Luke Skywalker vs Darth Malgus

[tunewalker]

I can say the same about your PT wanking. And your reactions tell otherwise.

 

Darth Vader better then Darth Malgus in all aspects? Very transparent.

 

I am a troll now? Do you even understand the meaning of this word?

 

From Urban Dictionary: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board.

 

Your statement is clearly provocative. In other words, you are trolling here.

 

You do realize that every thing in this especially the high lighted parts are all provacative yes? One troll does beg the next apparently. Its best just to kind of let bygones be bygones, move things along and just let some things go.

 

The EVERYTHING Malgus can do Vader can do better is an exaguration, just look at Force Lightning, Malgus can, Vader can't but the overall statement that all around Vader is better is an opinion with merits as is that all around total Malgus is better. Honestly Comparing characters from different eras should be done as less as possible if you ask me.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Thanks for telling me, I'll edit my post. It does make me wonder where that false info came from though. Also would you mind giving me any pointers in how I debate? I'd really appreciate it.

 

Much like where most false info comes from...from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

As for pointers...

 

1. Don't use Wookiee.

 

2. Use actual sources of evidence.

 

Pretty much it, now you can use Wookiee...but only use it if you have the Source material to back up with what is being said.

 

Example: Luke pushes a boulder in....in a novel.

 

Now the Wookiee says that, but it's best to check the novel to confirm that it is true. Cause Wookieepedia can be edited by anyone, so it's not best to take it seriously unless the sources check out.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[PadsterPwns]

Honestly Comparing characters from different eras should be done as less as possible if you ask me.

 

I definitely agree with you on that one, tbh it feels like it's harder to compare characters from different eras due to many of the accolades saying "blank was the best/among the best of their time" and a lot of threads that do compare different characters from different eras end up becoming flame wars with tremendous low balling, the best example I can think of being Dooku and Vader vs Nox and the Wrath. Just to clarify though, it's not that I think it shouldn't happen at all but just to a lesser extent.

[PadsterPwns]

Much like where most false info comes from...from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

As for pointers...

 

1. Don't use Wookiee.

 

2. Use actual sources of evidence.

 

Pretty much it, now you can use Wookiee...but only use it if you have the Source material to back up with what is being said.

 

Example: Luke pushes a boulder in....in a novel.

 

Now the Wookiee says that, but it's best to check the novel to confirm that it is true. Cause Wookieepedia can be edited by anyone, so it's not best to take it seriously unless the sources check out.

 

I actually don't use Wookie that much unless I really don't know the character, most of the time I just look through past versus threads and respect threads. As for number two was there a claim I made without a proper source backing it up? I'm not meaning to be snarky if it seems I am, I'm just curious if I did. Anyway thanks a lot for the advice.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I actually don't use Wookie that much unless I really don't know the character, most of the time I just look through past versus threads and respect threads. As for number two was there a claim I made without a proper source backing it up? I'm not meaning to be snarky if it seems I am, I'm just curious if I did. Anyway thanks a lot for the advice.

 

Nah you pretty much did give some actual showings, so it's ok. But yeah, looking through other VS threads and RT is a good idea too.

[PadsterPwns]

Nah you pretty much did give some actual showings, so it's ok. But yeah, looking through other VS threads and RT is a good idea too.

 

Phew, I thought I might have screwed up so that's a relief. Out of interest (you obviously don't have to answer) but what do you think? I'm thinking:

 

R1: Luke in an almost stomp

R2: Luke handily

R3: Luke mid-high diff

Edited October 23, 2015 by PadsterPwns

[cs_zoltan]

Honestly Comparing characters from different eras should be done as less as possible if you ask me.

 

Characters from the same era are pretty self evident though. Like if someone would make a Ki-Adi-Mundi vs Obi-Wan Kenobi thread, there would be no debate, because Kenobi wins 10/10.

 

Not to mention how limiting it is. Feats are feats, whether done in the OR era or the Legacy era.

[S_W_LeGenD]

I can't find the quote about Vader being the best Djem-So user of all time, so for now I'll concede that point but I will try and find it in the meantime.

Thank you. Your honesty is appreciated.

 

While Malgus may be a master of those forms, (also could you provide the source(s) detailing this?), Vader's form is stated to borrow techniques from ALL forms of lightsaber combat and has mastered all forms of lightsaber combat (source Rise of Darth Vader), so Vader has Malgus outmatched as far as lightsaber mastery goes.

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia provides information about dueling preferences of both Sith Warrior and Sith Inquisitor classes. My assessment is based on revelations in this source. Darth Malgus is officially a Sith Warrior.

 

Moreover, Juyo is the most demanding dueling Form and its techniques can be understood only after becoming a master of all other dueling Forms (I - VI). Therefore, if Darth Malgus is a master of Juyo, he is a master of all dueling Forms. In-fact, we learn from the dialogue after the False Emperor flash-point that Darth Malgus had flawless dueling skills.

 

I don't think anybody is in the position to determine who is better duelist among these two since both have history of outdueling some fantastic duelists. Any conclusion in this regard would be influenced by personal liking instead of merit.

 

While both stormed the Jedi Temple, Vader did it during the golden era of the Jedi and didn't break a sweat. Malgus faced Ven Zallow? Vader faced Cin Drallig, a master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat, and his two apprentices and stomped them, dueling Drallig using one hand while choking his apprentice to death. Also remember that while both Vader and Malgus weren't in their primes during their raids, Vader was further from his prime but still stomped any Jedi that crossed him.

Golden Age is a useless argument. Check this: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/kotor-era-is-the-prime-of-the-jedi/95277/

 

Cin Drallig might be a master swordsman but we don't know much about his Force abilities. It is common knowledge that he proved to be no match for Darth Vader since he lost terribly. This doesn't bodes well for Drallig since several individuals have performed much better against Darth Vader [1 on 1].

 

Ven Zallow slaughtered several Sith Warriors who raided the Jedi Temple, literally blitzed two Sith Warriors (simultaneously) at one point, effectively countered blaster-fire from Eleena Daru without even looking at her and knocked her out afterwards, outdueled Lord Adraas (a rival of Darth Malgus in the Empire and primary antagonist of Deceived) and injured even Darth Malgus with his dueling skills. Both were cutting a swath through enemy ranks during the battle. Now this is an admirable performance.

 

Make no mistake: each Sith Warrior - who participated in the Battle of Coruscant - was battle-hardened, among the best and handpicked for this objective. This is clarified in several sources including neutral ones. Therefore, people should not assume that Zallow was dominating canon fodder.

 

I would also like to point out another fact that even some (master) swordsmen were beneath the notice of Darth Malgus; he had such standards. Jedi Master Usma is officially recognized as one of the finest duelists of the Jedi Order and she participated in the Battle of Coruscant. However, Darth Malgus regarded only Zallow as a credible threat and worthy of his attention inside the Jedi Temple.

 

In the nutshell, the likes of Drallig would be beneath the notice of Darth Malgus.

 

Whether you take that statement at face value or not it still remains that Vader was only 20% less powerful than ROTJ Palpatine. So as far as raw force power goes Vader being 80% (or around that) of Sidious, the most powerful Sith ever, is still > Malgus.

I do not disregard disclosures from important figures but I focus on the intended message and its context. George Lucas was trying to explain that Anakin Skywalker had higher potential then Darth Sidious! full stop. Now, if we are to take his every word at face value then Darth Maul and Count Dooku were also around 80% of Darth Sidious because they are in the league of Darth Vader according to him. So make your choice.

 

Darth Sidious recognized Darth Malgus as one of his strongest predecessors and the most accomplished warrior in galactic history. IMO, this is superior hype then that of Darth Vader. You may have noticed that Darth Sidious had very high standards and was not in the habit of appreciating every Sith Lord. Heck, Darth Sidious even asserted that the likes of Darth Maul were not genuine Sith but mere tools. So if somebody impressed him (i.e. Darth Sidious), that somebody have really something in him.

 

Vader also has better power showings through his force screams, being noted to shake the foundations of buildings, ruin rooms and collapse concrete domes, and through his TK.

Really?

 

 

Taken from Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side

 

The strenght of my scream buckled the bridge's transparisteel viewport and left the crew's ears bleeding. More gratifyingly, my rage overloaded the fuel slugs of an incoming wave of Aureks. The bright bursts of their deaths raised a smile.

 

NOTE: Aureks are Starfighters of the Republic during SWTOR era.

 

 

&

 

 

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived

 

Anger refilled him, overcame him. A shout of hate, raw and jagged, burst from his throat. Power went with it, shattering a nearby column and sending a rain of stone shards through the room.

 

 

As you can see, both are more or less on the same page in the context of feats. However, the aforementioned feats represent events years before Darth Malgus reached his prime and became the Emperor. Therefore, it is logical to assume that Darth Malgus could do much better at his prime.

 

Moreover, Darth Malgus defeated a Jedi Master in single combat who managed to collapse two buildings with his raw power. Granted that these buildings were damaged to some extent in the war but collapsing two of them (simultaneously) is a phenomenal display of strength and command of telekinetic powers. Yet, such strength was not sufficient to stop Darth Malgus.

 

Make no mistake: Darth Malgus is absolutely dominating with his telekinetic abilities. He send Aryn Leener packing across the hall with a Force push for example. Now, Aryn Leener have solid telekinetic showings of her own. At one point, she used her telekinetic abilities to lift and hurl (six) cars of a Tram (simultaneously) like missiles towards the positions of some enemies in an arena. You understand what a Tram is, right?

 

Just because Sidious learnt something from Malgus doesn't mean Malgus > Vader, also is it stated when Sidious learnt from Malgus?

You should focus on the CONTEXT, my friend.

 

Darth Malgus was a master of the Dark Side of such a caliber that even the likes of Darth Sidious found his knowledge worth consulting and learned some stuff from him. Now, Darth Sidious did not learn trivial stuff in this case; he acquired knowledge that enabled him to channel his power more destructively and effectively then ever before. And Darth Sidious acquired this knowledge at some point after the events of Episode III.

 

On the other hand, Darth Vader was the apprentice of Darth Sidious. Not just this, but Darth Sidious decided to share the data of Darth Malgus with Darth Vader to inspire his apprentice and grant him the opportunity to learn some stuff from the data as well. Any intellectual person can understand the difference here.

 

Malgus developing doesn't mean he's more skilled in his application, it simply means he created a powerful technique, besides Vader couldn't use Force Maelstrom anyway due to it's involvement of force lightning.

Darth Vader cannot perform Force Maelstrom, therefore he logically does not compares to Darth Malgus in its use and proficiency. Darth Vader's limitations hinder him from honing his talents in the Dark Side and develop new powers.

 

Superiority of a Force-user is not just determined on the basis of demonstrations of raw power but also on the basis of his understanding of the ways of the Force in general. Darth Malgus evidently matches Darth Vader in all fronts and then some. Darth Malgus is among the pioneers of some Sith powers; his knowledge enabled Darth Sidious to devise Force Storm (Wormhole) technique. Do the math.

 

While true that a powerful force-user should be able to do this, it is the utter ease in which he did it. He only needed to use one hand to crush an AT-AT, note that crushing something takes far more effort and power than simply TK'ing it. Another demonstration of Vader's sheer power and skill at commanding the force is when Vader collapses numerous platforms in the Kaminoen cloning facility. Has Malgus done anything to show he could crush an AT-AT with ease or replicate Vader's feat on Kamino?

As pointed out by me earlier, most of his documented feats represent events that took place years before his prime. However, Darth Malgus is officially stated to have (single-handedly) destroyed some Republic fortresses (and/or fortifications) in battles. So?

 

We can also consider feats of Satele Shan for comparison purpose. She destroyed the trunk of a gigantic tree with one-handed gesture while being pressed by Darth Malgus, causing its collapse. You understand how heavy a tree of that size is in real life on average? Hundreds of tons. So if Satele Shan could perform this feat (with ease) years before her prime, then imagine what Darth Malgus would be capable of during his prime since he is commonly assumed to be her superior.

 

Vader killed Roan Lands before Ferus Olin could react, indicating he could have speed blitzed him. This is the same Ferus Olin who managed to temporarily hold of 512 stormtroopers. Ferus Olin also stated that Vader was the fastest person he had ever seen bar Yoda and during his fight with Vader, in which he was enraged and seemingly enhanced by a Sith holocron, Vader was constantly dodging Olin's strikes with the former moving so fast Olin would strike where Vader was but Vader wouldn't be there (sorry if that's a clunky explanation, it's hard to word). In addition, before his prime, Vader has seen spacecraft that travel at sublight speeds in slow motion. Even if this isn't enough to convince you that Vader is a near equal or superior to Leener's speed, it should be enough to convince you that he will either be faster or at least as fast as Malgus.

Darth Malgus would not have any trouble reacting to his speed.

 

Overall I think it is obvious that Malgus is dealing with someone who outclasses him as a duelist, who is more powerful in the force, is better at commanding the force and is either as fast or faster than him. I'd say Vader takes this.

Covered above.

Edited October 22, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[PadsterPwns]

Thank you. Your honesty is appreciated.

 

No problem , personally I feel if you have to lie in a debate you shouldn't be debating.

 

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia provides information about dueling preferences of both Sith Warrior and Sith Inquisitor classes. My assessment is based on revelations in this source. Darth Malgus is officially a Sith Warrior.

 

Thank you for providing that.

 

Moreover, Juyo is the most demanding dueling Form and its techniques can understood only after becoming a master of all other dueling Forms (I - VI). Therefore, if Darth Malgus is a master of Juyo, he is a master of all dueling Forms. In-fact, we learn from the dialogue after the False Emperor flash-point that Darth Malgus had flawless dueling skills.

 

Can you give me a source that says Juyo requires mastery of all forms? In The Jedi Path it states that to study Juyo you have to of mastered multiple forms, not all of them, as does Battlemaster Cin Drallig's recording on the form. While this obviously doesn't detract from Malgus it still means that he may not have mastered all of the forms of lightsaber combat, possibly giving Vader an advantage.

 

I don't think anybody is in the position to determine who is better duelist among these two since both have history of outdueling some fantastic duelists. Any conclusion in this regard would be influenced by personal liking instead of merit.

 

One point I would like to make is how Malgus may have trouble compensating against Vader's peculiar hybrid form. While I am not suggesting Malgus would be unable to deal with this I believe it would still grant Vader a slight edge at least at the start of combat as it has been described as unpredictable before and I highly doubt Malgus has faced anything akin to Vader's hybrid form.

 

 

Golden Age is a useless argument. Check this: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/kotor-era-is-the-prime-of-the-jedi/95277/

 

A G-canon statement from George Lucas overrides those quotes, as does the existence of many powerful Jedi at the time of the PT Order.

 

Cin Drallig might be a master swordsman but we don't know much about his Force abilities. We haven't seen him in action much. It is common knowledge that he proved to be no match for Darth Vader since he lost terribly. This doesn't bodes well for Drallig since several individuals have performed much better against Darth Vader [1 on 1].

 

While Cin Drallig did lose to Vader, note that Vader was a master of Djem-So. In The Jedi Path it is stated that "those who can balance it's intimidating aspects with the compassionate application of the Force may succeed in besting even their battlemasters.", now note that Vader was the best Djem-So user of his time, his prowess in the form being so high that he was consistently stalemating Count Dooku throughout the Clone Wars and killed him in RotS. Dooku being noted as only second to Yoda and an equal of Mace Windu's, perhaps slightly below the latter.

 

Ven Zallow slaughtered several Sith Warriors who raided the Jedi Temple, literally blitzed two Sith Warriors (simultaneously) at one point, effectively countered blaster-fire from Eleena Daru without even looking at her and knocked her out afterwards, outdueled Lord Adraas (a rival of Darth Malgus in the Empire and primary antagonist of Deceived) and injured even Darth Malgus with his dueling skills. Both were cutting a swath through enemy ranks during the battle. Now this is an admirable performance.

 

Make no mistake: each Sith Warrior - who participated in the Battle of Coruscant - was battle-hardened, among the best and handpicked for this objective. This is clarified in several sources including neutral ones. Therefore, people should not assume that Zallow was dominating canon fodder.

 

I would also like to point out another fact that even some (master) swordsmen were beneath the notice of Darth Malgus; he had such standards. Jedi Master Usma is officially recognized as one of the finest duelists of the Jedi Order and she participated in the Battle of Coruscant. However, Darth Malgus regarded only Zallow as a credible threat and worthy of his attention inside the Jedi Temple.

 

In the nutshell, the likes of Drallig would be beneath the notice of Darth Malgus.

 

While Drallig is likely beneath Malgus (and even then I'd say it's mainly due to force power rather than lightsaber skill, though that's a different topic entirely ) he is likely above the level of the Sith warriors with Malgus, my reasoning being his mastery of forms I-VI, his study of form VII and the fact that Dooku considered Drallig an opponent who could threaten and possibly beat Grievous. Dooku's claim is likely accurate as well giving that he trained Grievous, has sparred with him numerous times and was a lightsaber instructor himself meaning he likely knew Drallig and his ability. Honestly with all of this taken into account I think that Drallig is underrated sometimes. Again not arguing that Drallig is on Zallow's tier but I am saying that Vader's duel against Drallig is at least on level, if not better, than Malgus' duel with Zallow considering that Drallig had back up but still got destroyed by a pre-prime, hindered Vader.

 

My friend, I always focus on the context of information at hand. I do not disregard disclosures from important figures but I focus on the intended message. George Lucas was trying to explain that Anakin Skywalker had higher potential then Darth Sidious! full stop. Now, if we are to take his every word at face value then Darth Maul and Count Dooku were also around 80% of Darth Sidious because they are in the league of Darth Vader according to him. So make your choice.

 

Before I concede on the quote that sates Vader is 80% of Sidious please could you provide me with the quote that states Dooku and Maul are around Vader's level in Force power and command of the Force? I have looked in respect threads for both Maul and Dooku and couldn't find a quote, in fact the only quote I found stated "His power isn’t on Vader’s level, true, or even on Count Dooku’s level — but that never stops him. He stands alongside the Sith Lords only by sheer force of will.", this being stated about Maul by the writer of Son of Dathomir series. Also the way I perceived the context and the message was twofold:

 

1) George was explaining Anakin's potential before the duel on Mustafar.

2) George was stating Vader's actual power in comparison to Sidious.

 

Darth Sidious recognized Darth Malgus as one of his strongest predecessors and the most accomplished warrior in galactic history. IMO, this is superior hype then that of Darth Vader. You may have noticed that Darth Sidious had very high standards and was not in the habit of appreciating every Sith Lord. Heck, Darth Sidious even asserted that the likes of Darth Maul were not genuine Sith but mere tools. So if somebody impressed him (i.e. Darth Sidious), that somebody have really something in him.

 

I'm going to have to disagree on Malgus' hype being superior to Vader's. While Palpatine recognizing Malgus as the most accomplished warrior in galactic history is certainly a great accolade, I feel it falls short to Palpatine regarding Vader as the greatest Jedi killer of all time (source: Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force) as this puts him over the like of General Grievous and Tulak Hord. As well as this he has been seen as far more powerful in the force than Kar Vastor by Nick Rostu, which is an amazingly great accolade considering that it puts him far above Mace Windu (who considered himself weaker than Kar Vastor) and by extension above Mace's council peers bar Yoda. In addition Palpatine has described Vader's powers as unparalleled, he has been noted as one of THE most powerful Sith Lords in galactic history, he is described as "an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder". A pre-prime Vader has been stated as being more powerful than Jeric, Jeric being a powerful (and quite underrated) Force user capable of using Force Destruction (a highly advanced variant of Force Wave) to force an entire Cargo Ship out of its docking and using Drain Knowledge which let Jeric in duels to instantly know an opponents fighting style while also causing harm to the opponents psyche.

 

 

[quote=S_W_LeGenD;8534811Really?

 

 

Taken from Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side

 

The strenght of my scream buckled the bridge's transparisteel viewport and left the crew's ears bleeding. More gratifyingly, my rage overloaded the fuel slugs of an incoming wave of Aureks. The bright bursts of their deaths raised a smile.

 

NOTE: Aureks are Starfighters of the Republic during SWTOR era.

 

 

&

 

 

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived

 

Anger refilled him, overcame him. A shout of hate, raw and jagged, burst from his throat. Power went with it, shattering a nearby column and sending a rain of stone shards through the room.

 

 

As you can see, both are more or less on the same page in the context of feats. However, the aforementioned feats represent events years before Darth Malgus reached his prime and became the Emperor. Therefore, it is logical to assume that Darth Malgus could do much better at his prime.

 

First of all let me say I have no idea why I chose to compare Force Screams as both are involuntary meaning they have little input in this discussion. Saying that however I would like to note that Vader's Force Scream has melted durasteel a very impressive feat considering durasteel is noted to be heat resistance and it is also superior to Malgus buckling transparisteel as durasteel is noted to be much stronger than the former, transparisteel being used for viewports as it is transparent whereas durasteel, while stronger, is opaque meaning it could not be used in viewports. His Force Scream has also cracked walls and made the sensors of an entire building go "crazy". All in all I'd probably say that Vader edges out Malgus here as while Malgus' Force Screams were before his prime, so were Vader's, his most impressive Force Scream that melted durasteel being in RotS, so Vader could likely do much better in his prime as well.

 

Moreover, Darth Malgus defeated a Jedi Master in single combat who managed to collapse two buildings with his raw power. Granted that these buildings were damaged to some extent in the war but collapsing two of them (simultaneously) is a phenomenal display of strength and command of telekinetic powers. Yet, such strength was not sufficient to stop Darth Malgus.

 

Make no mistake: Darth Malgus is absolutely dominating with his telekinetic abilities. He send Aryn Leener packing across the hall with a Force push for example. Now, Aryn Leener have solid telekinetic showings of her own. At one point, she used her telekinetic abilities to lift and hurl (six) cars of a Tram (simultaneously) like missiles towards the positions of some enemies in an arena. You understand what a Tram is, right?

 

Believe me, I will make no mistake, I know Malgus is a powerhouse but so is Vader, particularly in telekinetic ability. Vader has Force Crushed a TIE Fighter whilst it was flying, this being particularly note worthy as crushing something has been noted to take more effort than simply TK'ing it and his target was likely moving at sublight speeds showcasing Vader's precise command of the Force. He has collapsed an entire cathedral 20 years before his prime whilst severely injured, this being incredibly impressive due to the sheer size of the cathedral and this feat demonstrates Vader's outstanding raw Force power in combination with his extraordinary Force enhanced endurance and focus.

 

As well as this Vader has Force Gripped the Starkiller clone from The Force Unleashed II, this feat possibly being Vader's best TK feat as the Starkiller clone has demonstrated immense Force feats with him being capable of disintegrating half of a 300 meter long ship. The fact that Vader could do this is even more impressive as this was years before Vader's prime. Has Malgus done anything remotely near to TFU II Starkiller's feat of disintegrating half of a 300 meter long ship? AFAIK he hasn't which means Vader is his superior in TK and even if this doesn't convince you, Vader has many more TK feats and the ones I've listed here, especially the last one, blow Leener's and the Jedi Master's TK feats out of the water.

 

 

You should focus on the CONTEXT, my friend.

 

Darth Malgus was a master of the Dark Side of such a caliber that even the likes of Darth Sidious found his knowledge worth consulting and learned some stuff from him. Now, Darth Sidious did not learn trivial stuff in this case; he acquired knowledge that enabled him to channel his power more destructively and effectively then ever before. And Darth Sidious acquired this knowledge at some point after the events of Episode III.

 

On the other hand, Darth Vader was the apprentice of Darth Sidious. Not just this, but Darth Sidious decided to share his knowledge about the exploits of Darth Malgus with Darth Vader to inspire his apprentice and grant him the opportunity to learn some stuff from the data as well. Any intellectual person can understand the difference here.

 

May I ask for a quote on Sidious learning more from Malgus? I've looked through the Book of Sith and some respect threads but I can't find any evidence for it apart from battlefield tactics. Also Sidious getting Vader to study Malgus only means that Sidious thought Vader could learn from it, which is not surprising because, as noted by Luke Skywalker in the Book of Sith, Vader likely studied Malgus just after he became Sidious' apprentice meaning he was still adjusting to his suit and was adjusting his combat style and Sidious simply thought that Vader could learn from Malgus' journal. Also I don't know if I'm interpreting this wrong but are you meaning to insult me with that last line?

 

Darth Vader cannot perform Force Maelstrom, therefore he logically does not compares to Darth Malgus in its use and proficiency. Darth Vader's limitations hinder him from honing his talents in the Dark Side and develop new powers.

 

Superiority of a Force-user is not just determined on the basis of demonstrations of raw power but also on the basis of his understanding of the ways of the Force in general. Darth Malgus evidently matches Darth Vader in all fronts and then some. Darth Malgus is among the pioneers of some Sith powers; his knowledge enabled Darth Sidious to devise Force Storm (Wormhole) technique. Do the math.

 

What reason do you have to say that Vader's limitations him from honing his talents in the Dark Side? The only powers he cannot use, in comparison to Malgus, are Force Lightning and Force Maelstrom.

 

As far as understanding the ways of the Force goes, Vader likely matches Malgus, if not surpasses Malgus' understanding due to his time as a Jedi and his time as a Sith. Also you're employing some faulty logic there, just because Malgus created a Force power does not mean he has a better understanding of the Force, otherwise we could say that Kit Fisto (created the Force Water Orb) has a better understanding of the Force than Yoda.

 

 

As I pointed out by me earlier, most of his documented feats represent events that took place years before his prime. However, Darth Malgus is officially stated to have (single-handedly) destroyed some Republic fortresses (and/or fortifications) in battles. So?

 

We can also consider feats of Satele Shan for comparison purpose. She destroyed the trunk of a gigantic tree with one-handed gesture while being pressed by Darth Malgus, causing its collapse. You understand how heavy a tree of that size is in real life on average? Hundreds of tons. So if Satele Shan could perform this feat (with ease) years before her prime, then imagine what Darth Malgus would be capable of during his prime since he is commonly assumed to be her superior.

 

As far as Satele Shan collapsing that tree with a gesture of one hand, Vader has done the same thing to a metal tower with casual ease, though not blocking a lightsaber, but the ease he did it with leads me to believe he could replicate that easily. Another factor you need to consider is that Vader can use telekinetic assaults without even making gestures, as seen in his duel with Luke in ESB, which may take Malgus by surprise, and it could be a problem for him against a duelist of Vader's caliber.

 

Also I'm probably going to ask if you want to agree to disagree at this point as I feel we're getting too off-topic, if a Vader vs Malgus thread pops up I'd be glad to continue this, it's been great debating though.

[PadsterPwns]

Huh? Luke from Return of the Jedi wouldn't be able to deal with Malgus, ***. Maybe he might be able to deal with versions 1 and 2, but False Emperor incarnation would destroy him. Remember that Luke wasn't at his prime during Return of the Jedi, at least if we're taking the EU into account, he wasn't even halfway to his prime. Malgus was definitely at his best as the False Emperor.

 

Also, didn't Malgus, like, kill 2 Jedi Grandmasters and nearly 3 before he hit his prime? It's no contest.

 

The only reason Luke beat Vader was because Vader was holding back like a little *****. Malgus will not hold back.

 

Malgus didn't kill any Grandmasters, he killed one Battlemaster and was winning against Satele Shan on Alderaan but that's it apart from some other regular Jedi.

[S_W_LeGenD]

No problem , personally I feel if you have to lie in a debate you shouldn't be debating.

I appreciate your honesty.

 

Thank you for providing that.

You're welcome.

 

Can you give me a source that says Juyo requires mastery of all forms? In The Jedi Path it states that to study Juyo you have to of mastered multiple forms, not all of them, as does Battlemaster Cin Drallig's recording on the form. While this obviously doesn't detract from Malgus it still means that he may not have mastered all of the forms of lightsaber combat, possibly giving Vader an advantage.

Cin Drallig once stated this:

 

Form VII, also called Juyo, is the most difficult and demanding of all the forms. Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control this discipline, which can lead to fantastic power and skill."

 

I am not sure if (multiple) dueling Forms indicate (all) dueling Forms. However, as disclosed earlier, the Sith Warriors (of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire) preferred to master Shii-Cho, Soresu, Shien and Juyo Forms. So these are a given.

 

As for the supposed advantage, I don't think that it is necessary to master (all) dueling Forms to have an edge in a strictly Lightsaber duel. Look no further then the outcome of a duel between Anakin Skywalker and Cin Drallig.

 

Each dueling Form have a history behind its conception and represents a mindset. Each have a shortcoming as well and it is foolish to assume that any dueling Form is (technically) infallible. Effectiveness in a Lightsaber duel is not just dependent upon technical skill but even more-so on additional factors such as effective utilization of personal strengths, sync between the mindset and a dueling Form, command of the Force and tactics.

 

A Jedi may (technically) master all dueling Forms but not all of them will psychologically appeal to him. Skywalker preferred Form V because it enabled him to utilize his immense raw power effectively; this is how he overwhelmed Count Dooku. Contrary to the popular belief, Dooku was not an inferior swordsman in this case. In reality, Skywalker had advantage in strength and put it to good use in this case. Now this was not a sudden breakthrough as some might assume; Skywalker had fought Dooku several times before and learned (from experience) how to effectively utilize his personal strengths and address his shortcomings to defeat Dooku.

 

Similarly, Darth Malgus apparently switched to Form V after his failure to achieve a breakthrough in a duel against Jedi Master Kao Cen Darach; and when he (i.e. Darth Malgus) switched to Form V, the tide of this battle shifted decisively in his favor. Reason is that Darth Malguus was able to bring his immense raw power to bear effectively after switching to Form V and he overwhelmed Darach as a consequence. Again, Darach was not an inferior swordsman. However, Darth Malgus had advantage in strength and put it to good use.

 

Now, did you ever wonder why Dooku didn't switch to Form VI to tackle Skywalker? Form VI enables a Force-user to create opportunities to use his Force powers effectively during a confrontation. Dooku was a powerful Force-user and specialized in its offensive use. However, he had reached an understanding with Palpatine (earlier) to lure Skywalker to the Dark side and if things go wrong then Palpatine would intervene and save him. Unfortunately for Dooku, he didn't suspect Palpatine's treachery and paid the price. Not trying to cheapen Skywalker's performance but pointing out another side of the story (published) that is often overlooked. Without such an understanding, I believe that Dooku could create an opportunity to escape at minimum (if not win).

 

One point I would like to make is how Malgus may have trouble compensating against Vader's peculiar hybrid form. While I am not suggesting Malgus would be unable to deal with this I believe it would still grant Vader a slight edge at least at the start of combat as it has been described as unpredictable before and I highly doubt Malgus has faced anything akin to Vader's hybrid form.

Darach also had adopted hybrid combat style. He utilized Trakata (a rarely practiced and acknowledged talent) which enables a Jedi to activate a secondary Lightsaber during an opportunistic moment to catch the opponent off-guard; this is how Darach impaled the unsuspecting Lord Vindican.

 

Exar Kun is rumored to have practiced Trakata. However, I am not sure if Darth Vader ever did.

 

A G-canon statement from George Lucas overrides those quotes, as does the existence of many powerful Jedi at the time of the PT Order.

George Lucas is largely irrelevant now. At least, I don't put much stock in his sayings unless it becomes absolutely necessary (my policy is same for the sayings of all authors). Published literature directly contradicts this assertion and therefore I get the impression that this assertion is not officially recognized as a part of continuity.

 

I didn't notice (many) powerful Jedi during the PT era. Yoda, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Plo Koon, Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Shaak Ti are the only names that come to mind. There might be some others but they are not powerhouses and/or lack publicity.

 

While Cin Drallig did lose to Vader, note that Vader was a master of Djem-So. In The Jedi Path it is stated that "those who can balance it's intimidating aspects with the compassionate application of the Force may succeed in besting even their battlemasters.", now note that Vader was the best Djem-So user of his time, his prowess in the form being so high that he was consistently stalemating Count Dooku throughout the Clone Wars and killed him in RotS. Dooku being noted as only second to Yoda and an equal of Mace Windu's, perhaps slightly below the latter.

See above.

 

While Drallig is likely beneath Malgus (and even then I'd say it's mainly due to force power rather than lightsaber skill, though that's a different topic entirely ) he is likely above the level of the Sith warriors with Malgus, my reasoning being his mastery of forms I-VI, his study of form VII and the fact that Dooku considered Drallig an opponent who could threaten and possibly beat Grievous. Dooku's claim is likely accurate as well giving that he trained Grievous, has sparred with him numerous times and was a lightsaber instructor himself meaning he likely knew Drallig and his ability. Honestly with all of this taken into account I think that Drallig is underrated sometimes. Again not arguing that Drallig is on Zallow's tier but I am saying that Vader's duel against Drallig is at least on level, if not better, than Malgus' duel with Zallow considering that Drallig had back up but still got destroyed by a pre-prime, hindered Vader.

Well, you may blame poor publicity or story-telling in this case. Logically, Drallig should not suck but his poor performance in canon does not bodes well for his reputation. Why officially hype a character as one of the most skilled only to give it fodder treatment? Doesn't sounds like good story-telling.

 

General Grievous is another (over) glorified warrior. He used dirty tactics to defeat Nahdar vebb, lost to Kit Fisto, lost to Asajj Ventress, failed to defeat Ahsoka Tano and lost to Obi-Wan Kenobi. No matter how much the Legends content hyped him, his failures should not be overlooked. He acquired the reputation of being a coward for a reason.

 

Darth Malgus was not the only standout warrior among those who raided the Jedi Temple on Coruscant. His peers included Lord Praven who was also a fantastic warrior and officially defeated one of the finest warriors of the Jedi Order in an epic duel during this battle. He also defeated Jedi Master Bella Kiwiiks in a confrontation some years later and represented a (Boss) opponent for the legendary Hero of Tython in STORY CONTENT. Eye-witnesses on Tatooine claimed that they have never witnessed a warrior whose skills matched Lord Praven's.

 

Now, I am not asserting that (each) Sith Warrior involved in the raid of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant was on the level of Sith Lords such as Darth Malgus and Lord Praven but (each) was officially impressive and handpicked for this mission. They numbered 50 in total and collectively killed hundreds of Jedi inside the Jedi Temple while suffering few losses. Therefore, their is no guarantee that Drallig could contend with all of them [1 on 1].

 

Before I concede on the quote that sates Vader is 80% of Sidious please could you provide me with the quote that states Dooku and Maul are around Vader's level in Force power and command of the Force? I have looked in respect threads for both Maul and Dooku and couldn't find a quote, in fact the only quote I found stated "His power isn’t on Vader’s level, true, or even on Count Dooku’s level — but that never stops him. He stands alongside the Sith Lords only by sheer force of will.", this being stated about Maul by the writer of Son of Dathomir series. Also the way I perceived the context and the message was twofold:

 

1) George was explaining Anakin's potential before the duel on Mustafar.

2) George was stating Vader's actual power in comparison to Sidious.

Here:

 

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that." (George Lucas)

 

This is authentic.

 

I'm going to have to disagree on Malgus' hype being superior to Vader's. While Palpatine recognizing Malgus as the most accomplished warrior in galactic history is certainly a great accolade, I feel it falls short to Palpatine regarding Vader as the greatest Jedi killer of all time (source: Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force) as this puts him over the like of General Grievous and Tulak Hord. As well as this he has been seen as far more powerful in the force than Kar Vastor by Nick Rostu, which is an amazingly great accolade considering that it puts him far above Mace Windu (who considered himself weaker than Kar Vastor) and by extension above Mace's council peers bar Yoda.

Palpatine doesn't have absolute knowledge of everything (some mistakenly presume that he is all-knowing). His assessment is based on what he knows, and his knowledge about history of Darth Malgus is also limited.

 

Tulak Hord killed over a thousand Jedi in a short span and his combat prowess and incredible power inspired legends for years to come. He never lost in a battle. Centuries later, Darth Traya remarked that the Jedi of her time were like children playing with toys in comparison to legends like Hord.* He was just as formidable in Force abilities; he developed new powers and conducted deadly experiments with Sith Sorcery to hone his Dark Side abilities (much like Valkorion) and his telekinetic powers were sufficient to affect massive vessels like Yoda. I believe that Tulak Hord eclipsed all ancients barring Valkorion and I wouldn't compare Darth Vader to him.

 

*When I came to know about this, I was like *** in a funny way.

 

Regarding that opinion of Mace Windu; Jedi are known to be humble in their perceptions about their peers and hold them in high regard. I wouldn't take such opinions at face value unless I know the context. Obi-Wan Kenobi once remarked that Kit Fisto was relatively superior swordsman then him and I find this opinion questionable based on on-screen portrayals of both. Even if Fisto is comparable to Kenobi in technical skill, Kenobi is more powerful and therefore have advantage.

 

In addition Palpatine has described Vader's powers as unparalleled, he has been noted as one of THE most powerful Sith Lords in galactic history, he is described as "an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder".

This hype is from Prima Official Game Guide for The Force Unleashed II. I am not sure if Prima Official Guides are valid sources to hype a character. I have never cited these sources in my debates so far.

 

A pre-prime Vader has been stated as being more powerful than Jeric, Jeric being a powerful (and quite underrated) Force user capable of using Force Destruction (a highly advanced variant of Force Wave) to force an entire Cargo Ship out of its docking and using Drain Knowledge which let Jeric in duels to instantly know an opponents fighting style while also causing harm to the opponents psyche.

Jerec damaged the docking bay which led to a Cargo ship falling into a massive pit below. The fall of Cargo ship was an indirect consequence of damage inflicted to the docking bay; Jerec didn't directly affect the Cargo ship with his powers. Besides, didn't Kyle Katarn survive that incident?

 

Darth Malgus, by virtue of being acknowledged as one of the strongest predecessors of Darth Sidious, should be logically above many powerhouses throughout the galactic timeline.

 

First of all let me say I have no idea why I chose to compare Force Screams as both are involuntary meaning they have little input in this discussion. Saying that however I would like to note that Vader's Force Scream has melted durasteel a very impressive feat considering durasteel is noted to be heat resistance and it is also superior to Malgus buckling transparisteel as durasteel is noted to be much stronger than the former, transparisteel being used for viewports as it is transparent whereas durasteel, while stronger, is opaque meaning it could not be used in viewports. His Force Scream has also cracked walls and made the sensors of an entire building go "crazy". All in all I'd probably say that Vader edges out Malgus here as while Malgus' Force Screams were before his prime, so were Vader's, his most impressive Force Scream that melted durasteel being in RotS, so Vader could likely do much better in his prime as well.

But you are overlooking the aspect of destruction of an incoming squadron of Republic Starfighters; Darth Malgus's expression of anger spanned to such an extent and/or much of its energy dispersed in the air since Darth Malgus's attention was drawn towards the incident of a (falling) Harrower-class Starship at a distance earlier and it fueled his anger.

 

Now, you pointed out that Force Screams are involuntary expressions of raw power so it is possible that the energy released from them are unpredictable in their patterns of contact; they might be potent on one end but not so much on the other end.

 

However, these expressions can still be considered as valid examples of capabilities of a Force-user in the aspects of raw power. Should they try voluntarily, they may achieve comparable results.

 

For example, a Force Scream unleashed by Darth Malgus during a moment of anger inside the Jedi Temple, collapsed one of its nearby columns. So if Darth Malgus attempts the same voluntarily, I don't see a reason why he cannot achieve the same result.

 

Believe me, I will make no mistake, I know Malgus is a powerhouse but so is Vader, particularly in telekinetic ability. Vader has Force Crushed a TIE Fighter whilst it was flying, this being particularly note worthy as crushing something has been noted to take more effort than simply TK'ing it and his target was likely moving at sublight speeds showcasing Vader's precise command of the Force.

Darth Malgus have demonstrated comparable potency years before his prime; see my explanation above.

 

He has collapsed an entire cathedral 20 years before his prime whilst severely injured, this being incredibly impressive due to the sheer size of the cathedral and this feat demonstrates Vader's outstanding raw Force power in combination with his extraordinary Force enhanced endurance and focus.

I don't have an idea of the size of this Cathedral. Can you show me a picture?

 

Darth Malgus doesn't have such monumental showings but he defeated a powerful Jedi who managed to collapse two (damaged) buildings simultaneously in an effort to crush the Sith Lord beneath tons of rubble but his plan failed. This event also took place years before Darth Malgus reached his prime.

 

 

Taken from The Third Lesson

 

Malgus fell into the Force, roared, and bounded down the street, his anger lending him speed.

 

The Jedi held his ground. At twenty meters, the Jedi raised his lightsabers aloft to either side and drew them both down with a flourish.

 

Too late the rumble of the falling buildings penetrated the haze of Malgus's anger. An avalanche of duracrete and transparisteel crashed down on him from either side of the street...

 

 

---

 

As well as this Vader has Force Gripped the Starkiller clone from The Force Unleashed II, this feat possibly being Vader's best TK feat as the Starkiller clone has demonstrated immense Force feats with him being capable of disintegrating half of a 300 meter long ship. The fact that Vader could do this is even more impressive as this was years before Vader's prime. Has Malgus done anything remotely near to TFU II Starkiller's feat of disintegrating half of a 300 meter long ship? AFAIK he hasn't which means Vader is his superior in TK and even if this doesn't convince you, Vader has many more TK feats and the ones I've listed here, especially the last one, blow Leener's and the Jedi Master's TK feats out of the water.

But Darth Vader failed to defeat Starkiller, right?

 

Now, even if Darth Vader have some superior individualistic showings, we have the element of power-scaling to take in to consideration for Darth Malgus since most of his feats represent events years before his prime.

 

May I ask for a quote on Sidious learning more from Malgus? I've looked through the Book of Sith and some respect threads but I can't find any evidence for it apart from battlefield tactics.

The book does not reveals how Darth Sidious learned about Force Maelstrom from Darth Malgus but we can make assumptions. It is possible that Darth Sidious found a holocron of Darth Malgus and checked it.

 

Also Sidious getting Vader to study Malgus only means that Sidious thought Vader could learn from it, which is not surprising because, as noted by Luke Skywalker in the Book of Sith, Vader likely studied Malgus just after he became Sidious' apprentice meaning he was still adjusting to his suit and was adjusting his combat style and Sidious simply thought that Vader could learn from Malgus' journal.

Fair point.

 

Also I don't know if I'm interpreting this wrong but are you meaning to insult me with that last line?

No.

 

What reason do you have to say that Vader's limitations him from honing his talents in the Dark Side? The only powers he cannot use, in comparison to Malgus, are Force Lightning and Force Maelstrom.

And these two powers can be game-changers, my friend.

 

For example, Darth Malgus defeated Aryn Leener with Force Lightning.

 

Darth Vader did not delve into the matters of Sith Sorcery much due to the limitations imposed on him by his suit.

 

As far as understanding the ways of the Force goes, Vader likely matches Malgus, if not surpasses Malgus' understanding due to his time as a Jedi and his time as a Sith. Also you're employing some faulty logic there, just because Malgus created a Force power does not mean he has a better understanding of the Force, otherwise we could say that Kit Fisto (created the Force Water Orb) has a better understanding of the Force than Yoda.

I am not sure if Force Orb is an invention of Kit Fisto; never implied as such.

 

As far as Satele Shan collapsing that tree with a gesture of one hand, Vader has done the same thing to a metal tower with casual ease, though not blocking a lightsaber, but the ease he did it with leads me to believe he could replicate that easily. Another factor you need to consider is that Vader can use telekinetic assaults without even making gestures, as seen in his duel with Luke in ESB, which may take Malgus by surprise, and it could be a problem for him against a duelist of Vader's caliber.

You make an interesting point here but I don't think that this would be sufficient to dampen Darth Malgus's resolve.

 

And what if Darth Malgus decides to call upon a Force Maelstrom? Darth Vader might be overwhelmed.

 

Also I'm probably going to ask if you want to agree to disagree at this point as I feel we're getting too off-topic, if a Vader vs Malgus thread pops up I'd be glad to continue this, it's been great debating though.

No problem. And I appreciate your debating effort. Even if we are at an impasse, we shared a great deal of information. At least, I got the opportunity to discuss Darth Malgus in detail in this debate.

Edited November 1, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[PadsterPwns]

Snip

 

All I want to say is that the only known practitioners of Force Orb are Fisto and Anakin Skywalker and it is usually only applicable in underwater environments. From this I'm assuming that Fisto created it as it's first appearance was when he used it in the Battle of Mon Calamar (CW version) and logically it would make sense for Fisto to be the creator of this as he is an amphibious species and is an expert in underwater combat.

 

Also great debate, I learnt quite a few things about Malgus and sharpened my debating my debating skills.

[-Chickenwalker-]

Who wins? Whoever as the strongest plot armor.

[Aeneas_Falco]

Vader > Malgus

 

RotJ Luke defeated Vader. The safe money wouldn't be on Malgus.