Companion Change Feedback

[Ghisallo]

Wait for Tuesday. You'll see.

 

Yep and I am fairly certain some people will still not be happy.

[Ghisallo]

Actually no a lot of "people" are asking for reverse patch if you pay attention to a lot of the pages and read I'm not the only who thinks the buff won't be a good thing either some have made comments of maybe a "10%" raise with buffs. Why is it so wrong that people want to be independent?

 

You are correct, the problem is more than a few here and on other threads have made it clear that, for them, anything short of a full reversion is unacceptable. Half the reason this debacle grew as quickly as it did is because this particular camp created a hypoerbolic crap storm founded in the FALSE claim that healing was so broken the content was now impossible. So they will attempt to continue the crap storm without a full reversion. I predict an ugly Thanksgiving holiday on the forums.

[Gorrdan]

You are correct, the problem is more than a few here and on other threads have made it clear that, for them, anything short of a full reversion is unacceptable. Half the reason this debacle grew as quickly as it did is because this particular camp created a hypoerbolic crap storm founded in the FALSE claim that healing was so broken the content was now impossible. So they will attempt to continue the crap storm without a full reversion. I predict an ugly Thanksgiving holiday on the forums.

 

On top of that the statement by Eric that players should be able to solo any 2+ heroic with their comp ins't helping either since as of now it is not true. Especially for those who are low level with low level influence companions.

[Lord_Sleepy]

What drives me nuts is this. People defeat themselves in this game and then, imo, look for disingenuous excuses.

 

Example a few people were complaining about raiders. SM raiding in this game is something, quite literally, anyone can do. It is not hard in the least. Some probably just assume it is "work" from past games, others probably have no interest. So they demand changes designed for them, BUT since they didn't bother even trying for one of the above reasons, they then create a fiction that it's "hard work" and other non-sense because they feel they need a justification for their demands.

 

I can almost understand the first group but the second, those that don't have any interest period, yeah they are simply being disingenuous. The proper answer would not be "it's work and only a minority want to work in an MMO", because it's not work. To make matters worse they have no way of knowing because they've never tried. The proper answer is "I have no interest in raiding and so think resources should not be spent on it."

 

Other people did not even try content solo content after the change. They simply did nothing and cried because they saw a nerf in the patch notes and instantly said "IMPOSSIBLE!!!" If they did bother trying, on this, and other, threads you simply saw people post "X hps reduced to Y hps!?!?!" You then showed a parse where Y still allowed completion of a task. They ignored the fact that numbers in a video game are only as important as the result in game play and they just yelled again "X hps reduced to Y hps!?!?!?!" What was funny was if/when some people posted parses you could see THEY completed the encounter successfully BUT they completely ignored that fact in their "careful" analysis. Again disingenuous arguments.

 

This is not to say that people are not entitled to their opinions. Example, while I disagreed with them I respected the people who straight up said

 

 

 

This is an valid opinion expressed in a forthright manner. It is something that I can agree to disagree with and move on. It is the disingenuous and often hypocritical arguments that have driven me to frustration during this whole debacle.

 

I never complained about raiders (I also know you did not point a finger at me either) I don't raid for a couple reasons.

1. I generally don't care for the people I see in the game, well, chat at least, and prefer to play the game solo. That is not to say if I enjoy the solo experience enough I wouldn't decide to give it a try.

2. Most people would not enjoy grouping with me either, I am in chronic pain and after a short time need to get up and move because staying in the same position increases the pain level. Not anyone's fault and no reason I should force my problems on others and ruin their fun. I might, if enjoying the rest of the game decide to do what I can to be able to finish a raid.

3. A blanket buff would work as a stopgap measure, but a game mechanic that allows you to change how powerful your companion is would also encourage the casual players to learn a bit more, at their own speed and while still enjoying the game.

 

And never said it was impossible (again you did not point at anyone in specific) just not fun for me.

[Ghisallo]

On top of that the statement by Eric that players should be able to solo any 2+ heroic with their comp ins't helping either since as of now it is not true. Especially for those who are low level with low level influence companions.

 

Ummm it is true IF you read the OP here. You are making the classic mistake of reading out of context. You say "should be able to solo any heroic 2+ BUT then say things like...

 

Their companion’s role should begin to matter at this point, supplementing the player’s own Discipline. We expect some players to find these challenging initially—maybe even needing a friend’s help--but once the player earns better gear, a few levels of Influence with their companion, and has a greater understanding of the game, they should be able to solo the hardest of these missions.

 

Now I have no problem if someone wants to say they don't agree that concept that he very clearly expressed BUT your statement implies it should be done as soon as you are level/story eligible to do it. Clearly if we actually read what Eric said that was an assumption by players desiring instant gratification and not actually a statement by Eric.

 

Even in the much quoted other comment by Eric he mentioned the words "MORE CHALLENGING" Funny how when people bolded that quote the "more challenging part was either A) never included or B) intentionally not put in bold, don't ya think?

 

This is another part of my issue with the disingenuous nature of some of the arguments that have been floting around.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Noyjitat]

It reminds me of SOE's awful balancing act of Planetside 2 and their demise. They're too busy "balancing" the game and the three unique factions to actually fix the game's core and longstanding issues that have been around since the testing phase.

 

"PTS server? QA feedback? What's that?"

 

Those incompetent twits coded themselves out of a job eventually. The company is now owned by an investment firm after Sony got rid of them. Looks like BioWare is employing balancing geniuses of equal prowess.

 

The first mistake people made was completely leaving planetside 1 to play that crap. Wasn't long before people went back to whatever non soe game they were playing and then around the time I quit both games were dead.

[Ghisallo]

I never complained about raiders (I also know you did not point a finger at me either) I don't raid for a couple reasons.

1. I generally don't care for the people I see in the game, well, chat at least, and prefer to play the game solo. That is not to say if I enjoy the solo experience enough I wouldn't decide to give it a try.

2. Most people would not enjoy grouping with me either, I am in chronic pain and after a short time need to get up and move because staying in the same position increases the pain level. Not anyone's fault and no reason I should force my problems on others and ruin their fun. I might, if enjoying the rest of the game decide to do what I can to be able to finish a raid.

3. A blanket buff would work as a stopgap measure, but a game mechanic that allows you to change how powerful your companion is would also encourage the casual players to learn a bit more, at their own speed and while still enjoying the game.

 

And never said it was impossible (again you did not point at anyone in specific) just not fun for me.

 

 

And like I said people who argue as you do I have no problem with. I may raise one question though, why play an MMO then when there are plenty of video games with these features, but that is one of those reasonable "agree to disagree" debates.

 

FYI... many of my arguments are because I look at games the way I do stuff irl. I never understood why people change their thought process the minute they enter a User name and password. Example irl I am one of those people who does those MS150 charity bike rides, runs charity 5ks and 10 milers etc. When I see people complaining how hard the bike ride was, when they were doing it on a Mountain Bike with knobby tires (wrong tool for road rides) and they say all they do is ride on the road I wil ask "then why in the world did you buy a bike designed to ride for 10 miles on dirty trails to ride 150 miles on tarmac?"

 

I apply the same concepts to my video games. I do not enjoy circle strafeing, bunny hopping PVP so when "realism servers" in Ghost Recon and COD went bye bye I stopped playing the games. I don't like fast twitch action games playstyles designed to work with console controllers so I did not buy GW2 after testing it and, as much as I LOVE Norrath, will not buy EQNext (if it ever comes out) because that is the current design for it as well.

 

So while I can respect your opinions and preferred playstyle I must also admit to being puzzled by seeing them expressed by people in an MMO.

[Akeashar]

You are correct, the problem is more than a few here and on other threads have made it clear that, for them, anything short of a full reversion is unacceptable. Half the reason this debacle grew as quickly as it did is because this particular camp created a hypoerbolic crap storm founded in the FALSE claim that healing was so broken the content was now impossible. So they will attempt to continue the crap storm without a full reversion. I predict an ugly Thanksgiving holiday on the forums.

 

Oh, I'm quite sure the crap storm will continue either way as the people that were defending the changes as being 'About right' and that everyone else should l2p will get their knickers in the twist with even the slightest buff to companions, let alone the numbers that are being bandied about which sound like they would be more useful for staying alive for squishier classes. The post on Monday should be quite enlightening, but it appears that the feedback and metrics have conclusively (for Bioware itself at least) put to rest that things are not all right with healer comps at present and defending the current level is defending the indefensible.

 

Since the patch came down I've all but avoided my 65 208 Fury Marauder due to the healing comp bugs. Its not just the level of healing that is too far down, its Vette getting distracted checking her tumblr instead of paying attention to the fight. Until yesterday at which point I tried out the Ilum and Makeb Heroics for the first time. Brutal but interesting, with most of the wiping coming from The Observer Heroic. (Since I've not progressed far in Makeb I didn't have all the Heroics unlocked)

 

Playing a rising Jedi Sage Seer in comparison has been interesting with the tank companion since Qyzen, C2-N2 and Theran have all proven quite good as tank companions for levelling Heroics. Each time I'd arrive at a new planet for the Class Quest, I'd go off and do the Heroics. I've done them all up through Alderaan (which I'm just finishing off) and the only time that I had any real issues was on Nar Shaddar during the Mandalorian and Morgukai Heroics. They were the first time I'd actually wiped on Heroics with the class although things got frantic at times, but they were doable with patience and the willingness to make sacrifices. That and I forgot Force Lift until Alderaan which is completely on my own head.

 

C2-N2 proved an especially apt tank with his influence rating of 1, although I'm tempted to keep using Theran just because of him using dancing Holiday as his CC move.

[MerlockVonBaron]

only thing I rather see is more companion alerts so we can recruit more while we wait till chapter 10 is released. atm got nothing going on

[Ghisallo]

Oh, I'm quite sure the crap storm will continue either way as the people that were defending the changes as being 'About right' and that everyone else should l2p will get their knickers in the twist with even the slightest buff to companions, let alone the numbers that are being bandied about which sound like they would be more useful for staying alive for squishier classes. The post on Monday should be quite enlightening, but it appears that the feedback and metrics have conclusively (for Bioware itself at least) put to rest that things are not all right with healer comps at present and defending the current level is defending the indefensible.

 

Since the patch came down I've all but avoided my 65 208 Fury Marauder due to the healing comp bugs. Its not just the level of healing that is too far down, its Vette getting distracted checking her tumblr instead of paying attention to the fight. Until yesterday at which point I tried out the Ilum and Makeb Heroics for the first time. Brutal but interesting, with most of the wiping coming from The Observer Heroic. (Since I've not progressed far in Makeb I didn't have all the Heroics unlocked)

 

Playing a rising Jedi Sage Seer in comparison has been interesting with the tank companion since Qyzen, C2-N2 and Theran have all proven quite good as tank companions for levelling Heroics. Each time I'd arrive at a new planet for the Class Quest, I'd go off and do the Heroics. I've done them all up through Alderaan (which I'm just finishing off) and the only time that I had any real issues was on Nar Shaddar during the Mandalorian and Morgukai Heroics. They were the first time I'd actually wiped on Heroics with the class although things got frantic at times, but they were doable with patience and the willingness to make sacrifices. That and I forgot Force Lift until Alderaan which is completely on my own head.

 

C2-N2 proved an especially apt tank with his influence rating of 1, although I'm tempted to keep using Theran just because of him using dancing Holiday as his CC move.

 

The problem is that when Eric says in the OP here...

 

We expect some players to find these challenging initially—maybe even needing a friend’s help--but once the player earns better gear, a few levels of Influence with their companion, and has a greater understanding of the game.... we expect you to have level-appropriate gear, a good understanding of your class, a companion with a few levels of Influence.... We expect most players to be able to solo these with a little practice and effort on their part to gain some increased power.... At this point we expect players to really understand their class, their companion, and their gear.

 

how is it unreasonable to at least ask "are you using the right rotations? Are you using CC and interrupts?" etc Because while I did see some jerks say "l2p" noob and such I also saw people upset with the changes getting their panties in a bunch over simple questions like these.

 

Lets be honest, the loudest voices against the nerfs were from people who often were at least honest and said they did not think the solo portion of the game should involve progression or "knowledge of your class". They thought steamrolling was appropriate. I will give those people kudos for honesty.

[Lord_Sleepy]

And like I said people who argue as you do I have no problem with. I may raise one question though, why play an MMO then when there are plenty of video games with these features, but that is one of those reasonable "agree to disagree" debates.

 

FYI... many of my arguments are because I look at games the way I do stuff irl. I never understood why people change their thought process the minute they enter a User name and password. Example irl I am one of those people who does those MS150 charity bike rides, runs charity 5ks and 10 milers etc. When I see people complaining how hard the bike ride was, when they were doing it on a Mountain Bike with knobby tires (wrong tool for road rides) and they say all they do is ride on the road I wil ask "then why in the world did you buy a bike designed to ride for 10 miles on dirty trails to ride 150 miles on tarmac?"

 

I apply the same concepts to my video games. I do not enjoy circle strafeing, bunny hopping PVP so when "realism servers" in Ghost Recon and COD went bye bye I stopped playing the games. I don't like fast twitch action games playstyles designed to work with console controllers so I did not buy GW2 after testing it and, as much as I LOVE Norrath, will not buy EQNext (if it ever comes out) because that is the current design for it as well.

 

So while I can respect your opinions and preferred playstyle I must also admit to being puzzled by seeing them expressed by people in an MMO.

 

I use to enjoy pvp on other mmo's, but was able to dedicate longer periods to it then also. And might decide to give it a try here, but just because others are playing in the same playground doesn't mean I need to go join them either. I play this game because I like the game not the mmo part (except for the auction house) so I do the stuff I like, and want to be able to enjoy it as I like without impacting the enjoyment of others. It isn't I don't like challenge, I hate boredom, make the grinds fast and I will do it on all my characters, make it slow, tedious, and metaphorically painful, and might finish it on one because of stubborn, but none of my alts will.

 

I have no problem learning new things or getting better, but want to have fun while doing it so it still falls into enjoyable hobby and not boring tedious chore.

 

I liked mountain bikes for what they are meant for, but also used them on roads and had no problem.

[Vegal_Zugarin]

If you want a challenge go play the ops on nightmare mode there are lots to choose from while the rest of us have fun ... fun ? Isn't that what gamings all about having fun.I'm sure the 'stress heads' will disagree

[Gorrdan]

Ummm it is true IF you read the OP here. You are making the classic mistake of reading out of context. You say "should be able to solo any heroic 2+ BUT then say things like...

 

 

 

Now I have no problem if someone wants to say they don't agree that concept that he very clearly expressed BUT your statement implies it should be done as soon as you are level/story eligible to do it. Clearly if we actually read what Eric said that was an assumption by players desiring instant gratification and not actually a statement by Eric.

 

Even in the much quoted other comment by Eric he mentioned the words "MORE CHALLENGING" Funny how when people bolded that quote the "more challenging part was either A) never included or B) intentionally not put in bold, don't ya think?

 

This is another part of my issue with the disingenuous nature of some of the arguments that have been floting around.

 

Once again. I am talking about low level companions and low level players not Star Fortress. Whatever you said applies to lvl 65 players but not those whoa re just starting the game and or on their first character. The current system is very discouraging considering how majority ignore your plea to group up on planets.

[murgatroid]

Please give us your feedback, and we simply ask you to be as constructive as possible. Include information such as:

Your level 65

Roughly Average Item Rating all 208-216 gear

Discipline Sentinel watchman

Companion t7

Companion role heal

Companion Influence level 20

the mission I tested against was the Voss H2 planetary not afraid enough. previous to the change this one took a while but was doable and was a medium to light difficulty using your scale. post change my companion cannot keep up as a healer. the mobs of 1-2 gold with the 5-6 silvers overwhelm him and defeat him quickly before coming back to me and wearing me down. this happened in two of the mobs and the mobs we didn't wipe in we were with a shard of health. I couldn't complete this one in a fun or timely fashion. Well I probably could, but the effort was not worth the reward. for the gear level and companion level I would have expected to easily finish the voss H2's. not without risk, but definitely not dying every other fight.

[Ghisallo]

I use to enjoy pvp on other mmo's, but was able to dedicate longer periods to it then also. And might decide to give it a try here, but just because others are playing in the same playground doesn't mean I need to go join them either. I play this game because I like the game not the mmo part (except for the auction house) so I do the stuff I like, and want to be able to enjoy it as I like without impacting the enjoyment of others. It isn't I don't like challenge, I hate boredom, make the grinds fast and I will do it on all my characters, make it slow, tedious, and metaphorically painful, and might finish it on one because of stubborn, but none of my alts will.

 

I have no problem learning new things or getting better, but want to have fun while doing it so it still falls into enjoyable hobby and not boring tedious chore.

 

I liked mountain bikes for what they are meant for, but also used them on roads and had no problem.

 

Oh some people do have\ no problems on the road with mountain bikes but unless you do a lot of training after about 50 miles the upright sitting position starts some back/bottom issues, the limited hand positions (over drop bars) can cause that "tingly" sensation (you'll see the people shaking their hands because they "fell asleep) and the wider knobby tires have a lot more rolling resistance. I actually got some of my coworkers doing these rides and with a connection one year got them free rentals of road bikes for one ride we do every year. After that they all went out and, to their spouses chagrin, ended up with a 2nd bike in their house, they either had full on road bikes or hybrid/city bikes like the Trek FX. (I am actually more of a bike geek than a gamer geek lol)

[MeNaCe-NZ]

The problem is that when Eric says in the OP here...

 

 

 

how is it unreasonable to at least ask "are you using the right rotations? Are you using CC and interrupts?" etc Because while I did see some jerks say "l2p" noob and such I also saw people upset with the changes getting their panties in a bunch over simple questions like these.

 

Lets be honest, the loudest voices against the nerfs were from people who often were at least honest and said they did not think the solo portion of the game should involve progression or "knowledge of your class". They thought steamrolling was appropriate. I will give those people kudos for honesty.

 

The problem was 2 fold - first they called the HM SF a heroic 2, it shouldn't be lumped in with the other heroics.

Secondly Eric posted this and it's what everyone seems to be jumping on as to what Bioware intends.

 

Absolutely! It certainly may be a bit more challenging than before but you can complete them. The intent is that you can complete any [Heroic 2] with your Companion counting as one of the two. If you find this isn't true for any Heroics tomorrow, let us know.

 

Thus anyone who couldn't do a heroic solo anymore basically saw the above as lies ( and it kind of is ).

Thus I imagine someone had words with Eric hence the OP in this topic that clarifies what Bioware want.

 

Too often Eric seems to make the odd off hand comment and people take it as verbatim as though he is a dev or designer. I get he's the voice of BW within our community but it's this stupid attitude of "If eric says it it must be true" that meas we get so little communication from him on various issues within the game.

 

In saying that I don't actually think he is very good at his job at all. I've been a long time critic of him and the community team.

In the example I put above for as long as he has been here why would you post it in such an absolute manner knowing exactly how the community will take it instead of posting "As far as I'm aware this is how it's meant to be but let me check with the designers and get back to you folks asap".

This simple mistaken communication happens far too often with Eric and I think the powers that be need to really look more closely at his role and it's failings ... a community shouldn't be this angry and this divided and felt like they are often left to their own devices and left in the dark as what we have here and we get no "management" what so ever from Eric n co. to try help remedy the situation.

 

tldr: If Eric posts it take it with a grain of salt as to how factual it is, you can often tell when he's putting forward his opinion as fact ( i.e. the post I quoted ) or if it's fact from the developers with a careful constructed post based on their information ( the OP of this topic ).

I only take what actual devs and designers post as factual because they are the people making the content and have the intention of how it's meant to be hence the alliance blog supporting my thoughts on HM SF not being a Heroic 2+ as we know it, that designer clearly stated how it was supposed to be.

[Cox_The_Beast]

This week I tested the changes for myself on my two main characters. I ran Heroic Weeklies and Star Fortresses on Heroic on both.

 

Lightning Sorc, lvl 65. Gear is a mix of 208, 216 and 220 rating with 186 crafted Relics from SoR that don't require clicking to be used. All Augmented in 200 rating blue Critical Augments, save for Implants and Earpiece.

- Star Fortress Heroic: Lana Beniko, Rank 35.

Tank Mode: Good threat generation, very impressed. I rarely, if ever, had enemies focus on me, but the lack of mitigation made her eat quite the gruesome hits. Had to offheal her a bit and keep my Resurgence on her, good thing she has a self-heal attack or I wouldn't have managed the final boss. I'd really like a fix to those, in Tank Mode she has 0% Shield, 5% Defence and 0% Absorb... Even a lvl 10 [insert Tank-able Player Class Here] with a shield equipped has more than that...

DPS Mode: Pretty standard, I had to facetank because of my higher damage output but as expected enemies went down fast. Had to offheal a lot in the final fight, although that was expected.

Healer Mode: This is my favourite. I can facetank and eat hits better than my Lana in Tank Mode, and her healing with my Resurgence on myself is more than enough to keep me up, even on the final boss. In case of an emergency, all I have to do is use my instant selfheal and I'm good.

- Heroic runs: Lana Beniko, Rank 35.

Had no trouble whatsoever, some mobs take a moment or two more than before the "nerf" (no reason not to go Healer here, makes it so much faster that way... ) but all in all, we're good.

 

Defence Guardian, again lvl 65. Gear is all 200-208 save for Relics, again crafted 186 from SoR with the same philosophy as above, modifiable pieces and Relics all augmented with 200 rating blue Shield Augments.

- Star Fortress Heroic: T7-O1, Rank 15.

Tank Mode: Pointless as a Tank, I have a better threat generation anyway, but T7 can dish out some good damage even as Tank. Again, he ate a lot of hits whenever he taunted off me, because of 0 mitigation. Especially the final boss, the threat juggling was very challenging to keep, as without healing from neither of us it was a matter of relying on Focused Defence, T7's selfheal and Heroic Moment. Pretty sure if he didn't taunt off me all the time he'd have suffered about 0 dmg on mobs, although that was necessary on the final boss...

DPS Mode: Again, acceptable. Made mob faster, and survivability was not a problem, but I prefer a pocket healer when I'm on a Tank. Especially on the final boss, where I pretty much had to use Heroic Moment when available.

Healer Mode: Pretty much godmode, with the proper use of Defensive Cooldowns. As it should be. The final fight was very interesting, didn't even had to use Heroic Moment, unlike DPS and Tank runs... Unity did come in handy that one time T7 ripped aggro through Guard, though.

- Heroic runs: T7-O1, Rank 15.

As above nothing different to report. Doable without trouble, as long as ability delay doesn't kick in when in dead-NPC-filled areas.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Cox_The_Beast

[Lord_Sleepy]

Oh some people do have\ no problems on the road with mountain bikes but unless you do a lot of training after about 50 miles the upright sitting position starts some back/bottom issues, the limited hand positions (over drop bars) can cause that "tingly" sensation (you'll see the people shaking their hands because they "fell asleep) and the wider knobby tires have a lot more rolling resistance. I actually got some of my coworkers doing these rides and with a connection one year got them free rentals of road bikes for one ride we do every year. After that they all went out and, to their spouses chagrin, ended up with a 2nd bike in their house, they either had full on road bikes or hybrid/city bikes like the Trek FX. (I am actually more of a bike geek than a gamer geek lol)

 

Anything causes me back trouble now, but the tingly hands, I would sit upright and then when my back hurt from that lean over and hold the handle bars to ease the pain.

 

But as I was saying (so we are a bit on topic at least) I want you to enjoy the game the way you like, I want to enjoy it how I like, and if I enjoy how I like might join in how you like to see how it is and might find I like that also. When you are having fun, learning new stuff is easier and not even noticed, I want to be able to have OP companions if that is my mood, or turn it down to a new level so it become more of a challenge while still being fun. That is the best way to learn new stuff for me at least if not others.

[hackjak]

The problem is that when Eric says in the OP here...

 

 

 

how is it unreasonable to at least ask "are you using the right rotations? Are you using CC and interrupts?" etc Because while I did see some jerks say "l2p" noob and such I also saw people upset with the changes getting their panties in a bunch over simple questions like these.

 

Lets be honest, the loudest voices against the nerfs were from people who often were at least honest and said they did not think the solo portion of the game should involve progression or "knowledge of your class". They thought steamrolling was appropriate. I will give those people kudos for honesty.

 

It's unreasonable to ask for a "right rotation" because you get abilities needed for them so late in the game.

Edited November 21, 2015 by hackjak

[Psychopyro]

how is it unreasonable to at least ask "are you using the right rotations? .

I can answer this...

 

1. Rotation only truly applies to parse dummies and raids.

 

2.Shadows and Scoundrels are positional rotations (for instance). Meaning if you cannot get into position, you lose maybe a quarter to a third of your DPS. Saying change spec, well this is not reasonable, every spec should be viable. If they are not, then there is a serious design problem.

 

3. Healers don't have "rotations" per se. Tank and DPS companions still have problems. And fights that take a long time because all you can do is heal just to keep a comp up is not fun.

 

4. Damage is very spiky, especially for paper DPS. A good deal of these mobs were not adjusted in regards to their spike damage. So classes with low or no self heals feel the pain even more.

 

5. Not every mob can be CCd, Stunned, Interrupted, etc . Not all classes have viable CC for some quests. And stealth classes for management I find are the worst because they make it so their CC is useless to manage pre pulls by making everything a droid (scoundrels do get slice droid, but shadows for instance get nothing to manage droids), or giving them unreal stealth detection (or making it so you cannot stealth at all), or by making pulls on script rather then situational.

 

Is some of it a L2P issue, yes. But a good deal of it is poor testing and redesign to make it so all classes can use their full skill set. The Star Fortress is a perfect example. Stealth is completely useless during the last fight to manage each section.

[Apache]

Lets be honest, the loudest voices against the nerfs were from people who often were at least honest and said they did not think the solo portion of the game should involve progression or "knowledge of your class". They thought steamrolling was appropriate. I will give those people kudos for honesty.

 

Apologies for sniping this portion of your post. Its wasn't meant to be rude, but I think it kind of hits close to what I feel is the real issue.

 

Personally, I was a Beta Tester. Early access and all of that, but I quit the game just before SoR. So I often feel the same way about Heroics that a lot of the people wanting more of a challenge do. Im used to them having to be challenging and I still am kind of stuck in that way of thinking.

 

But the problem with KoTFE has that other expansion didn't have is that almost all of the end game content revolves around Heroics. This expansion doesn't have the normal Dailies that other expansions have.

 

Normally I don't like to do this but Im going to copy paste something I posted in another thread that I feel is the core of these problems.

 

Here

 

I believe the problem is simply having Heroics as the main source of content in this expansion is the problem.

 

In the past (cant speak for SoR since I wasn't here for that one), each expansion had a bunch of normal dailies that a casual player could easily do solo. There were weekly Heroics, but if someone couldn't do them or didn't want to, then they didn't have to. There were plenty of non heroic dailies they could do.

 

In the past, people could solo those Heroic 2's, but they were kind of difficult. You had to out level them or out gear them and be fairly (not expert) skilled with your character. Which was doable since we could gear up our companions too. We could gear them in Tank, or Dps, or Healing gear to enhance their abilities much like we could ourselves.

 

But then we Have KoTFE, where the end game content is extremely Heroic heavy unlike previous expansions. But it was fine because even though we couldn't gear up our companions like previous versions, their sheer power made doing the Heroics perfectly fine. And lets face it, they were insanely strong.

 

And then we have KoTFE today. The devs tried to nerf Companions to closer resemble their earlier versions and bring doing Heroics back to being more of a challenge. Which I feel would have been fine if the vast bulk of end game content didn't rely on Heroics. Had players had access to Non Heroic dailies they could do instead, or at least non level syncd heroics, then they probably wouldn't have made such a fuss.

 

As far as I know, the only other option that a casual player has to increase their specialist standing and companion influence besides running heroics is to farm Solo Star Fortress and kill the bonus boss over and over and over.

 

So in my own personal opinion, BW really messed up by making end game content so Heroic heavy.

 

I mean, they said that this expansion was going to be much more casual and solo friendly, yet they want the heroics to be closer to the challenge level of previous expansions. Which were not very solo friendly at all. Plus throw in the fact that almost all of the end game content revolves around Heroics.... How is that casual/solo friendly? It cant be both in my eyes.

 

Any way.. just my thoughts.

[Ghisallo]

Once again. I am talking about low level companions and low level players not Star Fortress. Whatever you said applies to lvl 65 players but not those whoa re just starting the game and or on their first character. The current system is very discouraging considering how majority ignore your plea to group up on planets.

 

I am not talking about Star Fortress singularly. If you look some of those quotes are regarding the "regular H2's."

 

[Heroic 2] Missions – Challenge Level: Medium. To complete this content, a player should have a good understanding of their class and game mechanics, as well as level appropriate gear. Their companion’s role should begin to matter at this point, supplementing the player’s own Discipline. We expect some players to find these challenging initially—maybe even needing a friend’s help--but once the player earns better gear, a few levels of Influence with their companion, and has a greater understanding of the game, they should be able to solo the hardest of these missions.

 

So yeah...

 

I think they screwed up there though, let me explain.

First look at the order of the OP....

 

Leveling content>KotFE Chapters>Heroic 2 Missions>Star Fortresses>Heroic Star Fortresses>The one and only.

 

This to me says they were not looking at the H2 missions as Leveling content, that is level 65 content.

 

Why? They changed the game so that you can level exclusively off the class story. As such that is, to their mind, the "intended" leveling path obviously. Also when explaining level sync in a live stream Eric said, while doing a H2 on Dromund Kaas, that "a capable" player should be able to solo them with level sync.

 

Now the impact of this design concept. They convert a host of h4's to h2's and they make these part of the level 65 grind. a grind that is supposed to have the difficulty I note above. Now a level synced level 65, is first over leveled for that content. To boot they may be at say Nar Shaddah's max level BUT they will have access to all of the passives and abilities of a level 65 in their discipline AND all of the level 65 utilities. This makes them FAR MORE powerful than a player leveling on Nar Shadda.

 

So in short while a player may have assumed that they intended a leveling character to he able to solo an H2 on their leveling planet... if you read everything they have published about H2's and level sync they were NEVER talking about leveling players soloing them, only level sync'd 60+ characters.

 

Hence me speaking of assumptions. Now I understand everyone does not watch the live streams and that it is common for people to look for the quickest answer but here context is VERY important and I think too many people missed the context for any number of reasons.

[JourrnoRush]

I can answer this...

 

1. Rotation only truly applies to parse dummies and raids.

 

2.Shadows and Scoundrels are positional rotations (for instance). Meaning if you cannot get into position, you lose maybe a quarter to a third of your DPS. Saying change spec, well this is not reasonable, every spec should be viable. If they are not, then there is a serious design problem.

 

3. Healers don't have "rotations" per se. Tank and DPS companions still have problems. And fights that take a long time because all you can do is heal just to keep a comp up is not fun.

 

4. Damage is very spiky, especially for paper DPS. A good deal of these mobs were not adjusted in regards to their spike damage. So classes with low or no self heals feel the pain even more.

 

5. Not every mob can be CCd, Stunned, Interrupted, etc . Not all classes have viable CC for some quests. And stealth classes for management I find are the worst because they make it so their CC is useless to manage pre pulls by making everything a droid (scoundrels do get slice droid, but shadows for instance get nothing to manage droids), or giving them unreal stealth detection (or making it so you cannot stealth at all), or by making pulls on script rather then situational.

 

Is some of it a L2P issue, yes. But a good deal of it is poor testing and redesign to make it so all classes can use their full skill set. The Star Fortress is a perfect example. Stealth is completely useless during the last fight to manage each section.

 

Originally I thought it would be appropriate for people to learn their class for heroic missions. However, after some thought and feedback I think I am incorrect.

 

We are arguing about dailies and heroics. There is nothing special about these except that people can make some money and gear while leveling.

 

The players that can't play their class, don't want gear, don't want to learn rotations will most likely never be any type of harder content anyways. So the elitists among us don't lose anything.

 

Personally, I'd rather have them in heroics / dailies rather in a pug (assuming they meet the criteria above) operation group.

 

BW will use the feedback, hopefully correctly, and adjust things to meet somewhere in the middle. The Star Fortress heroic being soloable, if they make it too easy like right when 4.0 dropped then I can understand why people would be upset. They make content that is supposed to be challenging to MOST, but then people complain its too hard. Unfortunately, I don't think BW can win with this community.

 

Good luck devs, you're gonna need it.

[cambul]

What a strange community this is where offering to help makes you an elitist douchebag and people are proud of being near the bottom in terms of skill.

 

indeed, that does seem to be a very strange attitude to have. thankfully forums generally only make up a small volume of a games player base. regular posters do tend to represent the more extreme attitudes, and opinions, in an mmo, tending to stand out more in the forum than in the actual game, were they are very much a whisper in the general buzz of busy play.

[Ghisallo]

I can answer this...

 

1. Rotation only truly applies to parse dummies and raids.

 

2.Shadows and Scoundrels are positional rotations (for instance). Meaning if you cannot get into position, you lose maybe a quarter to a third of your DPS. Saying change spec, well this is not reasonable, every spec should be viable. If they are not, then there is a serious design problem.

 

3. Healers don't have "rotations" per se. Tank and DPS companions still have problems. And fights that take a long time because all you can do is heal just to keep a comp up is not fun.

 

4. Damage is very spiky, especially for paper DPS. A good deal of these mobs were not adjusted in regards to their spike damage. So classes with low or no self heals feel the pain even more.

 

5. Not every mob can be CCd, Stunned, Interrupted, etc . Not all classes have viable CC for some quests. And stealth classes for management I find are the worst because they make it so their CC is useless to manage pre pulls by making everything a droid (scoundrels do get slice droid, but shadows for instance get nothing to manage droids), or giving them unreal stealth detection (or making it so you cannot stealth at all), or by making pulls on script rather then situational.

 

Is some of it a L2P issue, yes. But a good deal of it is poor testing and redesign to make it so all classes can use their full skill set. The Star Fortress is a perfect example. Stealth is completely useless during the last fight to manage each section.

 

 

I was just using them as an example. You are correct on the issue of rotations. All I am saying is that when the devs start talking about "knowing the game" and "really knowing your class" and you have two different groups having two very different experiences in the same content you are going to have someone ask, regardless of the phrasing, "how are you playing your character?"

 

Now some will do it in a rude manner. This I find unacceptable, but I think it is reasonable, in a respectful manner and with the intent to help and not embarrass, to ask someone what they are doing if you are succeeding and they are not. This could point out that maybe they aren't using CC and interrupts (that can make or break you on the ambush in H2 SF) it could be that based on their gear they might still be a little "off". Now some people may not want to hear they have to "grind gear" and I get that, but if that is WAI for the expac its WAI and we have to deal with it.

 

I do agree design is indeed an issue as well. I know I will have a harder time doing the H2 SF on my operative than I do my JK. heck tbh I think the plan for this expac is off in general. They didn't have the resources to redo the old FP and OPs and make new ones BUT they wanted people who did FP and OPs to feel like there was something new for them here to. The problem was that meant making the H2 SF much more of a challenge than many of your dedicated solo/story player wants/expects. As it is solo they expect it to meet THEIR expectations since that is "their" content.