Listen to the hardcore players.

[Wiqd]

As a bloke that works from home, has kids at high school and University and a wife that works looong hours (how she enjoys being a nurse i'll never know) so I do spend a hell of a long, loooong, time on my games. I also started gaming when I was 5 in 1984 and started on MMO's the day UO opened it's new and shiny doors. So i'm at the point where I most probably am classed as "hardcore" (although I do hate that label, we're all gamers no one "set" is special we just have more time and/or have been doing it longer).

 

The days of "casual" players looking up in awe at someone with the top tier of gear is long gone.

 

I stopped caring about what other people do in games about the same time I found out what my man tackle was used for. That is when I realised there are more important things to life.

 

Some of those "casuals" and some of the "hardcore" and the many in between have jobs, wives, husbands, partners, kids, bills, pets and more than likely irritating as hell neighbours....

 

The last thing on their minds when they log in to a game they play to relax is ... "oooh I must have that I have to have that gimme gimme gimme".

 

I have no idea where you have this mindset that people actually look up to other players and want to emulate them.

 

I'll grant you there are some but not enough to warrant content being aimed at a small selection of us.

 

I agree with this, but I don't like it. I don't care if people emulate ME at all. I wouldn't care if people crowded around me to see my armor / weapons, etc, just to flex my e-peen. I'm not like that. What I dislike is that NO CHARACTER in ANY of the games out now is a true hero. Everyone is an adventurer. That's what you get when you try to make everyone the hero.

 

Back in the days of EQ, certain characters were heroes. If you were up there killing gods or dragons in the early days, you were a hero because few other people did that or even could do it. The advent of sharing information via internet websites and the dumbing down of content over the years saw to that. It's like the stupid "no kid left behind" crap they do in school. Everyone gets a trophy just for competing!

 

Some people want the world to be alive and want people to recognize that not everyone in the game is equal. Some are better and even if it's not me, I endorse that. It gives people a reason to better their own characters. I think MMORPGs have seriously forgotten the RPG part of the genre these days.

[Radiatonia]

I really appreciate the post, you talk alot fo sense, love the nostalgic trip down UO lane too.

 

However, you do not seem to get my point either, do you respect and wish to emulate the players you play with? Those that do well I mean, achieve a quest reward or title of some sort.

 

If yes then you look up to that player, this player keeps YOU playing, you are not looking up to the TOP 1% but those directly equal to you and maybe a bit above.

 

..but.. In turn they look to other players and other peers, all the way to the top.

 

Now do you see it?

 

I really do not care about other players in the capacity of emulation and respect. I highly doubt many others do either. We're here to play a game. Each at our own pace, and our level of intensity.

 

What I care about is having fun, and relaxing. Life is stressful enough without feeling like there's a stick constantly being jabbed in my back telling me to do better, or achieve some carrot far off in the distance.

 

And what you're saying sounds amazingly like some sort of fun inspired inverted version of a gamers version of trickle down economics. Which is amzingly funny to me, I have to say. Especially since TDE has been proven by many economists to have been a piece of cleverly designed propaganda.

 

 

Like I said. Achievements in any format are what you make of them. Barring civilization hitting a Star Wars inspired singularity event, nothing I do will bleed past the confines this game.

 

Mostly, achievements are good for making you personally feel great when you get one, along with your circle of friends who got it with you. It has no inherent meaning to the greater game world, because:

 

- The nature of a MMO means that if you play long enough, you will eventually luck into getting it.

 

- Achievements are often just a pre-designed measuring stick. Until things like achievements on Xbox Live came along, people measured their character by much less tangible, yet more effective things. See for example, becoming a chef that strikes mortal gastronomical terror into an entire local populace of players, making them seriously say to themselves IRL "Should I really eat that piece of cake on the ground over there?".

 

- Achievements!=Fun. Achievements are, as of today, a benchmark the developers or yourself make to tell you where you are. WoW institutionalized them for that game. And both it and Live made it a sort of treadmill process for a lot of people. It plays on OCD and completionist tendencies.

 

When applied to a MMO format, as Blizzard learned, you can really make it hard for a lot of people to put the game down. It's not at all a good thing, however, as the nature of achievements is the nature of the grind, in a more distilled, yet often subtle form.

 

 

- You find your fun where you want it. Some people want to get cool pixels. Some want to RP. Some want to treat the game as a chat-room. Some want to PVP. Some want to play armchair commander. Some want to hang out at Ilum duking it out in warzones, or pretending they're commanding a walker. You get the idea. You're entirely disregarding the fact that not everyone plays the game like you play it.

 

 

 

PS: A fair number of those "heroes" were either developers or related to the developing company, as it was later found out. To the point where one of the big raiding guilds was lead/co-lead by one of the forum PR people, I think. So in their case, they basically had inside information that made it doable for them. The alternative to that were the people who literally dropped their entire lives into the thing.

 

Which is not healthy, or reasonable to expect of anyone at all. They became note-worthy because they were willing to set aside having a real life, to do the insane grind, and insaner bosses.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Radiatonia

[zuile]

When the shiney is easy to attain it loses it luster.

 

The shiny HAS to be hard to attain, it has to be aimed at the percentage of players that will keep rare. If everyone had a ton of gold in their respective back gardens, gold would would be worthless.

 

Gold is different, you can't compare the two, gold has economic value, shiny BoP items don't.

 

New shinies matter in that they are progression people want them because it means they have progressed, that is the driver in MMOs that's what keeps people staying in game, if people can't progress they leave.

 

Therefore it's impossible for an item to lose it's luster until a better item to replace it comes out, it's not the quantity of an item in game that matters it's whether you the individual player has it. People want things, they don't like not being able to get things and only a small few getting them.

 

Thus you must make raids "easy" for the hardcore, or nerf them so they are hard for the masses but easy for the hardcore shortly after their release to retain the maximum number of players.

[Scan]

Im tired of trying to expain this to you people.

 

I am not talking about everyone looking at the top 1% of the game and drooling, being envious of this guy.

 

You can keep saying I am but im not.

 

Everyone reading this thread plays with other people, their peers or players that are slightly better at this and that, there are some that you look up too, that you wish to emulate that you respect.

 

These people in turn look to other players, other players that you might NOT know but are equals or slightly better players than the player. This goes on all the way UP to the very best players in the world. The top 1%

 

I am saying if you do not aim the hardest endgame content at these players they will move on, out of boredom.

 

To strawman my own argument in an attempt to make people understand, imagine if they aimed the hardest content at the 30% ability player, then all you had to do to attain the highest rewards and the hardest achievements was to almost faceroll it, sure the 30% and below would struggle and find some of the content impossible.

 

BUT...

 

Would you stay? Would you move on to a game that offers more of a challenge?

 

..would the 30% stay?

Edited December 27, 2011 by Scan

[kineticdamage]

Devs, in any game, should always listen hardcore players. It's just simple logic.

They're more dedicated, and know better the game than casual players.

 

It is logical but as you mentionned OP, this is rarely the case, and it is a big mistake.

 

The success of Vanilla WoW was built upon hardcore MMO rules (EQ raids), as a reminder.

As another reminder, 2 of the lead game designers of this same Vanilla WoW were former EQ hardcore raiders.

 

Street Fighter series is the champion of fighting games today because it has listened to its hardcore playerbase over the years, too.

[Scan]

... I'm not like that. What I dislike is that NO CHARACTER in ANY of the games out now is a true hero. Everyone is an adventurer. That's what you get when you try to make everyone the hero..

 

I would say 90% of players in mmo's today are tourists not adventurers.

 

The other reply to my point about gold losing its luster if it's easy to attain totally went over his head, telling me I cant compare the too as they are not worth the same!?

 

The comparrison stands, if something is easy to attain its worthless and means next to nothing.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Scan

[Aesri]

Im tired of trying to expain this to you people.

 

I am not talking about everyone looking at the top 1% of the game and drooling, being envious of this guy.

 

You can keep saying I am but im not.

 

Everyone reading this thread plays with other people, their peers or players that are slightly better at this and that, there are some that you look up too, that you wish to emulate that you respect.

 

These people in turn look to other players, other players that you might NOT know but are equals or slightly better players than the player. This goes on all the way UP to the very best players in the world. The top 1%

 

I am saying if you do not aim the hardest endgame content at these players they will move on, out of boredom.

 

To strawman my own argument in an attempt to make people understand, imagine if they aimed the hardest content at the 30% ability player, then all you had to do to attain the highest rewards and the hardest achievements was to almost faceroll it, sure the 30% and below would struggle and find some of the content impossible.

 

BUT...

 

Would you stay? Would you move on to a game that offers more of a challenge?

 

..would the 30% stay?

 

And here you go making this same bass-ackwards assumptive statement like it's gospel from the very lips of god. AGAIN, for crying out loud. Stop while you're still not over your head. It's sad to watch this kind of self-flagellating verbal seizure.

[Warriorraider]

I was wondering when this thread was going to be made. One answer: NOOOO!! I played AoC and people rushed to get to high lvl for end game content. Um sorry but if you want that go back to WoW. This is story driven and people want to enjoy their games not be ruined by people who only care about gear and end game content. Sorry but no. If they do that, a crap load of people would leave the game. More like 75% of the people. nuf said. Edited December 27, 2011 by Warriorraider

[Scan]

And here you go making this same bass-ackwards assumptive statement like it's gospel from the very lips of god. AGAIN, for crying out loud. Stop while you're still not over your head. It's sad to watch this kind of self-flagellating verbal seizure.

 

If you do not play with people that you respect and wish to emulate then why are you playing at all?

 

You have to be in a minority, if this was the case then the game need not add any challenges at all.

[alkanterah]

Devs, in any game, should always listen hardcore players. It's just simple logic.

They're more dedicated, and know better the game than casual players.

 

It is logical but as you mentionned OP, this is rarely the case, and it is a big mistake.

 

The success of Vanilla WoW was built upon hardcore MMO rules (EQ raids), as a reminder.

As another reminder, 2 of the lead game designers of this same Vanilla WoW were former EQ hardcore raiders.

 

Street Fighter series is the champion of fighting games today because it has listened to its hardcore playerbase over the years, too.

 

In regards to this though it's not really between hardcore's and casual gamers, but people who raid and people who don't raid. To say one knows the game more than the other is a misconception.

 

 

 

If you do not play with people that you respect and wish to emulate then why are you playing at all?

 

I'm sorry but if you could just step back and see what that looks like to someone that's not you.

Edited December 27, 2011 by alkanterah

[Radiatonia]

It's like talking to a brick wall. A brick wall with a megaphone set to loop the same few sentences over and over mounted on it.

 

I give up. I have better things to do with my time then try to explain this.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Radiatonia

[Warriorraider]

Also it is not our fault your guild wants to try to get Server first crap. Sorry but your going to have to live with doing a game that has lvling going slow. Sorry if Bioware caters to you people who kick people out of a guild who misses a raid cause of someone in the hospital, I am so leaving. Bioware wants this to succeed not be ruined.

[Scan]

I was wondering when this thread was going to be made. One answer: NOOOO!! I played AoC and people rushed to get to high lvl for end game content. Um sorry but if you want that go back to WoW. This is story driven and people want to enjoy their games not be ruined by people who only care about gear and end game content. Sorry but no. If they do that, a crap load of people would leave the game. More like 75% of the people. nuf said.

 

*sigh*

 

Im done.

[Gomla]

I agree with this, but I don't like it. I don't care if people emulate ME at all. I wouldn't care if people crowded around me to see my armor / weapons, etc, just to flex my e-peen. I'm not like that. What I dislike is that NO CHARACTER in ANY of the games out now is a true hero. Everyone is an adventurer. That's what you get when you try to make everyone the hero.

 

Back in the days of EQ, certain characters were heroes. If you were up there killing gods or dragons in the early days, you were a hero because few other people did that or even could do it. The advent of sharing information via internet websites and the dumbing down of content over the years saw to that. It's like the stupid "no kid left behind" crap they do in school. Everyone gets a trophy just for competing!

 

Some people want the world to be alive and want people to recognize that not everyone in the game is equal. Some are better and even if it's not me, I endorse that. It gives people a reason to better their own characters. I think MMORPGs have seriously forgotten the RPG part of the genre these days.

 

The problem is nobody looks up to those "heroes" anymore.

 

Think about it this way. When I first started in UO in 1997 I was 18, the shiny impressed me then. I was 20 when EQ came around and it still impressed me enough to forge ahead and go for it.

 

I'm 32 now, I couldn't force myself to care about another persons achievement in a game if I really wanted to.

 

Those same people I was gaming with 14 years ago have now all grown up and while we do still play a lot we lost interest in what other people do. We have our things to worry about.

 

SW:TOR has quite a number of "older" gamers like myself, some older going off a few threads we had during beta. They don't care how "special" someone in a game thinks they are.

 

It's not a case of anyone being put on a pedestal and raised above for the masses to admire, it's a case of even if the pedestal was there the room would be damn near empty as the poser watched tumbleweed float across the room.

 

Even the younger side of the gamer world don't have that same awe we had during the early age of MMO's. They have seen the light at the end of the tunnel and no matter what anyone does now it aint going to impress them one bit.

 

I can agree with providing a "hard mode" to the Flashpoints and Operations to cater to us but loots another matter.

 

No matter which way you look at it no one will be special or admired because hardly anyone cares.

[Scan]

It's like talking to a brick wall. A brick wall with a megaphone set to loop the same few sentences over and over mounted on it.

 

I give up. I have better things to do with my time then try to explain this.

 

You havent explained anything, you fail to even see the point being made.

 

Im done.

[Scan]

Also it is not our fault your guild wants to try to get Server first crap. Sorry but your going to have to live with doing a game that has lvling going slow. Sorry if Bioware caters to you people who kick people out of a guild who misses a raid cause of someone in the hospital, I am so leaving. Bioware wants this to succeed not be ruined.

 

***?!

 

*sigh, im done.

[Radiatonia]

You havent explained anything, you fail to even see the point being made.

 

Im done.

 

I've explained your point, and why it's wrong. You even ignored a massive post I made in favor of cherry-picking other posts. You're either here to troll, or just don't want to risk admitting you're wrong.

 

Either way, this is a silly topic. And i'd rather be playing the game, or at the very least, doing something productive, rather then trying to walk you through the basics of MMO communities.

[Araugon]

You havent explained anything, you fail to even see the point being made.

 

Im done.

 

This is the second time you said you are done. Dont promise what you can't back up.

 

Edit: 3rd time

Edited December 27, 2011 by Araugon

[Scan]

This is the second time you said you are done. Dont promise what you can't back up.

 

Edit: 3rd time

 

Done.

[Warriorraider]

The problem is nobody looks up to those "heroes" anymore.

 

Think about it this way. When I first started in UO in 1997 I was 18, the shiny impressed me then. I was 20 when EQ came around and it still impressed me enough to forge ahead and go for it.

 

I'm 32 now, I couldn't force myself to care about another persons achievement in a game if I really wanted to.

 

Those same people I was gaming with 14 years ago have now all grown up and while we do still play a lot we lost interest in what other people do. We have our things to worry about.

 

SW:TOR has quite a number of "older" gamers like myself, some older going off a few threads we had during beta. They don't care how "special" someone in a game thinks they are.

 

It's not a case of anyone being put on a pedestal and raised above for the masses to admire, it's a case of even if the pedestal was there the room would be damn near empty as the poser watched tumbleweed float across the room.

 

Even the younger side of the gamer world don't have that same awe we had during the early age of MMO's. They have seen the light at the end of the tunnel and no matter what anyone does now it aint going to impress them one bit.

 

I can agree with providing a "hard mode" to the Flashpoints and Operations to cater to us but loots another matter.

 

No matter which way you look at it no one will be special or admired because hardly anyone cares.

 

Well put. People dont care about people bragging anymore. In fact it would the the opposite. It would piss off people cause they want to enjoy a game not feel low or crap cause some other guild thinks they are the best. BOoo HOOOO! Cry me a river. Enough is enough with this bragging and calling people noob crap. I want a community that cares about the game. Not themselves.

[Araugon]

The problem is nobody looks up to those "heroes" anymore.

 

Think about it this way. When I first started in UO in 1997 I was 18, the shiny impressed me then. I was 20 when EQ came around and it still impressed me enough to forge ahead and go for it.

 

I'm 32 now, I couldn't force myself to care about another persons achievement in a game if I really wanted to.

 

Those same people I was gaming with 14 years ago have now all grown up and while we do still play a lot we lost interest in what other people do. We have our things to worry about.

 

SW:TOR has quite a number of "older" gamers like myself, some older going off a few threads we had during beta. They don't care how "special" someone in a game thinks they are.

 

It's not a case of anyone being put on a pedestal and raised above for the masses to admire, it's a case of even if the pedestal was there the room would be damn near empty as the poser watched tumbleweed float across the room.

 

Even the younger side of the gamer world don't have that same awe we had during the early age of MMO's. They have seen the light at the end of the tunnel and no matter what anyone does now it aint going to impress them one bit.

 

I can agree with providing a "hard mode" to the Flashpoints and Operations to cater to us but loots another matter.

 

No matter which way you look at it no one will be special or admired because hardly anyone cares.

 

Its all right here. Nothing more needs to be said. Lock thread please.

[Lethemback]

To add something to what has been said already, in my opinion, people that rushed to level 50 don't know how to play THIS game. No, rushing to end-game and skipping dialogue and quests is not what the devs expect from the majority of the SWTOR's playerbase, nor what that majority is actually doing/going to do, thus they should not listen to everything (they can make valid points too, sometimes, like the rest of the mortals) those players say. Your argument fails from the very start.

 

Cheers.

[zuile]

I would say 90% of players in mmo's today are tourists not adventurers.

 

The other reply to my point about gold losing its luster if it's easy to attain totally went over his head, telling me I cant compare the too as they are not worth the same!?

 

The comparrison stands, if something is easy to attain its worthless and means next to nothing.

 

It didn't go over my head it's just not comparable, gold is worth money, games have money, but BoP epics from raids are worth no money, so not comparable. BoPs are valuable because they are a progression item not because their rare, value in MMOs comes from how much progress it represents to you, a t3 epic is more valuable than a t1 epic not because there are less of them but because it's more powerful.

 

POWER=VALUE NOT RARITY, RARITY=PLAY LONGER FOR POWER(drop based rarity, rarity among the playerbase doesn't matter).

 

You think entirely too much of yourself and your argument.

 

If you think gold and bop epics are comparable, please tell what I can buy with a bop epic?

 

If you do not play with people that you respect and wish to emulate then why are you playing at all?

 

You have to be in a minority, if this was the case then the game need not add any challenges at all.

 

Because it's a game we want to play? This is why you don't get what we're saying to turn things back at you, we don't care about what others are doing but about ourselves, it's not that we're antisocial it's just people care about themselves and their progress not Bob Mcraider.

 

Edit: Lastly if apparently near no one but those who agree with you "get" your argument, perhaps you're just wrong? Seems the most likely explanation, considering you're very much outnumbered. Or you're really really really terrible at explaining things.

Edited December 27, 2011 by zuile

[NoxiousAlby]

It is obvious that the devs of this game and any MMO need to listen to the hardcore players.

 

Too those players already 50 and beginning some of the endgame.

 

These players win the loot and achieve the goals that the casual, poor and part-time (these are not the same player) players drive to emulate, they ride mounts and hold titles that pull the masses on to play the game.

 

Now you are going to see ALOT of responses from players saying they DONT want this, that they dont look to players that play insanely long periods, or succeed with less time played. They will say that the game does NOT need these players.

 

They are flat out wrong

 

Without the hardcore, uber players staying here neither will the casuals and masses. They say they will but if there are no top end players playing SW:TOR then it will become a bit of a joke in the mmo world.

 

Please I beg you BW, listen to those players that are already 50, already beginning endgame operations, these people KNOW what makes an MMO succeed and what will keep them playing.

 

Ultimately KEEP THE HARDCORE/Elite PLAYING = Keeping the masses playing.

 

*edit below..

 

No, I do think we are social animals though, that like it or not we do look up to those we play with, and ultimately those we play with look up to other people they know or play with.

 

My point is if you do not keep the very highest achievers interested in the game then they will move on, the effect of keeping these people interested is keeping all those that play down the chain interested.

 

Those saying "I only care what my friends do... etc" are only reinforcing my point, without knowing it.

 

The bottom 1% "look up" to the 2% the 2% aspires to achieve the 3%'s loot and success, it is a chain effect all the way to the top.

 

There is a chain, an unbroken link to the very highest achievers in game.

 

Hardcore players are the least of Biowares concerns, if you already capped 50 then you skipped most of the material (cut scenes) in the game.

 

So what do we know as facts:

- Hardcore players consume content at a rate 5 times faster than other players

- More content needs to be created/added just to support 3% of the playerbase

- Listening to Hardcore players cost Blizz over 1.5 million subscriptions, with Cata being dumbed down to a point to appease their remaining players.

 

So what lessons have we learned over the years:

- Never consume the bulk of resources to appease only 3% of the playerbase or you lockout the greater percentage of players from your game

- Content can never be produced fast enough for hardcore players

- Hardcore players are a minority

 

Seriously though, you think people will admire your gear? Most grown adults I know couldnt care less how others look and we certainly do aspire to become under achievers in life just to say i'm a special snowflake.

 

Also to contradict you, without hardcore players consuming the bulk of resources this game would more than survive it would thrive. So in a nut shell "WE dont need you."

Edited December 27, 2011 by NoxiousAlby

[Wolfeisberg]

I never aspired to be like or have what the Hardcore have, and I don't know anybody out of high school who does either. In all my years of playing MMOs, it was always the high school kids, or the no-life people who aspired to be like the hardcores.