Darkwords Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 All Ops/fps need to be made so you don't need tanks to complete. Too difficult to find groups due to tank shortage and often when you do find them, along with them comes an attitude. Sick of it. Perhaps keep the HM ops requiring a tank but not everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlayLoud Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 If you don't to have to wait for a tank, you can run Tactical FPs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDR_WeedKnight Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 All Ops/fps need to be made so you don't need tanks to complete. Too difficult to find groups due to tank shortage and often when you do find them, along with them comes an attitude. Sick of it. Perhaps keep the HM ops requiring a tank but not everything else. Sure just kill off the profession i choose in this game good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkwords Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 Sure just kill off the profession i choose in this game good idea. yep, sounds good to me...waiting forever for your-holiness is getting old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toraak Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 If you took out tanks, then you'd be completely taking out the trinity system. Why not then take out healers? My personal Opinion is to keep the Ops needing all roles. Tanks/healers/dps in place as they are. Operations are supposed to be the group challenge in this game, and by removing a role that is currently needed to do them would take out much of the challenge needed because they'd then have to nerf the Ops more then they already have in 4.0. This would be a terrible Idea. Solution: if your having issues finding a tank, make one yourself, and try to learn to be a good one. Yes it's a different mind set to tank correctly, and you need much more situational awareness, but when you do go back to your dps or healer it'll make you that much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox_The_Beast Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) All Ops/fps need to be made so you don't need tanks to complete. Too difficult to find groups due to tank shortage and often when you do find them, along with them comes an attitude. Sick of it. Perhaps keep the HM ops requiring a tank but not everything else. This is why I've always been against Tacticals... They make ppl feel as if roles are all the same and unnecessary. You know, I could call what you wrote above an "attitude". Gimme what I want, I don't care about others. OP, the problem is not the shortage of Tanks in itself. Sure, fewer ppl run Tanks than DPS, but that's not the whole problem. The real problem is, that in my experience as someone who at times delves deeply into Ops and at times stays away from them, the way Tanks are treated is quite bad. Especially as of late, after 12Exp, after the growth of Tactical FPs, and after the huge amount of ppl getting to top level without a clue of how to play their character, ppl don't even care to learn from wipes. Especially in Pugs, it's fairly easy to mess things up at times. And it's even easier to see who messed up. And how. However, in Pugs ppl also don't behave all that nicely. Let me make an example on why I, at least, don't run Tanks for Ops often at all... Last time I ran a Tank in an Op was a fair bit before KotFE. I was on my Guardian Tank and the Op was a Dread Fortress. Pug, of course. I knew what to do, how to do it and what was expected of me. I worked as well as I could with positioning, dealing with damage, usage of DCDs and threat management, but my co-Tank was clearly new to both the role and the Op. Explanations went a long way, luckily, and props to the guy, he listened to advice. But whenever I took a moment to explain tactics, 3 of the other 6 ppl kept writing messages like "Pull, dammit, we don't need this bull****!". Sorry, you need Tactics, if you want to survive a boss, mate. Now, if that was a rare event, I wouldn't even be mad. Sure, I can understand the desire to see how things end. However, that's become the norm, at least in my experience. Tanks already are blamed 50% of the times a group wipes, be it on FPs or Ops, but the good ones are always ready to address the real problem. 90% of times a DPS standing in stupid, or not following a proper rotation. Same with Healers, the good ones know where to point the finger to locate the problem. However, when they point the finger and try to give advice, quite often those who are not putting up the numbers they should get pretty... unpolite, let's say. The climate becomes heavy, and usually badmouthing, offending and naming happens. Group breaks. The end. The real problem for Ops, is having to put up with ppl of that kind, which apparently is increasing in numbers to insane amounts, especially as of late! With that premise why would I want to run Pug Ops as a Tank, just to be either called names because I do my job, or lose the lockout because the team breaks the moment someone is asked to do things properly? With that sort of incentive, I'd rather run my DPS character, fill the gaps, and gear up by "collateral" drops, purchasing stuff on my main and moving it around... Now, you may call that an "attitude"... But consider I'm no superhero. I'm a player, like everyone else in a team. Either we all do our part, or we don't pass the trial. I can put down my "attitude", if necessary. But I will do so only if the others do the same aswell. I'm no punchingball. If I get attacked, I respond. EDIT: I meant no offense, this came out much harsher than I wanted it to be... Still, consider that to get to this point it takes some good amount of frustration. Think carefully of what you say, ppl, before writing something... Please! Edited November 7, 2015 by Cox_The_Beast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec_Fortescue Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) All Ops/fps need to be made so you don't need tanks to complete. Too difficult to find groups due to tank shortage and often when you do find them, along with them comes an attitude. Sick of it. Perhaps keep the HM ops requiring a tank but not everything else. Friend, I come with solution: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=851498 Skip the queue, skip the "attitude", skip all the random bads. If you screw up then you can only blame yourself! Yet again I see people telling others to roll tank if you're tired of waiting for one. You shouldn't be forced to play what you do not enjoy and my guide can help you. I am also sick of dumb tanks who vote kick you if you say something they dislike or aggro trash first in EASY flashpoints without being anywhere close to wipe possibility. And everyone else accepts it because the tank threatens to leave and they dont want to wait for hours. Love your companions. /Spit on tanks with "attitude." That's easily the majority of them in group finder. They are well aware that they can get away with most stuff because damage dealers are frustrated with long queues. They not irreplaceable anymore! Take advantage of it. Edited November 7, 2015 by Alec_Fortescue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthZaul Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 It would have been useful to have the 16 man group finder back for the first few months while there are 100s of DPS and a severe lack of tanks, then go back to 8 man when a bunch of people quit. But instead you just gotta suck it up or roll a tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DataBeaver Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Since you recognize lack of tanks being the issue, why not roll one yourself and contribute to the solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jstgetitovrwith Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 OP, the issue isn't with the ops needing tanks, it's with there being enough incentive for tanks to do them with pugs, most tanks I know rarely if ever do stuff with randoms since the chance theyll get abused or yelled at is high, even for little things like not knowing some obscure strat the raid lead wants to enforce and so on. It's much more forgiving to queue or do ops as a healer or dps these days since outgoing damage is minimal, and as a dps you can just hide your bad among the other 3 people's numbers. As a tank though, every little transgression is there for the whole raid to see. This cause a lot of people to just avoid them unless they're with friends, since why would they submit themselves to what can be described as a hostile and toxic environment? If you want to fix this issue realistically, start being nicer and less abusive to new tanks, allow them the time to be taught fight by someone in the group who is happy to explain the mechanics, even better, be that person. Stop treating it like your time is the only time that matters, and realise that if you want tanks to keep doing pugs, they need to feel as at ease as you do on your dps in the instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterAtreides Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) ^I taught that tank hm df/dp at tier...was good fun. I'm a tank, I have six republic side and I queue fairly often alone or with guildies. I have been in groups where I tank with a very new tank and I whisper him and explain things. I have also been in groups where my co-tank buddy felt the need to do everything himself and get us both yelled at for dumb stuff. And I've been in groups where I do all the work and get yelled at. I admittedly have an attitude in these groups for obvious reasons. I rather enjoy taking my stories back to my guildies to laugh at. We at least figure out which guilds and which individuals we don't want to run with EVER. There are a shortage of tanks. Tanking can be a steep learning curve for some and learning through group finder is a terrible way to learn tanking and ops but for some it's all they have. I generally try and give tanks the benefit of the doubt and assist them where I can. OP, you need to realize tanking in pugs can be stressful. Being nice goes a long way to ensuring that tanks continue to queue. It really isn't just your time they're wasting, its theirs too if you're unwilling to be patient with them. It is just storymode but if you're unwilling to give them the time needed to figure things out, you're only going to cause yourself distress. Edited November 8, 2015 by MasterAtreides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lodinn Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 I am also sick of dumb tanks who vote kick you if you say something they dislike or aggro trash first in EASY flashpoints without being anywhere close to wipe possibility. And everyone else accepts it because the tank threatens to leave and they dont want to wait for hours. Well that's overreacting but I tell you what. Most tanks, like 90% of them, tend to attempt harder group content than mentioned EASY flashpoints. If you meet a tank in FP there are odds that it's either tank for whom this content is really easy and to attempt to kick you he has to be in a real bad mood OR it's someone who's not that much confident in tanking. You know, the type of guy who stops before each trash pack trying to figure out how to pull it. And your chainpulling will SERIOUSLY piss him off. I know quite a few guys who either abandoned their attempts to tank or are getting on a grip with it much slower than they could. GJ. As per OP... I'm semi-speechless. Whoever mentioned the attitude, you're damn right. It's way easier to point fingers on tanks. I bet if I'd ask everyone on StarParse or something and yell at DPS who are not pulling numbers... And heals who are not pulling numbers/offdpsing enough. And ultimatively kick baddies because time they save by not waiting for tacts they consume on slacking... Huh, I'd say if people would run this approach we'll end up with either shortage of dps/heals or regular tactics explanations for the majority of the fights in no time. I love tanking. For the majority of time I don't mind joining just about random pugs on a tank, I somewhat suffer from pugs taking FOREVER cause of low dps (well yeah, just a couple of days ago Sparky enraged twice in a row in GF pug, i even respecced but another dps got killed by a door boss so she enraged twice... Sorcheal asked everyone on StarParse just for me to find his 16 APM and 0 dps done throughout the fight on a second pull when he knew we have dps issues). My eyes bleed when i see VERY.IMPORTANT.DPS sitting amidst some fire **** spamming basic attack anyway. Given amount of things tank has to pay attention to in SM ops there's nothing else but sightseeing. And the sights are usually not very pretty. That's why I often just don't feel like joining on a tank, besides, even if you solve the problem of waiting forever for group there are ops where seemingly nothing could go wrong (and I considered Ravs to be one hehe) or where you can cover up most of the group mistakes as a tank (like DF), but there are mechanics more intensive for DPS than anyone else. We wiped on terror just yesterday cause some guy kept tunneling boss, DPS didnt spread properly and were not killing stuff fast enough so Irregularities coupled with the boss enrage wiped us (and oper healer kept not stealthrezzing even tho i poked him in a chat). I mean... The amount of badbadbad DPS in pugs in insane. If I'd go badmouth about them as much as you guys do towards tanks, in reality I'd be called elitist jerk or a tank who feels so special only because he tanks. Ahem. Good tanking + good DPS + good heals = smooth run, which barely exists (frankly, i believe typically 2 of those 3 are somewhat bad, it's either good tank + clueless one, or facepalm dps doing every single possible mistake, or heals who don't know where their green buttons are. Or cleanse, even better). Bad tanking + good DPS + good heals = run taking forever cause of explanations OR a lot of BM Bad tanking + bad DPS (heals does not matter) = a lot of bm cause everyone blames everyone Good tanking + bad dps / bad heals = silent pain OR a lot of BM between heals/dps + blaming tanks for being elitists Seriously, you force tanks who stay and don't abandon the prof to constantly improve cause it's either that or being yelled at, and some tanks are indeed hysteroid and arrogant, but most either learn or cease tanking. What do you have in return? Kekeke I'll sit in fire and spam my basic attack cause I'm so important? ANY capable tanks tend to stay out of pugs where something can go wrong and it's not obviously a dps issue (=enrage, telling dps they have to interrupt or position properly or something often leads just to 'w00t ima dps u moron wot interrupt'. Way too often). Hope you can see why. Another example given, I'm not any good with EC proper tacts, but there is NO WAY I can force DPS to push them more or less evenly. There's NO WAY I can outdps 3-4 dps, even bad ones. That's just painful unrewarding wiping. I may know your name when I join your pug and it most likely means some positive experience in a pug. But given I almost never leave before pug is disbanded, I'm essentially risking wasting a couple of hours of my life. You will have your tank in ops, np, but will you able to pass it afterwards unless all instakills are removed and you'll have jesus droid by your side? Experience tells me problem is somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastiebock Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Technically you don't have to have one...look at fps....not sure how some ops would go though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lodinn Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Technically you don't have to have one...look at fps....not sure how some ops would go though. In all SM ops you can go without a tank, maybe except EC and Ravagers as Master & Blaster encounter got buffed even on sm. Vast majority of bosses are survivable with jugg or pt dps taking tanking role. Doesn't mean there is no such role at all. Someone has to have control over the fight flow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khristiann Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Friend, I come with solution: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=851498 Skip the queue, skip the "attitude", skip all the random bads. If you screw up then you can only blame yourself! Yet again I see people telling others to roll tank if you're tired of waiting for one. You shouldn't be forced to play what you do not enjoy and my guide can help you. I am also sick of dumb tanks who vote kick you if you say something they dislike or aggro trash first in EASY flashpoints without being anywhere close to wipe possibility. And everyone else accepts it because the tank threatens to leave and they dont want to wait for hours. Love your companions. /Spit on tanks with "attitude." That's easily the majority of them in group finder. They are well aware that they can get away with most stuff because damage dealers are frustrated with long queues. They not irreplaceable anymore! Take advantage of it. Well said as a healer I try to always thank tanks. they do get to much blame and when everything goes smooth it's well they did their job. So Thanks to all you kick but tanks out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KBSIP Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 please do, anything that accelerates getting this game into the grave so we can get a new star wars RPG would be lovely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flingor Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Put it simple: - Tanks run with their guilds and do not with random groups unless we need some conquest points. - We do not like DDs who pull the entire room and then blame the tank - Camping in voids and blaming the tank for not holding the aggro is a bad idea - Nobody cares about your DPS when the group dies - Do not whine about the lack of tanks in pugs, experience the disaster by rolling a tank by yourself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isunflex Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) no comment. Edited November 17, 2015 by isunflex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlixMV Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 All Ops/fps need to be made so you don't need tanks to complete. Too difficult to find groups due to tank shortage and often when you do find them, along with them comes an attitude. Sick of it. Perhaps keep the HM ops requiring a tank but not everything else. ...and people wonder why tanks come with an attitude. 0/10, try harder, OP. Signed, Tank 4 Lyfe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordsomtaaw Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I play tank 70% of the toons i create in 9-10 different mmo's. and the one thing i truely hate is to pug. dps is always crying that i'm too slow no matter how fast i go, dps'ers thinking they are tanks and pulling when they shouldn't, being in the wrong spot (don't stand in the flames). so why should i or any tank bother to pug? it's best to find a guild and run with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeCKSEgai Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 If you don't to have to wait for a tank, you can run Tactical FPs. You actually want a tank in the current state of tacs. As for OPs, it only makes sense they'd be ncessary if we're relying on that trinity sytem. (Not that i'm fond of the trinity tank/heal/damage but they have a hard enough time balancing around that, let alone pure damage teams etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banegio Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) While we are at it, can we also remove the other barriers, namely the gear stats, the sub fee, the system requirements too (why not let me play on my mono gameboy!) Edited November 18, 2015 by Banegio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 All Ops/fps need to be made so you don't need tanks to complete. Too difficult to find groups due to tank shortage and often when you do find them, along with them comes an attitude. Sick of it. Perhaps keep the HM ops requiring a tank but not everything else. after 4.0 didn't struggle to find ops as dps or heal why not just ask BW to let u enter ops pick up the gear without any boss fights or trash its easy to find group as any class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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