldown.

 

Finally, if you have the aggro and all your defensive move are on cooldown, use an aggro drop, and let the mob go to another DPS with higher health.

 

None of this helps. I'm an experienced MMO player, know how to do flashpoints, and even playing optimally it's quite rough unless you get a good group of players and a good group composition. I was CCing, selecting targets, and using my cooldowns about as well as possible. Still was a slog to get anything done with 4 DPS.

Edited November 29, 2015 by meleti

[Yorioko]

None of this helps. I'm an experienced MMO player, know how to do flashpoints, and even playing optimally it's quite rough unless you get a good group of players and a good group composition. I was CCing, selecting targets, and using my cooldowns about as well as possible. Still was a slog to get anything done with 4 DPS.

 

I have necountered this for tacticals........boss fights have kolto stations that refill frequently and is there for the grups like 4 dps.

 

This is the thing about tacticals.......hell even the name suggest it.....TACTICS, move "slow" pick Your targets and there should not be a problem

[meleti]

I have necountered this for tacticals........boss fights have kolto stations that refill frequently and is there for the grups like 4 dps.

 

This is the thing about tacticals.......hell even the name suggest it.....TACTICS, move "slow" pick Your targets and there should not be a problem

I specifically mentioned that the trouble was trash pulls, not the bosses. And yes, taking it slow and having multiple people die on many/most pulls does seem to be the way to go.

[GavinBail]

I wish there was something you were missing, but no the trash in the tactical FPs are ridiculously overturned. I don't mind any of the boss fights, they require more tactics than the previous TFPs, but now that I've adjusted it is just fine, but man, the trash is too powerful. You shouldn't need to pop Defensive Cooldowns for random trash pulls, if you need to wait for them to reset it takes for freaking ever. The tough part of the FP should be the bosses, you shouldn't be in a situation where you feel more proud about surviving THE PULL from Hammer Station more than the boss.

[Yorioko]

I specifically mentioned that the trouble was trash pulls, not the bosses. And yes, taking it slow and having multiple people die on many/most pulls does seem to be the way to go.

 

as I said pick Your targets.

Pulling sure..........you risk at times pulling a Group of mobs........that kills you.

 

Again PICK Your fights, it is NOT a time race..........it is ALL about tactics.

[Rhazesx]

In my experience with group finder 9 out of 10 groups you have to CC, Tank, Heal, Click all the objectives all by yourself and you have to keep the other 3 alive in the process by clicking the kolto stations for them.

[thewitchdoctor]

In my experience with group finder 9 out of 10 groups you have to CC, Tank, Heal, Click all the objectives all by yourself and you have to keep the other 3 alive in the process by clicking the kolto stations for them.

 

THAT, I think, is the real issue.

 

Too few people realise that in 4.0, 'tactical' FPs are the 'new' story mode FPs. In other words, the opposite of KDY.

 

Yes, a few encounters could be tuned better. No doubt.

 

But I think Bioware's big mistake was to continue calling them 'tactical.' Too many people associate that in SWTOR as carte blanche to herp-a-derp. If they called them 'story mode' that may have gone some way in making people clue in to the fact that these aren't zergable (yet).

[Saelinne]

I queue up for one, it matches 4 DPS, I figure the game is allowing that match so it must work.

 

Nope. The easy pulls nearly kill everyone, require CC, and we have to take time to rest afterwards. The hard pulls kill everyone outright, so we have to keep dying to progress.

 

Bosses are a joke, but who cares since 95% of the time is spent clearing trash.

 

Is this really the sort of experience I'm supposed to have here? Makes me want to never queue a FP again.

 

First my hat off to you for your thread title...it is refreshing to see people that admit the fault might be in them and not blame something else if they...don't do so good....

 

...as for my advice: don't play the FP as you would have an old SM one....apart from actually using CC (which you apparently do...but do they remind for the duration or are they interrupted by aoe?) and your DCD....spread the damage...don't let any one person tank all (even if he/she is a tank....unless you have healer), but take one (or more if you can take the damage) mob and then focus on the mob the other dps is killing so you clear the mobs faster. 2 (or 4 if you count the other faction classes) still have taunt even if they choose dps AC...let them control the field in case someone is dying. 2/4 classes have heals even if dps role. 2 classes have CC with no cool down (for droids only) (or was it very short?...not sure).....

....really all classes have alot of abilities to save the day it's just that before 4.0 dps just didn't care. The only people that did were the tanks and healers...

 

....oh and the advice someone give to avoid aoe is pretty good because if you don't have tank with aoe taunt or party that doesn't act fast enough (and we are talking about pugs....so assume you don't) the mobs are likely to target you and you are not likely to survive being focused by many mobs as dps:)

(which remind me cover of the agents/smugglers give you very nice defense against white damage...ofcourse you will probably get killed by special abilities still....if you don't move to attack it gives you defense that is)

...if you have to use DCD every battle you are doing something wrong (and I am including tanks here), but once a blue moon...even tanks might be forced to use one.....nothing bad with that...

 

........oh and interrupts are not only for bosses don't forget:) Some of the non bosses have nasty specials that if you interrupt you can save yourself/someone else alot of damage...

Edited December 1, 2015 by Saelinne

[meleti]

as I said pick Your targets.

Pulling sure..........you risk at times pulling a Group of mobs........that kills you.

 

Again PICK Your fights, it is NOT a time race..........it is ALL about tactics.

 

And as I've already said, I was doing all of this already. Can you read?

 

What I'm trying to wrap my head around is how this content is intended to be completed by a 4 man group without any particular role requirements. I've done the obvious - pull slowly, CC and focus fire, use cooldowns properly - and with a bad group composition (such as 4 DPS) the FP is still extremely slow and people tend to die, a lot.

 

So I was wondering if I was missing something else I needed to do. Seems not. Either the random FPs I got were extremely difficult compared to the others, or I should avoid doing FPs where I cannot get a proper group composition.

Edited December 1, 2015 by meleti

[SpinForbidden]

My experience with the new Tactical FP is perhaps a little unusual; I really like the change. In particular I like how rapidly the queues pop and the wide variety of player combinations that arise. It's like a box of chocolates...

Mind you, since 4.0 hit I've been running PUG TFPs with a relatively high-level healing toon. I like healing, and with three DPS there's plenty to go around. The troubles the PUGs I've participated in have had, at least outside of Blood Hunt, have been due to player-error with the mechanics, not in group composition.

I would never suggest that the OP should feel compelled to play a healer, but in answer to the original question of the thread, "Am I missing something with Tactical FPs", if the OP had any latent desire to role a healer, a different TFP experience might result.

[shadowflit]

What I'm trying to wrap my head around is how this content is intended to be completed by a 4 man group without any particular role requirements. I've done the obvious - pull slowly, CC and focus fire, use cooldowns properly - and with a bad group composition (such as 4 DPS) the FP is still extremely slow and people tend to die, a lot.

I don't think you're missing anything. I did one tactical FP, and I don't recall whether we had a tank or just a taunt, but I was healing. And it was a lot of work to heal - not at all like the tactical experience I remembered (KDY). Also, the final boss (Taral V) had a cleanse mechanic. Do Kolto stations cleanse? Otherwise I think it might be mechanically impossible for some compositions to clear.

 

The tactical FPs definitely do not feel like they were sufficiently tuned to handle all compositions. But I'm also not sure how they can be without adaptable scaling. If a healer is not necessary with 4 dps, then bringing a healer and 3 dps would be boring for the healer (little to do) and the dps (don't need to worry as much about balancing the damage, cc).

Edited December 1, 2015 by shadowflit

[thewitchdoctor]

What I'm trying to wrap my head around is how this content is intended to be completed by a 4 man group without any particular role requirements.

 

Whilst it is true there are no role requirements, that just means group finder won't wait for 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 DPS to form a group. Its the first 4 to the door who get a ticket together.

 

However, there are requirements for people to assume the roles once you start.

 

Tank: one of the DPS is going to be better than the others, meaning, they will have majority of the aggro. They are now, by default, the tank. Any DPS who plays solo without a tank companion should have some idea of what happens next. If there is a healer or someone who can off-heal, this is the player they should pay attention to. This player should try and be 'tanky' and pull smartly, put their back to a wall, position themself near a kolto, whatever. Again, if you play solo without a tank companion (or even with one, frankly), this should not be terribly new. If this player is taking too much damage and receiving no heals, they can use an aggro dump to let the next-highest DPS take over for a spell. If they are an assassin, shadow, jugg, guardian, PT or vanguard, they could swap to their tank stance or charge even if they don't have any tank gear.

 

Heals: its kolto, cooldowns, and medpacs. However, if a player has off-heals, they should use them. If such a player wants to do a flashpoint then they should be ready to use all their skills. And since sorcerers, sages, commandos, mercenaries, scoundrels and operatives, regardless of spec, all have some degree of healing skills, guess what: they should expect to use them. Yes, yes, yes, you didn't spec healer. But you chose a class that has offheals and have decided to do a tactical flashpoint. You want to quit, wipe, or use everything on your toolbar? Its one of the three.

 

DPS: pretty simple. Even if the party is all healers or all tanks or a combination thereof, anyone can pewpew. If you are the highest DPS, guess what? You are tanking. If you have offheals, guess what? You should use them. If you are ranged, sit down next to a kolto station and use it on cooldown. Yes, the heal effect is best on the one who clicks it. So what. Your tank isn't a tank so he is probably busy as hell. Half the charge is better than none of the charge and unless all 4 of you are autoattacking only, there is no enrage timer so tight that the interrupt in your rotation will cause a wipe.

 

Everyone: use a cleanse. If you see your health is falling, look for a debuff ... if you have one, use your cleanse. Most classes have one. It may not be the right one, you may just be SOL, but if it works, you just survived that much longer. Use CC. Respect the CC. Don't use knockback like its the only skill on your toolbar. If you aren't a properly specced sage or sorcerer, then you really have no need to knock the mobs all around out of AOE or away from the melee DPS who is trying to tank for you. Stealth CC is amazing! If you see channeled skills by the boss, interrupt them!

 

All that said ...

 

Yes, some combinations of low level new players may just be hosed. That's a consequence of this setup. Yes, some of the encounters could probably be tuned down a bit. Its not like they drop the best loot anyways.

 

However, for the majority of compositions and players, these really are not that hard. It just takes some basic coordination, willingness to work together, use all your skills and not zerg through it.

 

Beyond all this, if you have a specific question about a specific encounter in a specific flashpoint, that is something we may be able to help with. If so, post the FP, the encounter and most importantly, your class and level (and those of your team if you recall).

 

Good luck.

Edited December 2, 2015 by thewitchdoctor

[thewitchdoctor]

So, I just did a TFP for fun.

 

Granted, it was Korriban, so, one of the easier ones. But it was 4 DPS, 2 of us at 65, 1 in the mid-30s and 1 in the mid-20s.

 

One of the lowbies was a Guardian, the other a Shadow. The Shadow mentioned (s)he had never done the FP before.

 

Things I saw that made me think of this thread ...

 

1. The Guardian switched to Soresu and tanked.

 

2. The Shadow made it part of her roatation to click kolto stations. She also stealth CC'd the one 'tough' pull.

 

All in all, it was a breeze. (Yes, it is one of the easier ones). If only the rewards were worth it. Maybe if instead of a 208 piece you could choose either the drop or some companion gifts or jawa junk. Oh well.

[GalacticKegger]

I queue up for one, it matches 4 DPS, I figure the game is allowing that match so it must work.

 

Nope. The easy pulls nearly kill everyone, require CC, and we have to take time to rest afterwards. The hard pulls kill everyone outright, so we have to keep dying to progress.

 

Bosses are a joke, but who cares since 95% of the time is spent clearing trash.

 

Is this really the sort of experience I'm supposed to have here? Makes me want to never queue a FP again.

Flashpoints used to be a great way to test and hone one's character playing and companion microing skills. My wife & I would level through class stories, planet stories and planet heroics in preparation for a planet's flashpoint. This was a great way to set up for the next planet. If we were undergeared for a flashpoint we would simply go to the next planet, make a couple levels, improve and tweak our and our companion's gear, then go back until we made it through. There was a sense of accomplishment there as we grew into our characters, learning their class & build strengths & weaknesses while progressing through the game. Flashpoints essentially became a rite of passage between planets.

 

Kiss all of that goodbye. Leveling through flashpoints has become the antithesis of progressively learning the game.

 

My wife & I brought two RL friends into the game three weeks ago (cool friend referral mounts btw). We four took turns leveling different classes to fleet until we had options. We were all level 14 when we got to fleet. From there we picked our fab four (tank, heals, melee dps & ranged dps) of different classes and started the leveling process. This was all our friends' first time playing the game, and our first time leveling lowbies since before the expansion.

 

As has been tradition we did Black Talon right after settling into our first set of customs on the way to Dromund Kaas. Solo Mode or Tactical Mode ... hmmm. Remembering leveling through Rishi, we went Solo Mode. It may as well have been group play for the KotFE storyline, because with 4 character's worth of Jeezus Droids no one had a chance to do anything but watch. The challenge was to get an attack in before the droids cleared everything.

 

By the time we finished BT we were all level 17, so we queued for Hammer Station. Our only choice was tactical, so tactical we went. Well ... scratch tactical flashpoints off the list of possible lowbie leveling chieves as we didn't stand a chance. We made it through the hangar, then through the right-turn hallway and through the mobs at the other end. From there we were little more than flashpaper as we lacked the ability selection and bolstered power to keep up.

 

We all exited area in search of a solo mode option for Hammer Station so our new player friends could at least see the content. Nope, no solo mode. So I looked it up to see what I was missing. The 4.0 early access notes don't list a solo mode flashpoint between Black Talon and Boarding Party (a level 29 flashpoint), with everything in between listed as a tactical.

 

Thus which flashpoints we as players (2 Founders and 2 newbs) can add to our PvE learn while you level experience is ... squat. There is nothing between level 10's Black Talon & level 29's Boarding Party. And if BP's solo mode is anything like BT's was, the Jeezus Droids will bogart everything again. So all the new players will learn is that their CDs aren't quick enough to keep up.

 

So now, with KotFE eliminating our ability to level up together through its story, we are questioning whether or not bringing up more alts in this new system is even worth it. If our friends enjoy their class stories, then we'll continue playing together. If not, then we'll be looking for something else to do.

 

Forced level sync killed level-appropriate leveling flashpoints for us. Solo mode is brain dead easy, and tactical mode is impossible unless one has a high level main or two to help. The ones I really feel sorry for though are all the new players who've answered Disney's 'The Force Awakens' siren call and are looking to experience FPs as they level together. They will either get bored in solo mode or relentlessly experience having their asses handed to them in tactical mode.

 

The old flashpoint system was the happy medium, which I fear is gone for good. Even if it could be brought back as an option, I doubt that Bioware would do so. They keep their disdain for owning up to mistakes well guarded.

 

At least after multiple wipes in Hammer Station we weren't charged for repairs.

Edited December 2, 2015 by GalacticKegger

[thewitchdoctor]

We were all level 14 when we got to fleet. From there we picked our fab four (tank, heals, melee dps & ranged dps) of different classes and started the leveling process.

 

By the time we finished BT we were all level 17, so we queued for Hammer Station. Our only choice was tactical, so tactical we went. Well ... scratch tactical flashpoints off the list of possible lowbie leveling chieves as we didn't stand a chance. We made it through the hangar, then through the right-turn hallway and through the mobs at the other end. From there we were little more than flashpaper as we lacked the ability selection and bolstered power to keep up.

 

OK, so, you were a trinity and attempted HS. From what I gather, you made it to the droid boss.

 

The trick there is the debuff the droid puts on whomever is tanking him. It stacks up to 10 and must be cleansed at about 5 stacks in order to remain managable for the healer.

 

But, at level 17, you almost assuredly don't have a cleanse. Most healers get it at about the early 20s.

 

This has been a known issue in this FP's mechanics since launch, by the way. You have always been able to get the FP before the healer may have gotten their cleanse.

 

But it was doable prior to 4.0. (I have done so on a scoundrel and operative - it was damn near impossible, but I did it).

 

If you try again - you'd have cleanse by now, tho - the healer needs to save all resources for that burn with the debuff. 10 stacks is a PIA, period. The healer should use kolto station for heals outside the burn and one of the DPS could have clicked another kolto to help out.

 

But, maybe you tried that. This scenario could very well be one of those where the new model is overtuned.

 

Good luck.

[GalacticKegger]

OK, so, you were a trinity and attempted HS. From what I gather, you made it to the droid boss.

 

The trick there is the debuff the droid puts on whomever is tanking him. It stacks up to 10 and must be cleansed at about 5 stacks in order to remain managable for the healer.

 

But, at level 17, you almost assuredly don't have a cleanse. Most healers get it at about the early 20s.

 

This has been a known issue in this FP's mechanics since launch, by the way. You have always been able to get the FP before the healer may have gotten their cleanse.

 

But it was doable prior to 4.0. (I have done so on a scoundrel and operative - it was damn near impossible, but I did it).

 

If you try again - you'd have cleanse by now, tho - the healer needs to save all resources for that burn with the debuff. 10 stacks is a PIA, period. The healer should use kolto station for heals outside the burn and one of the DPS could have clicked another kolto to help out.

 

But, maybe you tried that. This scenario could very well be one of those where the new model is overtuned.

 

Good luck.

Thank you for replying. We were all in customs with appropriately spec'd & crafted blue (item rating 54) mods. We never made it to the droid boss as we were stopped in our tracks by that first large "gear check" mob ... the one camping the right handed corner with 2 large droids and several smaller ones. Level appropriate it was a fair fight prior to 4.0 when the FPs weren't level sync'd. The fights leading up to that mob were a handful and we almost wiped twice.

 

We gave it five attempts and eventually tried pulling them back into the hallway. Our sole CC was an assassin's Whirlwind that would only last 6 seconds. Everyone was behind me while I taunted the other large droid (the one that wasn't CC'd) then ducked inside the hallway right as Whirlwind went up. By the time the mobs appeared around the corner the CC had already expired. Everything came. No one in the party fired a shot until the mobs appeared so as to not break the CC.

 

My jugg tank took 3 hits and dropped: even in Soresu form, with all party buffs up, a level 16 fort stim up, Sabre Ward up, a bubble up, spam heals and a last-ditch blue level 16 medpac after the 2nd hit. It wasn't close.

Edited December 3, 2015 by GalacticKegger

[thewitchdoctor]

Yeah, OK. With so little CC available, yeah, you'd be relying on 'brute force.' Best you could do is try to kill one, die; kill one, die; til you had them all and that's no fun.

 

Well, I hear ya. That seems to be a fight that needs to be tuned.

 

I'd hate to see the brackets removed as overall it helps queue times. But something needs to be done.

 

This is an idea that adds to one I read off Reddit: along with bolster, use that fancy new toolbar and give different skills depending on what bracket the player's level falls in. So, for you guys, everyone gets a CC perhaps. Or a better heal or something.

Edited December 3, 2015 by thewitchdoctor

[DawnAskham]

Yeah, OK. With so little CC available, yeah, you'd be relying on 'brute force.' Best you could do is try to kill one, die; kill one, die; til you had them all and that's no fun.

 

Well, I hear ya. That seems to be a fight that needs to be tuned.

 

I'd hate to see the brackets removed as overall it helps queue times. But something needs to be done.

 

This is an idea that adds to one I read off Reddit: along with bolster, use that fancy new toolbar and give different skills depending on what bracket the player's level falls in. So, for you guys, everyone gets a CC perhaps. Or a better heal or something.

 

A new ability bar wouldn't be bad - but I think it may be more difficult to set up as well as it may be confusing to newer players to just have a bunch of abilities added when they zone into an instance.

 

Personally, I think they need to dump some of the mechanics like dots that needs a cleanse, drop trash damage and / or thin out some of the trash packs, and set the bolster higher and overweight it for lowbies (lowbies should bolster to higher base stats and DR than natural 65sto compensate for all the missing abilities).

Edited December 3, 2015 by DawnAskham

[GalacticKegger]

Yeah, OK. With so little CC available, yeah, you'd be relying on 'brute force.' Best you could do is try to kill one, die; kill one, die; til you had them all and that's no fun.

 

Well, I hear ya. That seems to be a fight that needs to be tuned.

 

I'd hate to see the brackets removed as overall it helps queue times. But something needs to be done.

 

This is an idea that adds to one I read off Reddit: along with bolster, use that fancy new toolbar and give different skills depending on what bracket the player's level falls in. So, for you guys, everyone gets a CC perhaps. Or a better heal or something.

We went the focus fire route and actually came close to dropping one of the small droids.

 

And there wouldn't be a need to remove any brackets. A simple non-modded fix imho might be to add back an unsync'd "legacy mode" as a mode select option. I mean, FPs are calibrated to raw references that already exist and get tuned on the back end, right? Why not take a snapshot of those raw references and normalize the snapshot to level-range applicable item rating references as defaults for the legacy mode. Sync'd mode would simply adjust player level and item ratings off of these normalized legacy mode references. This could apply to HMs and OPs as well.

 

That would put the onus of balancing the party and gearing for legacy mode flashpoints & HMs squarely on the player - which is exactly what the proponents of bringing the old system back want. The crystal vendors on fleet are already stocked with min/max modification options to support this.

 

All reference checks and adjustments for both legacy mode and level sync mode would occur during the opening cinematic while the player's computer fights the loading screen boss - just like they do now.

 

Bringing back the ability to gear companions would be great for this too, and would treat companion level and item ratings for both legacy and level sync'd modes identically to player level and item ratings. Players who like the new comp system and don't want to deal with gearing companions wouldn't have to worry about it as the current auto-adjusted companion level & item rating system could be used in place of the real things. A digital check up front during instance load would flip that switch. For solo mode play just add Jeezus Droids and stir.

 

Both proponents and opponents of level sync would get to play the way they want. Both proponents and opponents of gearing companions would get to play the way they want.

 

Doable? Who knows. Enough remnants of the old system's code would have to still be in place (or at least archived) for this to work, and one would hope they didn't ****can everything. If they did then flashpoint tuning is the least of our worries.

Edited December 3, 2015 by GalacticKegger