Mechanis to aquire gear are beyond flawed

[jayfourc]

If 90% of these same players actually played WoW for the last 2 years (and I bet they did), they won't have any rights to complain about grinding.

 

MMOs are getting easier at every passing year... Grind is mostly gone for most ocidental MMOs these days. The same can't be said about oriental ones because this is something they don't mind, over there. It catters their playstyle, actually.

 

Really, MMOs can't be easier than what we have today. How long it takes for you to get max level? How long it takes for you to amass enough money to buy almost anything you want ingame?

 

Things like those, used to be hard... If you were around here when MMOs started to appear on the market, you would know.

 

 

It feels like Bioware is trying to strike a balance between accessibility (significantly less grind) and end-game saturation, which I think is a great concept, albeit clunky in implementation. Taking the random rolls out of the bags in the current scheme would mean every level 50 can be fully geared in about a week, which some people might actually like, but that's a different discussion. Making the commendation requirements higher pulls you directionally away from what will satisfy the primary revenue drivers (who are, let's face it, casual gamers who abhor grind), which is counter to the general trend of the genre and not something you can really argue against since you're not paying some nonprofit for the chance to swing a lightsaber at other people's online personas.

 

Personally I think PVP rewards should be skill, not grind or grind+luck related, and would welcome a ratings based system. Even if the rewards don't result in significantly better gear, some recognition, like titles, aesthetically different armor/weapons, nameplate differentation, etc. would suffice. Because, after all, don't we all just want everyone else to know how good we are at PVP?

 

Oh yeah persistent combat logs. Please. Seeing how consistently I faceroll that one Marauder with the stupid name makes me happy.

Edited December 26, 2011 by jayfourc

[Deriver]

Don't forget you get lose al yuo pvp match and still get tier 2 token in pvp. In operation you have to kill the boss and hard mode is not so eazy. You can only kill those boss 1 time per week. In pvp you can gueue solo at anytime. In 2 day of pvp im almost full epic tier 2 (rating 136)

 

I can understand their reasoning about RNG, really do, but I'm sure most of them would also complain about it, if they removed the RNG and plain increased the grind to compensate for it.

[Jest]

The point is: 'optimal' is a matter of opinion. Like I said, if they remove the RNG part and just increased the badged needed for each item, there would also be whiners and also people saying it's not optimal, like you did.

 

In the end, what they all want is to get everything as fast as possible. I'm sure if the OP had better luck, he wouldn't be complaining on the forums right now and would be in love with the system.

 

Optimal is not a matter of opinion, by definition.

 

Having a Grind AND RNG is redundant for Timesink. That's a fact. It's not even an efficient format FOR a timesink given that you get bags through Dailies as well as through Grinding.

 

All it does is provide the possibility for Frustration beyond what is necessary. The system should be either RNG or Grind. Not both.

[Nharet]

100% agree. Out of 15 bags I now have 3 trinkets. This is a grind fest. If I liked grinding I would play WoW.

 

RNG in PVP gearing is unfun.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Nharet

[Deriver]

What in any way shape or form makes a complete lottery system ON TOP of arbitrary grinding compelling, challenging, or interesting?

 

The challenge comes from PvP. We want to PvP. The gear is just extra hoops players have to jump through to do what they find fun. There is no possible way you can defend the legitimacy of the current system. It's designed to waste our time, plain and simple.

 

Taking in consideration the fact that it IS a timesink and all kinds of timesinks are exactly designed for that, to waste our time, I failed to see your point with that statement of yours.

 

Like I said, if they removed the RNG part, they would simply increase the badges needed, so the timesink would still be there. They know the chances for the actual drops. A simple math could easly make them remove the RNG and still keep you away from your prizes, for exactly the same time.

[harkain]

so wait because pvp players now have to suffer through rng change of loot it is now unfair ?

 

seriously op what a joke you are, if you ever want to get rid of the welfare epic stamp on pvp and pvpers then rng suck is something needed.

[Jest]

Is it not exactly the same as doing Operations? Obtaing gear through operations could even be considered harder. You have to do operations over and over with only a random chance you will get the items you want.

 

Not saying the system for PvE and PvP should be the same, but to say it is easier to get the items through PvE is absurd, considering it is a lot easier to queue for a warzone than it is to get a team together to run an operation.

 

It is easier to get the gear through Ops as once you learn the Op, it's a matter of going through the motions. The nature of PvP means every encounter is inherently different. So the actual Grinding of the Tokens is much more tedious regardless of your personal knowledge or skill.

 

You also don't HAVE to grind Ops in the same sense that you HAVE to grind Warzones and World PvP. The running of an Op repeatedly to get a drop is frustrating as well but it's not the same time sink as grinding the PvP elements.

[Deshie]

So many spoiled WoW players in this game...

 

What this has to do with WoW I really dont know. I find it funny how all of you dislike WoW like it was cancer yet I bet all you played it until recently. WoW is the market leader in MMO genre. WoW has it's ups and downs and it clearly way more developed than TOR. But I guess because your fanboyism you have to compare it WoW. Those who dont prefer the WoW PvP gearing system to TOR are just plain out right stupid to say the least.

 

"OMGOMASN MEN THEY MUST BE SO BAD LIKE LOLP TO LIKE WOW. LOOK AT ME I'M SOME 40 YEAR OLD TRYING TO BE COOOLZ BY PLAYING STAR WARZZ. I THINK STAR WARZZ IS BETTER THAN EVERY MMO EVER MADE MEN. I DRIBBLE ON MY KEYBOARD CAUSE LUL IT SUCH AN AMAZING WAY TO GET GEAR IT'S SO RANDOMZ LUL IT TOTALLY MAKEZ IT FUN"

 

Keep dribbling on your keyboards. I'm going to laugh when it goes F2P.

[Delphic]

@OP: you called the current system "unfair", "completely random" and a "PITA".

 

It isn't unfair. It would be unfair if I had a better chance of acquiring gear than you because of who I am, where I live or how much I pay BioWare. That's not the case (or at least it seems a safe assumption that that's not the case). The system is fair.

 

It also isn't completely random (I'd argue) for centurion and champion gear, because the tokens put a ceiling on how many bags of the higher tier you have to collect to complete the lower tier.

 

Finally, if it's a PITA for you, the only sensible advice IMO is to get used to it. You won't see randomised rewards disappear from mmos any time soon, because they work so damned well. The best proof that this system is extremely good at motivating'/retaining players is the army of "old-school" mmo players, who post on forums like this to defend that system to the death.

[Jest]

Taking in consideration the fact that it IS a timesink and all kinds of timesinks are exactly designed for that, to waste our time, I failed to see your point with that statement of yours.

 

Like I said, if they removed the RNG part, they would simply increase the badges needed, so the timesink would still be there. They know the chances for the actual drops. A simple math could easly make them remove the RNG and still keep you away from your prizes, for exactly the same time.

 

The difference is the effect it has on the player psychologically.

 

Take 2 children of the same age and upbringing on Christmas.

 

Child A gets 10 presents. Each filled with a toy.

 

Child B gets 20 presents. Only 10 presents are filled with a toy.

 

Child B will be disappointed while Child A is happy. They both receive the same amount of gifts overall but having received an empty package is mentally defeating. It's not conducive to a happy player base.

[Kebabz]

Wouw after reading this thread I have found new information.

 

Effort = Buying a lottery ticket.

 

I better start watching those jersey shore and other reality shows, clearly there are a lot of important knowledge that I have missed.

[panicishere]

Every item you get from a drop is random chance, shall we pick that apart too? I mean really, random chance is almost always how it works.

[panicishere]

The difference is the effect it has on the player psychologically.

 

Take 2 children of the same age and upbringing on Christmas.

 

Child A gets 10 presents. Each filled with a toy.

 

Child B gets 20 presents. Only 10 presents are filled with a toy.

 

Child B will be disappointed while Child A is happy. They both receive the same amount of gifts overall but having received an empty package is mentally defeating. It's not conducive to a happy player base.

 

Alright, well if you wanted to fix this, say there is a 50% chance of getting a token, just make it twice as hard to get a token at all. There no random chance.

 

Say you have a 1/100 chance of getting a chest piece token, make it so you have to have 100 tokens to get the chestpiece. Of course these things are hypothetical, but half of all mmo things come from random chance. I mean making it entirely standardized as to when you get things for one thing would just cause people to want it for everything.

 

Oh hey, I need to kill this boss 6 more times to get the armor it drops, as opposed to it randomly dropping on a 1/6 chance. You might not get it in 100 attempts, but you could in the first. That is part and parcel of mmo rewards for effort. Changing this concept for specifically pvp armor doesn't make sense.

[Neverknowenuff]

Personally I find it a bit funny because as a Huge PvE player we have been dealing with the RNG monster for ages killing the same boss again and again and still not getting that 1 piece we needed to finish off the set.

 

Personally I feel there is nothing wrong with random chance as long as there is a backup to stop someone going forever not getting that 1 piece of gear they needed. 1 System I've seen which could work really well was found in Plants Vs Zombies.

 

People have been complainning they cant finish there zen gardens because we need 1 or 2 plants so you can now buy box'es with 25%-50%-100% chance of getting somthing you need.

 

This could easy work with bags they come alot more greater cost so you need 5times the amount of tokens e.c.t. but then that comes with a 100% chance of getting what you need.

 

Another option avaible is having an another currency that you get alot less of what can be used to buy a item straight out right. Personally these will just lead more players to want it just brought straight out like in other MMO's. I think being as PvE has been dealing with the RnG monster I see no reason why it a huge deal to PvP but there need to a be a fail safe in place that means your not spending 3months trying to get your last piece.

[Hydrott]

Welcome to the game where you don't have pruple gear served on plate with gratitude letter for reaching max level.

 

Actually, being a nabcake is more rewarding in SWTOR then in ANY other MMO ever made.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Hydrott

[Neverknowenuff]

You also don't HAVE to grind Ops in the same sense that you HAVE to grind Warzones and World PvP. The running of an Op repeatedly to get a drop is frustrating as well but it's not the same time sink as grinding the PvP elements.

 

I dont understand why you are "Grinding" That makes no sence. For PvE player you play PvE content to down the boss. The first time is the sweetest once you done it once or twice its on farm mode and the appeal is lost. We PvE for the first kill then we need the loot for the next set of PvE encounter we come across.

 

In PvP you PvP cause u want to fight people. It isnt grinding when your doing your content. You should be enjoying PvP and not thinking of it as a grind. We have to grind PvE content for the next tier you dont need to be grinding PvP content.

[sunsu]

Taking in consideration the fact that it IS a timesink and all kinds of timesinks are exactly designed for that, to waste our time, I failed to see your point with that statement of yours.

 

Like I said, if they removed the RNG part, they would simply increase the badges needed, so the timesink would still be there. They know the chances for the actual drops. A simple math could easly make them remove the RNG and still keep you away from your prizes, for exactly the same time.

 

Do you really need a timesink, after you are max lvl in bf3 or mw2 people dont quit. Why cant we combine fps style pvp with mmo style pvp.

 

Quick respawns, gear unlocks with leveling, and you could put currency system to this for extras. 90% I think want a good battle, close games are the most fun imo.

[Z_Wisdom]

I'm not sure everyone understood they were able to buy the bags before level 50. Also stocking up on the comms to buy them before reaching 50 was/is SUPER easy. Seein people ***** about this leads me to believe that they either tried to hit 50 as fast as they could and didn't read up on any of this stuff or are plain dumb and mad at themselves for not listening to anyone who was preaching this for the first 5 days of launch.

 

Oh and between 20 and 40 if you casually pvp you should have PLENTY o comms for the bags. Not to mention having enough to buy all the extra stuff you want.

 

I guess people don't think outside the box and didn't "get it" when they looked at it.

[Hydrott]

At least in PvE youre forced to go through elite mobs before you even get the chance to roll for youre gear (which in some cases is no small feet).

In PvP you can AFK every match and still get the best possible gear set. This form of progression is the definition of ''welfare''.

[Hydrott]

I'm not sure everyone understood they were able to buy the bags before level 50. Also stocking up on the comms to buy them before reaching 50 was/is SUPER easy. Seein people ***** about this leads me to believe that they either tried to hit 50 as fast as they could and didn't read up on any of this stuff or are plain dumb and mad at themselves for not listening to anyone who was preaching this for the first 5 days of launch.

 

Oh and between 20 and 40 if you casually pvp you should have PLENTY o comms for the bags. Not to mention having enough to buy all the extra stuff you want.

 

I guess people don't think outside the box and didn't "get it" when they looked at it.

 

You arent allowed to have more then 1 of those bags in youre inventory/bank. Not to mention the cap for valor points is just 1k.

[Z_Wisdom]

Yes you can only have one of those bags at a time but you can stock up on the comms while you are leveling up. Which gives you a head start on that for when you actually hit 50. And let's just say that your cap is 1k wz comms and 1k merc comms. Well now that's a total of 6 bags worth of comms that you "earned" while you were leveling and not havin to get at 50. That's a pretty solid start in my book for when you get to 50.

 

And getting that many comms is really easy assuming that you don't just go in and afk thru the WZ which is what some people are probably doing. I'm sure some of those people are complaining because they are getting less then 70comms per game due to lack of effort.

 

I do think there should be more rewards for world pvp to assist in bag generation. (just a thought on how to make I a little more interesting and meaningful for world PVP).

[Deriver]

What this has to do with WoW I really dont know. I find it funny how all of you dislike WoW like it was cancer yet I bet all you played it until recently. WoW is the market leader in MMO genre. WoW has it's ups and downs and it clearly way more developed than TOR. But I guess because your fanboyism you have to compare it WoW. Those who dont prefer the WoW PvP gearing system to TOR are just plain out right stupid to say the least.

 

"OMGOMASN MEN THEY MUST BE SO BAD LIKE LOLP TO LIKE WOW. LOOK AT ME I'M SOME 40 YEAR OLD TRYING TO BE COOOLZ BY PLAYING STAR WARZZ. I THINK STAR WARZZ IS BETTER THAN EVERY MMO EVER MADE MEN. I DRIBBLE ON MY KEYBOARD CAUSE LUL IT SUCH AN AMAZING WAY TO GET GEAR IT'S SO RANDOMZ LUL IT TOTALLY MAKEZ IT FUN"

 

Keep dribbling on your keyboards. I'm going to laugh when it goes F2P.

 

Before I comment your post I have to say that you made me laugh when you criticised me for saying the complainers were WoW players and right after that you then compared this game pvp gearing system with WoW's. Thank you =)

 

 

---

 

First of all: I've played wow since beta and I DO like it. What I do NOT like is the way it changed the playerbase mentality about effort and reward. The fact that I can play WoW and ALSO come here and have fun means that I can adapt to different playing rules. The fact that you or others can't, means you or others want the game to adapt to your or their playing rules.

 

Have saying that, WoW was the first game to bring this badge mechanics into play, as far as I remember at least. I may be wrong, but even if I actually am, still, it was WoW that brought it to the masses. Also it is all well known that WoW is getting easier and easier every passing year and people are getting used to it. The problem is: now, they seem to want every other game to be like it, as easy as it gets.

 

So my question is: why just don't stay on WoW? Why come here and start complaning about just everything like it was the worst game ever created by human hands? All I see around is whining, and if I take my time to go through the senseless crying, all I see is exactly the same: people complaining because this game is not what they want it to be.

 

So please, if you dont like it's core mechanics, LEAVE! Its ok to make constructive posts about minor details and suggestions. It's not ok to flood the forums with core things that you dislike and *DEMAND* changed. It's not just about the RNG on loot bags... This is just one of many.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Deriver

[Selixx]

It is not unreasonable to ask for a system that isn't random, it has been done before. I'd certainly like to see a rated/ranked system for warzones as a means to get the top end PvP gear. I'm sure people can come up with ideas for world pvp.

 

I'd like to see a system where the top-end pvp gear is really easy to get, and places everyone on the same level. Giving some people advantages over others is stupid. I also dislike RNG as a system because of a game called Aion. I ran away from Aion to get away from RNG, because the system is completely unfair. It's retarded when one player puts in more effort then another for a smaller payout.

[Z_Wisdom]

Since this is probably a good spot for this I'm reposting this link in here because I couldn't find the original post to link too.

 

http://guard-this.com/2011/12/24/pvp-gear-guide/

Edited December 26, 2011 by Z_Wisdom

[Deriver]

I'd like to see a system where the top-end pvp gear is really easy to get, and places everyone on the same level. Giving some people advantages over others is stupid. I also dislike RNG as a system because of a game called Aion. I ran away from Aion to get away from RNG, because the system is completely unfair. It's retarded when one player puts in more effort then another for a smaller payout.

 

What you ask has a name: Guild Wars