Endurance v. Willpower (Shadow Tanking)

[worldsapartmm]

Heres a little curve ball for the "know it alls" in this thread.

 

Im currently in some T2 Columni Gear.

 

Every single piece of this T2 set has to similarties:

 

1) End > Willpower

(This is true for every single Shadow Tank Set)

 

2) There is no Defense or Shield really. Its all Accuracy and Absorb.

 

The gear is pre-modded with lvl 56 Mod/Enhancement (something that doesn't appear to be achievable anywhere else except maybe from drops)

 

The only + Defense and Shield I saw from T1-T2 was on the implants and perhaps my T2 Shield Generator. (There are no Mods or Enhancements for Daily Commendations either)

 

 

 

The gear at 50 is pre-determined until more high level mods become available.

 

 

Exactly. At this point it's hardly a choice, so take your Endurance gear when you can get it, do your best and have fun.

[Selestian]

As a tank, you should prioritize as follows: (Defense>Shield>Absorb)>Willpower>Endurance. Endurance just doesn't do enough to make it worthwhile to stack to any appreciable extent.

 

I don't really buy into this regarding willpower > endurance. Willpower does nothing for a kinetic shadow. You do more dps yes, but dps it not what a tank is suppose to do.

 

As it is at 47 stacking def/sheld/absorb and endurance>willpower I have survivability issues on even some "strong" mobs. When they hit for 1500-1800 that 13k health dwindles very quickly. I am constantly having to use unity and deflection on even some simple fights.

 

I use a pretty standard spec for kinetic but finding the balance choices mediocre at best. The one thing that would have been nice is the heal on crit dots but the only one we have is mind crush and it's pretty pointless to cast while in combat.

 

I'm becoming really disappointed in the shadow tankability frankly. It could be I just need to sort out some better spec or mods. I use the highest level mods I can (make them myself) of blue quality or better as is... and it really just seems to not make that much difference. I would think with my quality of gear I could easily take on normal/strong mobs w/o much trouble but that's not the case.

[roosh]

I'm becoming really disappointed in the shadow tankability frankly. It could be I just need to sort out some better spec or mods. I use the highest level mods I can (make them myself) of blue quality or better as is... and it really just seems to not make that much difference. I would think with my quality of gear I could easily take on normal/strong mobs w/o much trouble but that's not the case.

 

What does your current rotation look like?

 

If you are using Harnessed Shadows and ensuring that kinetic ward is always up, you shouldn't go below 90% health when fighting elites (assuming you use Thane as your companion). Also make sure you use interrupts.

[Kitru]

I don't really buy into this regarding willpower > endurance. Willpower does nothing for a kinetic shadow. You do more dps yes, but dps it not what a tank is suppose to do.

 

Faster killing means fewer mobs beating on you (while soloing) and easier threat generation (in groups). Willpower makes you substantially more effective at tanking, assuming your healer isn't getting lazy.

 

I'm becoming really disappointed in the shadow tankability frankly. It could be I just need to sort out some better spec or mods. I use the highest level mods I can (make them myself) of blue quality or better as is... and it really just seems to not make that much difference. I would think with my quality of gear I could easily take on normal/strong mobs w/o much trouble but that's not the case.

 

I have no clue what your problems are because I had no issue on my Kinetic (31/0/10) as I was leveling (currently 50) and I used the (Defense>Shield>Absorb)>Willpower>Endurance priority that I encourage others to use. Whenever I group, I have never seen healers complain about healing me, and, when asked, they always say that is, in fact, easier to heal me than it is with any of the other tanks they've run with. Many healers have actually *lauded* my performance and the fact that they don't have to heal me nearly as often as other tanks. Perhaps this is due to the fact that I know how to play Shadow exceptionally well, but I have a notion that it's also due to the fact that I actively stack gear in the given priority. Since my health never drops below 50%, stacking Endurance would actually detract from my functionality because I wouldn't be killing things as quickly nor would I be able to establish threat as efficiently.

 

As to how the commendation tank gear is set up, it's not as if the devs decided to provide absolutely optimized gear to anyone. The fact that the gear is loaded with Endurance, Absorb and Accuracy demonstrates nothing since you can always switch mods out. I expect that the given gear has such "bad" stat assignments because the Shadows were added late in the development cycle so even the devs haven't done much theorycrafting to determine what stats they should be given. If anything, I predict that future gear is going to have completely different stats assigned to it when the devs have been able to reap the knowledge of the experience and theorycrafting of the players.

[drgnmstr_]

Another one of those blind HP is pointless rtards, i saw countless liek you in wow. The fact that MT of #1 world guild stacked sta, clearly means nothing because all sta stacking tanks were rtards and it clearly didn't work.

 

...

 

Ah you must be one of those people that does zero research on your class and probably had a paladin tank stacking INT because you needed mana after that was changed.

 

As already pointed out, different tanking classes require different things. A druid tank in WoW needs a ton of Stam because they have little to no mitigation on bear form as compared to a Warrior tank.

 

In this game it's going to be similar. stat preferences will be completely different across tanks. I've seen that higher Willpower helped me maintain threat on mobs in flashpoints. higher threat to the tank means the healer isn't getting killed, thus providing survivability because your healer can stay up to heal you. A dead healer in a group usually means a wipe.

 

Blindly stacking End as a Shadow tank would be bad for your group as you'd be taking way more damage than needed, causing the healer to run out of power to heal you. You need mitigation as a tank to avoid incoming damage. you also need to keep threat up because you can't spam taunts.

[Zintair]

As to how the commendation tank gear is set up, it's not as if the devs decided to provide absolutely optimized gear to anyone. The fact that the gear is loaded with Endurance, Absorb and Accuracy demonstrates nothing since you can always switch mods out. I expect that the given gear has such "bad" stat assignments because the Shadows were added late in the development cycle so even the devs haven't done much theorycrafting to determine what stats they should be given. If anything, I predict that future gear is going to have completely different stats assigned to it when the devs have been able to reap the knowledge of the experience and theorycrafting of the players.

 

You means they need to theorycraft how Defense is > Shield? They created the system how could have have to theorycraft about how classes are balanced around it?

 

It was common knowledge that this was the case from the VERY FIRST SS's of Character page stuff.

 

 

Yes mods are also interchangeable but I have yet to see any lvl 56 mods dropping in Heroics or Eternity Vault Normal or Hard Mode Or on the Bonethrasher fight.

 

 

Will they be implemented? Probably. But the secondary stats have nothing to do with your campaign to enforce Willpower > Endurance. And the one Mod you cannot change on the armor is the Armoring which dictates Armor and the Primary and Secondary stats. In order to get the tanking sets you will need to choose Endurance over Willpower. Implants as well as Earpieces all have Endurance > Willpower and you cannot alter these stats either.

 

 

I have no problems keeping aggro off Sentinels without even guarding them. My added HP allows for more raid heals and while my DPS is a little lower my healers can add their own DPS to the fights because they don't have to heal as much.

[Kitru]

You means they need to theorycraft how Defense is > Shield? They created the system how could have have to theorycraft about how classes are balanced around it?

 

If you honestly believe that just because the devs developed the game that they know how to optimize everything, you're obviously completely new to theorycrafting or any kind of game design. Any time a game is developed, the developers can have a specific view of how the game is going to turn out and, because of the math used, it often turns out *completely different*.

 

I have no problems keeping aggro off Sentinels without even guarding them. My added HP allows for more raid heals and while my DPS is a little lower my healers can add their own DPS to the fights because they don't have to heal as much.

 

Let me explain this to you again because you apparently haven't learned it: additional hit points do not prevent you from needing heals, they do no decrease incoming damage *at all*, and they will not magically allow your healers to heal less over the course of a fight.

 

Claiming, somehow, that higher hit points allow your healers to throw in their own attacks is a blatant lie.

 

My "campaign" to tell people to stack Willpower over Endurance is logically founded in how the game operates. Your defense is logically founded in, well, nothing. Your experience and diatribes simply serve to demonstrate how little you actually know about tanking.

 

Endurance only provides a cushion before you need further heals. If you're already receiving heals and don't plan on being 1 shot, additional hit points are *completely redundant*. They aren't going to make you take less damage. If you never drop below the threshold of difference (re: if I have 14000 hp and you have 15000, the threshold of difference is 1000), *they did absolutely nothing*. If you want to *do* something with those stats instead of let them languish and comfort you in your higher max hp, you want to divert those resources into Willpower.

 

The entire point of my "campaign" is for people to put stats where they will do the most good. Since continually increasing your hit points does *very little* in the way of good since you virtually never drop that low, additional Willpower *is* more useful because, at the very least, you're killing things faster and generating more threat.

[Zintair]

Stuff

 

First, what I'm saying is that as a Shadow I kept my stats 60% End 40% Willpower. Basically as the gear and mods are handled throughout leveling and into 50.

 

Second, more HP = more cushion time for a healer to do OTHER THINGS aside from healing you. It gives them more flexibility. If you have tanked ANY end game encounter you will notice that there are enrage timers and different effects that require people to do things other than sit there and heal/tank/dps. Since you believe my arguments are based on nothing Ill relate with you with some IN GAME REAL TANKING examples.

 

First - Operation bosses have roughly 1-2 million health. Keep that in mind for your added DPS and threat.

 

 

Hard Mode : Esseless (I always spell this wrong)

 

Ironfist - The fight requires you to run around like crazy to avoid missiles or sit through them and take them while healing. When there is heavy AoE damage sometimes it can be difficult for the Healer to swap from AoE healing the group to healing the tank again.

 

Final Boss in Essesles (The Sith forget his name) - This boss requires everyone to be in motion a lot to avoid the Purple Lightning attack. Having more HP on this fight allows the healer more freedom to reset their location and toss out group heals when the boss starts Lightsaber throwing a target. This attack can kill a player on the same channel if they are not immediately healed and with no Target of Target the healer has to be extremely fast.

 

 

Eternity Vault - Soa Phase 3 is extremely DPS and healing intensive when the mind traps start adding up while the tank tried to place the boss. Having added HP here is 100% more effective because the boss is invulnerable until you walk him under the yellow thing. Then he drops down vulnerable but does not hit you. Not sure the added DPS will even be noticeable here.

 

Your only point is the added DPS because threat does not matter. If I can hold aggro with my setup and not lose it, then the added DPS from your set doesn't mean anything. All you are contributing is added DPS instead of added survivability.

 

THAT'S my point.

 

 

Your telling me that the tank living longer is less important than the tank dealing added damage. Considering threat is not an argument because I don't lose threat (as I explained and you disregarded as irrelevant and missing the point) it seems its an issue over added DPS vs added HP and regen.

 

Ill let the DPS handle the DPS. Ill stick to tanking. I understand your need for efficiency but I haven't seen a reason to head in that direction. If its a case of DPS then the off tank should be replaced with DPS.

 

EDIT: BTW if you stacked willpower > Endurance I would have a lot more than 100 Endurance at lvl 50. I also love how you continue to say you built you arguements around game mechanics and the game mechanics itself have Shadow Tank armor withy Endurance > Willpower.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Zintair

[worldsapartmm]

If you honestly believe that just because the devs developed the game that they know how to optimize everything, you're obviously completely new to theorycrafting or any kind of game design. Any time a game is developed, the developers can have a specific view of how the game is going to turn out and, because of the math used, it often turns out *completely different*.

 

 

 

Let me explain this to you again because you apparently haven't learned it: additional hit points do not prevent you from needing heals, they do no decrease incoming damage *at all*, and they will not magically allow your healers to heal less over the course of a fight.

 

Claiming, somehow, that higher hit points allow your healers to throw in their own attacks is a blatant lie.

 

My "campaign" to tell people to stack Willpower over Endurance is logically founded in how the game operates. Your defense is logically founded in, well, nothing. Your experience and diatribes simply serve to demonstrate how little you actually know about tanking.

 

Endurance only provides a cushion before you need further heals. If you're already receiving heals and don't plan on being 1 shot, additional hit points are *completely redundant*. They aren't going to make you take less damage. If you never drop below the threshold of difference (re: if I have 14000 hp and you have 15000, the threshold of difference is 1000), *they did absolutely nothing*. If you want to *do* something with those stats instead of let them languish and comfort you in your higher max hp, you want to divert those resources into Willpower.

 

The entire point of my "campaign" is for people to put stats where they will do the most good. Since continually increasing your hit points does *very little* in the way of good since you virtually never drop that low, additional Willpower *is* more useful because, at the very least, you're killing things faster and generating more threat.

 

*clap, clap, clap...*

 

Okay, this sold me. Right now I'm Infiltration but have been toying with the idea of switching to Kinetic.

[Kitru]

Ironfist - The fight requires you to run around like crazy to avoid missiles or sit through them and take them while healing. When there is heavy AoE damage sometimes it can be difficult for the Healer to swap from AoE healing the group to healing the tank again.

 

Just completed this and the missiles were a joke. The only mechanic worth mentioning was the head shot that needs to always be interrupted and, when that hits, however many hit points you have doesn't really matter since it deals so friggin' much at once.

 

Final Boss in Essesles (The Sith forget his name) - This boss requires everyone to be in motion a lot to avoid the Purple Lightning attack. Having more HP on this fight allows the healer more freedom to reset their location and toss out group heals when the boss starts Lightsaber throwing a target. This attack can kill a player on the same channel if they are not immediately healed and with no Target of Target the healer has to be extremely fast.

 

Same thing that I said before applies here. Just did it with my heavy Willpower stacked setup and had *no problem*. If you're using mechanics that you are supposed to *avoiding* as an excuse to stack more hit points, you're using really bad logic. If you avoid it, you're not taking damage so the amount of hit points you have doesn't really matter.

 

Your telling me that the tank living longer is less important than the tank dealing added damage. Considering threat is not an argument because I don't lose threat (as I explained and you disregarded as irrelevant and missing the point) it seems its an issue over added DPS vs added HP and regen.

 

I'm telling you that a modicum of additional hit points that you never drop down into mean less than additional damage and threat.

 

EDIT: BTW if you stacked willpower > Endurance I would have a lot more than 100 Endurance at lvl 50. I also love how you continue to say you built you arguements around game mechanics and the game mechanics itself have Shadow Tank armor withy Endurance > Willpower.

 

So the fact that the devs have assigned gear with a specific emphasis means that the priorities that I have given to players are somehow *wrong*? If anything, it means that the devs haven't done a lot of analysis on their own and simply assumed that Endurance would be a more important stat than Willpower, just like a lot of tank gear makes the assumption that Absorption is more important than Defense (on a point for point basis, Defense is going to make you harder to kill).

 

Do not take the actions of the devs to indicate proper action. I can assure you that the devs have done little to no theorycrafting to determine optimal stat allotment and stat prioritization. The devs have, in all likelihood, done the basic math that sets out how the stats are assigned and what they do and gone from there.

 

What you may need to realize is that the devs are not omniscient. There are many things about the game that they have yet to learn themselves. Stat prioritization for specific classes is *most definitely* one of these things. Hell, look at the value of Mental Fortitude as it applies to most tank builds: almost no one takes it because it's so worthless, yet, somehow, the devs thought that 3% Endurance was going to be worth *enough* that you would take it over one of the many other talents that we consider to be vastly better. Somehow, this is not the case, which means that the devs either *wanted* the additional Endurance talents to be seen as largely worthless by the player base (which seems strange for *any* developer to design a talent that is seen as worthless) or they overestimated the value of Endurance as it applies to any player but especially tanks.

 

The game is still in its infancy and so is the experience and knowledge of the devs. Since players are pretty much guaranteed to learn the game faster than the devs (if you doubt this, consider that, first, we do this analysis for fun and they do it as part of their *jobs* and, second, that there are *many* more players doing this very math in the first place, probably bordering on several orders of magnitude more), the devs have to constantly play knowledge catch-up. If the devs see players devalueing Endurance and they want it to be more important, I expect some changes, but I don't expect the fact that Endurance is relatively worthless compared to any other stat available to change simply because someone disagrees.

 

The world is not flat. Deal with it.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Kitru

[Ancaglon]

So I just hit 40 as a Kinetic tank on Quesh -- full kinetic, so picked up Slow Time -- and to this point I've been picking the items and mods etc. that have Endurance more than Willpower. I'm close to 11k HP now, but I'm worried that it's taking me a lot longer to kill quest-type mobs than it should. With Theran to heal me, I can usually grind them all down, but it's SLOW.

 

For the purposes of PVE levelling to 50 (with Flashpoint and heroic quest tanking along the way), should I try and swap to Willpower gear or just keep going as I am then worry about end-game gear once I hit 50 and have the full panoply of skills and abilities available?

Edited January 5, 2012 by Ancaglon

[Kitru]

For the purposes of PVE levelling to 50 (with Flashpoint and heroic quest tanking along the way), should I try and swap to Willpower gear or just keep going as I am then worry about end-game gear once I hit 50 and have the full panoply of skills and abilities available?

 

Personally, since you still get plenty of Endurance out of the Willpower stacked mods, I would go with the Willpower stacked ones. With Tharan, you shouldn't really notice your hit points dip low *ever* (if you're playing and geared intelligently) since his heals should counter any attrition.

[Morrtin]

I also just hit 40 and I bought the complete PvP set. X of the Eclipse. It is a very good mix of stats. Only for implants I took the defense ones with a lot of endurance on it. So I have 10,5k health and still hit pretty hard.

[Sterrius]

at lv50 you will have to choose willlpower or endurance set. (yes the game have sets, its just a endgame thing).

 

If you go willpower you will have a lot less HP. We are not talking about 1000hp we are talking about 3000-4000hp and even more as im half champion set only. (and its the champion, not even the battlemaster that have crazy stats).

 

 

I have a friend jedi sage. Sages of course use the same armor and he also is going for the champion set, but of course his focus is willpower.

 

So how much can you get?

 

I have 1500 endurance and 1050 willpower.

He have 1500 willpower and 1050 endurance.

 

His HP is around 13000. My Hp is almost 18k.

 

I think i can get to 1600-1800 stamina maximum with the best non-raid gear.

My willpower will stay in 1200-1300.

 

So we are talking around 4-7k HP beetween a willpower shadow vs a endurance shadow.

This added with harnessed shadows can make a real difference in combat.

 

Of course you can try to mix and stay with 1300 will/1300 end, but i dont really see the advantage unless you are going pvp. (Even in PVP you can get benefits going full endurance).

Edited January 5, 2012 by Sterrius

[jeffmacdonald]

 

Defense mitigates 100% of incoming damage when it occurs.

Shield mitigates 20-30+% of incoming damage when it occurs, which can only take place after Defense fails.

Absorb increases the contribution of your Shield rating.

 

With a 4:2:1 ratio of need (you need 4 points of Defense to get the same percent gain benefits to the stat that you get from 2 points of Shield or 1 point of Absorb), this means that Defense is worth 25% (100% reduction / 4 point per percent), Shield is worth 15% (30% reduction / 2), and Absorb simply works to increase your contribution of Shield (so high absorb with no shield is functionally worthless).

 

 

Very interesting.... total beginner here, what's the best way to increase defense? I'm guessing through equipment, but I noticed that so far at lvl 27, armor doesn't seem to really increase defense as much. What sort of equipment should I be focussing on?

[oddmyth]

So I just hit 40 as a Kinetic tank on Quesh -- full kinetic, so picked up Slow Time -- and to this point I've been picking the items and mods etc. that have Endurance more than Willpower. I'm close to 11k HP now, but I'm worried that it's taking me a lot longer to kill quest-type mobs than it should. With Theran to heal me, I can usually grind them all down, but it's SLOW.

 

For the purposes of PVE levelling to 50 (with Flashpoint and heroic quest tanking along the way), should I try and swap to Willpower gear or just keep going as I am then worry about end-game gear once I hit 50 and have the full panoply of skills and abilities available?

 

I had a similar problem until I realized I don't need to cast Slow Time on cooldown.

 

Slow time is a great ability for grouping or trying to AoE down a group of mobs however in solo'ing its really not all that great of an ability. It has a 15 second uptime and a 7.5 second CD. To keep the debuff up you really only need to hit it once every other CD. Your double strike does more damage than Slow Time, so use a couple of DSs between your Slow Time casts and you will see your DPS increase.

 

Double Strike can also proc Particle Acceleration, again a DPS increase.

 

The only time you should be hitting Slow time almost on cooldown is when you are tanking for a group (and always if you have more then one mob on you). Its one of your highest threat abilities (Project being the highest). Even then I find myself using Double Strike to help proc Particle Acceleration and hitting Slow Time about every 10 seconds if no one is pulling mobs off me, marking and making a kill order will certainly help with this.

 

In terms of Force used, using Double Strike makes even more sense. Slow Time costs 30 force and Double Strike costs 25 (23 talented w/ Psychokinesis). Two Double Strikes will cost the same as 1.5 Slow Time casts (when talented).

 

Willpower based gear really isn't going to change that as much as learning a proper DPS cycle for solo tanking.

[oddmyth]

Very interesting.... total beginner here, what's the best way to increase defense? I'm guessing through equipment, but I noticed that so far at lvl 27, armor doesn't seem to really increase defense as much. What sort of equipment should I be focussing on?

 

It's interesting but somewhat false because at level 50 each point of defense rating and each point of shield and absorb rating will suffer diminishing returns at vary rates.

 

Defense is stackable up to about 24% and then it takes a lot of defense rating to push it past that.

 

Shield and absorb are both stackable up to about 43-45% before suffering greater dimishing returns.

 

You will find gear with defense, shield and absorb. Look on your GTN, there should be some up there for your level, I'm not sure I found quest items at your level with those stats.

 

Up to level 50 you will not have to worry about dimishing returns on any secondary stat, however post 50 stacking def will certainly have its drawbacks post the 24-25% mark.

[madmilitia]

Faster killing means fewer mobs beating on you (while soloing) and easier threat generation (in groups). Willpower makes you substantially more effective at tanking, assuming your healer isn't getting lazy.

 

 

 

 

 

ok the heroic dailies give you 2 options.

 

something like this

 

armor piece

 

41 endurance and 31 willpower

 

the other is 31 endurance and 41 willpower

 

which one would you take.

[TrevNYC]

ok the heroic dailies give you 2 options.

 

something like this

 

armor piece

 

41 endurance and 31 willpower

 

the other is 31 endurance and 41 willpower

 

which one would you take.

 

I'm not sure what this question is. Kitru opts for willpower over endurance, and has said this several times (even in the part you quoted). So the answer is the second one, because -- drum roll please -- it has more willpower than the first one.

[DarthOvertone]

Kitru you say: Defense > Shield > Absorption

 

Alratan Guide says: Shield > Defense > Absorption

 

Is there a game mechanic explanation for that or is it just a "What I feel" decision?

 

I agree with Kitru on this point. It just seems like a no brainer simply for the fact that...

 

Defense mitigates 100% of incoming damage when it occurs.

 

But if you don't believe it, experiment with it yourself. I've played with stacking both Defense and Shield/+Absorb in FPs. The +Def came out a winner by a longshot. Additionally, I think the +Def is a really nice synergy with Deflection and Kinetic Ward as well. Although I could see someone making a case to stack for extra +Absorb if they are popping KW every time it is off cooldown.

 

I don't really buy into this regarding willpower > endurance. Willpower does nothing for a kinetic shadow. You do more dps yes, but dps it not what a tank is suppose to do.

 

I don't think stacking Health for Health's sake is the way to roll either, even as a Tank. Best approach is to find the happy mean or tipping point where you have the Health you need and can fill other stats like Willpower. I've always been a firm believer that DPS is king anyway, and the last thing a good tank should do is gimp themselves into turtling fights.

[JeremyDale]

 

Let me explain this to you again because you apparently haven't learned it: additional hit points do not prevent you from needing heals, they do no decrease incoming damage *at all*, and they will not magically allow your healers to heal less over the course of a fight.

 

.

 

 

 

And let me explain this again, because you apparantly haven't learned it; additional hit points (especially when combined with high mitigation bonuses) does prevent you from needing as much healing, because it increases the amount of time you can live without needing heals. I don't know why you have such a hard time understanding this.

 

Let me give you a simple and easy to understand example, and for the sake of argument we will assume these facts:

 

Tank1 has 10k HP and 50% chance to defelect attacks.

 

Tank2 has 5k HP and 50% chance to deflect attacks.

 

 

Ok tank1 fights a boss that hits for 1k damage. That means tank1 can take roughly 20k worth of damage before he needs healing and dies.

 

Now tank2 fights the same boss. Now because he has 5kHP instead of 10K, he can only roughly take 10k worth of damage before he dies. So basically the healer is going to have to heal tank2 twice as much as he did tank1 - because Tank2 can only take 10k worth of damage before he needs healing, where as tank1 can take 20k worth of damage before he needs healing.

 

This means tank2 will need twice the amount of healing as tank1, and take twice the amount of force to heal.

 

Extra HP is not there just to "look pretty" like you said to me in that other thread. It significantly decreases the amount of healing you will need.

 

Hopefully this very very simple and easy to understand example will help you understand the importance of higher HP pools, and why you are simply wrong when you say "hit points do not not magically allow your healers to heal less over the course of a fight" because actually it does magically do just that.

Edited January 5, 2012 by JeremyDale

[TrevNYC]

I don't think stacking Health for Health's sake is the way to roll either, even as a Tank. Best approach is to find the happy mean or tipping point where you have the Health you need and can fill other stats like Willpower. I've always been a firm believer that DPS is king anyway, and the last thing a good tank should do is gimp themselves into turtling fights.

 

This is the main point right here. Conceptually I think some people have difficulty because there isn't a one-size fits all rule. The answer depends more on what you have to do than anything else.

 

Let's use the example from earlier in the thread where one shadow had 13k health using willpower and the other had 18k health stacking endurance. Now suppose they are both up against a boss that can hit for up to 10k, after armor, and they have 20% shield absorb. These are the possibilities:

 

Boss hits twice for 10k each (20k total): Both tanks are dead. No difference.

Boss hits once for 10k and once for 8k (blocked) (18k total): Both tanks are dead. No difference.

Boss misses twice (0k total): Both thanks are alive. No difference.

Boss hits once for 10k and misses (10k total): Both tanks are alive. No difference.

Boss hits once for 8k (blocked) and misses (8k total): Both tanks are alive. No difference.

Boss hits twice, both blocked for 8k each (16k total): One tank lives with 2k health left, the other tank is dead.

 

This obviously is a very simplified example, and in all honesty both tanks might be undergeared for this fight unless they can guarantee that they will be healed after every hit. But the point is that the only place where the extra health makes a difference is in the last situation, and even then only a little over 16k is what's needed. The rest of the extra health is wasted, because it has NO impact on survivabilty.

 

Therefore a tank gearing up for this fight, assuming he had pro healers, would shoot for a little over 16k health, because much beyond that wouldn't be helpful unless he could get to over 18k (which neither tank can, in this example). The rest might as well go into willpower, because it would do *something*. At worst, the boss dies a little faster, and at best, the extra threat keeps the dps from pulling aggro and screwing up the operation.

[JeremyDale]

 

Ill let the DPS handle the DPS. Ill stick to tanking..

 

What a novel idea!

 

This is the only forum coummunity I've ever seen where there are actually tanks arguing that's it smarter to stack a DPS stat than HP. Pretty amusing stuff.

Edited January 5, 2012 by JeremyDale

[TrevNYC]

What a novel idea!

 

This is the only forum coummunity I've ever seen where there are actually tanks arguing that's it smarter to stack a DPS stat than HP. Pretty amusing stuff.

 

It's only amusing if you take it out of context. The argument isn't that dps stats are more important than HP for a tank. That would be stupid. The argument is that on the actual gear available, the dps gear has a more efficient allocation of stats.

 

Imagine that there was no "force wielder" set of mods/gear. Everything is just resolve, with gear having more willpower than endurance. What Kitru is really saying is that you'd still be able to tank everything, assuming you were at the appropriate gear/skill level for it. The "tank gear", as the argument goes (which I can't yet verify myself) has more endurance than is necessary for the content, and therefore is not as efficient as using the willpower gear, which still has more than enough endurance for everything you want to do.

 

It almost as though some of you think that a piece of gear with (infinity + 10) endurance would be better than a piece with just infinity endurance, because more endurance is better, when in reality infinite health means you won't ever die, so more health beyond that is useless.

 

Let me give you a simple and easy to understand example, and for the sake of argument we will assume these facts:

 

Tank1 has 10k HP and 50% chance to defelect attacks.

 

Tank2 has 5k HP and 50% chance to deflect attacks.

 

 

Ok tank1 fights a boss that hits for 1k damage. That means tank1 can take roughly 20k worth of damage before he needs healing and dies.

 

Now tank2 fights the same boss. Now because he has 5kHP instead of 10K, he can only roughly take 10k worth of damage before he dies. So basically the healer is going to have to heal tank2 twice as much as he did tank1 - because Tank2 can only take 10k worth of damage before he needs healing, where as tank1 can take 20k worth of damage before he needs healing.

 

I know you chose numbers for simplicity, but a major part of understanding Kitru's argument is that we aren't talking about situations where one tank would literally have twice as much health as the other. His exact point is that because the differences *aren't* that large between sets, the extra dps has a marginal advantage over the extra HP.

 

That said, Tank2 wouldn't take twice as much damage, because the boss wouldn't live as long, and dead bosses do zero dps. Your example assumes that tank2 is trading a decrease in his own time to live for absolutely nothing, when in fact it is offset somewhat by a decrease in the *boss's* time to live. Not only does the tank do more dps, but he generates more threat, which allows the dps to do more dps without ganking aggro.

 

That last point leads to an important side note: If tanks stack endurance as they gear up, they are at risk of losing threat generation. Remember that all of the dps is gearing up with you, and they are only getting dps stats. Their threat generation will scale much faster than yours, which means that the better your gear gets, the worse you are at holding threat from similarly geared people.

 

One thing I find amusing is that in this thread tanks will say, "if no one is ganking aggro, why do I need more threat?" and that's a valid argument. But, for some reason, the mirror argument, "if my healers aren't having problems keeping me alive, why do I need more health?" is viewed as heresy. Curious.

Edited January 5, 2012 by TrevNYC

[Selestian]

Copying this from another thread...:

 

More health means you live longer. Healers don't always have focus to cast, get stunned or CC'd. Having more health keeps you up while they resolve that. Willpower? Does nothing but a minor increase in dps with force abilities.

 

And for the record, willpower doesn't make you harder to kill, endurance will make it take longer (harder).

 

More health on a class that takes somewhat spikey damage is a good thing.