Communication and Bioware...why this continues to be a problem

[Jadescythe]

I suppose it depends on what their intention with communication is. Clearly they don't want player feedback on their choices or they would release information on level sync, alliances, companions, etc. more than a month before release. There is obviously no way those systems were going to change at that point in development.

 

Of the people that I know were in closed beta for KotFE, I wouldn't say any of them were representative of the player base. They all play for significant amounts of time, don't participate in multiple aspects of the game, and aren't particularly competitive in PvE or PvP to offer expert advice either. If you don't have a representative sample of players to provide feedback and you don't ask for feedback from the community, then you just hope that whatever you do is right. Which leads to releasing as few details as possible until right before launch in the hopes that anything negative doesn't impact sales.

[Pagy]

Pagy, you and I agree on a topic.

 

I am sure you are likely as shocked as I am

drinks! revels! lol

[Jadescythe]

why are you mentioning it again?

 

you've already made the same post in THIS thread, the same you have in all of the others.

 

please stop speaking on behalf of the community

please stop dismissing everyone that disagrees with you as a "minority"

please stop trying to dictate what does and doesnt merit discussion on a discussion forum

please stop clicking on threads to only start filling them up with angry and dismissive posts and just attacking people.

 

Only he can play the game and post on the forums as well. Everyone else is incapable of multitasking. And he has to remind everyone of the forum rules all the times in the hopes that anyone with thoughts that differ from his aren't heard, but he can keep posting the same junk in every thread, related or not because reasons.

[RogerApple]

why are you mentioning it again?

 

you've already made the same post in THIS thread, the same you have in all of the others.

 

please stop speaking on behalf of the community

please stop dismissing everyone that disagrees with you as a "minority"

please stop trying to dictate what does and doesnt merit discussion on a discussion forum

please stop clicking on threads to only start filling them up with angry and dismissive posts and just attacking people.

 

The majority of players HAS said its fine. Now only in threads. In polls. etc

 

They are the minority a vocal one but still minority

 

I'm not trying to dictate what is a discussion. Claiming that I am just shows you are divorced from reality. I never

said you couldn't. I asked why you needed five thousand threads about it. That's a legit question.

 

I'm filling with my own insight so misguided only not thinking that everyone thinks this. You are punishing players who don't want to pay 60 token. You are supporting making leveling even more slower then it needs to me these are legit concerns.

 

I get it you are so wrapped up and obsessed with overturning their choices. You are literally freaking out at my legit concerns that the majority agrees its fine and that with people able to buy 60 tokens. There's no need to slow down the leveling experience. This is a legit response its my concern if you refuse to accept it. I can see you are freaking out that their not acting on what you say...therefore they must not be listening..any logical person can see holes in that.

 

Have a good day though.

[Rafaman]

So... with all due respect LA, you weren't here, and I'm not sure you were close enough to the situation to know what was communicated.

 

Quite honestly, it was very clear what level sync was going to be like when they showed it off in a live stream. Eric entered a heroic facerolled a few elites and demonstrated what a non-factor this was going to be.

 

Frankly I don't know how much clearer that could of have been. He talked about it, posted the stream, and talked about it some more explaining how it would work.

 

Communication was not an issue with level-sync, what was an issue is that some people wanted it to be option irrespective of what it was like. To each his own I suppose, but now, it is clear that it was and is a non-issue.

 

So while I appreciate your opinion and contributions, I think that the reason you left the game is still clouding your judgment. Communication by any dev could always be better, but level sync is not the case and point.

[Transcendent]

Personally I feel they handled the exploit/CSM situation rather badly from start to finish, and obviously level sync promotion. That is not the only example, but just a few from my perspective.

 

CSM, the lead up to KotFE - simply posting blogs and doing a few live streams (at random times depending on location in the world) and then not following up on that. Not listening to the concerns of players (or acknowledging them unless it pertains to the Cartel Market) on issues such as Level Sync / Crafting changes etc etc.

 

Pretty much the whole communication strategy for KotFE to be fair.

 

Also there were the exploits we've seen from 3.0 onwards and how those have been handled (in the worst cases such as the Ravagers Exploit very leniently and in the case of the Temple Chair heavily over the top). The lack of action on any number of issues within the game and the lack of acknowledgement of the problems.

 

Actually, I think I'll stop there, the more I think about the comedy of errors that is BioWare, communication and SWTOR, the more pissed off I get with them. Just reinforces the many reasons behind me unsubscribing.

[LordArtemis]

Sure they do. But not many of them make MMO's or video games in general. I don't know if that's a blindspot that game companies have or if there's some reason we just don't understand behind it.

 

 

 

Perhaps they did, but there was some reason why they couldn't tell us more. Since I don't work in that industry I can't comment, but I know in mine we're pretty tight lipped about what's coming out next year.

 

The issue I have, is there is an assumption inherent in this, that says we deserve more information, and Bioware is doing something wrong by not giving it to us. Without ever seeming to consider that maybe they're telling us everything they can.

 

I'm not claiming they are, I'm just pointing out that if everyone in a given industry does things the same way, there may be a very good reason for doing so, one that we aren't aware of.

 

I wanted to touch on your last point, but didn't want to edit your post...it deserves to be quoted in entirety for context IMO.

 

I woudn't say MY issue...and I say mine, in this particular case, is necessarilly that I or others DESERVED more information. My issue is that level sync deserves a fair shake IMO.

 

Some may not agree, others may hate the feature and that is fine. But I expect most folks are probably ok with it (just an assumption of course) and outside of the game, around the net, it seems most folks ARE MOST DEFINITELY NOT. At least based on the inaccurate and biased feedback that I see around the net.

 

The problem is that certain fallacies with respect to the feature have taken root, and that is very hard to reverse. Bioware could have at least mitigated this by simply discussing this particular change in the open, and perhaps even PROMOTING it.

 

So, I take issue with their lack of ability to understand their current and potential player base, in that this feature OBVIOUSLY needed some promotion in order to mitigate any negative movement against it.

 

Of course, that is only if you agree that folks see it as a major change. That is certainly debatable.

[Pagy]

The majority of players HAS said its fine. Now only in threads. In polls. etc

 

They are the minority a vocal one but still minority

 

I'm not trying to dictate what is a discussion. Claiming that I am just shows you are divorced from reality. I never

said you couldn't. I asked why you needed five thousand threads about it. That's a legit question.

 

I'm filling with my own insight so misguided only not thinking that everyone thinks this. You are punishing players who don't want to pay 60 token. You are supporting making leveling even more slower then it needs to me these are legit concerns.

 

I get it you are so wrapped up and obsessed with overturning their choices. You are literally freaking out at my legit concerns that the majority agrees its fine and that with people able to buy 60 tokens. There's no need to slow down the leveling experience. This is a legit response its my concern if you refuse to accept it. I can see you are freaking out that their not acting on what you say...therefore they must not be listening..any logical person can see holes in that.

 

Have a good day though.

i suppose i should use spoiler tags, but the majority of swtor players dont ever post here.

 

making any conclusion regarding what the "majority" think is completely pointless. and yet you keep doing it. are you aware of the concept of "confirmation bias"?

 

when you are telling people they should "go away" or "stop posting" its the very definition of being dismissive. this thread is about communication and already you're raging about companions like you do in every single thread.

 

*i already feel guilty for derailing things

Edited November 2, 2015 by Pagy

[LordArtemis]

So... with all due respect LA, you weren't here, and I'm not sure you were close enough to the situation to know what was communicated.

 

Thats absolutely fair. I was lurking though.

 

Quite honestly, it was very clear what level sync was going to be like when they showed it off in a live stream. Eric entered a heroic facerolled a few elites and demonstrated what a non-factor this was going to be.

 

Frankly I don't know how much clearer that could of have been. He talked about it, posted the stream, and talked about it some more explaining how it would work.

 

Though that certainly is communication, that is hardly promotion IMO. I feel they needed to do more.

 

Communication was not an issue with level-sync, what was an issue is that some people wanted it to be option irrespective of what it was like. To each his own I suppose, but now, it is clear that it was and is a non-issue.

 

On this we agree. Though I do think aggro range could use an adjustment, I find the entire system a great change, and I expect most were pleasantly surprised. Certainly relieved.

 

So while I appreciate your opinion and contributions, I think that the reason you left the game is still clouding your judgment. Communication by any dev could always be better, but level sync is not the case and point.

 

Fair enough, you could be right. I have to concede that.

[Thunderstriken]

I agree with all of this...this is certainly an informed point. However, not only is it irrelevant to this particular discussion, it is also a common error that you seem to be making more often.

 

It's a lot easier to dismiss something altogether than try to refute it isn't it? It's the most common tactic in nearly every thread on this and every other gaming forum. However, while you can attempt to dismiss my arguments, I think I will prove quite a bit more difficult to dismiss.

 

You state my points are irrelevant to this discussion, yet the discussion is rather stringently framed. The title of the thread is Communication and Bioware...why this continues to be a problem, which rather succinctly states that their is a problem with the way Bioware communicates. My replies have all been precisely on the topic of Bioware having no obligation to communicate at all.

 

In the OP you quite vehemently opine, "But most of all, and I really can't stress this enough, IT IS TIME TO CONSIDER YOUR CUSTOMERS WHEN MAKING CHANGES. Talk to us. Tell us what you are planning. Solicit feedback. Let us spread the word."

 

Everything I have said has been in direct rebuttal to that very theme. Bioware has no obligation to inform you of their intentions nor explain to you their decisions. They make a game, the way they want to make it. It is your choice to whether or not to play what they decided to make.

 

Do you feel every financial transaction you make entitles you to be informed of the company's future plans? Do you feel like you should be allowed to discuss upcoming can designs with Coke? Do you feel like Chevy should hold off on releasing a new model until they've sought your opinion?

 

The point you are missing, that is exactly on topic, is that SWTOR might not be the game for you. They might not be making it for you and rather than insisting that they refashion the game into the game you want, perhaps you should move along and find a game closer to your expectations.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Thunderstriken

[LordArtemis]

*i already feel guilty for derailing things

 

I don't care. I am just happy we agree ON SOMETHING. Restores my faith in the world

Edited November 2, 2015 by LordArtemis

[RogerApple]

It's a lot easier to dismiss something altogether than try to refute it isn't it? It's the most common tactic in nearly every thread on this and every other gaming forum. However, while you can attempt to dismiss my arguments, I think I will prove quite a bit more difficult to dismiss.

 

You state my points are irrelevant to this discussion, yet the discussion is rather stringently framed. The title of the thread is Communication and Bioware...why this continues to be a problem, which rather succinctly states that their is a problem with the way Bioware communicates. My replies have all been precisely on the topic of Bioware having no obligation to communicate at all.

 

In the OP you quite vehemently opine, "But most of all, and I really can't stress this enough, IT IS TIME TO CONSIDER YOUR CUSTOMERS WHEN MAKING CHANGES. Talk to us. Tell us what you are planning. Solicit feedback. Let us spread the word."

 

Everything I have said has been in direct rebuttal to that very theme. Bioware has no obligation to inform you of their intentions nor explain to you their decisions. They make a game, the way they want to make it. It is your choice to whether or not to play what they decided to make.

 

Do you feel every financial transaction you make entitles you to be informed of the companie's future plans? Do you feel like you should be allowed to discuss upcoming can designs with Coke? Do you feel like Chevy should hold off on releasing a new model until they've sought your opinion?

 

The point you are missing, that is exactly on topic, is that SWTOR might not be the game for you. They might not be making it for you and rather than insisting that they refashion the game into the game you want, perhaps you should move along and find a game closer to your expectations.

 

This is a great post.

[VanorDM]

So, I take issue with their lack of ability to understand their current and potential player base, in that this feature OBVIOUSLY needed some promotion in order to mitigate any negative movement against it.

 

And again you're assuming that they don't understand the playerbase. Perhaps they understand it better then we do, and much better than we think they do.

 

Perhaps they knew exactly what would've happened if they said something sooner, and they wanted to avoid that? What if revealing it sooner would of been a bad choice? The thing is, without knowing exactly why Bioware didn't say more sooner, we can't really judge what happened.

 

It's easy to assume incompetence, but without more information that is exactly that, an assumption.

[ZionHalcyon]

It's a lot easier to dismiss something altogether than try to refute it isn't it? It's the most common tactic in nearly every thread on this and every other gaming forum. However, while you can attempt to dismiss my arguments, I think I will prove quite a bit more difficult to dismiss.

 

You state my points are irrelevant to this discussion, yet the discussion is rather stringently framed. The title of the thread is Communication and Bioware...why this continues to be a problem, which rather succinctly states that their is a problem with the way Bioware communicates. My replies have all been precisely on the topic of Bioware having no obligation to communicate at all.

 

In the OP you quite vehemently opine, "But most of all, and I really can't stress this enough, IT IS TIME TO CONSIDER YOUR CUSTOMERS WHEN MAKING CHANGES. Talk to us. Tell us what you are planning. Solicit feedback. Let us spread the word."

 

Everything I have said has been in direct rebuttal to that very theme. Bioware has no obligation to inform you of their intentions nor explain to you their decisions. They make a game, the way they want to make it. It is your choice to whether or not to play what they decided to make.

 

Do you feel every financial transaction you make entitles you to be informed of the companie's future plans? Do you feel like you should be allowed to discuss upcoming can designs with Coke? Do you feel like Chevy should hold off on releasing a new model until they've sought your opinion?

 

The point you are missing, that is exactly on topic, is that SWTOR might not be the game for you. They might not be making it for you and rather than insisting that they refashion the game into the game you want, perhaps you should move along and find a game closer to your expectations.

 

 

In other words, you're arguing to argue.

 

Again, I don't agree with Artemis on the game direction, but I think we can agree you are fighting to fight.

 

Look, by your logic extrapolated, no company anywhere, and let's just keep it to companies that sell goods and services in a retail space to compare apples to apples, is bound to keep their customers informed and in the loop about their products.

 

Fair.

 

But it is also logical, and proven by historical means, that companies that DO have good customer service where there is fierce competition in that space earn more trust, more brand loyalty over those that don't, and can even put those other companies out of business despite at times having higher prices.

 

The thing you seem to be lacking is common business sense.

 

 

Really, I never understood people like you, who fight for the right of companies to deliver inferior products and poor customer service. Well, unless you are a Comcast employee - then I think I get it.

[LordArtemis]

It's a lot easier to dismiss something altogether than try to refute it isn't it? It's the most common tactic in nearly every thread on this and every other gaming forum. However, while you can attempt to dismiss my arguments, I think I will prove quite a bit more difficult to dismiss.

 

I am not dismissing you....quite the contrary. I am simply pointing out my opinion that your opinion, in this respect, is unfounded with respect to the subject at hand. I hardly find that dismissive.

 

I would expect that folks in disagreement is quite common across the planet. I think it is hardly the sole domain of forums.

 

You state my points are irrelevant to this discussion, yet the discussion is rather stringently framed.

 

Fair enough on the framing, perhaps I did set a precedent, and that was unwise. And your particular point...that myopic views from gamers can cause unfair judgements against developers, while perfectly valid does not apply here because I am not suffering from a myopic gamer view, simply put.

 

The title of the thread is Communication and Bioware...why this continues to be a problem, which rather succinctly states that their is a problem with the way Bioware communicates.

 

....In my opinion of course, which means next to nothing.

My replies have all been precisely on the topic of Bioware having no obligation to communicate at all.

 

I would disagree with that. At least one of your replies was most likely with the intent of mitigating my opinion with respect to what I perceive as their error...as if such a thing needed to be done of course.

In the OP you quite vehemently opine, "But most of all, and I really can't stress this enough, IT IS TIME TO CONSIDER YOUR CUSTOMERS WHEN MAKING CHANGES. Talk to us. Tell us what you are planning. Solicit feedback. Let us spread the word."

 

Everything I have said has been in direct rebuttal to that very theme. Bioware has no obligation to inform you of their intentions nor explain to you their decisions. They make a game, the way they want to make it. It is your choice to whether or not to play what they decided to make.

 

Again, the point you make serves no purpose with respect to this thread for three concise reasons.

 

1) I am aware they have no obligation to do so, and to point that out is silly at best.

2) I am offering opinion. Qualification is not required. You are welcome to reject any conclusions I present.

3) I am aware, obviously, that I can play other games. Again, this is pointless to point out, as it has no bearing on whether or not I should offer my opinion

 

You seem to have decided to rebutt my contentions with overused platitudes and points that would be obvious to almost anyone. Yet you fail to refute anything I have said with your points IMO.

 

Do you feel every financial transaction you make entitles you to be informed of the companie's future plans?

 

Of course not.

 

Do you feel like you should be allowed to discuss upcoming can designs with Coke?

 

Whether I feel I should or not is irrelevant, again, you fail to grasp the very simple intent of this post. I am not sure where you are getting confused, but its a mystery to me. You certainly strike me as competent....are you being combative?

 

Do you feel like Chevy should hold off on releasing a new model until they've sought your opinion?

 

Lol. Are you aware that that is exactly what Chevy does with it's target demographic? Now you are either being deliberately combative and petty or simply fail to understand the most basic concepts of business in this respect.

 

I think it is likely the former.

 

he point you are missing, that is exactly on topic, is that SWTOR might not be the game for you.

 

The point you are missing, that is exactly pertinent, is that I am perfectly capable of making that decision without your feedback, and I will continue to offer feedback as I see fit. Hence, again, your lack of pertinence.

 

They might not be making it for you and rather than insisting that they refashion the game into the game you want, perhaps you should move along and find a game closer to your expectations.

 

....or perhaps I can continue to do what I have done since I started playing this game many moons ago.

 

But I thank you for offering your opinion. When you feel it is time to point out the pertinence of your point, I will welcome that discussion.

 

BTW, you might want to take a peek at my rather LONG post history and multiple suggestions....you might find that they ARE making the game that is getting closer to my expectations

Edited November 2, 2015 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

And again you're assuming that they don't understand the playerbase. Perhaps they understand it better then we do, and much better than we think they do.

 

Perhaps they knew exactly what would've happened if they said something sooner, and they wanted to avoid that? What if revealing it sooner would of been a bad choice? The thing is, without knowing exactly why Bioware didn't say more sooner, we can't really judge what happened.

 

It's easy to assume incompetence, but without more information that is exactly that, an assumption.

 

It's a fair point. I can't argue that this is not highly assumptive.

[g_land]

Perhaps you should take your own advice RA. I really think you need to take a breather.

 

FYI on Mr. Troll here, he seems to have accumulated 212 posts in the past two weeks and his earlier posts clearly indicate that he is a new player. This makes him a couple of things but one clear one is that he is on a crusade to either troll or belittle anyone who insults the new found shiny and has really no reference for how the game was actually before 4.0 as it would appear he only started playing 3-5 days before the new expansion hit live servers for early access. AKA, as he has dismissed so many others opinions, you are probably safe to dismiss his and not get into an insult contest which it seems is what this individual is constantly aiming for.

[LordArtemis]

This is a great post.

 

Lol. Your a regular riot RA.

[Thunderstriken]

And again you're assuming that they don't understand the playerbase. Perhaps they understand it better then we do, and much better than we think they do.

 

Perhaps they knew exactly what would've happened if they said something sooner, and they wanted to avoid that? What if revealing it sooner would of been a bad choice? The thing is, without knowing exactly why Bioware didn't say more sooner, we can't really judge what happened.

 

It's easy to assume incompetence, but without more information that is exactly that, an assumption.

 

I would extend this idea to suggest that logic dictates this is more than "perhaps", it is "of course". Of course they understand their player base better than anyone. They are the only one with access to all the metrics. They make the decisions that they feel are best for the game that puts food on their table.

 

If a comedian writes a joke and you don't laugh, that doesn't mean it's not funny. You might not get it... or more importantly... you might not be the target audience of the comedian. If they write a joke and nobody laughs, well, they're not going to be a comedian very long.

 

With almost every MMORPG they come out with new material and a subset of the player base says it's bad material when the truth is they either don't get it or more importantly they weren't the target audience. Yet time and again those people insist that since they aren't happy nobody is and the end of the game is nigh.

[VanorDM]

It's a fair point. I can't argue that this is not highly assumptive.

 

Thanks, I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that we really don't know what the reason is, perhaps it's incompetence, perhaps it's not.

 

But if it is truly incompetence, nothing said here is likely to help, because they won't really understand what we're saying in the first place. Is there a MMO out there that you think does it right?

[LordArtemis]

Not that my approval is needed or even relevant, but.....

 

I would extend this idea to suggest that logic dictates this is more than "perhaps", it is "of course". Of course they understand their player base better than anyone. They are the only one with access to all the metrics. They make the decisions that they feel are best for the game that puts food on their table.

 

Unassailable. One can not deny that they do have access to information that most of us are not privy to, and anyone that is fair will have to admit that they could have very good reasons for what they do, even if it seems on the outside to be negative.

 

I wouldn't necessarily agree with your other points, but this one is rock solid IMO. The logic stands.

 

I also appreciate a spirited discussion. I wanted to thank you for sharing your views on the issue. Though I may not agree with some of your points I can appreciate your candor.

Edited November 2, 2015 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

Thanks, I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that we really don't know what the reason is, perhaps it's incompetence, perhaps it's not.

 

But if it is truly incompetence, nothing said here is likely to help, because they won't really understand what we're saying in the first place. Is there a MMO out there that you think does it right?

 

STO and EVE. STO in particular has improved exponentially with it's community communication and promotion of new content.

 

Exploration is a good example. Drastic changes there, some scuttlebut, STO devs jumped in, ran around the net, explained the changes in detail, and it was well received (generally speaking of course).

 

....and they had a record quarter after that BTW

Edited November 2, 2015 by LordArtemis

[TravelersWay]

Great post LA. I was thinking about the communication issue when reading the CM feedback threads over the weekend - where the dev himself was stating how good and useful the dialogue was. That's the kind of communication that many players are looking for, but is sadly lacking on many other issues.

 

And again you're assuming that they don't understand the playerbase. Perhaps they understand it better then we do, and much better than we think they do.

 

Perhaps they knew exactly what would've happened if they said something sooner, and they wanted to avoid that? What if revealing it sooner would of been a bad choice? The thing is, without knowing exactly why Bioware didn't say more sooner, we can't really judge what happened.

 

It's easy to assume incompetence, but without more information that is exactly that, an assumption.

 

It's not incompetence, but it's not really hard to guess where this type of communication, or lack thereof, stems from. In my experience, most developers would love to have an open dialogue with players about their game and features. However - the problem comes from those who are not directly on the dev team. The PR is EA's call and this kind of stuff is SOP for them and a few other publishers. Just look at the whole SimCity fiasco. Every time someone opened their mouth to attempt a BS reason for their foul-ups and decisions, they got caught with their foot in their mouths and with outright lies. Therefore, they went back to their SOP - radio silence until they stopped development on the game and gutted Maxis.

 

They knew exactly what would happen once players were made aware of the changes here. Therefore, BW was muzzled until after the end of the fiscal quarter, where the damage could be mitigated over time.

Edited November 2, 2015 by TravelersWay

[Thunderstriken]

..................The point you are missing, that is exactly pertinent, is that I am perfectly capable of making that decision without your feedback, and I will continue to offer feedback as I see fit.

 

You contention would be valid under a different original post. You are backpedaling. You did not frame this discussion under the context that you are merely expressing your opinion that you would like to see more communication, discussion, and decision making between Bioware and the players. There's simply no way unsay what you quite clearly said in the OP.

 

Your title clearly insists there is a problem.

 

Your summation clearly demands a solution to that problem.

 

The text in the middle is indeed wishy washy, but I feel that speaks more to an inability to support your contention than proof of your motivation to merely express an opinion.

 

Had your post been merely an expression of an opinion I can assure you my response would have been at most a statement of disagreement with perhaps an opposing opinion, however in all honestly I would have likely not bothered to even reply.

[LordArtemis]

Great post LA. I was thinking about the communication issue when reading the CM feedback threads over the weekend - where the dev himself was stating how good and useful the dialogue was. That's the kind of communication that many players are looking for, but is sadly lacking on many other issues.

 

Yea, I saw that too. Made me hopeful that things might change.

 

Sometimes Bioware surprises me.