Operative Healing driving me crazy in PVP

[Lalainnia]

Ops don't need any buffs sorcs simply need healing value nerfs

[MrGoldsilver]

Ops don't need any buffs sorcs simply need healing value nerfs

 

Basically this, operative healing is fine right now, with better AOE, but worse single target healing than a sorc.

 

Sorcs need some sort of nerf, probably to resource management, while commando's need some sort of buff so that they are stronger than sorcs in single target burst, but weak in aoe heals.

[csant]

I just got back into the game after some time away... I think when I left commado's were the FoTM healers.

 

Anyway... if the meta in ranked will be double PT's/Sorc/Dps. I might just skip ranked all together...

 

I will admit Hottie, I've watched ur games and there are times when double carbonize allows for the hots and heals to catch people up and like you mention everyone is at the 50% range. That can't be fun...

 

All I know is I love my OP healer and I refuse to make my Sorc into a healer just for ranks. I simply just wont play it.

[kissingaiur]

Okay, I'll bite back!

Have you ever played on tofn? I would highly suggest you try out operative against tank tunneling with triple carbonize, 3 interrupts being thrown at you over and over while sorc dotspread slowly drains the life out of your group.

 

The reason you are winning with op is double carbo, try healing without that, it is ridiculously hard. We are dependant on the most op class in team ranked to do our job properly.

 

Sorry, for posting this so late I’m just trying to wrap my head around this. Why would a tank tunneling comp run with 3 carbonizes and go double AP (wouldn’t a sniper be better for tunneling a PT tank or a Mara for that matter)? I already am playing vs. mirror comp with 3 interrupt rotations on myself, 2 PTs sitting on me (tank, AP DPS) and other on one of my DPS. I don’t understand how this would be better than tunneling a DPS AP lol. This literally just means I would be spam healing the tank who has more HP and myself while having my two other DPS freecast on their team. To me this makes no sense but yeah, maybe we will swing by tofn and play vs. this strategy.

 

People still go DPS Sorc? That is a surprise to me. It’s just so easy to shut them down with a PT or Sniper that I thought they all died out. No one runs Sorc DPS on our server in teams anymore. Every comp that is running on Harb would destroy a Sorc DPS.

 

My team is best at running pressure comps and the best pressure comps is running at least double carb. It would be stupid not to. Regardless, you might be correct but till I test this out myself I have no other comment on the subject.

 

Giving ops better single target healing through a buff to UM but also allowing it to plan forward with kolto infusion hot would not make it the best all around healer (stronger Um but weaker upfront kolto infusion would not change burst that much). It would allow operatives to actually perform well in solo ranked (which I don't care about but meh) and play team compositions without carbonize to give us breathing room to heal.

 

Carbonize comps are literally meta. We have yet to see a comp that is better that wins consistently. I have yet to play Vara’s double mez, triple interrupt team but that is the only team that might be an issue (other than mirror).

 

KI crits for 18k average only on autokrit which you do not always have active.

18k UM+3.6k average SP+KP Tick for 2k= 23.5k healing which is to remind you what a pt can do with a single hit.

 

http://imgur.com/rcIgLLe

 

Here is a parse form a team ranked game. Numbers are slightly higher then you believe, using average and crit average. I have looked at multiple other parses from my games. When I needed to cast heal majority of the ones I looked at +9 minutes long parses, in regs my UM crit for 100%. Again this is because of auto crit but just think about that, when you need to cast heal majority of the time it will be a crit. Other then that you are keeping people up with Infusion/Kolto Wave/HoTs/Cloud.

This is also me with wearing half power and dropping crit because of this mez comp I was facing. So my crit is a little low.

 

My point is that if you are freecasting your heals are so weak without autocrit that you cannot keep people up being tunneled hard while you are shut down to minimum healing, all casts being interrupted, you being whitebarred (I counted, between 2 interrupts a stun and a third one it took me about 8 seconds to get a heal off) (especially PT tanks that's why we switched to sin).

 

If you are not shut down everything is fine, st hps could be better but it is alright I guess.

The interrupt immunity would not lead to opness for ops in my opinion but if you dislike it I have a couple other suggestions, you can still be stunned mezzed kicked etc. so it is not a guaranteed heal.

 

My alternative was that when interrupted on an ability you gain interrupt immunity for the next 5 seconds and the duration is extended by stuns mezzes etc. my point is that chain interrupts should not be possible.

 

If they left me freecast in any of my team games I would be pulling over 8K HPS every round. I kid you not. Also auto Crit appear a lot more often then you believe. I think it’s every 30 seconds or so. I don’t think the way to go is to give operatives interrupt immunity because of how superior our AoE heals are. Our single target heals aren’t that weak at all you just have to work around it. For example, when you are whitebarried do the tank/healer switch to get out a free cast heal without interrupts, cc dps on you and cast heal and/or bait interrupts with other abilities. If these strategies didn’t work I wouldn’t be having the success in teams that we are having verse what I would consider, some of the best players in the game.

 

Buffing UM and making Infusion a hot again would add more depth to the gameplay, basing infusion on predictions and as a compensation for the burstnerf on it I suggested to buff UM (autocrits for +20% would be Insane i did the calculations^^ you were right but the concept stayed the same, I just want UM to be good even as a noncrit without overbuffing the crit version).

 

Buffing our single target heals would help but Operative healing is the problem here. I will agree that Sorcs are a little over tuned and easy to play (maybe a 5% nerf to their healing) but Operatives are still incredibility strong. That’s why I’m super defensive when it comes down to this discussion. I’m not going along willingly to this "underpowered operative" bandwagon because I just don’t see Operative healing being terrible by any means.

Edited November 10, 2015 by kissingaiur

[aristrokratie]

Sorry, for posting this so late I’m just trying to wrap my head around this. Why would a tank tunneling comp run with 3 carbonizes and go double AP (wouldn’t a sniper be better for tunneling a PT tank or a Mara for that matter)? I already am playing vs. mirror comp with 3 interrupt rotations on myself, 2 PTs sitting on me (tank, AP DPS) and other on one of my DPS. I don’t understand how this would be better than tunneling a DPS AP lol. This literally just means I would be spam healing the tank who has more HP and myself while having my two other DPS freecast on their team. To me this makes no sense but yeah, maybe we will swing by tofn and play vs. this strategy.

 

People still go DPS Sorc? That is a surprise to me. It’s just so easy to shut them down with a PT or Sniper that I thought they all died out. No one runs Sorc DPS on our server in teams anymore. Every comp that is running on Harb would destroy a Sorc DPS.

 

My team is best at running pressure comps and the best pressure comps is running at least double carb. It would be stupid not to. Regardless, you might be correct but till I test this out myself I have no other comment on the subject.

 

 

 

Carbonize comps are literally meta. We have yet to see a comp that is better that wins consistently. I have yet to play Vara’s double mez, triple interrupt team but that is the only team that might be an issue (other than mirror).

 

 

 

http://imgur.com/rcIgLLe

 

Here is a parse form a team ranked game. Numbers are slightly higher then you believe, using average and crit average. I have looked at multiple other parses from my games. When I needed to cast heal majority of the ones I looked at +9 minutes long parses, in regs my UM crit for 100%. Again this is because of auto crit but just think about that, when you need to cast heal majority of the time it will be a crit. Other then that you are keeping people up with Infusion/Kolto Wave/HoTs/Cloud.

This is also me with wearing half power and dropping crit because of this mez comp I was facing. So my crit is a little low.

 

 

 

If they left me freecast in any of my team games I would be pulling over 8K HPS every round. I kid you not. Also auto Crit appear a lot more often then you believe. I think it’s every 30 seconds or so. I don’t think the way to go is to give operatives interrupt immunity because of how superior our AoE heals are. Our single target heals aren’t that weak at all you just have to work around it. For example, when you are whitebarried do the tank/healer switch to get out a free cast heal without interrupts, cc dps on you and cast heal and/or bait interrupts with other abilities. If these strategies didn’t work I wouldn’t be having the success in teams that we are having verse what I would consider, some of the best players in the game.

 

 

 

Buffing our single target heals would help but Operative healing is the problem here. I will agree that Sorcs are a little over tuned and easy to play (maybe a 5% nerf to their healing) but Operatives are still incredibility strong. That’s why I’m super defensive when it comes down to this discussion. I’m not going along willingly to this "underpowered operative" bandwagon because I just don’t see Operative healing being terrible by any means.

 

I was talking about tank tunnel with three pts, two of which are ap, on e dot sorc+ sorcheal. sorry for being retarded, I meant one ap, one pt tank, one tunneling class (sorc/mara/dotsniper).

[kissingaiur]

I was talking about tank tunnel with three pts, two of which are ap, on e dot sorc+ sorcheal. sorry for being retarded, I meant one ap, one pt tank, one tunneling class (sorc/mara/dotsniper).

 

Ohhhh. We have played this before. All the tank needs to do is LoS and kite a little and it's GG. Anyone letting the other teams DPS freecast will hate themselves.

[aristrokratie]

Because I don't want this to get any longer that it needs to I won't quote for now.

Hottie, let me clarify my standpoint once and for all: I think Ops are fine on their own. Sorcs are op but ops are fine.

There are however some situations in which the operative is definetly lacking of ways to get around stuff. I can heal through double ap burst, tho it leaves me sweatting;)

The current meta is ops unfriendly so it seems less good though this is not the case.

 

The problem currently I have with ops (as absurd as it sounds, this has never happened to me pre 4.0 when facing similar comps) is that when I am constantly whitebarred and interrupted (to stress that out: there was once a match I could not get a cast off for 17 seconds because of how carbonize, low cd interrupts and knockbacks work)

I lack the ability of healing a tunneled tank in certain matchups. Tanks seem a lot more squishy now and the fact that op single target healing is so preventable is not helping either.

Trust me it is everything but funny for our non fotm setup of sin (deception) ap and tank pt plus me as a healer facing dotspread sorc.

I can keep up with aoe and pressure damage on my group or I can keep up my tank. Both is not possible.

I pulled 5k hps but my tank simply dropped lower and lower and lower until his defensives were all gone.

 

I am using waves followed by kolto pack, both interrupted, for second hardstun, third interrupt, trying to cast again, sorc speed inkicks me and ports back. (I told my mates he had not much left but the sorc could not die:rolleyes:)

I think that you should not be interrupted more that twice in a row. We need something against chain interrupts.

 

Back to my suggestion on buffing UM and changing kolto pack:

Our healing is non bursty, I know that and I am fine with it. Auto crit happens not all 30 seconds (but it should) because of rng. I tried it out on fleet and it took me 23 seconds to proc it... I do not know why this is the case but it did not get better at other attemps...

 

UM should be a strong bursty heal without autocit as well, while staying at it's current level of power on crit. just remove it from our surge bonus and buff it by 20%, done.

Kolto pack has always been a key ability to keep targets up. I don't like the way it is right now as it is just a ''use it all the time ability'' pre 3.3 you had to think ahead when to use it, it was proactive and I liked that. Now it is more or less reactive.

Edited November 10, 2015 by aristrokratie

[TiTaNsFaN]

I really don't understand the argument here. Hottie is running with double carb setup which has been meta and OP for ages now. There is no circumstance in arena even with that setup where you would WANT to take the op healer over the sorc healer. You are simply gimping your team.

 

Can OP healer work at a high level (with an already OP double carb lineup?) sure. Would you ever take an op over a sorc to heal in the same lineup? god no.

 

Op DPS is even worse off in the trash tier.

 

Granted 99% of harb is trash at pvp anyway, but still.

[csant]

I really don't understand the argument here. Hottie is running with double carb setup which has been meta and OP for ages now. There is no circumstance in arena even with that setup where you would WANT to take the op healer over the sorc healer. You are simply gimping your team.

 

Can OP healer work at a high level (with an already OP double carb lineup?) sure. Would you ever take an op over a sorc to heal in the same lineup? god no.

 

Op DPS is even worse off in the trash tier.

 

Granted 99% of harb is trash at pvp anyway, but still.

 

you aren't saying nothing people don't already know. that's why you hardly see OP healers running around doing any good. Hottie and her team are really good and good for them for making it work and not going the cookie cutter route. Even though she is running with double PT. =P

 

And saying 99% of harb is trash at pvp... is just a moronic thing to say. Please enlighten us on how to play currently... wants us all to roll sorc and pts? *******

[kissingaiur]

I really don't understand the argument here. Hottie is running with double carb setup which has been meta and OP for ages now. There is no circumstance in arena even with that setup where you would WANT to take the op healer over the sorc healer. You are simply gimping your team.

 

Can OP healer work at a high level (with an already OP double carb lineup?) sure. Would you ever take an op over a sorc to heal in the same lineup? god no.

 

Op DPS is even worse off in the trash tier.

 

Granted 99% of harb is trash at pvp anyway, but still.

 

I don't understand why every time I talk about my team and ranked everyone always responses so passive aggressively. *sigh*

 

Yeah we have an Operative Healer. Would it be easier to run a Sorc? Of course. It's 100% easier and FOTM. It's always easy to go FOTM but we are making what we have work. The fact that we are winning games at all shows that Operative isn't terrible at all vs. Sorcs.

 

Could be be our comp? Maybe. Could be be weak with other comps? Maybe. But realize everything is depended on comp. Once you lose you switch comps till you win. When you find a comp that you win majority of the matches with you play that. I don't really know what you are trying to argue.

 

So you are free to group with Sorcs, we will be here making Operative work in the same situations. That to me is fun and the best way to improve. I like it because it's hard.

 

Saying that my server is terrible is always a bold statement. People keep saying that yet which ones come over here and put their money where their mouth is? Zero. Words are just words.

 

Cheers.

[ChaosIsGolden]

Nice arguments, and cheers on staying with your op, even if were no longer the op healer, personally I love healing on my op/scoundrel and hate healing on my sage/sorc (I love lightening too much.) But to the operative who created this thread, as a few have said were not made for burst healing, op/scoundrels are great at keeping people up in health because of our dots. Does it suck sometimes, yes, but honestly if you want to play a burst healer switch to a sorc/sage, they have good survivability and are decent burst healers.

 

But my best advice is to play the character and class you enjoy, or better yet find a group of people to pvp with. I out heal sorc/sages all the time on my scoundrel, because my friends are keeping people away from me so I can keep them alive.

[kcon]

I would say putting a cast immunity for 6 secs or an instant proc Kolto Injection tied to adrenaline probe. That would give the Op a nice burst heal but on a two min CD. i think it would balance out pretty nicely.

[knowmyname]

Let's talk about this for a second.

 

2 Hots stacked on a target tick for roughly: 1.9-3.6k (Non-Crit/Crit)

Surgical Probe: 3.5-7.6k

Kolto Injection: 8-19k

 

(this is without any relic procs or healing increase procs)

 

If you healed a person who had 2 HoTs on them -> Injection -> Surgical: 13.5K-30.2K~ Heal

 

Since gear 4.0 everyone is stacking crit we crit, a lot. These are just the rough numbers, I have seen operatives crit their injection for 30K and I have crit for over 20K. If you add cloud to that as well that's another 900-1.5K. You can literally heal someone for half their HP.

 

agreed, we are in a good spot, not great but good.

2 HoTs + Infusion + Recouperative Nanotech + Surgical Probe = our big burst heal combination. it sucks down energy but all 3 HoTs are active for a few seconds and as you pop off Injection (or SP) the heal buff of Recoup Nano is still active. that's always been my big secret, we are a HoT class and our job is to maintain constant heal over time.

 

if this guy wants burst heals, he needs to roll a sorc/sage. operative has never been a bursty heal spec. we have other utilities we can provide.

 

most often due to so many healers in a WZ to begin with I head to the off-node and steal it. then with our HoTs, cleanse, movement abilities, and stuns I am able to defend for much longer than other stealth classes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3YdusXgim4&list=PLHUVjJ925gvkwvecjaHhx1dnLkvF46fMP

I cannot count how many times i loaded into a WZ and other players cheer when they see me. they know i can provide so much more than healing. im an objective player. i dont heal to put up big numbers but to win the match.

Edited November 16, 2015 by knowmyname

[Atbll]

Nice arguments, and cheers on staying with your op, even if were no longer the op healer, personally I love healing on my op/scoundrel and hate healing on my sage/sorc (I love lightening too much.) But to the operative who created this thread, as a few have said were not made for burst healing, op/scoundrels are great at keeping people up in health because of our dots. Does it suck sometimes, yes, but honestly if you want to play a burst healer switch to a sorc/sage, they have good survivability and are decent burst healers.

 

But my best advice is to play the character and class you enjoy, or better yet find a group of people to pvp with. I out heal sorc/sages all the time on my scoundrel, because my friends are keeping people away from me so I can keep them alive.

In my eyes these hots need a decent buff. Even with 2 probes and cloud on my healing target. I can nearly negate the damage of dot sorc. That means there is no healing just negating the dmg. My kolto heals for 15 k average on a 1.9 casting timer. Most of the DD classes got a least one skill that damages harder instantly(dont speak about Powertechs where nearly all abilitiies hit that hard). I spoke to some of the best pve guild on my server and even in their eyes the operative healer is the worst of the 3 heal classes. Im maybe not the best op healer out there but i still have enough knowledge that this class needs a buff in some ways to improve his healing capability.

[Wimbleton]

An ability that takes all hots on a target and finishes them healing instantly for what they would have healed over time, 20 sec cooldown, requires TA.

[aristrokratie]

In my eyes these hots need a decent buff. Even with 2 probes and cloud on my healing target. I can nearly negate the damage of dot sorc. That means there is no healing just negating the dmg. My kolto heals for 15 k average on a 1.9 casting timer. Most of the DD classes got a least one skill that damages harder instantly(dont speak about Powertechs where nearly all abilitiies hit that hard). I spoke to some of the best pve guild on my server and even in their eyes the operative healer is the worst of the 3 heal classes. Im maybe not the best op healer out there but i still have enough knowledge that this class needs a buff in some ways to improve his healing capability.

 

Nah, not that drastic buffs required for op to be really good.

UM should, while I think the amount it crits for is perfect, heal for more non crit, KP should have a stronger hot component. That is it. Maybe shift the focus of the spec more back to the roots ....uuhm hots, because I do not like the spam casting style.

 

But I agree, the kolto probes have become a lot weaker:

level 55: 1.15k/30k health

level 60: 1.3k/40k health

level 65: 1.9k/70k health

 

Total healing per health point (per tick)

lvl 55:0.0383333...

lvl 60:0.0325 (decrease of about 15%)

lvl 65:0.0271... (decrease of about 15% again)

 

So hots have decreased in effectiveness by a lot. But keep in your mind they crit more often than back in rothc or sor. All in all I think it is justified to buff the hots and nerf kolto waves since it is really strong (but should not in my opinion as it makes us a stacked healer which I do not wanna be)

[aristrokratie]

ops, it is actually 1.7-8k now per tick so even less Edited December 5, 2015 by aristrokratie