Is This Really What People Want??

[Mikahrone]

the bitter irony is: no, swtor players dont seem to want an mmo. all the mmo-loving gamers that tried swtor left, because there is no endgame content.

 

what's left are the sinpleplayer casuals...and they seem okay to pay a sub for...well no reason.

 

Ah, and by "mmo-loving gamers" you mean WoW player. Yup, SWTOR failed in attempt to steal WoW players (like any other similar game released since Wow), so its time for them to come back to their own audience (which was the initial plan for SWTOR until WoW pipedream kicked in)

[marcusaxavier]

People didn't even want TOR to be an mmo to begin with, we wanted KOTOR 3 and in a way we're getting it.

I fully agree with this. It is KOTOR 3, but with the ability to play with others in certain areas.

[Mikahrone]

I really do think BW is listening to feedback and attempting to give players what they want. But we saw the results of this behavior from BW with GSF and Conquest. So many players wanted space battles and guild competitions. No one wanted point and click space combat or crafting wars.

 

Players wanted more and even better stories, but they also wanted to play the game. KotFE doesn't even have KOTOR amounts of gameply. There are no puzzles to solve when you get to a planet. There is no exploration required. You just keep walking forward, one shot some trash mobs, emote at a boss, watch 10 min of cutscenes, and repeat.

 

Ah, you finally nailed it - they are finally doing what they do BEST instead chasing WoW pipedream.

[GJuliusCaesar]

The only reason I started playing this game is because I loved KOTOR and KOTOR 2. It's always been KOTOR 3 for me, and I'm very happy that they're moving closer to that direction.

[Troelsen]

More story and wpvp, please. I like playing kotor 3 with the occasional person to fight. If anything, they should spend more time integrating the stories, so that one class could play with another and have a stake in that outcome.

 

Story outcomes based on class combinations would be interesting and would give me a reason to not only play every story, but also to bring or join a friend to see a different ending.

[Jadescythe]

Ah, you finally nailed it - they are finally doing what they do BEST instead chasing WoW pipedream.

 

Are they? Outside of removing player dialogue and improving the story, I don't see any resemblance to something like KOTOR in the new content in terms of gameplay. There is nothing for me to figure out or solve in the missions. I don't choose to go to a location and do various activities there, I'm on a track. There are no side quests or mini games integrated into the new content, only completely separate pieces of content.

 

KotFE is like a worse KOTOR with all the gameplay removed.

[Vego_Mohenjo]

I do understand what people are saying here, but I have to say that the focus in this game has to be the story, since there's precious little else.

 

I've been saying it since the original beta days, this game has NO DEPTH. You go on quests, and if you're not questing there's NOTHING TO DO. You don't even craft, you send your companions off to do it.

 

They needed to do one of two things. They needed more story content, so we would have things to do... or else they needed to expand on the whole foundation of the game, to add sandbox elements that would allow us to find OUR OWN things to do.

 

Of course, they went with the former... which means they will need to make this same decision again in the future. However, I've no doubt there are many people who have already blown through all the new content. It's simply not possible for them to keep up with the demand, and I've said THAT before too. Maybe one day, they'll see that they need to make the game a true MMO by adding the sandbox elements that define the genre. Until they do, we'll be stuck with an inflated adventure game. More's the pity.

[Phyreblade]

So yesterday, I managed to unveil a particular line of dialogue during a cut-scene that I hadn't yet seen leveling up my 4th character to 65. As an aside, mind you, I have another 20 characters worth of gameplay to get through the entire story again.

 

But to my point, I got this particular piece of dialogue and I actually gasped aloud and went running to find more lore and canon information on that subject. Then I posed it to some Guildies in voice-chat and we bantered about the lore possibilities for some good while. To me, yes, THAT is fun. It's why I am able to play the same story over and over, for those sheer chances to see something new or some different direction I didn't see before and then explore and wonder over what it means to the overarching STORY. In this case, the entire story that is Star Wars but I do it in all the games I play, too.

 

Don't get me wrong -- I actually thrill and enjoy the group content in my games. Except for PVP, which I utterly avoid. I really do love running with teammates to get a boss down for the first time, though. But sacrifice the story just to give me awesome tactics in some particular rushed operation and I will be soundly disappointed. I've waited years for an expansion to the game that truly allowed my characters' stories to continue and progress, and I feel like I have FINALLY gotten what I want. I don't have to struggle through yet another arena update, space battle update, or some more awesome bosses to down again and again.

 

No, this time I've gotten what *I* wanted. Some more lore, some new perspectives and stories and characters -- I'm loving it. I figure there will be new updates, more arenas and warzones and operations and flashpoints to come. For now, though, I'm absolutely thrilled. That's just me, shrug.

[asbalana]

I know, right? But logic doesn't matter here.

 

I haven't seen this much prolonged complaining since the game launched, and all of the arguments are pretty weak.

 

Nothing has really changed about TOR at its core. If you liked the game during 2.0 or 3.0 there's no real reason not to like it now besides not liking trivial change (level sync, companions, level scaling in flashpoints, etc).

 

How has anyone's gameplay been negatively impacted by any of this? Even crafting. I'm not a huge fan of all the crafting changes but it only took me a few days to adapt and gather the new mats I needed...

 

Change happens, sometimes change can be annoying, but it isn't always bad. Yet I see people supposedly quitting because their companion can't use the type of weapon it used to.

 

I saw this post earlier today and now have time on break to respond.

 

My family members and I have subbed since early access of initial launch.

 

There indeed was significant complaining at game launch. I remember it well. There was also a mass migration out of the game to the point that it was going down. It had to be saved by F2P and the CM. I believe that EA/BW at one time noted that almost half the game revenue came from the CM and most of the CM activity came from subs.

 

At launch we had eight class stories and the empire and republic leveling was diverse with each planet having it's own story. Companions had their own story as well. Yet by the prior paragraph it is clear that the story alone could not carry the game.

 

The complaints were not weak because they underpinned a mass rejection of SWTOR.

 

This expansion has provided nine hours of "story" with more to come soon . Whether or not one liked the new story, by comparison to the time the game failed, there is little of it in the expansion and what there is contains no diversity. I would think if the initial comparatively rich story content at launch could not support SWTOR that the story in the expansion has significantly less of a chance.

 

I disagree with the statement that nothing has changed in the game at it's core. Companions have changed, crafting has changed, and the concept of questing has been all but eliminated. Combat, although most of the animations have remained the same, has changed because the relative challenge of every fight is much less and one can now afk and still beat their opponents. The four different main stats have been condensed into one do all stat called Mastery. Level sync has significantly changed one's experience in leveling and replaying old content. Leveling has been "streamlined". At launch and in each expansion there was significant new content. In KotFE we seem to have the same old content that we have played so many times with just a slight new twist. So although the game looks the same, to me and family it is an entirely new game and much different than the one that existed on 10/20.

 

The prior paragraph is not intended to be a debate as to the rational or quality of the changes but rather just to establish that the game has indeed changed at it's core.

 

It will be much interesting to see how this expansion plays out. People are not quitting because of one reason. Every account held by my family members has been cancelled. We all unsubbed. We did not do so because of the one change in the weapon that our companions could hold, but rather because the game changed into something different. Something we did not like. As far as we are concerned there was something about each of the changes not to like and we did not like a lot of them.

 

A lot of people like the changes and the new story. More power to them; enjoy the ride. I just wonder if the formula that failed the first time through with so much less this time can sustain the game.

 

We will see.

[Troelsen]

Are they? Outside of removing player dialogue and improving the story, I don't see any resemblance to something like KOTOR in the new content in terms of gameplay. There is nothing for me to figure out or solve in the missions. I don't choose to go to a location and do various activities there, I'm on a track. There are no side quests or mini games integrated into the new content, only completely separate pieces of content.

 

KotFE is like a worse KOTOR with all the gameplay removed.

I mean, it's not exactly kotor 3, but it's a step in that direction. It's an expansion, not a stand alone game, so we'll just have to wait and see if BW builds on these elements and if they're able to integrate more MMO elements into it.

[Tsillah]

They keep saying "Oh ya, all players really want nowadays is more story, more epicness". Really!!??

 

Well, I'm not confused about what I want but I do want to point out that I do not agree with this statement. As much as I have seen the devs say that people wanted more story, I have not seen them say that ALL people want is more story.

 

However, I could be wrong. So if you can provide the links (plural because you say they "keep saying" this), then I will accept this premise.

 

If not, I will kindly tell you that your premise is false and therefore you viewpoint would be baseless.

 

You may be an old MMO'er....I am the kinda guy that likes statements to be correct. So either prove that you are not making this up or admit you used a false premise here. I think that would be fair.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Tsillah

[Mikahrone]

Are they? Outside of removing player dialogue and improving the story, I don't see any resemblance to something like KOTOR in the new content in terms of gameplay. There is nothing for me to figure out or solve in the missions. I don't choose to go to a location and do various activities there, I'm on a track. There are no side quests or mini games integrated into the new content, only completely separate pieces of content.

 

KotFE is like a worse KOTOR with all the gameplay removed.

 

Sure, they are bound by engine limitations and budget limitations. All courtesy of what came before.

 

Gameplay? What "gameplay" are you talking about? Played KOTOR many times and i cant pinpoint "gameplay" youre talking about (KOTOR 2 was not BW).

 

You dont go to Odessen and choose your activities from there? Really? I would like you to revisit KOTOR because you seem to have forgotten how much on rails it was. Any BW game since BG is on rails for most part. And oh yea, they implemented "MMO like side quests" in DA:I. they didnt bring anything of value to the table.

 

Also side quest are decent....when you play through once. As original 1-50 showed. People quit because they didnt want to go through sea of "kill 10 rats" side quests that are meaningless to your story. That people also expect to be fully voiced with branching. Bonus quests are quite enough. BW is learning. Also voicing over EVERYTHING. Just not needed. Alliance stuff is great in KOTOR style.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Mikahrone

[Arryek]

But the story isn't even that good....just shows why Hollywood keeps putting out garbage...it's cheap, easy and people will buy it.

[robertthebard]

I'm an old-fashioned mmo player, I've been playing mmos for a long time. I'm also a Star Wars fan, Old Republic was a great mix of the two. That's why I'm here. But personally, I think this new direction of SWTOR is just a big mess. They keep saying "Oh ya, all players really want nowadays is more story, more epicness". Really!!??

 

Do you really want all of Bioware's resources tied up for months & months to partake in a stream-lined, cut scene infested story arc that can be finished in an afternoon? You don't want any new pvp content? No new operations? Yes I realize these things "may be coming in the near future" but in the meantime this new storyline content just has no re-playability at all. How many times are you willing to follow Lana the "Jedi-wannabe sith" through a swamp? I've been told that this is what players really want and I find it hard to believe.

 

I think you are all confused, you want to sit around for 6 months at a time waiting for an afternoon's entertainment. Then you don't want an mmo, you want a MOVIE!! And great news, there's a Star Wars movie coming out in 2 months!! I'll see you all there but in the meantime I'd like my mmo back because this is not a mmo PC game, this is an advanced version of a read-along book. I used to read those when I was like 7 yrs old. "If you want to jump over the puddle turn to page 63. If you want to go around the puddle instead, then turn to page 89." Either way you're on the other side of the puddle!! Congratulations you finished Chapter 1 - The Puddle, now please wait patiently for 6 more months as we move on to Chapter 2 - The Hill.

 

Come on people!!

 

I'd suggest Rappelz, and ignore any quests after level 80. After you get done with the 3 or so year grind to get to the level cap, come back and let us know if that's what you really want.

[Pagy]

Ah, and by "mmo-loving gamers" you mean WoW player. Yup, SWTOR failed in attempt to steal WoW players (like any other similar game released since Wow), so its time for them to come back to their own audience (which was the initial plan for SWTOR until WoW pipedream kicked in)

sure, wow was everyone's target and everyone kept losing to take wow subs, at least as many as they wanted to.

 

swtor spent a ton of money on this project and failed. in its current state, theres no endgame, horrible pvp...trying to cater to these types of players now is risky given the fact they all left. churn is a difficult problem to deal with in the services realm.

 

this whole "expansion" (read: dumbing down and small singleplayer quest) is an experiment to see net gains on completely ignoring mmo elements. it may actually work, we'll see. i'm one of the dummies that want an mmo so my sub was only renewed for the one month i needed to play kotfe. turns out i needed one day.

[Alssaran]

it may actually work, we'll see. i'm one of the dummies that want an mmo...

 

We disagree there.

 

There are over a dozen MMOs out there who focus on simple MMO stuff. Only two of them have ever beaten the mark. That would be Final Fantasy 14 and World of Warcraft. If I want a traditional MMORPG...I will consider playing those two games. For the past year I wanted a game with some decent story which I could kick back in and relax with a few guildmates and friends, doing some PvP without focusing on any progression or competitive aspect. And SW:TOR is just great for that.

 

This whole "I want it hard and rough!" attitude when playing MMORPGs is behind me, without even being that old. I'm twenty-two, yet I don't want to spend so much time on those so called MMO elements anymore.

 

The short version? Yes. This is exactly what I want from this game. Story and a relaxing evening were always what I wanted from SW:TOR. I'm getting that right now. Some decent story every month or so. Slowly grinding up an alliance on both a Sith and Jedi, without being forced into a group to see most of the new patch content.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Alssaran

[Thunderstriken]

I'm an old-fashioned mmo player, I've been playing mmos for a long time. I'm also a Star Wars fan, Old Republic was a great mix of the two. That's why I'm here. But personally, I think this new direction of SWTOR is just a big mess. They keep saying "Oh ya, all players really want nowadays is more story, more epicness". Really!!??

 

Do you really want all of Bioware's resources tied up for months & months to partake in a stream-lined, cut scene infested story arc that can be finished in an afternoon? You don't want any new pvp content? No new operations? Yes I realize these things "may be coming in the near future" but in the meantime this new storyline content just has no re-playability at all. How many times are you willing to follow Lana the "Jedi-wannabe sith" through a swamp? I've been told that this is what players really want and I find it hard to believe.

 

I think you are all confused, you want to sit around for 6 months at a time waiting for an afternoon's entertainment. Then you don't want an mmo, you want a MOVIE!! And great news, there's a Star Wars movie coming out in 2 months!! I'll see you all there but in the meantime I'd like my mmo back because this is not a mmo PC game, this is an advanced version of a read-along book. I used to read those when I was like 7 yrs old. "If you want to jump over the puddle turn to page 63. If you want to go around the puddle instead, then turn to page 89." Either way you're on the other side of the puddle!! Congratulations you finished Chapter 1 - The Puddle, now please wait patiently for 6 more months as we move on to Chapter 2 - The Hill.

 

Come on people!!

 

OP, I agree with you up to the point where you fail to see there is room for both. I started a thread yesterday after I finished watching the interactive cutscene movie and couldn't believe people were calling it a game. However, if people actually enjoy that sort of thing, which from everything I've seen there are a great many that truly love it, then then good for them. It doesn't take away anything from me or what I like to do, at least it doesn't have to.

 

Sure, in this case they didn't come out with any new Operations. However, they did move all the ops up to 65 and separated ops from the story in order for ops to have their own independent release dates in the future. It remains to be seen what will come of this, but it certainly seems like they've taken a step in the right direction. I imagine if the level cap increases in the future they'll just bump the ops up and keep on keepin' on. This way all the ops are always relevant, and they can add new ops whenever without having to wait for a story or rush them out before they are ready to coincide with a story.

 

I don't like or understand the single player MMORPG deal, but I'm cautiously optimistic, I'll wait to see when new group content comes out before I judge. Fortunately for me, since I've taken a couple very long breaks from SWTOR, there are currently plenty of ops I've yet to explore.

[Vankris]

Even Mass Effect games, which are the greastest sci fi story telling game made in my opinion, have a DIFFICULTY settings, raging from easy to insanity, last one being exactely what it sound like.

 

Story focus RPG does not have to be ridiculously easy. Skyrim had difficulty settings, The witcher had difficulty settings. Being a story focus MMO is no excuse for faceroll difficulty.

[jbajcar]

Yup, pretty much. I wanted just straight up KoToR rpg games and never cared for the cookie cutter MMO. Those days are long gone. So I'm very happy with the transition.

I'm sorry

[xhugox]

Its a step in the right direction, though I prefer Story, and wanted a KOTOR 3, I hope they don't completely abandon the MMO portions of the game.

[Ferretstalker]

You know what I wanted?

 

A Star Wars story.

 

I wanted to see the war. I wanted the Empire to make a come back and the Republic to up their game. I wanted a story that revolved around the conflict we've never fully interacted with. I wanted the Jedi and the Sith to fight, not team up to fight.... Order/Justice Jedi? I wanted faction-specific storylines that put us in the middle of the galactic war. I wanted new planets that were completey ruined, the frontlines of a massive conflict. I wanted new PvE events that influenced new PvP events, and vice-versa. I wanted something that connected us all together in a meaningful way.

 

Bioware could have made a great story that would have actually worked as an MMO, instead of backpedaling onto their tired RPG tropes they've been working with for a decade now.

 

Also, Heroic 2s are not Flashpoints, how do the devs not understand that?

[Sundragon]

Since 4.0 "story" is 90% cut-scene and we all know the "decisions" you make have no impact on what happens, then why not unsub and watch the youtube version?

 

Remember all the youtube versions of the class stories, and I'd say "if you want the story, go watch it." But the reply was "I want to play the story" and that had some validity because the story was only a small part of the actual game-play. Well, in 4.0, you don't even really play the story. Take 3 steps, cut-scene, move over here a second, cut-scene, fight a guy, cut-scene and have a choice of 3 responses (none of which matter).

 

Okay, if you really want the SWTOR story, then the video website is the place to be with 4.0. And you should watch it multiple times, because for every level 60 character you have you have to watch it every time as well. I might have enjoyed it the first time, but then I was like, OMG, I have to do this for all my alts. No thanks. I tried space-bar but it only moves it five seconds forward, it doesn't skip the entire cut-scene, so it takes almost as long.

[Lyaise]

"I think you are all confuse"

 

- I think you are assuming incorrectly

[robertthebard]

sure, wow was everyone's target and everyone kept losing to take wow subs, at least as many as they wanted to.

 

swtor spent a ton of money on this project and failed. in its current state, theres no endgame, horrible pvp...trying to cater to these types of players now is risky given the fact they all left. churn is a difficult problem to deal with in the services realm.

 

this whole "expansion" (read: dumbing down and small singleplayer quest) is an experiment to see net gains on completely ignoring mmo elements. it may actually work, we'll see. i'm one of the dummies that want an mmo so my sub was only renewed for the one month i needed to play kotfe. turns out i needed one day.

 

Except that it's not? There are plenty of MMO aspects in this MMO, all of which can be taken advantage of by anyone looking to do so. Every Op in the game is now playable at cap. Oh, wait, maybe you're that guy that's soloing all that content? What was your time on ToS? The hyperbole is strong with this one, however, repeating nonsense over and over will not make it true. If you want to craft, you're going to need to run HM FPs and at least HM Ops to get all the stuff required. While some of the HM FPs may actually be soloable with a comp, the last I checked, you can't bring comps into Ops. So maybe try again?

[robertthebard]

Since 4.0 "story" is 90% cut-scene and we all know the "decisions" you make have no impact on what happens, then why not unsub and watch the youtube version?

 

Remember all the youtube versions of the class stories, and I'd say "if you want the story, go watch it." But the reply was "I want to play the story" and that had some validity because the story was only a small part of the actual game-play. Well, in 4.0, you don't even really play the story. Take 3 steps, cut-scene, move over here a second, cut-scene, fight a guy, cut-scene and have a choice of 3 responses (none of which matter).

 

Okay, if you really want the SWTOR story, then the video website is the place to be with 4.0. And you should watch it multiple times, because for every level 60 character you have you have to watch it every time as well. I might have enjoyed it the first time, but then I was like, OMG, I have to do this for all my alts. No thanks. I tried space-bar but it only moves it five seconds forward, it doesn't skip the entire cut-scene, so it takes almost as long.

 

Can you post your exit survey, and then exit? That would be nice, thanks.