Why scaling should not be optional

[Max_Killjoy]

(not sure if you meant me) but that was never my intentions here. it ended up becoming that as i made the mistake of being called a tyrant and trying to force people into slavery and wanting to kill all solo play personal when i should have kept the topic on form.

 

"Present company excepted." -- which meant you weren't part of the "most" in question.

[Rafaman]

I don't regret it. I do however regret that I have come across in some of my posts as mean and for that I am truly sorry.

 

Some of the posts were I was compared to a tyrant or that I wanted to enslave people just got to me.

 

I sincerely hope that no one (including myself) has any hard feelings over this thread.

 

Nah, I wouldn't worry about it. This is all just the anxiousness before the xpac drop. You are going to see more of this in the coming weeks as people get excited both in a good and bad way. Some will love the story, some will not. Some will say the game is dead, others will say it is the best it has ever been, etc. etc.

 

You know the drill I'm sure. And I certainly don't take things personally. In any forums of this ilk you take everything with a little grain of salt and you get immunized from the personal attacks. lol.

 

In the end, this is a good place to hash things out, but rarely does anything good come out of these discussions. It does happen, but it is rare.

[Icestar]

They do as they have planed and when the dust as settled from certain players I am sure they will play this too

[MeNaCe-NZ]

While I'm ok with scaling (as long as we get to keep all abilities learned) I can also see the enticement of the above.

 

You have a hard time soloing something at a lower level, so you gain experience and then complete it with ease the next time you try.

 

Sure, it's easy to attribute that to actual game experience gained to level up...but it also gives the immersion of someone getting better with experience in their own craft...and with this game being Star Wars...if you look at a Force User, the more experienced is almost always better.

 

Soloing something intended to be done as a group though. That's fine and you can still go back and do it just don't expect to be rewarded what the content gave those that did it as it was intended to be done.

 

As far as I know these changes aren't actually impairing players ability to do anything intended to be solo from the get go.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

On a related note, why are some people so concerned about whether or not someone "earned" something in a game? There are plenty of people who didn't earn what they've got, or don't have what they've earned, in real life -- worry about that, if you're going to spend time worrying about "earned". This is a game, it's supposed to be fun, stop worrying about other people and just concern yourself with the enjoyment of the game.

 

Why are you so concerned with what other people think? Stop worrying about what other people think and just concern yourself with the enjoyment of the game.

[Max_Killjoy]

They do as they have planed and when the dust as settled from certain players I am sure they will play this too

 

Open-world scaling would be the final nail in the coffin, the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

Flashpoint and/or Heroic scaling would be... another straw, maybe not the last one. It would certainly remove another bit of content from the shrinking list of things I actually ever bother with in SWTOR.

 

Why bother playing if it's not fun, right?

Edited September 26, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Jeweledleah]

In my opinion you didn't earn it. That's what this is all about of course, our opinions. You felt you earned it I felt you didn't, no changing either of our mind.

 

What ACTUALLY matters is what BW thinks. Based on what can be seen currently they are in agreement with my attitude that if you want to run the godmode content then fine enjoy it. However don't expect to be rewarded for it because they also don't believe you earned it otherwise they wouldn't be putting in this change.

 

 

 

Right, I forgot you work for Bioware. My mistake.

 

It is likely a 2 pronged attack in that yes, they don't want you getting rewards from it using godmode but they will leave that option there if you insist on doing it. Also you probably correct in having them give people the option of running more challenging content again if they want to hunt the rewards - however they are not forcing people to do this by making it optional.

 

 

 

If it has nothing to do with earning rewards then how do you even justify the point you just made? It's everything to do with rewards if they only difference between us is me using level sync and doing content then getting a reward and you using godmode and getting no reward.

 

 

 

Late to what party? New/existing players start toons all the time and work their way through content earning rewards for their accomplishments, time has nothing to do with it.

 

Also how are they removing any options of how you choose to play the game by making this an optional choice? If anything they are adding options. You just can't get past your own greed and give up your little precious shinies you did nothing to earn.

 

Me I can go run some heroics on Korriban and the new players there will have 1 extra person to help them now where as before I wouldn't bother grouping since I could godmode it.

 

This is for the greater good and all that and unfortunately a few of you greedy players can't get over the fact you might be losing your golden goose.

 

 

 

If playing semi challenging content is such sufferage ( come on, it's hardly difficult ) for you then maybe you should be going to find something else to do. How anyone can find godmoding things "fun" is beyond me but at the least Bioware can stop rewarding them for their mediocrity.

 

 

 

The door is that way, see you around. At least I won't have to put up with one less strawman.

 

wow. just wow. you are a piece of work. must be "fun" at parties

 

btw - no new group content? that's not me making **** up. this is bioware stating, officially that there will be no new content until sometime in 2016. bioware stated, clearly in their official little post that they are not even starting to work on it, until after expansion is released. it takes a few month to design and test group content.

 

and you don't know what bioware thinks anymore than I do. you just assume that they want to bar people from being able to circumvent some of the RNG baring existing rewards. and no, honey. its not challenge that bars them. content is doable enough in a group and I have done in plenty - both with guild and with random people. the "challenge" is winning a roll for an item you want. maybe some people find it fun to keep losing rolls over and over. I don't. it gets real old real fast. there is NO virtue, NO "earning" anything in losing rolls over and over until you say F it and just buy it with credits on GTN. there's certainly NO earning involved in paying a group of people to run you through content and letting you keep all the rewards. the things we do to negate some of the rng ********...

 

but hey, you keep thinking its about merit. you keep thinking that your way or the highway and punishing people for DARING, how DARE they play in a way you don't approve of, those philistines (are you also against casual difficulty in single player games? you sound like you might be)

 

you have a nice day now

[MeNaCe-NZ]

One ridiculous argument deserved another.

 

I know hence why I replied to yours with mine.

[Max_Killjoy]

Why are you so concerned with what other people think? Stop worrying about what other people think and just concern yourself with the enjoyment of the game.

 

I don't care what they think. I do care when they're actively pushing for changes that will make the game less enjoyable for me. How is that not a clear difference?

[Upirlikhyi]

"Present company excepted." -- which meant you weren't part of the "most" in question.

 

sorry Max...i am not fully here tonight. I really should be hitting bed but I wont lol

[Max_Killjoy]

I know hence why I replied to yours with mine.

 

Yes. "It's an MMORPG, you must do this content in groups!" and "It's an MMORPG, you must RP this content!" are equally ridiculous arguments to make regarding this game.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

wow. just wow. you are a piece of work. must be "fun" at parties

 

You kind of know the argument is over and you've nothing left to offer when you have to basically start your reort with personal insults but ok, let's see what you can strawman this time.

 

btw - no new group content? that's not me making **** up. this is bioware stating, officially that there will be no new content until sometime in 2016. bioware stated, clearly in their official little post that they are not even starting to work on it, until after expansion is released. it takes a few month to design and test group content.

 

I know very well the type of game that I'm playing. I'm however NOT happy with developers arbitrarily deciding to change this games type three years into its existence. wait. no. not arbitrarily. because they need to create an illusion of max level content. since they are adding no new one.

 

Oh right you meant group content, should be more careful about what you post then because you said max level content there champ.

 

and you don't know what bioware thinks anymore than I do. you just assume that they want to bar people from being able to circumvent some of the RNG baring existing rewards. and no, honey. its not challenge that bars them. content is doable enough in a group and I have done in plenty - both with guild and with random people. the "challenge" is winning a roll for an item you want.

maybe some people find it fun to keep losing rolls over and over. I don't. it gets real old real fast. there is NO virtue, NO "earning" anything in losing rolls over and over until you say F it and just buy it with credits on GTN. there's certainly NO earning involved in paying a group of people to run you through content and letting you keep all the rewards. the things we do to negate some of the rng ********...

 

There is plenty of information around showing that the RNG element is going away with the optional scaling. Not what could be considered official information but then this entire topic is based on unofficial information so it would be a bit weak to start complaining about no one having definitive BW proof now after arguing an entire topic that is based solely on unofficial information.

 

but hey, you keep thinking its about merit. you keep thinking that your way or the highway and punishing people for DARING, how DARE they play in a way you don't approve of, those philistines (are you also against casual difficulty in single player games? you sound like you might be)

 

you have a nice day now

 

I'm looking at the change as a whole which includes the RNG changes.

 

Why do you keep bringing up this single player nonsense? Where did I say the single player aspects of this game should be changed?

The changes are coming to the multiplayer aspect of it that it just so happens you can choose to do solo in godmode. The single player aspects seem to remain intact as is.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I don't care what they think. I do care when they're actively pushing for changes that will make the game less enjoyable for me. How is that not a clear difference?

 

Of course you do otherwise you wouldn't be vehemently attack their point of view.

 

Maybe people are likewise in favour of these changes because it might make the game more enjoyable for them?

 

Removing the carrot from the stick of being able to solo group content means more people will do group the group content meaning more enjoyment for me in being able to find groups to do it with as I look forward to being able to do it grouped and at level.

 

You can still solo it if you like of course, just stop expecting hand outs.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Yes. "It's an MMORPG, you must do this content in groups!" and "It's an MMORPG, you must RP this content!" are equally ridiculous arguments to make regarding this game.

 

The content I'm talking about pretty much tells you that you require a group to do it ( Heroics/FPs ), I don't see any content where it tells me I need to RP to do it?

 

FWIW I don't give a crap about open world solo scaling. I don't see why anyone would bother having it on except for world bosses ideally but then thats group content too. From what I've seen/heard if you kill an open world mob with scaling on or off there is no difference in the reward you get, same for heroics/FPs I believe.

 

It's the reward system you get for actually completing content that seems to be changing. That is to say there will be a big carrot on the stick for doing X carrot with scaling on but no carrot for not having scaling on. The drops within the heroics may very well stay the same.

[MillionsKNives]

Yet if it changes with 4.0 to how it seems it is then that IS how it will be. I mean we are ideally tlaking how it's going to be changed now really how it is now. If nothing was changing we wouldn't be having this argument.

 

Too bad he was speaking in absolutes, not in terms of "it would be better if". You can't say "no that's not how it works" when that's exactly how it works.

 

We're talking about how we think it's going to work, and our opinions of it, as the details haven't been confirmed or set in stone.

 

What's being removed other than "free" loot? You might not think it's free but in the future if this change goes ahead then you might be confusing how it is with how you wish it was.

 

Firstly, it's not free loot. Free loot wouldn't have to be earned by going and doing the content, it would just be handed to you. Secondly, it's not just the loot that people run lower level content for.

 

No, if this change goes through I won't be confusing how it is with how I wish it was, because I wouldn't phrase my responses as though how it is is how I wish it was. Sorry to burst your bubble, I know you thought it was clever trying to turn my own statement on me.

 

Now that's changing, you lose your reward but can still do the content. Unless you are implying they shouldn't change the game because it's been around 3.5 years and this is how it must remain because this change personally annoys you?

 

I would think then if that's the case you are again confusing how it is with how you wish it is.

 

Thanks for purposefully taking my words out of context. Rafaman said that this "type of game" doesn't fit Jeweldleah's position and therefore she should leave the game. And yet this game already supports her position, directly contradicting Rafaman's statement.

[robertthebard]

The content I'm talking about pretty much tells you that you require a group to do it ( Heroics/FPs ), I don't see any content where it tells me I need to RP to do it?

 

FWIW I don't give a crap about open world solo scaling. I don't see why anyone would bother having it on except for world bosses ideally but then thats group content too. From what I've seen/heard if you kill an open world mob with scaling on or off there is no difference in the reward you get, same for heroics/FPs I believe.

 

It's the reward system you get for actually completing content that seems to be changing. That is to say there will be a big carrot on the stick for doing X carrot with scaling on but no carrot for not having scaling on. The drops within the heroics may very well stay the same.

 

If they leave the drop mechanics like they are now, then I'd say that's a fairly accurate assessment. Doing one of the mid 30s BH quests on Hutta yielded medpacs as drops that were dropping in the open world when I was leveling there, the lvl 8 ones, I think.

[Rafaman]

Open-world scaling would be the final nail in the coffin, the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

Flashpoint and/or Heroic scaling would be... another straw, maybe not the last one. It would certainly remove another bit of content from the shrinking list of things I actually ever bother with in SWTOR.

 

Why bother playing if it's not fun, right?

 

You must have a lot of nails and a stack of straw. Lol. You have said similar things regarding story, companions etc. etc.

 

So, really. You aren't going to play KoTFE. And that begs the question... you know the one.

[Jeweledleah]

I just had to pop back in for a sec becasue I'm still giggling at irony that solo grinding some dailies for a few days (or just buying some cartel market packs to sell) to buy rewards that normally drop in group content only GTN - constitutes as earning them. while outleveling said content to solo it yourself and get a drop directly? does not count as earning it.

 

its hilarious. it really is.

 

thanks for the laugh of the evening.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Jeweledleah

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Firstly, it's not free loot. Free loot wouldn't have to be earned by going and doing the content, it would just be handed to you. Secondly, it's not just the loot that people run lower level content for.

 

In my eyes it's effectively free hence why I put it in quotation marks as I wasn't being entirely literal. No challenge what so other is that effectively makes it "free" in my eyes.

Secondly the only real change as I see it is to the loot system if you want to solo group content over leveled. So if there are other reasons I imagine they'll still be applicable.

 

No, if this change goes through I won't be confusing how it is with how I wish it was, because I wouldn't phrase my responses as though how it is is how I wish it was. Sorry to burst your bubble, I know you thought it was clever trying to turn my own statement on me.

 

Oh I just thought we were putting words in other peoples mouths now since that's effectively what you did with Rafa by assuming he wished it were a certain way.

 

Thanks for purposefully taking my words out of context. Rafaman said that this "type of game" doesn't fit Jeweldleah's position and therefore she should leave the game. And yet this game already supports her position, directly contradicting Rafaman's statement.

 

It's hardly out of context, the 3.5 years comment seemed to be solely for implying "this is how it is so this is how it should remain", perhaps you didn't mean it that way but that did seem to be the point you were making by bringing it up anyway.

As to the type of game or more specifically the effected content being discussed here - group content. It seems more they are fixing an error in letting people solo the group content later for the same rewards as those that do it at it's challenging point ( solo or grouped though it's much tougher solo ).

So not necessarily change for changes sake but fixing up somewhat of a loophole.

[Max_Killjoy]

You must have a lot of nails and a stack of straw. Lol. You have said similar things regarding story, companions etc. etc.

 

So, really. You aren't going to play KoTFE. And that begs the question... you know the one.

 

We;ll, until there's always alts, though with companion gearing reduced to dressup dolls and the leveling content "streamlined" and several other announced or rumored changes, that's going to lose some appeal.

 

There''s always those things I didn't do at level I can go back and see the content... well, no, not with forced downscaling, so that's off the list.

 

I could mess around with different skill builds... oh, wait, that's been gone for a while.

 

 

I guess at this point I'm just playing the game while I still can enjoy it, and then... I don't know.

[VitalityPrime]

We;ll, until there's always alts, though with companion gearing reduced to dressup dolls and the leveling content "streamlined" and several other announced or rumored changes, that's going to lose some appeal.

 

There''s always those things I didn't do at level I can go back and see the content... well, no, not with forced downscaling, so that's off the list.

 

I guess at this point I'm just playing the game while I still can enjoy it, and then... I don't know.

 

I really believe that going back to do things will still be fun, because I believe that we will still have access to all our learned abilities, and our stat scaling will be at the max level for said area. So you will still be more powerful than you were when you first encountered said area.

 

Granted, that's just me assuming how it will work.

 

EDIT: I have to admit...and I say this in all fun...your name is perfect for how you're reacting to this.

Edited September 26, 2015 by VitalityPrime

[Jeweledleah]

I really believe that going back to do things will still be fun, because I believe that we will still have access to all our learned abilities, and our stat scaling will be at the max level for said area. So you will still be more powerful than you were when you first encountered said area.

 

Granted, that's just me assuming how it will work.

 

EDIT: I have to admit...and I say this in all fun...your name is perfect for how you're reacting to this.

 

that's how it works in GW2, so its a safe assumption to make. that said one of the main reasons for going back over-leveled is being able to breathe through content and skip majority of the mobs? still having to grind through all of them? eh. gets pretty old pretty fast. unless you are playing a stealther of course. the other - being able to solo group content without having to search for group, wait for everyone to get there, play at someone else's pace, etc etc.

 

honestly? I view downscaling the way I view playing on pvp servers. as in - I don't. pretty big on being able to chose if and when to group and if/when to solo. being essentially strong armed into grouping via scaling? not fun.

 

at least in GW2 - you don't actualy need to physically group to do out in a world content. usually dynamic event starts and you just kinda go with it. difficulty of mobs scales up with number of people who show up to participate so you can actualy solo dynamic events, in case no other people are around (and there's no such thing as tagging - everyone who hits the mob even once - gets credit and personal loot) you can even join in on world boss kills that way (and I have)

 

as far as we know? bioware is not going full GW2 here. loot is still of the "roll on it and hope that RNG favors you" variety. mobs are still tagged, so you HAVE to physically group up. etc etc.

 

another option which I don't see ANYONE fighting against is mentoring system. where your high level friend (or you) can join you (or your friend) for some group content and CHOSE to be down-leveled to its level. as far as I know it exists or existed in multiple games successfully (since choice is an operative word here) the one I have personally played is Wildstar.

 

the funny part is? mentoring system is what people have ACTUALLY been asking for. not being mandatory scaled down.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Jeweledleah

[MillionsKNives]

Oh I just thought we were putting words in other peoples mouths now since that's effectively what you did with Rafa by assuming he wished it were a certain way.

 

Putting words in his mouth by assuming he wished it were a certain way? So he didn't say this?

 

No sweetie. The reward is not for completing the task. It is for completing the task at the appropriate level. See the difference?

 

People like you can't seem to understand the type of game you are playing. Greener pastures, there they are, but my guess you will have problems once you get there too.

 

Or this?

Wrong. Sorry, but that is a complete misunderstanding of what an MMO is and what you as a player are getting into here.

 

WBs were not and are not meant to be solo'ed. That is why they are WBs. You have to work hard to achieve a kill and that will include a group. If you don't want the challenge or want less of a challenge then you can choose other things. And that doesn't preclude you from jumping in a group forming to take down said boss at any time and letting others do all the work for you. lol

 

You think you are entitled to your own brand of gameplay, and you are. But the devs force you to play in a particular way. Lol. That is why you play, in fact, this type of game or maybe that is why you shouldn't play this game. This isn't a democracy. You don't need a bill of rights to play here.

 

Bravo to the devs for making things interesting again!

 

My opinions are my own, I speak for no one, but if you don't realize that grouping and challenging content is a part of an MMO, which this still is btw, then I think you may be looking for another type of game.

 

Please do explain what words I was putting into his mouth.

 

It's hardly out of context, the 3.5 years comment seemed to be solely for implying "this is how it is so this is how it should remain", perhaps you didn't mean it that way but that did seem to be the point you were making by bringing it up anyway.

As to the type of game or more specifically the effected content being discussed here - group content. It seems more they are fixing an error in letting people solo the group content later for the same rewards as those that do it at it's challenging point ( solo or grouped though it's much tougher solo ).

So not necessarily change for changes sake but fixing up somewhat of a loophole.

 

The 3.5 years comment was used to accentuate just how long this game has been supporting something that is supposedly not something that this type of game supports.

 

But since we brought up "this is how it is and so this is how it should remain", to your point on the loophole I would again point out that no matter what the devs may have intended for it originally, having it in the game for this long makes it a feature. So by removing the option to go back and do old content to get rewards you missed, they are removing a long standing feature in the game.

 

I would like to get clarification on what exactly you think is changing in this regard, because as I understand it the moment you step onto a planet you will be deleveled to the planet max level + 2, and the same for flashpoints.

[devincor]

I do like going back and doing "god mode" on flashpoints on occasion with my saber swingers. It is the only time it feels like the movies.

 

Menace - It seems your issue is with the rewards of people soloing flashpoints/Heroics in "god mode". Could you clarify which rewards you think are too much for those who do this? I ask because i'm not sure if you are referring to the completion reward or drops. Either way, I don't see how it matters as the completion monetary reward is way lower than anything else I could do at my current level. The drops are the level of the Flashpoint/Heroic. So almost everything gets sold, and again not for very much. The only items I keep are the ones I attempted the flashpoint/Heroic to get, usually an cosmetic armor look or weapon. I usually have to do them a couple of times to actually get the piece I want. Is your argument that I should have to be at level and group with other so I have a chance of getting the item rather than running it myself a few times overleveled and not having to roll for it? I guess I am trying to understand what rewards (monetary, cosmetic?) do you think being so great that it should be denied to anyone over the level because it is too easy?

[Rafaman]

Thanks for purposefully taking my words out of context. Rafaman said that this "type of game" doesn't fit Jeweldleah's position and therefore she should leave the game. And yet this game already supports her position, directly contradicting Rafaman's statement.

 

 

Knives, I really don't understand your logic. lol. If it is in the game today it invalidates my position? So, I believe scaling the open world isn't a bad thing because you earn what you get by running content at level. Just because the game doesn't support that view today doesn't invalidate or contradict my argument.

 

Please quit trying to argue with me through others. Lol. If I feel your responses warrant address I will do it. But I didn't really feel the need earlier because really, we are all speculating. Current gameplay doesn't make that speculation valid or invalid. We are talking about what "could" be or how we think the game should be based on content at level.