Another gaming advice PC.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Try using some common sense here yourself.

 

First, every fan in his case that is affecting airflow by his GPU and motherboard is set for exhaust. The two fans on the HDD cages do not blow much air into the case when set sideways on that particular case. The sides of the cages are nearly solid, which funnels the air through them and the case has vents on both sides corresponding to the fans. Any air intake from those fans is just passed from one side straight out the other side without passing any components except the HDDs.

 

False, with the amount of exhaust being met and generating almost negative pressure in the case then air must be coming in somewhere to compensate. That is going to be from the intake fans and possibly even the vents themselves if there was enough negative pressure being generated by the vent fans ( unlikely but those 2 blowers on the GPU's will put out a fair volume of air ). The air isn't just come in the intake and going straight out the vents, there would be no air then incoming to be exhausted...

 

With all of the other fans set for exhaust, his only 2 intake areas that are unrestricted are the front of the case, and the slot covers. The VAST majority of that air coming in is going to be DIVERTED immediately in the direction of the exhausting fans, out the top and bottom of the case. His whole setup is directing airflow in the case from the front and then out the top and bottom. Without forcing the air into the GPUs or going with a more traditional front to back arrangement, the air going through the GPUs is cycling in the pocket between them and the power supply with very little exchange with outside air.

 

The GPU's dont need air forced on to them, those blowers go hard and will be bringing in the air themselves. They are almost certainly exhausting far more volume at load than the other exhaust fans and will be having no problems what so ever in getting fresh air from the front of the case ( where else will it be coming from? They exhaust air externally so they aren't recycling the air back into themselves ).

Maybe you don't own a card that exhausts in this manner? Older style cards just didn't exhaust like this but most modern cards ... put your hand behind the exhaust when it's at load and they are basically mini fan heaters at the back of the case ( I only run 1, I imagine 2 would really be pushing and pulling some air through the case ).

 

 

Really, I know what I'm talking about, my GPU is OC'd almost 20% (1150 core from 950 core), my octacoreCPU is OC'd 20% on all cores (4.8 GHz from 4.0GHz). The GPU never hits over 70C with the fans only at 40% (and still nice and quiet), the cpu never gets over 60C on the package although the socket will push over 80C under small FFTs but that's expected. I can run a full system stress test overnight and sleep through it, because it stays under spec and quiet. And my entire system is on air, CM Hyper EVO 212 with Gelid fans in push-pull, Phanteks Enthoo Primo with 9, 140mm fans, 6 intake and 3 exhaust. I know a bit about keeping an OC'd system cooled on air.

 

PS. oh and my computer is in a room on the south side of my house, it's 80-85 F during the day even with the central air on full blast.

 

You know a lot of bloat when it comes to keeping a system cooled on air.

Hardware specific but 80 on Prime seems pretty high ( borderline fry your chip but I guess it depends on the chip ), considering I run an old Xigmatek cooler/tower heatsink on my CPU that's going from 3.5 to 4.3 and the only case cooling I have is a rear exhaust fan and the blower off my gpu and my temps are about 70-72 max in the summer ( 25C average temp ) and about 60-65C in the winter ( 10C average temp ) whilst stability testing in prime.

I had a front intake but the magnet stuffed out on it and found temps weren't moving much without it so didn't bother replacing it.

 

GPU temps do go to about 80-85 @ 65% which seems high but you can google the r9 290 AMD recommended safe temps. I've not altered my fan profile to run it higher and reduce the temps because I got stable results at this. That's 1115 up from 950.

 

I guess it does help that I have a more or less open top PC with dust shielding material.

 

So really all your above post has done is prove my point that you really don't need to waste a ton on cooling to keep temps down because your temps aren't really all that cool that one would think you would get with what you're running.

[Icykill_]

False, with the amount of exhaust being met and generating almost negative pressure in the case then air must be coming in somewhere to compensate. That is going to be from the intake fans and possibly even the vents themselves if there was enough negative pressure being generated by the vent fans ( unlikely but those 2 blowers on the GPU's will put out a fair volume of air ). The air isn't just come in the intake and going straight out the vents, there would be no air then incoming to be exhausted...

 

while the theory is sound... It doesn't work in practice most of the time... A lot of vendor customised GPU cooling rarely pull much air in or exhaust it out... Have a look at the actual cards.. most are open vapor cooling with 2-3 fans... They blow directly on the cards from air already inside the case and it unfortunately mostly exhausts out the top... Not the vents

 

The GPU's dont need air forced on to them, those blowers go hard and will be bringing in the air themselves. They are almost certainly exhausting far more volume at load than the other exhaust fans and will be having no problems what so ever in getting fresh air from the front of the case ( where else will it be coming from? They exhaust air externally so they aren't recycling the air back into themselves ).

Maybe you don't own a card that exhausts in this manner? Older style cards just didn't exhaust like this but most modern cards ... put your hand behind the exhaust when it's at load and they are basically mini fan heaters at the back of the case ( I only run 1, I imagine 2 would really be pushing and pulling some air through the case ).

 

 

As I said up above... The blowers "push" most of the air from inside the case onto the cards... Sure they pull in a bit... But that cool air is negated by the already hot air in the case messing with it... As most of the air is from inside the case.. This pulled in air is pretty useless...

While they do have a lot of heat come out the back of the PC... This is a very small percentage of the air they exhaust in the case... So not not much in the scheme of things

 

You know a lot of bloat when it comes to keeping a system cooled on air.

Hardware specific but 80 on Prime seems pretty high ( borderline fry your chip but I guess it depends on the chip ), considering I run an old Xigmatek cooler/tower heatsink on my CPU that's going from 3.5 to 4.3 and the only case cooling I have is a rear exhaust fan and the blower off my gpu and my temps are about 70-72 max in the summer ( 25C average temp ) and about 60-65C in the winter ( 10C average temp ) whilst stability testing in prime.

I had a front intake but the magnet stuffed out on it and found temps weren't moving much without it so didn't bother replacing it.

 

from professional opinion, you should replace that fan... You are shorting the life span on every piece of hardware in your system

 

GPU temps do go to about 80-85 @ 65% which seems high but you can google the r9 290 AMD recommended safe temps. I've not altered my fan profile to run it higher and reduce the temps because I got stable results at this. That's 1115 up from 950.

 

your temps are way to high for everyday use... Even though AMD say they are safe (that because they use generic coolers).. They are too high... Adding that fan should help... Also I have sold Xigamtek, I was actually working with the Australian distributor when Xigamtek first started out... We helped them with their first case designs and I still have a preproduction case laying around... Air flow isn't optimised in them and unless you have one of the newest, I don't believe you can customise enough in the case to optimise the air flow... It's good that youre not over heating too much... But your system is running hotter than it should

 

I guess it does help that I have a more or less open top PC with dust shielding material.

 

So really all your above post has done is prove my point that you really don't need to waste a ton on cooling to keep temps down because your temps aren't really all that cool that one would think you would get with what you're running.

 

Sure you don't need a tonne of money to optimise cooling... But you do need to understand air flow dynamics... Sometimes you are lucky and it just works out of the box... But a lot of the times there are lots of contributing factors to getting good cooling... Your experience on your PC does not make all your assumptions correct... You should not be advising people on your one off example... It is confusing to those who may think you have a clear understanding of the subject, which sadly you don't... Please stop arguing back and forth with other people who have a bit more knowledge than you

Edited August 6, 2015 by Icykill_

[Icykill_]

Try using some common sense here yourself.

 

First, every fan in his case that is affecting airflow by his GPU and motherboard is set for exhaust. The two fans on the HDD cages do not blow much air into the case when set sideways on that particular case. The sides of the cages are nearly solid, which funnels the air through them and the case has vents on both sides corresponding to the fans. Any air intake from those fans is just passed from one side straight out the other side without passing any components except the HDDs.

 

With all of the other fans set for exhaust, his only 2 intake areas that are unrestricted are the front of the case, and the slot covers. The VAST majority of that air coming in is going to be DIVERTED immediately in the direction of the exhausting fans, out the top and bottom of the case. His whole setup is directing airflow in the case from the front and then out the top and bottom. Without forcing the air into the GPUs or going with a more traditional front to back arrangement, the air going through the GPUs is cycling in the pocket between them and the power supply with very little exchange with outside air.

 

Really, I know what I'm talking about, my GPU is OC'd almost 20% (1150 core from 950 core), my octacoreCPU is OC'd 20% on all cores (4.8 GHz from 4.0GHz). The GPU never hits over 70C with the fans only at 40% (and still nice and quiet), the cpu never gets over 60C on the package although the socket will push over 80C under small FFTs but that's expected. I can run a full system stress test overnight and sleep through it, because it stays under spec and quiet. And my entire system is on air, CM Hyper EVO 212 with Gelid fans in push-pull, Phanteks Enthoo Primo with 9, 140mm fans, 6 intake and 3 exhaust. I know a bit about keeping an OC'd system cooled on air.

 

PS. oh and my computer is in a room on the south side of my house, it's 80-85 F during the day even with the central air on full blast.

 

Extremely good point on the HDD cages and the front fans and the GPU airflow... Nice OCs too... Try lowering you voltage a little and you may see a drop below that 80c.. Unless you've already done that

Edited August 6, 2015 by Icykill_

[Draqsko]

Extremely good point on the HDD cages and the front fans and the GPU airflow... Nice OCs too... Try lowering you voltage a little and you may see a drop below that 80c.. Unless you've already done that

 

It's stable on 80C, and doesn't throttle to 85C, so I think it's just a mis-calibrated sensor. The actual core temps never go under a thermal margin of 5-10C, which is the only thing that matters with AMD. The socket temp is a sensor right outside the breadboard for the CPU between it and the VRM heatsink, so it's literally going to be the hottest place in my computer since it's impossible to get airflow there unless I mod the case and mount a fan above pushing down. But then that will run into the issue of my top exhaust fans.

 

Right now I'm slot restricted because I'm using a PCI SB XFi card, so I can't use one of the x16 slots for my GPU or it blocks the PCI which means it has to go into the top x16 slot. Well the top x16 slot is too close to the VRM heatsink to mount a fan pointing up if there's a card in that slot, it would have no airflow clearance really. Oh if I could, I think I would have this chip on 5 GHz already... on air... cause that is literally the only thing holding me back right now is that socket.

 

As far as the OP's problem, I know exactly what it is because I was going to buy that case but changed my mind when I seen the HDD cages. There is only one acceptable orientation for them, and it's the exact orientation that makes changing HDDs a pain in the arse without disassembling the case. You have to put the fans in the front otherwise the case will not draw in any air except where the DVD drive bays are.

 

The two ideal setups for GPU cooling are either fans mounted on the bottom of the case, intaking from the floor and blowing straight up into the GPUs, or fans mounted on the side panel blowing into the GPUs. If neither of those is an option then you need fans in the front intaking and blowing through the HDD cages and into the GPUs, it's not ideal but it's better than depending on convection currents to exchange air around the GPUs.

 

And if anyone thinks GPUs exhaust air out the back of the case because they have a fancy little grill on the slot cover, you are wrong. It's been years since they were made this way, most of them will just cycle case air by design, just look at the fins on the heatpipes and vapor chambers, nearly all of them are aligned vertically with the card, meaning the exhaust air is going out the top away from the motherboard or out the bottom directly at the motherboard. There is very little front to back air motion since those cooling solutions are generally sealed to airflow front to back.

 

With the OP's setup, those two GPUs have two airflow vortices, one between the top and bottom card, and one between the bottom card and the PSU, there is nothing to force the air out of that vortex pattern and the only way heat is escaping is through convection currents over the tops of the cards. There's not much difference in that setup and no fans at all from the perspective of the GPUs.

[ALaggyGrunt]

On GPUs dumping heat out the back of the case:

 

Good: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487068

Most of the hot air goes out the back, cause there's nowhere else for it to go. A little will escape through that gap around the SLI connectors.

 

Good: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131675

Stick the radiator on a 120mm fan mount and point it out of your case. There won't be anywhere else for the hot air to go.

 

Not very good: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487038

Two GPUs. The hot air from one will go out the back of your case, the hot air from the other will go back into your case.

 

Bad: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121905

Look at the direction of the fins. Your GPU will stay much cooler in a single-card setup, and a good bit of hot air will find its way out the back of your case because of the direction the engineers pointed the fins. Most of it won't, though.

 

Really bad: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487099

Again, the direction of the fins. Air goes straight above the graphics card. This makes for really good single-card cooling performance, but the rest of your parts suffer.

[Draqsko]

*snip*

 

Compare those to the OP's cards: https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t31.0-8/1401624_10151942831896259_1986900409_o.jpg, and you'll see that the OP's cards do not exhaust heat out the back. There's no sealed case around the cooler, and the fins are aligned vertically on the heatpipes and vapor chamber, rather than front to back like all those cards you posted.

 

Only specific cards exhaust out the back, most of them just cycle case air and therefore case air flow is very important in those builds. Unless you like throwing money away on GPUs that have shorter lifetimes because of running hot all the time.

[mpdugas]

I do not understand why the OP has a bottom exhaust fan. That seems self-defeating. Maybe point it out the front? The PSU intake is right next to the CPU exhaust; the PSU is likely to just suck hot CPU exhaust air back in as it attempts to cool itself.

 

That may very well be the source of the shutdowns.

 

It looks like the fans from the side are blowing across the box, into the HD bays. I just don't see much here except a chaotic swirl of air that probably doesn't help the MB components much.

 

The video cards seem to blow their exhaust air into the case, but also draw their air from within the case. Not much cooling going on there.

 

So I see several examples of poor air flow in the OP's case setup.

 

By way of my own setup as an example:

 

I've got an FX9590 and a R9 295X2 in an NZXT case.

 

One 140mm intake on the front, one 140 mm intake on the side over the video card, and the video card radiator exhausting at the top rear side; the CPU is cooled by a Kraken X60, exhausting out the top. One 120 mm intake fan in the case bottom, where the OP has put his CPU radiator.

 

I am very careful with my CPU cooling gasket material. Since its only purpose is to fill in the microscopic scratches in the Kraken cooling plate and the CPU heat sink, so that the finely polished surfaces have no missing contact area, I spread Arctic Silver in a VERY thin layer over the CPU and then tighten the Kraken cooling plate down as permitted by the brackets.

 

Running all eight cores at 100% for rendering, the CPU stabilizes at max 42 degrees C and both GPU cores stabilize at max 53 degrees C in SWTOR at ultra settings.

 

I achieve this using the "Silent" Kraken fan speed setting.

 

Those are decent results, coming from a nearly silent box, considering that these two components are known to be furnaces.

 

I'd recommend that the OP correct the layout problems in the case setup without introducing any new factors into the mix, and then record the results.

Edited August 6, 2015 by mpdugas

[MeNaCe-NZ]

while the theory is sound... It doesn't work in practice most of the time... A lot of vendor customised GPU cooling rarely pull much air in or exhaust it out... Have a look at the actual cards.. most are open vapor cooling with 2-3 fans... They blow directly on the cards from air already inside the case and it unfortunately mostly exhausts out the top... Not the vents

 

Looking at the cards in question I see no reason why they wouldn't vent externally as opposed to internally. The cards look fairly securely enclosed with just the fans exposed and when running at 100% ( what the OP mentioned heh ad them at and was still getting cooling issues which is why I mentioned it would be highly unlikely to be case temps pushing his GPU temps that high at 100% fan speed on those puppies ) should have no issue what so ever pushing all that air out the only external vent on the enclosed part which is the rear vent outside of the case.

 

In saying that you yourself do say you run these cards so exactly why isn't it venting out the rear because looking at a rather detailed breakdown design I have up http://www.overclockers.com/asus-matrix-hd7970-platinum-edition-video-card-review/ - they do look they should be mostly venting out the rare and not back into the case?

 

My r9 290 ( reference too, before the direct cu ii rehashes ) is awesome at venting out the rear but it is a pretty tighly enclosed card.

 

As I said up above... The blowers "push" most of the air from inside the case onto the cards... Sure they pull in a bit... But that cool air is negated by the already hot air in the case messing with it... As most of the air is from inside the case.. This pulled in air is pretty useless...

While they do have a lot of heat come out the back of the PC... This is a very small percentage of the air they exhaust in the case... So not not much in the scheme of things

 

As I also said and no one seems to have answered ( but you should be able to with a similar setup ) ... where is the hot air coming from in this example? The cpu can be more or less ruled out ( assuming of course the bottom vent is clear, that would be given one would think ) I believe. Leaving only the cards themselves which should vent externally ( fans pull air in and push onto the card and if well enclosed leaves the only route out back out the rear as it's the path of least resistance, it shouldn't be going back out through the fan itself as that would be more difficult than going back out the rear ). Add to the that external rear and top venting fans which would be removing any residual heat and there really shouldn't be an issue with the internal temperature.

 

You and others seem to think that unless there is intake fans pointing directly at components then the air around these components just doesn't move and that's simply not the case. The difference in pressure created by any external venting alone should be enough to easily bring in fresh air whilst the old is being vented out.

Infact sometimes having directed intakes from the front to the rear can be a negative feature in that you can then receive more severe hot spots in the bottom rear of the case as it is bringing in air as fast as it is venting and it's directed to where the vents are meaning no negative pressure is allowed to generate and it's basically going in one end and out the other bypassing anything that might reside in the bottom rear area.

With this case this shouldn't exist and the air is pulled from the front to the rear by both the external vents and the cards allowing them all to receive this fresher air from the front.

 

from professional opinion, you should replace that fan... You are shorting the life span on every piece of hardware in your system

 

Well at least you put your opinion down as that, an opinion. However I monitor temps and they are fine ( except the GPU which I'll get to ). I too was rather surprised I didn't see any massive spikes when it went out and thought everything would be operating higher, it flew in the face of common knowledge but when I started to think about it I realised with my open top design the components were having no problems in pulling in fresh air without it needing to be directed - If my cpu were pushing its vented air back into the case as opposed to the top rear external vent I can see how it could be an issue, likewise if my GPU were venting back in to the case.

 

This kind of gets back to my point on venting being the by far more important part and if you have that right then intake is nowhere near as important.

 

your temps are way to high for everyday use... Even though AMD say they are safe (that because they use generic coolers).. They are too high... Adding that fan should help... Also I have sold Xigamtek, I was actually working with the Australian distributor when Xigamtek first started out... We helped them with their first case designs and I still have a preproduction case laying around... Air flow isn't optimised in them and unless you have one of the newest, I don't believe you can customise enough in the case to optimise the air flow... It's good that youre not over heating too much... But your system is running hotter than it should

 

I too at first thought like you and even went as far as to ring ASUS over the claims being made and around warranty issues with these temps etc. but they assured me it was within reference and how AMD were assuring people they were safe to running at which was enough for me to continue using them knowing I would RMA if something went wrong with their assurances.

I had two of them and was using one for a mining comp and I used that other one almost constantly ( noisy f***er ) at load mining and high 80 temps and never had an issue. Sold it to my nephew after I lost the bitcoin craze and he's had no issues since nor have I with my card.

I had my gaming card in my other case too before I got this one when I upgraded my CPU and that had far superior case cooling to my current case yet the temps never really moved from what they are now.

 

So in this instance I think your statement on these temps is wrong. They are well within working parameters it would seem and even in recent research I hardly see anyone needing to RMA these due to high temps etc. Surprising I know but this again shows that not everything is as popular opinion would have us believe.

 

I'm using a Xigmatek achillies 2 ( or something like that ) tower cooler on my CPU with the crossback or something screw on back plate to the rear of the motherboard to give greater contact. It's not the most awesome cooler out but it works a treat for me and I've never had temperature issues once I got my TIM right. I didn't even bother replacing it when I went fmo a 2600K to my 4690K either, still works a treat and keeps 22% overclocked prime cpu temps to around 70 in summer which I'm more than happy with .

 

So no, not a xigmatek case, at work now - not entirely sure which case I've got now but as long as component temps are good

 

Sure you don't need a tonne of money to optimise cooling... But you do need to understand air flow dynamics... Sometimes you are lucky and it just works out of the box... But a lot of the times there are lots of contributing factors to getting good cooling... Your experience on your PC does not make all your assumptions correct... You should not be advising people on your one off example... It is confusing to those who may think you have a clear understanding of the subject, which sadly you don't... Please stop arguing back and forth with other people who have a bit more knowledge than you

 

The arrogance of your reply here is quite astounding. Other than the point where you run the same cards as the OP so can comment on those cards you've rather generalised everything you've said.

 

Your own concept of air movement seems rather flawed yet you have the nerve to try criticise mine? You offer poor advice about the temperatures on my GPU without knowing anything really about how it performs etc. - just that you think it's not viable for real world use yet have the same nerve to later on think that a 80 degree overclock on a CPU is perfectly acceptable?

 

So whilst I'll happily listen to what you have to say about the GPUs in question ( and why they aren't directing air out the rear as you can actually look at one and diagnose it ) I think the rest of your knowledge is no more than mere speculation and opinion.

 

Interesting to note the OP hasn't been back either, be interesting to know if he solved his issues and how he did it. I wonder if it was by adding extreme amounts of extra cooling? I doubt it but maybe they'll come back to let us know how they got on.

 

It's almost funny how this turned into a case/cooling debate like the point of him hitting those temps playing SWTOR ( not 4K ) with 100% fan just must have been air temps in the case, the concept is almost laughable.

Edited August 6, 2015 by MeNaCe-NZ

[jdi_knght]

Everyone else has covered airflow to death. So I will present my own conflicting information by recommending you do this: http://www.performancepsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/oil_based_folding_rig.jpg

 

If the oil gets too hot, just make some french fries. The frozen fries going in will cool down the oil. By the time it heats up again, you will probably be hungry for more french fries anyway. You will not have to worry about air flow at all anymore.

 

You're welcome.

Edited August 6, 2015 by jdi_knght

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Everyone else has covered airflow to death. So I will present my own conflicting information by recommending you do this: http://www.performancepsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/oil_based_folding_rig.jpg

 

If the oil gets too hot, just make some french fries. The frozen fries going in will cool down the oil. By the time it heats up again, you will probably be hungry for more french fries anyway. You will not have to worry about air flow at all anymore.

 

You're welcome.

 

I don't think it will work, the parts might not like being submerged in oil and may not work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Serious.

[Draqsko]

In saying that you yourself do say you run these cards so exactly why isn't it venting out the rear because looking at a rather detailed breakdown design I have up http://www.overclockers.com/asus-matrix-hd7970-platinum-edition-video-card-review/ - they do look they should be mostly venting out the rare and not back into the case?

 

Look at the fins in the cooler on that card. Do they point to the front-back of the card? No, they point to the top-bottom, that's how the air is going to move through that cooler, out the top and bottom, not out the back.

 

Take the cooler off, this is what it looks like: http://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/ASUS_Matrix_HD7970_Platinum_33.jpg. See the fins, top to bottom, the air can't pass through metal so it can't move front to back.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Look at the fins in the cooler on that card. Do they point to the front-back of the card? No, they point to the top-bottom, that's how the air is going to move through that cooler, out the top and bottom, not out the back.

 

Take the cooler off, this is what it looks like: http://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/ASUS_Matrix_HD7970_Platinum_33.jpg. See the fins, top to bottom, the air can't pass through metal so it can't move front to back.

 

Fair point for that card. Now from that point that hot air has only really one place to go and that's up then out those 2 exhausts. Remember it's running at 100% fan speed so that air is really moving and there is nothing blowing across the top of the box case out the rear that would cause the air to effectively become trapped at the bottom.

 

Still all unimportant imo to the original issue. When you look at the specs, the setup, the 100% fan speed, the settings then there is absolutely no way he should be getting these temps running swtor.

 

As I said earlier the only bit I agreed to was an over the top overclock on the cards in which case I can't see any extra case cooling setup is going to help bring those temps down, they needed to be down clocked.

 

I wonder if he hasn't returned means his problem is solved though. We may never know what the issue truly was.

[Icykill_]

Everyone else has covered airflow to death. So I will present my own conflicting information by recommending you do this: http://www.performancepsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/oil_based_folding_rig.jpg

 

If the oil gets too hot, just make some french fries. The frozen fries going in will cool down the oil. By the time it heats up again, you will probably be hungry for more french fries anyway. You will not have to worry about air flow at all anymore.

 

You're welcome.

 

Love it... I always say liquid cooling is better than air

 

I don't think it will work, the parts might not like being submerged in oil and may not work.

 

Serious.

 

Actually as long as it is a good quality mineral oil and you take some time to set it up... The parts don't mind being submerged... Obviously you can't submerge the PSU, optical drive or hard dives... But if you remove fans, shrouds, seal up openings from cables into the PSU... Make sure you have good heatsinks on the CPU, Ram, GPUs and have a way of circulating the oil so that the heat sinks stay cool... The systems work extremely well

The first mineral oil system I saw was at university in 1996 where some of my fellow students submerged the motherboard and components into an esky with oil... The system was then overclocked by 50% stable... That's what got me interested in overclocking and eventually OCing with Liquid Nitrogen...

Companies sprung up in the 2000s offering total immersion mineral oil computers... Have a look at this one from around 2008... http://theawesomer.com/reactor-oil-cooled-pc/5173/

The parts they used for the motherboard, ram, GPU, CPU, are off the shelf with some in house tweaks... They also had a good relationship with their vendors for any RMAs... But generally these were lower than normal due to low heat generation and no moving parts...

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Love it... I always say liquid cooling is better than air

 

ORLY?

 

I recommend to people building or upgrading to use closed loop water cooling these days as it is the same or better performance than Air cooling

 

Because there you said it might actually be the same as air ( or better, but that's still not always ).

 

http://www.maximumpc.com/fish-tank-pc-2014/#page-1 , what do ya know, psu n all, this would be pretty nifty actually and fairly easy build once though the kitsets aren't sold by puget anymore it seems.

[ALaggyGrunt]

I don't think it will work, the parts might not like being submerged in oil and may not work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Serious.

 

Someone tried it on throwaway hardware with distilled water and ended up electroplating everything and shorting it out. Oil doesn't have this issue, but it might grow things. Total immersion cooling is a perfectly legit way to do it: they'd dunk the ludicrously hot components of high-powered RADAR in a sealed case of Freon (or some other refrigerant, now that CFC-based refrigerants are illegal) and use a heat exchanger to get rid of the waste heat, kind of like heat pipes except much more extreme. The refrigerant would boil (taking advantage of the latent heat of vaporization), get into the heat exchanger, condense, and flow back down to boil again.

 

Another thing the OP might try is turning his rig sideways and running it with the side panel off, so instead of recirculating, some of that hot air would leave by convection.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Someone tried it on throwaway hardware with distilled water and ended up electroplating everything and shorting it out. Oil doesn't have this issue, but it might grow things. Total immersion cooling is a perfectly legit way to do it: they'd dunk the ludicrously hot components of high-powered RADAR in a sealed case of Freon (or some other refrigerant, now that CFC-based refrigerants are illegal) and use a heat exchanger to get rid of the waste heat, kind of like heat pipes except much more extreme. The refrigerant would boil (taking advantage of the latent heat of vaporization), get into the heat exchanger, condense, and flow back down to boil again.

 

Another thing the OP might try is turning his rig sideways and running it with the side panel off, so instead of recirculating, some of that hot air would leave by convection.

 

A good point there, I forgot the old days of just taking off your side panels and that was perfectly great for extra cooling for a mild overclock.

[Draqsko]

Fair point for that card. Now from that point that hot air has only really one place to go and that's up then out those 2 exhausts. Remember it's running at 100% fan speed so that air is really moving and there is nothing blowing across the top of the box case out the rear that would cause the air to effectively become trapped at the bottom.

 

Still all unimportant imo to the original issue. When you look at the specs, the setup, the 100% fan speed, the settings then there is absolutely no way he should be getting these temps running swtor.

 

As I said earlier the only bit I agreed to was an over the top overclock on the cards in which case I can't see any extra case cooling setup is going to help bring those temps down, they needed to be down clocked.

 

I wonder if he hasn't returned means his problem is solved though. We may never know what the issue truly was.

 

And that fact is HUGELY important to the OP's issue. Warm air is MORE resistant to heat transfer than cool air is, and that creates a vicious cycle once those coolers start recycling a significant portion of airflow. Heat transfer is determined by the formula q = U * A * delta T, where U is the overall heat transfer coefficient, A is the surface area of the cooler, and delta T is the temperature difference between the air moving through the cooler and the cooler itself. Maximum delta T is at 100 C, which is a 75 delta over most ambient conditions. The coolers are designed with U being on the upper end for air, so about 100 W/m^2*K. So those coolers are designed to transfer 7500 W/m^2 at Tmax.

 

However if the intake air is warmer than ambient, let's say something not out of the range of most OCs, about 40C, if you doubt it gets that warm, stick your hand between two GPUs while they are running in a case with bad airflow, you'll feel the warmth. That's a reduction of 15 delta at Tmax, which is a 20% loss of cooling efficiency at maximum temperature.

 

And it's worse the lower the operating temperature, 70C is merely 4500 W/m^2 for heat transfer if the ambient intake is 25C. But that drops to 3000 W/m^2 for an ambient intake of 40C. So for a small increase of 15C in intake air temperature, you lose 33% of your cooling efficiency and you never get enough back as the delta T increases to compensate for the fact you are trying to cool a hotter part now.

 

So there's your math, trust me, he needs to point those HDD cages so the fans are at the front and blowing back into his case to force cooler air towards those GPU coolers, regardless of other changes. In his setup, with virtually no intake fans and all exhaust fans, incoming air BYPASSES the GPUs because it is being drawn towards the exhaust fans, that's common sense really. Nothing is pushing the air into the GPU area, and everything else is wanting to draw it away. It's going to get hot.

 

 

It also helps to streamline a setup kinda like this:

http://imgur.com/U7SNNXn

http://imgur.com/leYxBkE

http://imgur.com/so9lxDn

 

 

[Draqsko]

A good point there, I forgot the old days of just taking off your side panels and that was perfectly great for extra cooling for a mild overclock.

 

No longer applies: https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/2c8oum/discussion_optimizing_case_airflow_10/

 

From all of these observations we can conclude:

 

•Opening the top front vent (or any vent close to the CPU intake) allows the CPU to get fresh intake air from the top, noticeably improving CPU temps.

 

 

•Removing internal restrictions behind the fan (i.e. drive cages and messy cables) definitely improved airflow.

 

 

•High airflow flow focus fans (such as the Noctua NF-F12 Industrial PPC) are great at refocusing airflow that is ruined by restrictive intakes.

 

 

•Very high CFM fans (such as the Cooler Master JetFlo) are excellent at providing tons of airflow with lots of power (even overpowering the harmful exhaust coming from GPU fans) provided they aren't too intake restricted.

 

 

•Direct, nearby fresh airflow is typically a good thing, as shown by the reverse airflow test for the CPU.

 

 

•Robbing intake air from a component really hurts its performance, as shown by the reverse airflow test for the GPU.

 

•Aftermarket GPU cooling solutions are great for the GPU since they allow lots of airflow over a large GPU heatsink.

•They suck for every other component because they dump hot air everywhere inside the case (especially towards the CPU cooler) and cause airflow conflicts with the intake fans. In something like a high-heat server environment, this would definitely not be allowed since it does more bad than good.

 

Now stop confusing people and get current, removing the side panels only helps if the case has really naffed up airflow, in all other situations removing the top panel and leaving the side panel is best. Please, if you want to truly help people, use modern techniques for modern hardware, not techniques that were relevant 10 years ago but not today.

[Malastare]

Now stop confusing people and get current, removing the side panels only helps if the case has really naffed up airflow, in all other situations removing the top panel and leaving the side panel is best. Please, if you want to truly help people, use modern techniques for modern hardware, not techniques that were relevant 10 years ago but not today.

 

This.

 

If removing the side panel of your PC improves cooling, then you didn't do a good job of setting up the cooling on your PC. A good, modern design for gaming/performance PCs is to set up a mini "wind-tunnel", with fresh air entering and quickly leaving through as simple a path as you can find that passes over/around the hot components.

 

If removing the side panel helps, that means that you're critically deficient either in intake or exhaust flow (usually exhaust).

 

It's worth noting that video cards that exhaust into the case aren't actually bad things. They're only bad when you're ignorant of that fact and the ramifications. I have a GTX 770 that exhausts into a small mATX case, but the temperatures stay low (70C) even during gaming because I set up the airflow to accommodate that. When the case temperature rises, I have a second intake fan that starts up and effectively doubles the intake flow. That pushes most of the heat from the GPU out the back of the case rather than having it get pulled into the CPU cooler.

 

Is it something you'd expect a first-time builder to do? Nope. But even a small amount of reading will show you loads of other builders who do it and show you how.

[SuspectDown]

It's worth noting that video cards that exhaust into the case aren't actually bad things. They're only bad when you're ignorant of that fact and the ramifications.

 

+1. Many top GPU's with excellent non-reference cooling either don't primarily or at all vent their exhaust out of the case.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

And that fact is HUGELY important to the OP's issue. Warm air is MORE resistant to heat transfer than cool air is, and that creates a vicious cycle once those coolers start recycling a significant portion of airflow. Heat transfer is determined by the formula q = U * A * delta T, where U is the overall heat transfer coefficient, A is the surface area of the cooler, and delta T is the temperature difference between the air moving through the cooler and the cooler itself. Maximum delta T is at 100 C, which is a 75 delta over most ambient conditions. The coolers are designed with U being on the upper end for air, so about 100 W/m^2*K. So those coolers are designed to transfer 7500 W/m^2 at Tmax.

 

However if the intake air is warmer than ambient, let's say something not out of the range of most OCs, about 40C, if you doubt it gets that warm, stick your hand between two GPUs while they are running in a case with bad airflow, you'll feel the warmth. That's a reduction of 15 delta at Tmax, which is a 20% loss of cooling efficiency at maximum temperature.

 

And it's worse the lower the operating temperature, 70C is merely 4500 W/m^2 for heat transfer if the ambient intake is 25C. But that drops to 3000 W/m^2 for an ambient intake of 40C. So for a small increase of 15C in intake air temperature, you lose 33% of your cooling efficiency and you never get enough back as the delta T increases to compensate for the fact you are trying to cool a hotter part now.

 

So there's your math, trust me, he needs to point those HDD cages so the fans are at the front and blowing back into his case to force cooler air towards those GPU coolers, regardless of other changes. In his setup, with virtually no intake fans and all exhaust fans, incoming air BYPASSES the GPUs because it is being drawn towards the exhaust fans, that's common sense really. Nothing is pushing the air into the GPU area, and everything else is wanting to draw it away. It's going to get hot.

 

 

It also helps to streamline a setup kinda like this:

http://imgur.com/U7SNNXn

http://imgur.com/leYxBkE

http://imgur.com/so9lxDn

 

 

Your ignoring the entire point I just made. This isn't a cooling discussion per se other than the point I made on intake being far less important than good exhaust since with good and well placed exhaust you don't need the same intake since all you want is cool, fresh air and the exhaust can do the job of directing it .

 

You've not even managed to entirely prove that the air would just be pooling around those cards, the exhaust alone should be enough to pull it out. Hot air naturally rises, it's also being expelled from the cards at a high rate of speed so it's not like it's just sitting there pooling around the card to get recirculated back in. The top exhaust is directed to take air from the bottom back, there is no intake pointed directly here to change this - that hot air rising off those cards is going to be aimed directly at the top exhaust with the rear exhaust giving even more ability to expel the hot air at the top back corner of the case - THIS is where the air is going to pool had there been no exhaust doing so.

 

The intake is still pulling in fresh air and the natural path for this to take will be towards the bottom rear of the case, not directly out the opposing side of the case - this is due to the exhausts creating negative pressure thus the cool air will move to fill this gap ( bottom rear of the case ).

 

NOW Ignoring ALL that - back to the question at hand ...

 

Are you actually saying the temps he is getting on both those cards ( 90-100 lol ) in SWToR at ( also lol ) non 4k resolutions or anything to truly work those cards is due to poor case airflow? Note the GPU fans are at 100% - even in the example on cooling you posted earlier http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2012/02/10/the-big-cooling-investigation/1 didn't get that hot with no cooling at all, just exhaust vents.

Is this what you truly believe because this is what the topic was about and what i refuted you on to begin with?

 

Whilst I don't doubt good cooling is important and have never said so ( I just have differing, real world views on what cooling you actually need and how to go about setting it up, all you are doing is trying to say I'm saying cooling is bad basically which I'm clearly not ) I think it's borderline ludicrous to think case cooling could be giving him those temps on the GPU playing this game ( be interesting to know what his cpu temps were too ).

[MeNaCe-NZ]

No longer applies: https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/2c8oum/discussion_optimizing_case_airflow_10/

 

 

 

Now stop confusing people and get current, removing the side panels only helps if the case has really naffed up airflow, in all other situations removing the top panel and leaving the side panel is best. Please, if you want to truly help people, use modern techniques for modern hardware, not techniques that were relevant 10 years ago but not today.

 

Lol are you serious?

 

You try criticise me on arguing with you when you've started all this trying to imply ( based on the evidence you keep giving that is basically "cooling is important" yup we get that, that's not the argument ) I think cooling isn't important, ignoring the actual question regarding the OP and his temps and if you actually think case cooling could TRULY be responsible for those crazy temps on his setup and now you seem to try have a go at an off hand comment I make about the past of just running cases with their sides off?

 

It was common practice 15+ years ago, was it super awesome and efficient? Of course not, it was just a simple little geeky way to seem cool and look like you knew what you were doing. Mild Overclocks back then didn't really generate stuff all extra heat comparative to these days ( and depending on the CPU in question of course ) and often you could get a good 10-15% out of the stock cooler. Maybe I should have been more clear on my nostalgic reminiscing? You seem to think I am saying everyone should take their side panel off and that would be awesome cooling these days heh or even that the old days was the best way of doing things.

 

Did I really say that or are you just picking and choose what you reply to and trying to turn things around into an argument they are not?

 

If you want to argue for the fun of it then sweet as, go and finish off the other ones you started in other threads where you selectively chose to stop posting when called out for evidence on your awesome WZ fps or your ownage userbench performance that you were implying is just as good if not better than most top end intel setups.