I guess what I'm having a hard time grasping, and this could just be due to what little I've tanked before, how 1620 damage could really matter, as it isn't even 1 full auto-attack worth of damage. Especially because its 1 and done, for the full duration. Yes, you are mitigating 40.5 damage per second post mitigation, but its really just 1 hit every 40 or so seconds. While I can understand that the shield technically lasts for 6 seconds, its also limited by 1620 damage. Which is basically just 1 hit. So from what I'm understanding, is you get a shield, every 40 seconds, which is then immediately torn down, and you can't get another one for 40 more seconds. Yes, it stopped 1620 damage from happening, but that is all it did. No more, and no less. This is in contrast to what the Shield amplification does, as it doesn't have an upper limit on how much damage it can actually absorb. Yes it relies on pre-mitigation values for shield and absorb, but it also procs more often, so wouldn't it prevent more overall damage, due to not having an upper limit? Is there a threshold I'm just not seeing where one relic would actually perform the other, but that threshold is to high that it doesn't factor into todays mitigation values? I would actually love to see the math on the pre-mitigation damage taken per second, and the average spread of damage types. I did some very brief theory crafting back in 1.1x, and I know the numbers have changed quite a bit since then. Just for my own clarification though, from what I understand, defense only handles melee/range type attacks, and not force/tech type attacks, but you can shield any attack that deals Kinetic/Energy damage even force/tech type attacks.

I'm not arguing that relics are amazing, and I really do understand what you are saying, that a flat damage shield, however small, is better then an absorb increase, because it soaks all of the damage, vs some of the damage. I'm having a hard time following your numbers though, and here is why: Nothing seems to consider proc chance. 1520 damage shield, with a 6 second up time, and a 40 second ICD -> 1520 divided by 6 gives you a 253.33 damage reduction per second, then multiply that by the up time of the damage shield, which is 6/40, or .15 (15%), and you have 255.33 * .15 or about 38 damage reduction per second. Looking at the 198 relic, you have 1620/6 * .15 or about 40.5 damage reduction per second. I'm not sure how you are getting the 42 dtps (damage taken per second?) but you also aren't counting the proc chance, of 30%. This further reduces the dtps as you can get an unlucky streak, where the proc doesn't proc. It happens, but to even it out, you have to take the proc chance into consideration, and reduce the dtps value by the proc chance, meaning you would have real benefit of 'amount per second * up time * proc chance', or 1620/6 * .15 * .3 or about 12.15 damage reduction per second for the Revanite Reactive Warding. This doesn't sit well with me either though, as the damage shield is only worth 1620 damage, and that can easily be done in 1 or 2 hits, which will happen faster then 6 seconds. Meaning for the remainder of your Internal Cool down, you have no protection at all from your relic. However, when you look at the absorb boost relic, things get a little weird. Using you're own numbers, You have a proc chance of your shield chance, as the relic procs on shielded attacks (so in this case 58%) The relic itself will add 890 absorb, which you said translates to about 7.578% more absorb. That varies based on gear level, but I'm assuming that you are using 198 gear, as those are the numbers you presented. The formula is going to be the same, as we want to figure out how much absorb per second we're actually getting, based on proc chance, however, as it will always last the full duration, instead of a set amount, we have to take that into consideration. The formula I used above is 'amount per second * up time * proc chance' amount per second is simply 890/6, or 148.33, up time is 6/20 or .3, and the proc chance is simply your shield chance, as the relic procs on shielded attacks, so you have 58% or .58. 148.33 * .3 * .58 = 25.81 absorb per second, but it lasts for the full 6 seconds, so you have a total of 154.86 absorb boost with the relic. You said that the absorb boost translates to about 7.578% more absorb in 198 gear, which takes into consideration diminishing returns, so if we rework the numbers, we have this: 7.578 * .3 * .58 = 1.32% absorb boost for the relic vs not having its at all, considering both its up time, and the proc chance The question then arises, is 1.32% more absorb, better then 12.15 damage per second reduction? Using your 2k damage taken per second ratio, the damage shield reduces that to 1987.85 damage taken per second, where the absorb is a little tricky to figure out but I'll try using your math as an example. The closest I could get to your 28dtps estimate was taking 2,000 * .8 (to account for all the attacks that are shield able) and then multiplying that by 1.933%, however that gave me 30.9 so i feel that something is wrong. The way that I would do it would be to take the 2,000 damage, multiply it by .8 to account for all shield able damage types, and then multiply it again by the shield chance (as you aren't going to shield every shield able attack) and then take that number and multiply it by your absorb chance as that is the damage you are actually going to prevent, so something like this: 2000 damage per second * .8 = 1600 damage per second that is shield able * .58 shield chance = 928 damage that could be shielded. Then * absorb to see how much damage is actually absorbed, and you'll have ((57.62[base chance] + 1.32[relic boost])) = .5894 so 928 * .5894 = 546.96 damage per second absorbed That is considering your base chance of 57.62, so we need to subtract that to find out how much the relic is actually benefiting you: 546.96 - (928 * 57.62) = 12.25 damage reduction per second, lasting for the full 6 seconds, as there is no cap on how much damage absorb can absorb. The damage shield is 1620 damage over its entire duration, and could easily be take out with 1 hit, where the absorb boost will last the full 6 seconds, and continue to absorb damage while the boost is there. Unless my math is simply wrong, but I tried to at least explain everything that I worked out. Please let me know what you think. TL;DR: Reactive Warding's Damage shield is worth 12.15 damage per second, with a cap of 1620 total damage over 6 seconds, and a cool down of 40 seconds Shield Amplification is worth 12.25 damage per second, with no cap during its 6 second duration, with a cool down of 20 seconds At least in 198 gear..

While I don't doubt your theory (that certain attacks, can't be shielded and thus the damage can't be prevented) I'd really like to see some hard numbers on how this interacts with our passives, and other cool downs. I only ask, because numerically speaking, 835 absorb translates to a pretty huge boost, and the increased up time (30%, vs 15%), and the amount of damage that is soaked up by Reactive Warding isn't even a full hit on trash mobs, with its longer internal cool down, it doesn't seem very useful. Aren't all Kinetic/Physical attacks shieldable? Even if they are labeled as Force/tech powers? (i/e I can shield Force Lightning, even though it is a force power)

So MK-1's are only available from comms (being basic - 186, elite 192, or ultimate 198) MK-2s are operation drops(198) or HM flashpoints (192), and the token ones are better then everything under the sun?

I have a quick question about this. Do you mean ear/implants from elite comms (192) or from the operation drops (198)? I know there are different 'MK-X' versions of each item, and while some are pretty obvious due to the mods they carry, what versions are the best all around? I read a guide that stated that MK-2 items, especially from the comms, are a waste because they sacrifice too many defense stats for endurance, but I'm not sure what level range those are in (192, 198, lower?) so its hard to make sure I'm getting the best gear possible. Especially with the new hard mode flashpoint changes, where MK-2 gear will be dropping a lot more often, I want to make sure I'm not losing out on anything specific.

Due to the god-awful commendation enhancements, are Advanced 36 enhancments the best you can get from the auction house? Are 37 level enhancments only available from actual drops? I've been looking on Harbringer, and I haven't really seen much 37 level items except for barrels and hilts.

to be entirely fair, KBN's way is still better then any other way.. yeah, the difference is not really measurable (~.135%) but it's still higher, and easier to look at. While I can understand the thought process behind the 'gear the way it feels' at the end of the day, everything is based on numbers, and numbers really can't lie, so while things may 'feel' different in different gear levels, its all anecdotal evidence, as the numbers tell the real story.

I guess that is the issue at hand then, is getting a group to run SM TFB or S&V, especially today with everyone wanting to run current content. Especially because Campaign gear isn't really worth the basic comms to get them. I'm about 80% done with the gear that I posted previously, and I've noticed a significant boost in my survival, especially without a companion healer, aside from getting the rotation down pat, and working on movement (being Story mode as got me in a 'tank and spank' mindset, and i know most bosses aren't that way) is there any other things I need to focus on? Due to running the Revan story, and doing some of the weekly that are solo-able, i've started to earn up some decent elite comms (the tier above basic). What would you'll recommend I purchase first using those comms?

This is something that I'm very interested in, however I haven't been able to find any hard numbers on what the exactly difference is. The numbers that I posted earlier show a budget of 3159 which is using Comm mods, crafted Advanced 36 enhancements and augments, crafted 186 relics (not the 193 ones, as the difference is ~10 stat points between then, but the cost difference is HUGE) and Comm ear and implants, Are the crafted Ear and implants that much better?

Ok, now that I've worked out some of the numbers myself, before I actually make the drive to purchase things, I wanted to touch base here, and get an opinion. Looking over the available crafted enhancements, and augments, and the Mods from level 60 basic gear, I came to a budget of 3,159. As that is right between 3100, and 3200, I had to finagle some numbers and hopefully I came to a good metric to go for. I plan on using the following: 1 defense Mod (60 defense) 8 Absorb Mods (480 Absorb) 5 Advanced Immunity Enhancements 36 (510 Shield, 340 Defense) 2 Advanced Sturdiness Enhancements 36 (204 Shield, 136 Absorb) 10 Advanced Absorb Augments 36 (520 Absorb) 1 Advanced Shield Augment 36 (52 Shield) 3 Advanced Redoubt Augment 36 (156 Defense) Basic Commendation Implant x2 (204 Shield, 206 Defense) Basic Commendation Ear Piece (102 Shield, 103 Absorb) Defense Relic x2 (86 Defense) Total: 848 Defense, 1072 Shield, 1239 Absorb I looked at the level 50 Survivor gear, and while the set bonus is nice, I'm losing almost 2k HP, and almost 500 armor rating, which I think translates to more then the 2% DR that the set bonuses gives me. While the 5% Shield bonus may offset it, I'm just not sure if it would be worth it, especially because I do plan on running flashpoints in the future, probably via the group finder, and I want to try to have a cushion in the event I get a poor PuG. Also, from what I have been reading, I need to get each piece of the Commendation gear, as the Armorings can only be used in specific gear slots (i/e, Bracer Armoring from the commendation gear can only go in Bracers, etc) As I plan on using so many Absorb Mods, this means buying all of the gear pieces, and then duplicating purchases to get the Mods I want. While there are more then enough Basic Commendations to go around, this seems tedious, so I'm hoping there may be a better option. Any advice or help would be appreciated.

Ok, thank you very much. I'm guessing 'tokens' are the item drops from operations, similar to WoW's gear token drops?

That makes sense, I was able to grab the Campaign Survivor's chest piece from the False Emperor quest, are there any other solo options to grab Survivor gear for free, or just spend the comms for it and enjoy the free-ish set bonuses?

I have a quick question about this, as the Shield Amplification relic boosts Absorb values, however you mention Force Shroud and Saber Reflect, which protects from Force/Tech powers (which can't be Absorbed or Shielded anyway, from what I understand, however I haven't really played since 1.0X so I could be wrong) So I'm not sure what exactly you mean... Could you clarify this a little bit for me?

How exactly do set bonuses work here? Is it based on the Armoring mod? or the actual item?

That is exactly what I wanted to hear, thank you so much. I'm barely getting back into SWTOR after a very long absence, and I want to try to not be a fail tank. This is the first MMO that I'm playing a tank in, and so far, I'm loving it. I'll be sure to follow your recommendations, and keep an eye on what defense stats I need to work towards. Thank you every much.

I have looked at that guide, and I perfected my rotation based on it, but from my understanding of the gearing section, it only pertains to operation level gear (token gear) not so much flashpoint and basic comm level gear, unless I'm just not understanding things very well. From what I can gather from the daily/weekly quests, there are non-operation ways to earn elite comms, but not ultimate? I guess I just need a refresher course in the stat structure, and where to get things, as the last thing I really played SWTOR was back in 1.0X....

I just dinged 60, or will tonight, and I'm sitting on a ton of basic comm, so I'm wondering what would be good 'starter' tank items to look into getting right away, and how should I gear up, or adjust the comm gear? I will more then likely NOT have time or the ability to do ops, so I can't look at that gear, unless there is a semi-solo/flashpoint way to get some of that gear. I also don't do PvP, so I'm looking at tank stats for strictly PvE encounters. I did a few searches, and while I did see the wonder tank stat guide, I didn't see anything that flat out says 'This range of numbers correlates to this gear level, or get this relic first, etc' and I would really love something like that so I can follow it. Please let me know if there is anything like that, or what advise I can use.

The problem is the 'Thrash til energize' part. While yes, you have a 51% chance to proc Energize per ICD that you spend on Thrash, you may not always get your energize procs fast enough to be able to build up your stacks of Harnessed. Its been shown, on the sithwarrior.com site, that only using Thrash as a force dump (as in when you are about to force cap) is more force effective, and about the same (if not higher) DPS, as your using Wither and Shock on cool down. Its also MUCH higher AoE DPS, as Wither is a beast for AOE threat. You also have MUCH higher surviabilty as you'll be using Force Lighting (with harnessed stacks at 3x) about 3 - 5 times a minute. Thrash spam to get Energize Procs puts a chokehold on your force regeneration (you need to spend 22 force, to proc an ability that will then make you use another 39 force within 10 seconds, or you lose the proc) and it puts a chokehold on the number of Force Lightnings you use per minute. Force lightning with 3x harnessed is force postive (as in, you gain more during its animation time then you spend using the ability) and deals almost as much damage as an Energized Shock does. If you have the force to spare, then by all means, use Thrash, but getting 3 stacks of harnesses is far more important then fishing for energize procs.

Plus, another thing to consider, is that you can proc Energize off of other attacks, besides Thrash. Thrash's damage is pretty low for its force cost, but Assassinate can also proc Energize, and you should be using it on cool down once the enemy is below 30%. You can also proc Energize off Lacerate, which is your 'go to' AoE power when your over abilities are off cool down, and you need to maintain threat. As long as you are hitting 3+ targets, Lacerate deals more damage, and has a higher proc chance on energize then Thrash, for slightly higher force cost.

Shield is low because you already have such a high value for it. Your base is between 35% and 40%. Your base defense is only 16%, and your base absorb is only 24%. So, you want to increase your defense and your absorb rating first, because you already have such a large value for your shield rating. And while you can't trade out shield for def/absorb on enhancements, you can trade out your mods, and augments so you limit the amount of shield you have, this only getting shield from your enhancements. Also depending on what rotation your actually using, and how much defense the enemy has you do actually need Accuracy as a means to hold threat on tougher mobs. All the defense/shield/absorb in the world won't help you if you can't hold threat. Sithwarrior.com has shown that Accuracy is best between 8 and 10% (Rakata gear has 10.5% accuracy on it base, just on the tier pieces) so that none of your attacks can miss, though they can still be dodged, or deflected.

Looking over your math, you seem to forgetting some very important things. 1st If your going to compare defense to shield to absorb, you need to consider how they all interact. You were correct that there are 2 rolls, 1 hit/miss, the other crit/shield, so an attack has to 'fail' your defense roll before it even hits your shield roll. The other thing to consider, is how does that 100 defense, affect your shield and absorb rating? Using your own math, lets look at your base 'total' damage taken. 25.27% defense, 55.77% shield, 44.5% absorb allows you to only take 254,895 damage, out of 450,000 total damage, or about an overall 43.36% reduction in overall damage. Adding 100 defense to your base puts you at 27.67% defense, 55.77% shield, and 44.5% absorb giving you these numbers: 41.505 attacks miss entirely, and we'd want to round up (as it'll give you the best 'average') putting you at 42 attacks that miss. So, only 108 attacks could even be shielded. with a 55.77% shield rate, you shield 60 of those attacks, and absorb 44.5% damage, giving you a total damage taken of only 243,900 damage, out of 450,000 total damage, or about an overall 45.8% reduction in damage. Adding 100 shield to your base puts you at 25.27% defense 59.83% shield, and 44.5% absorb. Your defense blocks 37 attacks, so you have the possibility of shielding 113 attacks. with a 59.83% shield rate, you actually shield about 67.6079 attacks, or rounding up, about 68 attacks, for 44.5% less damage. Giving you a total damage taken of 248,220 damage, out of 450,000 total damage, or about an overall 44.84% reduction in damage. Adding 100 absorb to your base puts you at 25.27 defense, 55.77 shield, and 53.63 absorb. Your defense blocks 37 attacks, and you shield 63 attacks, for 53.63 less damage. Giving you a total damage taken of 237,639 out of 450,000 total damage, or about an overall 47.19% reduction in damage taken. This shows you that Absorb is much more valuable then Shield or defense (47.19% reduction in damage with 100 more absorb), but that defense is also better then shield, by a decent margin (45.8% damage reduction with 100 more defense, vs 44.84% damage reduction with 100 more shield) If you look at the spreadsheet from sithwarrior.com, you'd see that you really want to ignore Shield as much as possible, until you have over 700 total rating (as in, between shield, defense, and absorb, you have 700 points to play with) and even then, you only want 50 shield, with 400 defense, and 250 absorb. the spreadsheet itself is right here: Your assuming 900 rating, which first off, may not even be possible, and secondly would have closer to 350 defense, 200 shield, and 350 absorb if you follow the spreadsheet, to take the less amount of damage.

Here's the exact quote: So, if you use Harnessed Shadows (i/e TK Throw) 2 times a minute, it amounts to about 100HPM, or about 40% of Rapid Recovery, but the rotations we're looking at now, use Harnessed Shadows 4 to 5 times a minute (i/e every 12 to 14 seconds) which boosts the HPM of Mental Fortitude to 200 to 250 HPM, which is exactly what Rapid Recovery would give you. The above is also at 20k hit points. If you have more hit points (from endurance) then Mental Fortitude is even better, as Rapid Recovery doesn't scale at all with stats, and Harnesses Darkness (and your other self heals) do scale. While this is true, the healing from CT procs doesn't increase at all. It doesn't scale, so the amount of threat you generate with it is the same at 20k hit points, and at 30k hit points. The healing from TK Self heals (and battle readiness) scales with endurance, thus adding more endurance increases your threat generation, as it boosts your self healing even more. If you look over the math that was done, Sithwarrior.com accounts for between 1 attack per GCD (like say, Spinning Strike) to 3 attacks per GCD (like in Saber Strike) and averages it out. They increase in the ICD for Combat Technique didn't change anything on average but it definitely changed how often it comes up. This lowers the usage of Rapid Recovery massively, as shown here Due to the ICD, your only gaining about 6% to 8% total on your proc chance, depending on if Battle Readiness is active or not. Its not that massive of an increase. If you actually looked over the thread in question, you would see that Sithwarrior.com is pushing for an 8% accuracy amount (as that seems to be about the softcap, could be higher though as people are still seeing misses) which would use some of that accuracy you have on your gear. Then, you want to swap it to Surge as much as possible, due to PA, Force Synergy, and Force Potency making Critical a very limited use stat. This is all after you have stated as much defensive stats as possible and hit DR on everything. Something to consider though, is that DR is about 30% for defense, 50% for shield, and 50% for absorb, from ratings. Even rakata gear, if you were able to redesign it completely wouldn't give you those numbers from ratings alone, when you consider the base amounts you already have as a Shadow Tank. When you account for base stats, and DR, a shadows 'max' defense is closer to 46% defense, 90% shield, and 74% absorb. This is due to the base defense being 16%, base shield being 40% (20% base and 20% from Kinetic Ward with the 2 piece bonus) and 24% absorb. Its just not possible to hit those numbers on the current gear level, so its not worth trading out defensive rating for offensive rating unless you just can't find anything else to slot up your defensive ratings anymore.

Here is what you might be looking for Kitru, its on the first page of the Sith Assassin/Jedi Shadow Tanking Compendium: That clearly shows you that taking Double Strike out of your rotation (or rather, only using it when everything else it on cool down) amounts to a DPS boost of .06% to 3%. So its not much of a DPS increase, but the survivability increase is pretty massive. You are also still largely ignoring the math sithwarrior.com has done for the Rapid Recovery vs Mental Fortitude debate. Due to the ICD of Combat Technique, Rapid Recovery is largely useless, and its been proven time and time again over on the sithwarrior.com forums. I'd personally still keep Applied Force, for those times where you have extra force, and everything is on cool down. Just something to think about.

If your going to consider Sithwarrior.com at all, then you need to basically disregard everything Kitru tells you. His rotation still uses the old 'Double strike/spinning strike until PA, then Project' with Slow time and Force breach used on cool down, and TK throw used at 3 stacks. While it isn't entirely wrong, its not what sithwarrior is preaching at all. Basically, due to the changes on Slow Time, you need to be using Both Slow time and Project at much as possible (every cool down) and limiting your Double Strike to only be used when everything is on cool down AND you have upwards of 80 force available. PA isn't as useful, especially if you are using Force Potency on cool down, so you don't need to 'fish' for PA procs anymore. This allows you to get 3 stacks of HS every 12 or so seconds, and allows you to use TK throw that often. Thus increasing your overall damage (due to HS boosting TK throw's damage) and your overall mitigation (due to the constant healing of HS) as shown here This also boosts the benefit of endurance (and thus mental foritude) higher, as you'll be healing about 1% of your hit points every second, disregarding any Combat Technique procs you get, and limiting the value of Rapid Recovery. This is also addressed at sithwarrior.com here Also, Shield is next to useless until a certain gear level, due to the high shield chance Shadows already have (35-40% with kinetic ward) so you really only want to stack defense and absorb until your absorb matchs your shield chance (with kinetic ward active) and then you want to increase all 3, slightly lowering your defense chance to increase both your shield and absorb chance. This is again shown on sithwarrior.com about here: While your guide does cover the basics, i feel you would be better off looking over the many discussion over at sithwarrior.com in regards to shadow and assassin tanks, and going off that.

Daily quests, PvP, etc are all solo activities, where your damage really doesn't matter. Mobs don't regenerate hit points in combat (just like players) and you can very easily interrupt most healing abilities. If you can't die, but you are able to deal damage to them, then you have nothing to worry about, as you will be able to kill them sooner or later. Bioware only says our Primary stat is Willpower because of the fact that Aim, Cunning, and strength don't benefit us at all. Saying "stack willpower because bioware says its out main stat" is ignoring the fact that any other stat (cunning, aim, strength) does basically NOTHING for us at all. Also, for a tank, 80% of the gear has higher endurance on it then willpower. This is by design, as tanks are not meant to deal massive amounts of damage, but they are meant to hold threat, and be able to take a hit. The other 20% of the gear that you could put higher amounts of willpower in are basically select mods. That is what we are arguing right now, is it worth it to find mods with higher willpower on them over endurance, just for the sake of possibly doing more damage (while giving up surviability for it) and would that extra damage even matter? the DR on defense is about 30%, shield/absorption have a DR of 50%. Once you get to about 25% defense, you start feeling the affects of DR, and once you hit about 40% shield/absorb you start feeling DR. You have a base defense of about 16%, a base shield of 35% (with kinetic ward) and a base absorption of 24%. You want to stack equal amounts of defense and absorption until you absorpion matches your shield, then stack equal amounts of everything until you hit DR (basically, stack defense and absorption until you have an absorption of 35%, and once you hit 25% defense, stop stacking defense (or stack very little) and focus on keeping your shield and absorption equal as much as possible.