Endurance v. Willpower (Shadow Tanking)

[Arbegla]

I edited my post too late, please refer to my previous post.

 

Same healer either way. Same amount of healing, same time taken. If anything, Tank 2 needs to heal 1 hit LESS then tank 1. There isn't a different healer either way.

 

The healer is healing the same amount regardless. I'm not seeing how you can mention a second healer, when the only thing that changes is the tanks in question. Everything else is constant.

 

After the 14th hit, tank 1 has had 5 heals, tank 2 has only had 4 heals. It isn't until the 15th hit that tank 2 gets his 5th heal. So either way, if you have the same healer on both tanks, after 14 hits, the healer would have had to heal tank 1 5 times, and tank 2 4 times. Tank 2 doesn't need his 5th heal until the 15th hit.

 

Then, both tanks get restored to full (via a crit heal, or self healing, or what have you) and now, tank 1 needs a heal after 4 hits, and tank 2 doesn't need a heal until 5 hits have passed. Giving the healer more time to react each cycle that the tank is restored to 100% health.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Arbegla

[Dracyula]

Same healer either way. Same amount of healing, same time taken. If anything, Tank 2 needs to heal 1 hit LESS then tank 1. There isn't a different healer either way.

 

The healer is healing the same amount regardless. I'm not seeing how you can mention a second healer, when the only thing that changes is the tanks in question. Everything else is constant.

 

After the 14th hit, tank 1 has had 5 heals, tank 2 has only had 4 heals. It isn't until the 15th hit that tank 2 gets his 5th heal. So either way, if you have the same healer on both tanks, after 14 hits, the healer would have had to heal tank 1 5 times, and tank 2 4 times. Tank 2 doesn't need his 5th heal until the 15th hit.

 

Then, both tanks get restored to full (via a crit heal, or self healing, or what have you) and now, tank 1 needs a heal after 4 hits, and tank 2 doesn't need a heal until 5 hits have passed. Giving the healer more time to react each cycle that the tank is restored to 100% health.

 

I didn't mean a second healer, by healer 1/2 I meant; when healing tank 1 vs when healing tank 2.

 

The reason you are confused is because you stopped the sequence. It ends with tank 2 being healed, this negates the extra time provided at the beginning of the fight.

 

If the fight did end right after hit 15, tank 2 would provide extra time for the healer, but this is only applied once.

 

If you continue your scenario for more hits you will see what I mean (Im not asking you to post it, but you should check it out).

 

D

[Arbegla]

I didn't mean a second healer, by healer 1/2 I meant; when healing tank 1 vs when healing tank 2.

 

The reason you are confused is because you stopped the sequence. It ends with tank 2 being healed, this negates the extra time provided at the beginning of the fight.

 

If the fight did end right after hit 15, tank 2 would provide extra time for the healer, but this is only applied once.

 

If you continue your scenario for more hits you will see what I mean (Im not asking you to post it, but you should check it out).

 

D

 

It doesn't matter how long the scenario lasts for, once the tanks are restored to 100% health, it starts at the beginning. The hits aren't getting harder, the healers aren't getting bigger, the tanks just have 100% health to start off with again. Extending the scenario does nothing but show you that each tank needs to be healed (after the initial 'burst' of hit points are expended) every 2 to 3 hits, or else they will die.

 

That is what I'm getting at. There will be times where your tank will be restored to 100% health, via a critical heal that was unexpected, or self healing via Tk throw, or BR, or even CT critting (which is possible, I've seen it) and once your tanks are restored to 100% health, the cycle repeats itself over again. Tank 2 will always be able to take 1 more hit then tank 1 before needing a heal, due to that initial 'burst' of hit points they had at the beginning. If you can refresh that 'burst' of hit points, then you can take advantage of that extra hit each cycle that you refresh the 'burst' to.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Arbegla

[Dracyula]

It doesn't matter how long the scenario lasts for, once the tanks are restored to 100% health, it starts at the beginning. The hits aren't getting harder, the healers aren't getting bigger, the tanks just have 100% health to start off with again. Extending the scenario does nothing but show you that each tank needs to be healed (after the initial 'burst' of hit points are expended) every 2 to 3 hits, or else they will die.

 

That is what I'm getting at. There will be times where your tank will be restored to 100% health, via a critical heal that was unexpected, or self healing via Tk throw, or BR, or even CT critting (which is possible, I've seen it) and once your tanks are restored to 100% health, the cycle repeats itself over again. Tank 2 will always be able to take 1 more hit then tank 1 before needing a heal, due to that initial 'burst' of hit points they had at the beginning. If you can refresh that 'burst' of hit points, then you can take advantage of that extra hit each cycle that you refresh the 'burst' to.

 

I tried to explain as much as I can. Simply put, the extra time provided at the beginning of the fight is negated by the heal after hit 15.

 

To be even more clear, no matter how long your sequence is the healers will need to throw the exact same amount of heals (give or take 1).

 

Over 60 hits, both tanks would require 20 heals. If the healers spend the same amount of time healing, how does one of them magically end up with more time?

 

I have given it my best to help you understand. Unfortunately I am going to accept failure at this point.

 

D

[Kitru]

I have given it my best to help you understand. Unfortunately I am going to accept failure at this point.

 

Welcome to my world. He really is just incapable of understanding some *very* basic concepts even when you repeatedly try to explain them to him in a multitude of different ways.

[Arbegla]

I tried to explain as much as I can. Simply put, the extra time provided at the beginning of the fight is negated by the heal after hit 15.

 

To be even more clear, no matter how long your sequence is the healers will need to throw the exact same amount of heals (give or take 1).

 

Over 60 hits, both tanks would require 20 heals. If the healers spend the same amount of time healing, how does one of them magically end up with more time?

 

I have given it my best to help you understand. Unfortunately I am going to accept failure at this point.

 

D

 

Because the cycle repeats on the tank is set at 100% hit points. Which you seem to fail to understand. You keep saying that the extra time would only account once through out a fight. Yes both tanks may need 20 heals, but the tank with more hit points would need healing LESS often, because of the fact he can TAKE more hits.

 

It doesn't matter how many hits you take, the cycle repeats ANY TIME the tanks are restored to 100% hit points. Why aren't you understanding that. The clock resets, you end up being able to take advantage of the additional time, and are able to do other things besides just spam heals on the tanks.

 

Its literally this simple

Time until death               10    12    
1st hit                               8    10    
2nd hit                              6    8    
3rd hit                              4    6    
4th hit                               2    4    
1st heal on 1st tank            7    4    1st heal on 1st tank, after 4 hits
5th hit                                5    2    
1st heal on 2nd tank           5    7    1st heal on 2nd tank after 5 hits

 

If you can repeat that same situation, then you can put off healing the second tank LONGER and thus have more time to do other things, every single time the second tank is put at 100% hit points. It isn't rocket science, its not hard to grasp. The clock resets anytime the tanks are up at full hit points. And even Kitru agrees that tanks will be at 100% hit points A LOT throughout encounters. Thus it allows you to take advantage of the increased time frame A LOT throughout a fight.

 

A tank with a 12 second time until death only has to be healed after the first 5 hits, until they are basically taking as much damage as your heals keep up with (i/e the 2 or 3 hits pattern you can clearly see) where a tank with 10 second time until death needs to start that same pattern the first 4 hits. Once you restore the tanks back to 100%, then you reset it back to only needing 4 or 5 hits (10 or 12 seconds respectively)

 

Pushing the scenario further doesn't matter when it can literally repeat itself every single time.

 

Say you can restore the tank to 100% health every 14 hits (due to self healing, and critical heals) this means that tank 1 needs 5 heals to stay alive, each cycle, and tank 2 needs 4 heals to stay alive each cycle. If you repeat the cycle 20 times throughout the fight (i/e, after about 14 hits both tanks get to 100% health) then that means tank 2 gets healed 20 times LESS then tank 1. If you reset it at 5 hits (i/e your healers critical chance is high enough to critical heal every time) then tank 1 gets healed 20 times MORE then tank 2. Reset it at 10 hits, and tank 1 needs 3 heals, tank 2 needs 2. 15 hits, same deal. As long as its before the 16th hit lands (putting tank 2 at 0 hit points) then tank 2 will always be healed for LESS then tank 1, thus giving the healer more time to do other things, each time the tank is restored to 100% health.

 

Its a repeating cycle. Its not continuous, it doesn't go on and on and on forever, it literally repeats anytime the tanks are restored to 100%. And depending on when that happens, depends on how many heals you need per tank, but tank 2 will always be healed LESS then tank 1, due to that fact they can take more of a hit, and as long as the healer is able to keep them ALIVE (not necessarily at 100%, just above 0%) then tank 2 is getting healed less often then tank 1.

[Arbegla]

Welcome to my world. He really is just incapable of understanding some *very* basic concepts even when you repeatedly try to explain them to him in a multitude of different ways.

 

You've yet to really prove anything to me Kitru, you took my explanation and just put me on ignore over it, instead of trying to actually debate what i was saying.

 

I do notice however, that you changed both your time assumption math (on the sith warrior forums) and your estimations of animation times, to better reflect in game values. So obviously you weren't as right as you thought you were, and it wasn't until I pointed it out that you finally decided it was a good time to change it.

[Dracyula]

Snip

 

The only time you would be correct is if the unexpected heal results in over healing for tank 1 but not tank 2.

 

Please, do yourself a favor and extend your sequence. No matter how long the sequence goes, or how many times the tanks reach 100% hp, both healers will ALWAYS have the same number of hits between heals, resulting in the same amount of time to DPS when they aren't healing.

 

That is all.

 

D

[Dulwaithe]

This thread was so promising.

 

Anyway, as a long time endgame healer and on-the-side tank, it's pretty clear to me that know competent healer would let a tank sit under their maximum health in any sort of mildly challenging content, whether that tank has a billion hitpoints or a couple thousand.

 

Once you're not using endurance, it's useless and you could stack ANYTHING and be more useful (alacrity for faster TK throws, lol?). Of course, stacking actually tanking stats is best, but if that's not an option, no reason no to take the willpower option.

[Arbegla]

This thread was so promising.

 

Anyway, as a long time endgame healer and on-the-side tank, it's pretty clear to me that know competent healer would let a tank sit under their maximum health in any sort of mildly challenging content, whether that tank has a billion hitpoints or a couple thousand.

 

Once you're not using endurance, it's useless and you could stack ANYTHING and be more useful (alacrity for faster TK throws, lol?). Of course, stacking actually tanking stats is best, but if that's not an option, no reason no to take the willpower option.

 

The reason you want to let a Shadow tank sit at below his max hit points, is due to self healing being a good amount of their mitigation. If you're constantly keeping the tank at 100% hit point, then you will be negating the proc from Combat Technique, negating Battle Readiness boost to CT, as well as the burst heal, and negating TK Throw's healing aspect as well.

 

Shadow tanks are not the type of tanks that you want to constantly keep at 100%, as that would just be wasting resources the healer could be using on other things. Now I'm not saying keep a shadow tank at 10% health, so a lucky crit will kill them, but that you shouldn't keep them at 100%. Maybe something between 70-80% would be best, that way there isn't as much over healing done.

 

The only time you would be correct is if the unexpected heal results in over healing for tank 1 but not tank 2.

 

It's like you're completely ignore the first half of the sequence, where tank 2 doesn't need a heal (as in, before they die) until 5 hits have passed, yet tank 1 needs a heal after 4 hits. So any time both tanks are restored to full health (via self healing, or critical healing, or really anything) you get to repeat waiting for 5 hits on tank 2, and waiting for 4 hits on tank 1.

Please, do yourself a favor and extend your sequence. No matter how long the sequence goes, or how many times the tanks reach 100% hp, both healers will ALWAYS have the same number of hits between heals, resulting in the same amount of time to DPS when they aren't healing.

 

That is all.

 

D

 

Extending the sequence doesn't matter D, that why I pushed it as far as 15 hits. The only thing that really matters is refreshing that 'burst' amount of hit points at the beginning. Once you use that up, then the sequence just shows that both tanks will need a heal 2 - 3 hits after the previous hit (i/e, tank 1 needs a heal after hit 4, then after hit 7, then after hit 9, then 12, then 14, and tank 2 would need a heal after hit 5, then after hit 8, then after hit 10, then 13, then 15, etc)

 

As tank 2 can initially take 1 additional hit then tank 1, before needing that initial heal, that allows the healer to pay less attention to tank 2 then tank 1. Any time you restore BOTH tanks to 100%, you can then take advantage of that extra 'hit' time frame because you've basically reset the cycle. And depending on how many times you've reset the cycle, depends on how many 'extra hits' tank 2 would be able to take. Reset the cycle 20 times, and tank 2 can take 20 more hits then tank 1 before needing that initial heal, reset it 5 times, and its 5 more hits.

 

If you look at it as a non-continuous cycle, then you would be correct, but as it is designed to be repeatable, you can take advantage of the initial burst of hit points each time the tanks are restored to 100% hit points by any means, even if that isn't due to the healer at all.

[Dracyula]

As tank 2 can initially take 1 additional hit then tank 1, before needing that initial heal, that allows the healer to pay less attention to tank 2 then tank 1. Any time you restore BOTH tanks to 100%, you can then take advantage of that extra 'hit' time frame because you've basically reset the cycle. And depending on how many times you've reset the cycle, depends on how many 'extra hits' tank 2 would be able to take. Reset the cycle 20 times, and tank 2 can take 20 more hits then tank 1 before needing that initial heal, reset it 5 times, and its 5 more hits.

 

If you look at it as a non-continuous cycle, then you would be correct, but as it is designed to be repeatable, you can take advantage of the initial burst of hit points each time the tanks are restored to 100% hit points by any means, even if that isn't due to the healer at all.

 

You went to 15 hits so you could get to a point where both tanks are at 100%. Your thought process is getting mixed up here, as part of your brain is under the impression that the fight is over, negating the fact that the healer healing tank 1 has been able to "do something else" for the last part of the sequence when the healer healing tank 2 had to spend his time healing.

 

I wanted you to continue the sequence to demonstrate that the healer cannot take advantage of the initial burst more than once, even after they reach 100% hp.

 

Please continue the sequence to 20 hits (or 25, or 30, or how many you wish), and show me where tank 2 provides extra time beyond the initial burst.

 

D

[Arbegla]

You went to 15 hits so you could get to a point where both tanks are at 100%. Your thought process is getting mixed up here, as part of your brain is under the impression that the fight is over, negating the fact that the healer healing tank 1 has been able to "do something else" for the last part of the sequence when the healer healing tank 2 had to spend his time healing.

 

I wanted you to continue the sequence to demonstrate that the healer cannot take advantage of the initial burst more than once, even after they reach 100% hp.

 

Please continue the sequence to 20 hits (or 25, or 30, or how many you wish), and show me where tank 2 provides extra time beyond the initial burst.

 

D

 

If the tanks are restored to 100% health, via a critical heal, or self healing, then you get back the initial burst of hit points, allowing the healer to take advantage of it each time. If you actually look at the sequence, the 6th heal (i/e, after 15 hits) was just to show that after you get to 100% health, you get that boost again. And thus repeat the cycle.

 

If you'd like, I can show a sequence, where the tank would be restored to 100% on the 3rd heal (via a critical heal, or self healing power) and better show what I'm talking about.

 

This is assuming a critical heal would heal double what a normal heal would, for just the sake of easier math. The critical heal could be a combination of a normal heal, and a self healing power going off at the same time, or any number of things that would restore a tank to full health throughout an encounter.

 

Time until death	10	12	
1st hit	8	10	
2nd hit	6	8	
3rd hit	4	6	
4th hit	2	4	
1st heal on 1st tank	7	4	1st heal on 1st tank, after 4 hits
5th hit	5	2	
1st heal on 2nd tank	5	7	1st heal on 2nd tank after 5 hits
6th hit	3	5	
7th hit	1	3	
2nd heal on 1st tank	6	3	2nd heal on 1st tank after 3 more hits
8th hit	4	1	
2nd heal on 2nd tank	4	6	2nd heal on 2nd tank after 3 more hits
9th hit	2	4	
3rd heal Crits on 1st tank	10	4	3rd heal on 1st tank after 2 more hits
10th hit	8	2	
3rd heal Crits on 2nd tank	8	12	3rd heal on 2nd tank after 2 more hit
11th hit     6      10
12th hit     4       8
13th hit     2       6
4th heal on 1st tank   7    6      4th heal on 1st tank after 4 more hits (from previous heal)
14th hit     5       4
15th hit     3       2
4th heal on 2nd tank  3    7      4th heal on 2nd tank after 5 more hits (from previous heal)
16th hit     1       5
5th heal on 1st tank   6    5      5th heal on 1st tank after 3 more hits (from previous heal)
17th hit     4       3
18th hit     2       1
5th heal on 2nd tank, 6th heal Crits on 1st tank   10    6  5th heal on 2nd tank after 3 more hits (from previous heal) 6th heal on 1st tank after 2 more hits (from previous heal)
19th hit    8       4
20th hit    6       2
6th heal Crits on 2nd tank   6    12  6th heal on 2nd tank after 2 more hits (from previous heal)
21st hit    4      10
22nd hit   2       8
7th heal on 1st tank   7     8   7th heal on 1st tank after 4 more hits (from previous heal)
23rd hit   5       6
24th hit   3       4
25th hit   1       2
7th heal on 2nd tank, 8th heal on 1st tank    6    7  7th heal on 2nd tank after 5 more hits (from previous heal), 8th heal on 1st tank after 3 more hits (from previous heal)
26th hit   4      5
27th hit   2      3
9th heal on 1st tank   7     3  9th heal on 1st tank after 2 more hits (from previous heal)
28th hit   5      1
8th heal on 2nd tank  5     6   8th heal on 2nd tank after 3 more hits (from previous heal)

 

Does that better show you that once you are restored to full health (in this example, from a critical heal) that you can then take advantage of the extra time again, as you basically restored that 'initial burst' of health back. And that tank 2 will be healed 1 less then tank 1? Because of the ability to soak that extra hit, and the healing stays constant, tank 2 needs less healing overall. After 28 hits, tank 1 needs 9 heals to stay alive, tank 2 needs 8 heals.

 

Pushing it further, you can see how the cycle works. 4 hits tank 1 needs a heal, 3 more hits, tank 1 needs another heal, 2 more hits, tank 1 needs another heal, then 3, then 2, until a crit, where its back to 4, 3, 2, 3, 2. Tank 2 needs his first heal after 5 hits, then 3, then 2, until a crit, where its back to 5, 3, 2, 3, 2. Every cycle, Tank 2 take take 1 more hit then tank 1, giving the healer that is healing tank 2 more time to do other things once tank 2 is restored to full health.

[Dracyula]

Snip

 

Your crits are over healing the first tank but not the second tank. As I said previously, this will create extra time.

 

This is why using a heal that crits for tank 1's entire health bar is a problem.

 

Please provide an example where over healing is not present.

 

EDIT: Disregard the edit.

 

D

Edited January 29, 2012 by Dracyula

[gunslinger]

Health does not directly contribute to your survivability within Flashpoints or Operations. While solo, it has some utility if you are not at a point where the use of your own abilities and a healer companion allow you to overcome any incoming damage, even from champions.

 

Stacking Endurance is not an appreciable expenditure of gearing largely because its only contribution to tank survivability is to increase the amount of damage you can take without receiving any heals before you die. Since default hp is so high compared to incoming damage, stacking additional endurance has little to no comparative contribution to your survivability in legitimate tanking situations. Willpower, on the other hand, increases your damage output (which is *excellent* even when compared to pure DPS) and threat, making your allies less likely to die and allowing them to DPS harder without risk of pulling off of you.

 

As a tank, you should prioritize as follows: (Defense>Shield>Absorb)>Willpower>Endurance. Endurance just doesn't do enough to make it worthwhile to stack to any appreciable extent.

 

 

tagged and quoted again so I can find it quickly

[Arbegla]

Your crits are over healing the first tank but not the second tank. As I said previously, this will create extra time.

 

This is why using a heal that crits for tank 1's entire health bar is a problem.

 

Please provide an example where over healing is not present.

 

EDIT: Disregard the edit.

 

D

 

That is my point exactly D. Over healing is going to happen, be it from critical healing (from the healer) or self healing (from the tank). And when that happens, tank 2 is better off then tank 1. In order for tank 1 to not get over healed, when tank 2 would get topped off, with the fact they have different hit points values, you would need tank 1 to have the same TtD as tank 2.

 

And in order for that to happen, Tank 1 would have to have the same hit points as tank 2.

 

If you reduce the healing, and say the healer only heals 3 seconds back (slightly above incoming damage) and then crits for 5 seconds (little over 150%) you still see the same pattern.

 

Time until Death	10	12	
1st hit	8	10	
2nd hit	6	8	
3rd hit	4	6	
4th hit	2	4	
1st heal on 1st tank	5	4	1st heal on 1st tank after 4 hits
5th hit	3	2	
1st heal on 2nd tank	3	5	1st heal on 2nd tank after 5 hits
6th hit	1	3	
2nd heal on 1st tank	4	3	2nd heal on 1st tank after 2 more hits
7th hit	2	1	
3rd heal Crits on 1st tank, 2nd heal on 2nd tank	7	4	2nd heal on 2nd tank after 2 more hits, 3rd heal on 1st tank after 1 more hit
8th hit	5	2	
3rd heal crits on 2nd tank	5	3rd heal on 2nd tank after 1 more hit
9th hit	3	5	
10th hit	1	3	
4th heal on 1st tank	4	3	4th heal on 1st tank after 3 more hits
11th hit	2	1	
5th heal on 1st tank, 4th heal on 2nd tank	5	4	5th heal on 1st tank after 1 more hit, 4th heal on 2nd tank after 3 more hits
12th hit	3	2	
5th heal on 2nd tank	3	5	5th heal on 2nd tank after 1 more hit
13th hit	1	3	
6th heal crits on 1st tank	6	3 6th heal on 1st tank after 2 more hits
14th hit	4	1	
6th heal crits on 2nd tank	4	6 6th heal on 2nd tank after 2 more hits
15th hit	2	4	
7th heal on 1st tank	5	4	7th heal on 1st tank after 2 more hits
16th hit	3	2	
7th heal on 2nd tank	3	5	7th heal on 2nd tank after 2 more hits
17th hit	1	3	
8th heal on 1st tank	4	3	8th heal on 1st tank after 2 more hits
18th hit	2	1	
8th heal on 2nd tank, 9th heal crits on 1st tank	7	4	8th heal on 2nd tank after 2 more hits, 9th heal on 1st tank after 1 more hit
19th hit	5	2	
9th heal crits on 2nd tank	5	7 9th heal on 2nd tank after 1 more hit

 

Tank 1 is 1 heal ahead of tank 2. Then when you put them both at 100%, (via over healing, from self healing, or an extra heal) and you have this:

 

Both tanks are restored to full, via self healing, or over healing	10	12	Cycle repeats from beginning.

 

As the 'critical' healing isn't enough to put either tank at 100%, the only benefit you would get is from the initial burst. That would be true, if both tanks NEVER hit 100% again. My point, is that over healing happens, especially with a combination of healer 'healing' and self 'healing' there will be plenty of times where the tank is restored to 100% health, and whenever that happens, you get to see the benefit of the additional time.

 

I think your point is that over healing doesn't, or shouldn't happen often enough to be considered, but that isn't how healing works. If you start healing your tank at 90% health (say 18,000 hit points) and your heal normally heals 2.5k, if your tank takes no more damage, you've over healed them by 500 points. If you critical heal, your healing for 3,750 base (150%) so if your tank hasn't taken 1750 damage between you beginning casting your heal, and your heal landing (depending on cast times, this could be less then 1.5 seconds, to as much as 2.5 seconds) then you've over healed them, and your tank is at 100%.

 

The only way you wouldn't gain the benefit of the initial burst is if your tanks are never set to 100% health. Which I will agree with you, but tanks will be restored to 100% health, over healing does happen, and this lets you repeatedly take advantage of that extra time.

 

As my sequence shows that restores both tanks to 100%.

[Dracyula]

I think your point is that over healing doesn't, or shouldn't happen often enough to be considered, but that isn't how healing works.

 

Somewhat. My point is that BOTH tanks will have over healing. The tank with more HP may have slightly less over healing than the tank with fewer HP.

 

The only time that a tank with more HP will increase time for the healer is when there is a crit heal that is wasted on one tank but not the other. This will happen so rarely that it is almost not worth mentioning when talking about adding time for the healer to dps.

 

You were leading people to believe that ALL of the healers dps is attributed to adding 200 END, when they would have almost identical DPS whether you add the End or not.

 

When you make statements that suggest that adding END will equate to more dps from the healer than adding WIL will add to the tank, I feel obliged to point out how grossly incorrect this is.

 

D

[Arbegla]

Somewhat. My point is that BOTH tanks will have over healing. The tank with more HP may have slightly less over healing than the tank with fewer HP.

 

The only time that a tank with more HP will increase time for the healer is when there is a crit heal that is wasted on one tank but not the other. This will happen so rarely that it is almost not worth mentioning when talking about adding time for the healer to dps.

 

You were leading people to believe that ALL of the healers dps is attributed to adding 200 END, when they would have almost identical DPS whether you add the End or not.

 

When you make statements that suggest that adding END will equate to more dps from the healer than adding WIL will add to the tank, I feel obliged to point out how grossly incorrect this is.

 

D

 

My main point was that if adding endurance allowed your healer to contribute ANY additional DPS at all, then that DPS has to be considered when comparing endurnace to willpower. Especially when Willpower adds DPS to the tank. That way you can see everything the endurance would provide. Endurance would provide additional DPS (via the healer getting time to DPS) additional hit points (obvious enough) and additional mitigation (via increasing self healing). Willpwer would provide additional DPS (via boosting your bonus damage) additional critical chance (via boosting your crit rating) and additional mitigation (via decreasing the duration of the fight)

 

If both tanks are being healed the same amount, then when both tanks get put to full, from any source, you would then repeat the cycle. Which would then take advantage of the burst 'initial' hit points any time you restore the tank to full. If your healing both tanks just before they die, and then manage to heal them both up to full (via a critical heal) then the tank with less hit points will then be over healed, and the tank with more hit points would be able to take advantage full advantage of the heal, and not be over healed as much. Either way, both tanks are restored to 100%, refreshing both their time until death clocks, and allowing you to use the full amount of that time again.

 

If neither tank is restored to 100%, and both are basically just healed enough to stay alive (as shown by the 2 then 3 hit sequence) then you would be correct, that additional time is only avaiable intially, and won't ever be available again. But that would only be correct if there was NEVER a time throughout ANY encounter where both tanks would be restored to 100% health.

 

As the main goal of most healers is to keep the tank as close to full as possible (or at least full enough to not get 1 shot by a boss) then you can savely assume that your tanks will be restored to 100% sometime throughout any encounter, and thus their time until death clock is reset, giving the healer the full advantage of that additional time. Even if you heal both tanks at 80% heal (8 seconds for the 1st tank, 9.6 seconds for the second) as a means to limit over healing from the healer, the tank themselves have self healing abilities, which could cause them to be restored to 100%, or for all intents and purposes, 80% is 100%, and anything over that is over healing. So anytime the tank is over 80% health, the healer isn't healing them, and the longer the tank is above 80% health, the more time the healer has to DPS.

 

Its not that difficult to figure out. As a healer, you don't want to overheal, but you want to keep your tank alive. Healing a Shadow tank means that you don't want to keep them at 100% health all the time, as they self heal quite a bit, and you would be wasting your resources on something they can already do. 80%, assuming the tank would still be ok and not 1 shot by the boss, seems like a good number to aim for, and any time your tank is above 80%, your not healing them.

 

Your only healing when they drop below 80%. So anytime your tank is between 100% and 80% health, you can DPS. If your heals put them above 80%, then you focus on DPSing until they drop to below 80%. If they can keep themselves above 80% health (via self healing, or defensive cool downs) then you just keep DPSing until they drop below 80%.

[mitey]

Note: I'm no expert at this stuff, I'm only trying to follow the logic behind all of this.

 

I want to go back to another point that seemed to be passed over.

 

* Even if the dps tradeoff between tank/healer is a wash, if I increase my threat ceiling, then the dps don't have to hold back as much, and in my experience dps players are capable of pulling aggro from the tank. Increasing the tank's dps increases the dpsers' maximum 'safe' output by a multiple of the tank's dps, which is further multiplied by the number of dpsers in the group, whereas increasing the healer's dps output by the same amount does not.

 

3) This is what I want to question the most. Why is your DPS holding back to begin with? All of the ranged DPS classes have abilities that reduce their threat by up to 50% every 2 minutes. And ranged DPS needs to overcome your threat by 130%. When you account for the base 50% modifier, which means in order for a ranged DPS to pull threat off you, they need to do 180% MORE damage then your doing (50% via stance, 30% threat threshold). Melee DPS, while they may not have the same threat reduction abilities, still have to overcome your threat by 110% in order to pull it off you. Accounting for the base 50% threat modifier, this means that ranged DPS needs to do about 160% MORE damage then the tank in order to pull it off. Now I do understand that some bosses shed threat easily due to mechanics, but that is exactly what taunt is for.

 

I'm not saying threat isn't an issue, but if your DPS aren't pushing as hard as they could to begin with, that might be the root of the issue with hitting enrage timers, which adding more willpower to the tank wouldn't be able to make up.

 

I'm a bit confused by why you would question this. Could be my lack of knowledge here.

 

Even with having abilities to wipe your threat, it still has to be watched(at least historically in WoW I believe, which is why the ability needs to be used often). I would think it WOULD be possible for the DPS to do that much damage. Unless...the tank has moderate DPS as well.

 

If it is true that the DPS can't do that much, fine. I digress. But if the DPS can do the amount of damage necessary to overcome the tanks threat(in between CDs of the threat wipe abilities), then the DPS do indeed need to hold back. If having the tank gain DPS allows the DPS classes to hold back less, then this would hands down be greater than any DPS a healer would do during 100% tank health crit heals.

 

Another note. I know you don't like assuming everyone will play perfectly all the time, Arbegla. DPS classes like to...DPS. Alot. And there are many people that like to not pay attention to threat (GOTTA DO THE MOST DAMAGE BRO, epeen...etc). So, I don't see why you make the argument that healers aren't perfect all the time so extra HP padding is necessary, but yet ignore the same argument about threat.

 

Maybe it's my lack of knowledge about the current high end content, as I don't have actual experience with it (I just recently hit 50 and haven't had time lately to play much). So you're more than welcome to clear this up for me. Or anyone else for that matter.

[Arbegla]

Note: I'm no expert at this stuff, I'm only trying to follow the logic behind all of this.

 

I want to go back to another point that seemed to be passed over.

 

I'm a bit confused by why you would question this. Could be my lack of knowledge here.

 

Even with having abilities to wipe your threat, it still has to be watched(at least historically in WoW I believe, which is why the ability needs to be used often). I would think it WOULD be possible for the DPS to do that much damage. Unless...the tank has moderate DPS as well.

 

If it is true that the DPS can't do that much, fine. I digress. But if the DPS can do the amount of damage necessary to overcome the tanks threat(in between CDs of the threat wipe abilities), then the DPS do indeed need to hold back. If having the tank gain DPS allows the DPS classes to hold back less, then this would hands down be greater than any DPS a healer would do during 100% tank health crit heals.

 

Another note. I know you don't like assuming everyone will play perfectly all the time, Arbegla. DPS classes like to...DPS. Alot. And there are many people that like to not pay attention to threat (GOTTA DO THE MOST DAMAGE BRO, epeen...etc). So, I don't see why you make the argument that healers aren't perfect all the time so extra HP padding is necessary, but yet ignore the same argument about threat.

 

Maybe it's my lack of knowledge about the current high end content, as I don't have actual experience with it (I just recently hit 50 and haven't had time lately to play much). So you're more than welcome to clear this up for me. Or anyone else for that matter.

 

The main reason for arguing that, is the DPS gain from willpower wouldn't be enough to suddenly make threat a non-issue. If your having issues holding threat, and you've done everything else to fix it (i/e, double checked your rotation, told the DPS to hold off, etc) then adding willpower might help, but it might not.

 

The amount of damage that willpower adds, even using extremely skewed math, is only 70DPS. This translates into 210 additional DPS that the DPS could push for (70*1.5 (default threat modifier from stance) = 105, 2 DPS make it 210) but if they are already pushing as far as could be, then the extra DPS gain isn't going to help threat, as threat is already under control.

 

I have played DPS classes before, and I've seen what happens when DPS gets careless and just pushes are far as they can go, without popping cool downs, and when that happens, you just let the DPS die. They will learn, sooner or later, and they either need to hold back on the throttle so the tank can establish threat, or they need to learn to pop their cool downs.

 

Basically it boils down to the age old saying, 'If the tank dies, its the healers fault, if the healer dies, its the tanks fault, if DPS dies, its their own fault.'

[mitey]

The main reason for arguing that, is the DPS gain from willpower wouldn't be enough to suddenly make threat a non-issue. If your having issues holding threat, and you've done everything else to fix it (i/e, double checked your rotation, told the DPS to hold off, etc) then adding willpower might help, but it might not.

 

I'm not saying adding DPS from Willpower will make threat a non-issue. I'm saying that an increase in threat means everyone can DPS a little harder(under the assumption that they ARE holding back).

 

Told the DPS to hold off? That's what we're trying to prevent here! Willpower might make that happen less. The DPS can DPS a little harder.

 

The amount of damage that willpower adds, even using extremely skewed math, is only 70DPS. This translates into 210 additional DPS that the DPS could push for (70*1.5 (default threat modifier from stance) = 105, 2 DPS make it 210) but if they are already pushing as far as could be, then the extra DPS gain isn't going to help threat, as threat is already under control.

 

OK, and are we assuming there's 2 DPS for every 1 healer or something? (This could be a fact, I'm not sure here. I get it for FPs of course, but haven't done an Operation.)

 

Regardless, I would think that that DPS would be much greater than the healers DPS gained from END on a tank. Do you not agree about this? Do we really need to consider how much a healer can actually DPS(from chance 100% crit heals), or can we just assume that it's not that great of an increase compared to tank+DPSers added DPS?

 

I have played DPS classes before, and I've seen what happens when DPS gets careless and just pushes are far as they can go, without popping cool downs, and when that happens, you just let the DPS die. They will learn, sooner or later, and they either need to hold back on the throttle so the tank can establish threat, or they need to learn to pop their cool downs.

 

OK, well letting the DPS die means NO DPS at all. Probably a wipe, and wasted time. Obviously. If they learn to hold back, once again, less DPS overall. Any added DPS to the tank means added DPS from...not only the tank but the DPSers as well. Once again, do you believe this added DPS is < the added DPS of a healer? Over the course of a whole fight?

 

If DPSers aren't holding back at all, if the DPS can go 100% all the time, then my whole point can be brought to rest here and now. I can drop this entire point if this is true.

[Arbegla]

If DPSers aren't holding back at all, if the DPS can go 100% all the time, then my whole point can be brought to rest here and now. I can drop this entire point if this is true.

 

From what has been said on the forums, by Kitru and others (and the others is what makes me believe it, as its been said in other places besides just in the Shadow forums) is that as long as your DPS lets you build up 10 seconds worth of threat, to get that initial burst, aside from 'threat drop mechanics' threat isn't an issue.

 

This means that regardless of how hard your DPS is going, you should still be able to hold threat off them. I highly doubt Bioware would design a game where the tank has to stack DPS stats (because that is what Willpower is) in order to hold threat off DPSers, when both parties are doing everything correctly (i/e tank is using proper rotation, DPS is using threat reducing cool downs, etc).

 

Now, I will say that if your DPS is doing something just flat out stupid, then you need to call them on it, and fixing that mistake would help out threat a lot more then adding willpower would. And my assumption of 2 DPS per group is based on flash points. Operations might skew those numbers any (off hand and i could be mistaken by it seems to be that in 8 man groups, you'd have 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 DPS. 16 man group, you'd have 2 tanks, 4 healers, 10 DPS)

 

I've told kitru, and others to just show me the pure math behind what kind of an actual DPS increase your looking at with willpower, following the same guidelines they force me to follow, like using a proper rotation, and accounting for base damage, and I'd give up this argument entirely. But all they have given me is skewed numbers, nothing seriously solid, and tried to say "its better then endurance, honest." while refusing to consider all the benefits of endurance.

 

A healer would never DPS more then a DPS class, but if threat isn't an issue, then you need to look at who would do the most DPS, a DPSing healer, or a DPSing tank? My money's on the healer personally, especially when they have abilities that can be used when they don't need to heal.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Arbegla

[Dracyula]

Your only healing when they drop below 80%. So anytime your tank is between 100% and 80% health, you can DPS. If your heals put them above 80%, then you focus on DPSing until they drop to below 80%. If they can keep themselves above 80% health (via self healing, or defensive cool downs) then you just keep DPSing until they drop below 80%.

 

In this instance, you gain no time for the healer by adding END.

 

Once again, the only thing that matters for additional time is the difference in over healing, period.

 

To further illustrate my point, I will use an example.

 

Tank 1 - 16k Max HP,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Tank 2 - 18k Max HP

 

Tank 1 - 80% = 12.8k,,,,,,,,,,,,, Tank 2 - 80% = 14.4k (These are the points when the healer will cast a heal).

 

A heal of 3k will put tank 1 at 15.8k, and tank 2 at 17.4k, neither tank was over healed, so there is no additional time.

 

A crit heal of 5k will over heal tank 1 by 1.8k, and tank 2 by 1.4k.

 

The important thing here is the difference. There is a difference of 400 health.

 

Now for maths sake, lets just say that the additional health for tank 2 adds 2 seconds to the TTD metric.

 

The difference in over healing happens to be 400 health, which is 20% of the initial HP gain (2k). This means that Tank 2 gained 20% of 2 seconds, which is .4 seconds.

 

The point is: this exact instance would have to happen 5 times in a fight to gain the same amount of time that the initial TTD provided.

 

EDIT: Not to mention, the healer has to be very skilled to make effective use of this time. A tank adding WIL has to make no extra effort to add his dps.

 

D

Edited January 30, 2012 by Dracyula

[TrevNYC]

I feel you're slightly incorrect in my point of view. My thought process isn't that 13 > 10, but that 13 > 6 (average healer) and thus your healer has 7 additional seconds to do other things, like DPSing.

 

Except that 10 is also > 6 (10 is the value assigned to the TTL for the WP tank) which means that the healer has 4 additional seconds. Stacking END doesn't buy you 7 seconds. It buys you 3 seconds more than the alternative. Your point has to be that 13>10, (i.e., END > WP) or else it makes no sense at all.

 

Kitru's view point is that there is no noticeable difference between 12 and 13, and thus 12 is good enough. He's also saying that even though the average healer still has 6 seconds of empty space, that the healer should still be focusing on the tank (via HoTs, or buffs, etc) and not worrying about DPS. The healers’ attention should be on the tank 100% of the time, regardless of if it is actually needed or not.

 

Your first sentence is correct, but your second and third ones are way off. Here's what he said:

 

It wouldn't matter if the tank had 20k or 120k hp: the healer would still have the same ratio of uptime-to-downtime (since healer DPS is best defined as optimally used downtime) to keep the tank at full health (which the healer should be doing since letting the tank stay low is pretty much the definition of bad healing).

 

He prettly clearly states that the healer can dps (and should dps, in an optimal rotation) if there's downtime that allows it. It's as if you decided that "optimal" means healing the tank and doing nothing else, when all it really means is healing back the damage that the tank takes so that they stay close to full.

 

The kicker is that keeping the tank full on health is only a function of two variables: DPS (from the boss) and HPS (from the healer). That's it. If the boss does 500 dps, then a tank with 20k health will take 2500 damage in 5 seconds, and the healer needs to be able to heal back 2500 damage in 5 seconds to keep up.

 

On the other hand, a tank with 22k health and the same amount of defense/shield (which isn't as safe an assumption, but I'll explain later) will take 2500 damage in 5 seconds, and the healer needs to be able to heal back 2500 damage in 5 seconds to keep up. Oh snap -- that's the same exact amount as the tank with less health needed.

 

That is why adding more health =/= more healer dps time. The healer only gains dps time if the HPS you need goes down (because boss dps goes down), which is a function of mitigation, not health. Now, I realize that you've been saying that Harnessed Shadows will result in more mitigation because it will restore more health on the 22k tank, but the difference (in this example) is only 240 health per application, or less than 0.5 seconds of boss dps -- and that's only when the effect applies, which is ~2 times/min. I don't know of a healer who plays close enough to the edge to be able to translate that into extra dps that wouldn't also lower their HPS, thus defeating the purpose. Note that I picked a low number for boss dps, so that the actual difference means even less as boss dps increases.

 

There's also the risk that people see "endurance stacking" and mistakenly pick the B variant tank mods because they have more END, but a lot less of the mitigation stats. If they do, then they offset the value of the extra health and then some. But to be fair, it's also possible that people see "willpower stacking" and mistakenly pick the A variant mods because they have more WP and even less of the mitigation stats. I think the first is more likely simply because people are so used to stacking END (even at the expense of mitigation) whereas people don't even think about stacking WP over mitigation.

[Kemorand]

It's not like you have much of a choice really. END will be on your tanking gear and there is no diminishing return on END, while there is on everything else you could get (except WILL).

 

Unless you completely overgear content, you'll have to use the END gear. Once you overgear content, then you can start removing END for more WILL, just to make HM runs quicker for example.

 

Also, one thing that was missed, is that pure END (and of course defenses), will give the tank longer to live during enrage phases. Could be one hit, two hits, but that's 3 seconds that can make the difference. END stacking is great in situations where healers simply cannot keep up.

[Barracudastr]

Honestly its up to your personal tastes.

 

If you find your dieing alot or healers cant keep you up due to huge spikes, stack some end.

 

If you are fine in that regard then stack some dps stats.

 

If you pvp alot and find your lacking burst to down people fast stack willpower/power over end.

 

Pretty simple really.