Why scaling should not be optional

[robertthebard]

You are ignoring two of the three reasons people solo old flashpoints. So no, the reasons people like to solo outleveled content isn't gone. Only one reason to do so is addressed: that of seeing the story at your leisure.

 

1. Decorations, mounts, pets & armor. Solo mode flashpoints don't drop those, or drop them so rarely you have better chances of winning the lottery.

 

2. Solo challenge. Currently the only challenging solo content is soloing group content. Solo mode flashpoints are mind-numbingly easy.

 

To keep it fair and balanced they should offer hard mode solo versions that drop the same loot 25% of the time.

 

How, exactly, is soloing a level 50 FP at 65 in anyway challenging? I ran Battle of Ilum at 53 with Xalek on a heal spec'd sorc, and that was almost easy, barring the two champ mobs, which was challenging, with no deaths. At 65, it's not challenging, it's a cakewalk. So I'm not buying "We do it for the challenge, so it shouldn't be scaled up to actually be challenging".

[Rafaman]

How, exactly, is soloing a level 50 FP at 65 in anyway challenging? I ran Battle of Ilum at 53 with Xalek on a heal spec'd sorc, and that was almost easy, barring the two champ mobs, which was challenging, with no deaths. At 65, it's not challenging, it's a cakewalk. So I'm not buying "We do it for the challenge, so it shouldn't be scaled up to actually be challenging".

 

The mobs can't hurt you at all... literally. It is a facade. But some like the illusion.

[Jeweledleah]

They realize what some of you don't, that doing things at level with the right support is more rewarding literally and figuratively.

 

 

Come out of your solo silo and take a look around. You will have plenty of solo content soon, but just because something isn't a faceroll solo doesn't mean you are gated from it. It means that you are doing it wrong.

 

this is where you are wrong.

 

one. you do NOT get to decide that someone else is doing it wrong.

two. different people find different things rewarding at different times.

 

do NOT assume that you know best for everything.

 

and this is why OPTIONS are so important. options that you are so happy to deny to people in your narrow minded view of the game.

[Max_Killjoy]

He is against group content now, but not that long ago he was crying about the lack of group content and new Ops if that gives you any indication.

 

You have me seriously confused with someone else, you're experiencing trouble with reading comprehension, or you're just lying.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[VitalityPrime]

How, exactly, is soloing a level 50 FP at 65 in anyway challenging? I ran Battle of Ilum at 53 with Xalek on a heal spec'd sorc, and that was almost easy, barring the two champ mobs, which was challenging, with no deaths. At 65, it's not challenging, it's a cakewalk. So I'm not buying "We do it for the challenge, so it shouldn't be scaled up to actually be challenging".

 

 

While I'm ok with scaling (as long as we get to keep all abilities learned) I can also see the enticement of the above.

 

You have a hard time soloing something at a lower level, so you gain experience and then complete it with ease the next time you try.

 

Sure, it's easy to attribute that to actual game experience gained to level up...but it also gives the immersion of someone getting better with experience in their own craft...and with this game being Star Wars...if you look at a Force User, the more experienced is almost always better.

Edited September 26, 2015 by VitalityPrime

[Upirlikhyi]

Don't let Maxi troll you. He is well known here. He isn't even going to play the xpac if we are to believe his own words.

 

He is against group content now, but not that long ago he was crying about the lack of group content and new Ops if that gives you any indication.

 

BTW, your devils advocate post was fine. Some of us have taken up the banner, but it isn't yours. I get that. I appreciate that you started the conversation although I'm not so sure you do now.

 

I don't regret it. I do however regret that I have come across in some of my posts as mean and for that I am truly sorry.

 

Some of the posts were I was compared to a tyrant or that I wanted to enslave people just got to me.

 

I sincerely hope that no one (including myself) has any hard feelings over this thread.

[Faelandaea]

was making myself dinner just now

 

W.T.F.? Okay so trying to act as if gamers actually EAT is just . . . delusional. Put the frigging IV back in and get back in game, you filthy casual!

Edited September 26, 2015 by Faelandaea

[Max_Killjoy]

<><><>snip<><><><><>

 

Elitist? LOL!

 

I stopped reading right there. I am anything but that. My guildies can attest to it. All are welcome in our guild, all playstyles, preferences, grouping, solo'ing etc. We have new to Ops guild runs just to get people introduced to it if they want to try it with absolutely no pressure or finger pointing. No gear requirements, dps counts or anything at all for that matter. We run content with them to show them and let them earn their rewards. And guess what? They love it. Why? Because it opens up a whole new game for them.

 

Over the last few weeks we have added about 40 new guildies to our roll. Most are returning players that haven't done much if any end game. Most are players that solo'ed the game without trying out the group content. And now they are into it. They realize what some of you don't, that doing things at level with the right support is more rewarding literally and figuratively.

 

Ironically, we now have two new Ops groups. And returning players who are working hard gearing themselves up just to do Ops even though the xpac is just a few weeks away.

 

Come out of your solo silo and take a look around. You will have plenty of solo content soon, but just because something isn't a faceroll solo doesn't mean you are gated from it. It means that you are doing it wrong.

 

Really, we're call very happy for your guild and that you all enjoy the game the game so much.

 

Games are meant to be enjoyed.

 

Why do you want to ruin what some other people enjoy doing in the game? Why do you want to belittle and deny and demean what other people are having fun with in the game? Does their fun hurt your fun? Or are you just concerned that they're having badwrongfun because they're not doing it your way?

[Max_Killjoy]

I don't regret it. I do however regret that I have come across in some of my posts as mean and for that I am truly sorry.

 

Some of the posts were I was compared to a tyrant or that I wanted to enslave people just got to me.

 

I sincerely hope that no one (including myself) has any hard feelings over this thread.

 

 

I find it's best to reserve your efforts for positions you actually support, as opposed to wasting it on "playing devil's advocate".

[robertthebard]

While I'm ok with scaling (as long as we get to keep all abilities learned) I can also see the enticement of the above.

 

You have a hard time soloing something at a lower level, so you gain experience and then complete it with ease the next time you try.

 

Sure, it's easy to attribute that to actual game experience gained to level up...but it also gives the immersion of someone getting better with experience in their own craft...and with this game being Star Wars...if you look at a Force User, the more experienced is almost always better.

 

Running it to get a completion does not equate "challenging" however. If I'd had one more person with their comp in my example, it would have cut the time to complete it in half, and frankly, I've run False Emperor with two people at level, or at levelish, as it were, since we were both 51. That was challenging, which is what I was questioning in my post, the person I quoted stated they come back later for the challenge, and running a locked in 50 FP at 65 isn't challenging by any definition.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

people like you can't seem to understand that not every change is a good one. people like you don't seem to understand that you very rarely get back the customers that you have lost, when you implemented the changes you were warned against.

 

Yet losing you and have more of us veterans actively on the lower levels helping newer players do content they aren't familiar with or just couldn't find groups for encourages them to stay and play as they see a more active and lively community.

 

Greater good, if you don't want to be part of that ... well then bye.

 

 

I know very well the type of game that I'm playing. I'm however NOT happy with developers arbitrarily deciding to change this games type three years into its existence. wait. no. not arbitrarily. because they need to create an illusion of max level content. since they are adding no new one.

 

No new max level content? Pretty sure we ( more so you since your such a proponent of solo play, funnily enough so am I but I'm not greedy here and throwing my toys out of the cot ) get a new expansion that can be run at max level for the majority of it.

 

You should really learn to adapt to change though and see it for the benefits it brings to other. However I am guessing since you come across quite spoiled and greedy that this isn't going to happen and you don't care what benefit this might be for others because you personally are being a little bit put out.

 

I mean the humour in all of this is that I'm not actually advocating they make it mandatory, I want you to run the content in godmode if you choose to do so. I just don't think you should be rewarded for it because there needs to be a carrot to encourage people to do the group content as groups but they still cater to you by letting you run it in godmode if you want.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

no honey. reward is for COMPLETING A TASK.

 

one time it was challenging, but you wait long enough and it becomes less challenging.

 

you completed a task? you EARNED IT.

 

In my opinion you didn't earn it. That's what this is all about of course, our opinions. You felt you earned it I felt you didn't, no changing either of our mind.

 

What ACTUALLY matters is what BW thinks. Based on what can be seen currently they are in agreement with my attitude that if you want to run the godmode content then fine enjoy it. However don't expect to be rewarded for it because they also don't believe you earned it otherwise they wouldn't be putting in this change.

 

and if you think bioware is scaling content up/down becasue they don't think people deserve rewards from it? lol, oh you sweet summer child. they are scaling it up (and/or down) to create illusion of having relevant content to do. since they are adding NO NEW GROUP CONTENT FOR THE NEXT 4 MONTHS AT LEAST. likely more.

 

Right, I forgot you work for Bioware. My mistake.

 

It is likely a 2 pronged attack in that yes, they don't want you getting rewards from it using godmode but they will leave that option there if you insist on doing it. Also you probably correct in having them give people the option of running more challenging content again if they want to hunt the rewards - however they are not forcing people to do this by making it optional.

 

so if everything is done at max level, there is an illusion of end game. and it IS an illusion. it has nothing to do with "earning rewards"

 

If it has nothing to do with earning rewards then how do you even justify the point you just made? It's everything to do with rewards if they only difference between us is me using level sync and doing content then getting a reward and you using godmode and getting no reward.

 

bioware seems to be removing options from people. you want people to earn rewards at max level? ADD NEW REWARDS. leave existing ones alone. let people who are late to the party - have their fun too.

 

Late to what party? New/existing players start toons all the time and work their way through content earning rewards for their accomplishments, time has nothing to do with it.

 

Also how are they removing any options of how you choose to play the game by making this an optional choice? If anything they are adding options. You just can't get past your own greed and give up your little precious shinies you did nothing to earn.

 

Me I can go run some heroics on Korriban and the new players there will have 1 extra person to help them now where as before I wouldn't bother grouping since I could godmode it.

 

This is for the greater good and all that and unfortunately a few of you greedy players can't get over the fact you might be losing your golden goose.

 

but you are so very protective of pixel fluff becasue god forbid someone gets to have something without "suffering for it" or some such nonsense.

 

If playing semi challenging content is such sufferage ( come on, it's hardly difficult ) for you then maybe you should be going to find something else to do. How anyone can find godmoding things "fun" is beyond me but at the least Bioware can stop rewarding them for their mediocrity.

 

people like you make games less fun and result in people leaving for greener pastures.

 

The door is that way, see you around. At least I won't have to put up with one less strawman.

[Max_Killjoy]

Running it to get a completion does not equate "challenging" however. If I'd had one more person with their comp in my example, it would have cut the time to complete it in half, and frankly, I've run False Emperor with two people at level, or at levelish, as it were, since we were both 51. That was challenging, which is what I was questioning in my post, the person I quoted stated they come back later for the challenge, and running a locked in 50 FP at 65 isn't challenging by any definition.

 

 

Why are some players so concerned about whether people find something in the game "challenging", or what they find "challenging"?

 

I'd rather be concerned with whether players are having fun in this game, and how many different options there are for having fun in this game.

 

---- ---- ---- ----

 

On a related note, why are some people so concerned about whether or not someone "earned" something in a game? There are plenty of people who didn't earn what they've got, or don't have what they've earned, in real life -- worry about that, if you're going to spend time worrying about "earned". This is a game, it's supposed to be fun, stop worrying about other people and just concern yourself with the enjoyment of the game.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[VitalityPrime]

Running it to get a completion does not equate "challenging" however. If I'd had one more person with their comp in my example, it would have cut the time to complete it in half, and frankly, I've run False Emperor with two people at level, or at levelish, as it were, since we were both 51. That was challenging, which is what I was questioning in my post, the person I quoted stated they come back later for the challenge, and running a locked in 50 FP at 65 isn't challenging by any definition.

 

I agree that it's not challenging...I guess I'm just stating that I can see arguments for both sides.

 

I'm personally ok with having or not having scaling (assuming that we get to keep learned abilities with scaling).

[MeNaCe-NZ]

was making myself dinner just now and analogy occurred to me.

 

imagine that you have an apple orchard. or at least acess to one and permission to harvest apples from it.

 

but you are too short. can't reach the apples by yourself. you are allowed to do a human pyramid with other people to reach an apple, but then of course you'd have to pull straws to decide which ones of you gets to keep the apple you all have reached. chances are you will never pull the right straw and despite being part of all those human pyramids.. will not get to taste any of the apples.

 

but that's ok, you say to yourself. I can just wait until I can grab a ladder or maybe even wait for that apple to just fall down. it will be a bit bruised and not the freshest by then, but at least I'll finaly get to have it.

 

except. now you are told - nope. not anymore. from now on - no ladders and all apples are wired to the branches so that they never fall. unless you did the human pyramid - you didn't earn that apple. and you MUST earn that apple in a way that we approve to get a chance to eat it. not even guarantee - a chance.

 

I mean... you could just pay other people to do the pyramid for you, that still counts as earning it, apparently even if you yourself didn't do much. but you are not allowed anymore to find a way to get that apple on your own. all apples must be reached by groups of people, not individuals. unless you are lucky enough to have found a group of people willing to repeat the process until every one of you gets an apple of their own, or happen to be a very tall person and if you jump long enough and just right, you might MIGHT reach it on your own without a ladder or other people involved. but if you are average height or short? tough luck. if you have to grab random people to group with for whatever reason? tough luck

 

this is essentially what it comes down to.

 

If you did research and realized that most, if not all, group content is changing to offer guaranteed rewards to all you would see why that "analogy" is rather fail.

[Upirlikhyi]

I find it's best to reserve your efforts for positions you actually support, as opposed to wasting it on "playing devil's advocate".

 

while i respect your thinking here...I find it best to use my efforts on the issues that I think need more discussion on by playing devils advocate.

 

Just as you have repeatedly stated in your posts about people shouldn't push how they play the game and tell you that you shouldn't be allowed to solo. You really need to take that advice and not tell me what I should or shouldn't put my efforts into.

 

Thank you

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Except the rewards aren't worth as much to a level cap player as they are to someone on level anyway. xp is the most obvious example (down to 6xp), but also the loot drops are going to be several ratings worse than the player already has (except possibly relics) and the credits aren't nearly as much as can be gained from drops from a few enemies on Yavin 4.

 

Or, to put it another way, the rewards are of greater value for time spent on that daily on Rishi where you have to come back in 5 minutes (the most faceroll mission ever by the way) than for doing all 4 of the Corascant heroics. That said, I genuinely believe that Rishi mission in over-rewarded, regardless of level, but the same logic applies to any daily from any late game planet.

 

A player doing it on level gets use out of the rewards, while an overlevelled soloer won't. That surely is the important difference. Let Overlevelled soloers get the rewards, at least it covers the repair and travel costs.

 

World Bosses are a difficult issue I suppose due to some of their drops, but my solution would have been to change their respawn time to that of a regular mob rather than stop high level characters from going at them.

 

The rewards seem to be scaling based on your max level. So you get better rewards than the people who are level 10 doing the level 10 heroic. Yes you get scaled back to around say 12 for arguments sake if you CHOOSE to do so however you will get rewards more approriate to your level.

 

That's a fairly nice carrot there.

[VitalityPrime]

I find it's best to reserve your efforts for positions you actually support, as opposed to wasting it on "playing devil's advocate".

 

People who play "devil's advocate" are the people who can actually see the pros and cons for each side...and I find they usually have the best advice/feedback on whatever matter is being discussed/debated.

Edited September 26, 2015 by VitalityPrime

[Max_Killjoy]

while i respect your thinking here...I find it best to use my efforts on the issues that I think need more discussion on by playing devils advocate.

 

Just as you have repeatedly stated in your posts about people shouldn't push how they play the game and tell you that you shouldn't be allowed to solo. You really need to take that advice and not tell me what I should or shouldn't put my efforts into.

 

Thank you

 

That's why I worded my post as I did -- advice based on my own experience -- and not as a directive or imperative.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

"It's an MMO, you have to group!' MMOs are for grouping! You should get no rewards unless you do the content in a group!"

 

OK, jokers -- how about you lose your rewards if you ever do anything or say anything out of character during the Heroic or Flashpoint or Operation. It is, after all, and MMORPG. You better roleplay your character, RPG is right there in the name.

 

 

OK sure, if that's the system. OR I could just go do something else that doesn't require me to roleplay OR I could realise I'm not getting rewarded for not roeplaying something that dictated I needed to and get over it and enjoy the content.

 

Of course your argument is riddiculous because this game DOES have content that requires you to group that can effectively be bypassed, show me the content that requires you to roleplay?

[Max_Killjoy]

People who play "devil's advocate" are the people who can actually see the pros and cons for each side...and I find they usually have the best advice/feedback on whatever matter is being discussed/debated.

 

I find that actually presenting pros and cons shows that you understand the pros and cons.

 

Whereas most people -- present company excepted -- who "play devil's advocate" in these sorts of discussions are looking for an argument for the sake of arguing.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Max_Killjoy]

OK sure, if that's the system. OR I could just go do something else that doesn't require me to roleplay OR I could realise I'm not getting rewarded for not roeplaying something that dictated I needed to and get over it and enjoy the content.

 

Of course your argument is riddiculous because this game DOES have content that requires you to group that can effectively be bypassed, show me the content that requires you to roleplay?

 

One ridiculous argument deserved another.

[Upirlikhyi]

That's why I worded my post as I did -- advice based on my own experience -- and not as a directive or imperative.

 

i can respect that then...

 

i tend Max to have a very very different take on things then most people which is not always the best thing to do.

 

I was hoping this whole thread would not have taken the turn it did and people could have rationally discussed this issue. I admit I let my anger over some of the comments get to me and responded wrong.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Except, again, you're confusing how it is with how you wish it is. The game currently rewards the task, not the challenge. You may want it to be, and it may even become that way but that's not what it is now.

 

Yet if it changes with 4.0 to how it seems it is then that IS how it will be. I mean we are ideally tlaking how it's going to be changed now really how it is now. If nothing was changing we wouldn't be having this argument.

 

"They're not removing options, they're just removing options that I don't like."

 

What's being removed other than "free" loot? You might not think it's free but in the future if this change goes ahead then you might be confusing how it is with how you wish it was.

 

 

Do you understand what game you're playing? A casual MMO that for the past 3.5 years has allowed everyone who overleveled content to fully take part in it regardless of how little challenge it was and still rewarded them completely the same as if they did it in a group at level, in spite of the fact that that isn't "how god intended it".

 

Now that's changing, you lose your reward but can still do the content. Unless you are implying they shouldn't change the game because it's been around 3.5 years and this is how it must remain because this change personally annoys you?

 

I would think then if that's the case you are again confusing how it is with how you wish it is.

[Upirlikhyi]

I find that actually presenting pros and cons show that you understand the pros and cons.

 

Whereas most people -- present company excepted -- who "play devil's advocate" in these sorts of discussions are looking for an argument for the sake of arguing.

 

(not sure if you meant me) but that was never my intentions here. it ended up becoming that as i made the mistake of being called a tyrant and trying to force people into slavery and wanting to kill all solo play personal when i should have kept the topic on form.