Arena won't be implemented with data supporting

[Ghingis]

The work of implementing arenas really is not that difficult since the idea is already there so the time investment is not as big. This because its not a new idea.

 

You also have to think about the amount of players that quit WoW because of bad PvP, now trying this game out as a replacer, hopefully to find some good endgame PvP content.

 

The idea around arenas and keeping it floating would be less effort then to, for example, make a new WZ.

 

I mean, at the end of the day it doesnt even matter because im sure BW already has a plan, all I know is that they will lose quite alot of people if they dont sort out a good PvP system. Because pretty much every game nowadays gets boring because of the lack of competitive play, since its more and more demanded.

[Ghingis]

Whatever. If we have arena, then nobody who plays arena (because they do it just to get the great gear to stomp non-arena players) can play BG with that gear. I don't want another tier of PvP gear for something that is so blatantly game ruining as arena.

 

And yeah, you played TBC pvp. Which was a pale specter of the vanilla pvp. The ranks were the way to go.

 

This is just the general response of someone who has absolutely no clue about competitive play, and what most top-end PvP players want from doing arenas.

 

If I could choose, I want the same gear for arenas as for BG's, because then it would make it fair for everyone. Ontop of this I could prove for you people who dont seem to understand, that its not about gear. 99% of the people who whined about this in WoW, would get stomped by me regardless of gear.

 

It was not mainly a gear issue in WoW aslong as there was only PvP gear, and not PvE. One tier of gear did not make THAT much of a difference, as you make it out to be.

 

Although as I said, rather just have a few tiers attainable by people playing both BG's and arenas.

[Maggok]

I personally can't stand arenas based upon my experience in WoW.

 

It isn't as simple to say "If you don't like them, don't participate." because their very existence in your game completely dominates game design and class balance in order to accommodate the minority of players who do participate.

 

Put simply, with objective based group PvP (like the current Warzones), you don't need to divert time, energy and resources into balancing every single Advanced Class to reach some magical, unattainable equilibrium. With Arenas and the rock/paper/scissors nature of team compositions, you do. If you don't, then the flavor of the month teams become easily apparent, and your entire Arena system becomes flooded with them. The only solution is to nerf and tweak those respective classes until other compositions become competitive, or until a new FoTM team is discovered shortly after, and then the cycle begins all over again.

 

The problem with this is that these class changes affect 100% of the players playing that class, and not just the fraction of players participating in Arenas. Now, if your game was designed from the ground up to be a competitive PvP e-sport, fine. MMOs aren't that game, and this one certainly isn't.

 

By keeping the PvP focus in SW:TOR based on Warzones and open world experiences like Illum, BioWare is dodging a huge bullet. They can now let PvE drive game and class design without having to give equal billing to PvP, without much of a downside, if any.

 

 

 

TL;DR - It is much easier (and less detrimental to the game as a whole) to design PvP around 8v8 Warzones than it is to try to center all your design around Arenas with much smaller team compositions (which is inevitable if you try to make them truly competitive and especially if they reward BiS gear). The smaller the team size you balance around, the tougher and worse off you are. That is why WoW has all but abandoned 2v2s.

 

Arena play can be fun and rewarding, but only so long as it is kept as a side game that doesn't reward BiS gear. That is the hole "that other game" dug for themselves when they implemented their Arenas, and it is one they've been trying to dig themselves out of for years now.

 

I'd rather do without them entirely than go down that road again.

[Bejita]

the old glory days were open pvp fights in vanilla WoW, arena was and will always be a stupid dueling spectator event that was trying to be a E sport untill SC 2 came out now That SC2 is out arenas can go to the grave

[Maggok]

 

To argue that is to say Arena isn't still successful, and to say League of Legends isn't successful.

 

Hell Huttball is just a example of the idea's they are bringing to the table, more stuff is coming make no mistake.

 

 

You are essentially making my point about what works in a MMO and what does not.

 

League of Legends is not a MMO. It is designed from the ground up to deliver the PvP experience it provides, and does so exceptionally well. It isn't trying to be anything else other than what it is, and because of that, it succeeds.

 

Huttball works exceptionally well because it delivers a competitive, objective based PvP experience for 8v8 teams. This is vastly different, and far more compatible with a PvE based MMO, than single elimination death matches centered around 2v2 or 3v3.

 

I sincerely hope that BioWare continues to center their end game PvP around competitive, objective based design like Huttball instead of an Arena system.

[Ghingis]

I personally can't stand arenas based upon my experience in WoW.

 

It isn't as simple to say "If you don't like them, don't participate." because their very existence in your game completely dominates game design and class balance in order to accommodate the minority of players who do participate.

 

Put simply, with objective based group PvP (like the current Warzones), you don't need to divert time, energy and resources into balancing every single Advanced Class to reach some magical, unattainable equilibrium. With Arenas and the rock/paper/scissors nature of team compositions, you do. If you don't, then the flavor of the month teams become easily apparent, and your entire Arena system becomes flooded with them. The only solution is to nerf and tweak those respective classes until other compositions become competitive, or until a new FoTM team is discovered shortly after, and then the cycle begins all over again.

 

The problem with this is that these class changes affect 100% of the players playing that class, and not just the fraction of players participating in Arenas. Now, if your game was designed from the ground up to be a competitive PvP e-sport, fine. MMOs aren't that game, and this one certainly isn't.

 

By keeping the PvP focus in SW:TOR based on Warzones and open world experiences like Illum, BioWare is dodging a huge bullet. They can now let PvE drive game and class design without having to give equal billing to PvP, without much of a downside, if any.

 

 

 

TL;DR - It is much easier (and less detrimental to the game as a whole) to design PvP around 8v8 Warzones than it is to try to center all your design around Arenas with much smaller team compositions (which is inevitable if you try to make them truly competitive and especially if they reward BiS gear). The smaller the team size you balance around, the tougher and worse off you are. That is why WoW has all but abandoned 2v2s.

 

Arena play can be fun and rewarding, but only so long as it is kept as a side game that doesn't reward BiS gear. That is the hole "that other game" dug for themselves when they implemented their Arenas, and it is one they've been trying to dig themselves out of for years now.

 

I'd rather do without them entirely than go down that road again.

 

So you are one of the people thinking Blizzard actually balanced the game around Arenas?

 

You people are so deluded its not even funny. You do not now **** about anything, but yet to decide to comment about it, make sense?

 

You think there will be less whining about PvP just because they dont implement arenas? Just look at these forums already after this short time. People are already complaining about class imbalances before even knowing the name of the classes.

 

Arenas was not the reason why the balancing in WoW became bad, or why PvP became unbalanced, it was the developers and game designers fault, its as easy at that really.

If you played the game at any decent level whatsoever you would know this.

[Aghar]

The only reason it's not financially prudent is because all the MMOs are doing it wrong. They aren't embracing cyber sports and the niche there is and the money people are willing to spend for competative video games.

 

Also, before any one says something stupid like there's no money in competative video games I'm going to simply point you to Starcraft 2, or the MOBA scene right now.

 

 

There is not one MMO that has embraced video games wholely as a spectator sport. Once one does, if the game is well made I promise you they'll make oodles of cash.

 

I'm not even talking about only arenas (although that is certainly an avenue I'd explore if I was a developer) as a spectator sport. Huttball could EASILY have ladders, and teams, and spectator UIs and tournaments with real yields.

 

Rated battle grounds would be another way they could go. All of these would be great ways an MMO could break into the competative gaming scene but they aren't doing it, because they're short sighted.

 

Mark my words, one day some developers will wise up and hit bank. It would be really cool if that was this game.

 

Actually guild wars has embraced competitive pvp as a spectator sport, you can que up and observe any high level match from the moment you exit searing. And yet guild wars 2 has focused more on the PVE element this go around, and more of an RVR then arena style play. Pretty strange huh, if arena is as popular as you say it was, wouldn't they be moving twords it instead of away from it? BTW MOBA and Starcraft 2 are games that are designed around competitve play, they do well at it because that is all they can do. They have a focus. Tacking on Arena style play to a game that is not 100% based on it, fails miserably, blizzard learned their lesson, and went to a rated BG system.

[Aghar]

So you are one of the people thinking Blizzard actually balanced the game around Arenas?

 

You people are so deluded its not even funny. You do not now **** about anything, but yet to decide to comment about it, make sense?

 

You think there will be less whining about PvP just because they dont implement arenas? Just look at these forums already after this short time. People are already complaining about class imbalances before even knowing the name of the classes.

 

Arenas was not the reason why the balancing in WoW became bad, or why PvP became unbalanced, it was the developers and game designers fault, its as easy at that really.

If you played the game at any decent level whatsoever you would know this.

 

Considering even blizz devs came out and said they were balancing skills in pvp around 3v3 I think you are just blowing smoke out your *** to defend a terrible game type. If you want to play deathmatch TF2, League of Legends, and WoW are all that way ----> I will take my objective based pvp and enjoy it

[Ghingis]

Actually guild wars has embraced competitive pvp as a spectator sport, you can que up and observe any high level match from the moment you exit searing. And yet guild wars 2 has focused more on the PVE element this go around, and more of an RVR then arena style play. Pretty strange huh, if arena is as popular as you say it was, wouldn't they be moving twords it instead of away from it? BTW MOBA and Starcraft 2 are games that are designed around competitve play, they do well at it because that is all they can do. They have a focus. Tacking on Arena style play to a game that is not 100% based on it, fails miserably, blizzard learned their lesson, and went to a rated BG system.

 

Although rated BG's was way worse and less appreciated then arenas was. Its just that BG's in general appeal to the casual player base and less hardcore players, whilst arenas are way more competitive.

 

Arenas were just fine as an e-sport back in the days, its just throughout WotlK and Cataclysm the developers have been smoking some crazy **** and just flipped everything in the wrong direction.

[Ghingis]

Considering even blizz devs came out and said they were balancing skills in pvp around 3v3 I think you are just blowing smoke out your *** to defend a terrible game type. If you want to play deathmatch TF2, League of Legends, and WoW are all that way ----> I will take my objective based pvp and enjoy it

 

Yea, they first said that, then they realized they were horrible at it. Then stated that they dont care about the PvP balance since its a PvE game, and that they didnt care about the game as an esport at all.

 

I am a hardcore player overall in whatever game I play, and I like competition, steamrolling ******* in BG's really isnt something I enjoy doing for several months simply because it opposes no challenge to me whatsoever, and also doesnt give me any room to actually improve myself and my game very much.

 

So say whatever you want, but I know for a fact that they didnt balance **** around PvP, or if they did, they were smoking some heavy **** because my god the PvP has just gone downhill every patch since late WotlK.

[Vetorept]

Data: Arena is not fun.

 

Grinding arenas is even less fun.

 

Conclusion: arena is bad.

[Ghingis]

Data: Arena is not fun.

 

Grinding arenas is even less fun.

 

Conclusion: arena is bad.

 

So because you think arena is bad, they shouldnt implement it?

 

Good logic bro.

[Scelerant]

The only reason it's not financially prudent is because all the MMOs are doing it wrong. They aren't embracing cyber sports and the niche there is and the money people are willing to spend for competative video games.

 

Also, before any one says something stupid like there's no money in competative video games I'm going to simply point you to Starcraft 2, or the MOBA scene right now.

 

 

There is not one MMO that has embraced video games wholely as a spectator sport. Once one does, if the game is well made I promise you they'll make oodles of cash.

 

I'm not even talking about only arenas (although that is certainly an avenue I'd explore if I was a developer) as a spectator sport. Huttball could EASILY have ladders, and teams, and spectator UIs and tournaments with real yields.

 

Rated battle grounds would be another way they could go. All of these would be great ways an MMO could break into the competative gaming scene but they aren't doing it, because they're short sighted.

 

Mark my words, one day some developers will wise up and hit bank. It would be really cool if that was this game.

 

The problem is that arenas are a piss poor spectator sport. For one there is too much going on too fast to make it watchable for anyone who isn't an arena player. I played WoW PvP just about every day of my 5 years playing that game and I played quite a bit of arenas, yet I had trouble following a fast paced 3 v 3 match just because there is so much going on.

 

Just trying to commentate what's going on in live action is going to be a huge problem because something happens every global.

 

The only way an MMORPG could approach a game like Starcraft as an e-sport would be to run identical teams against one another, IE Sith Juggernaut + Merc VS Sith Juggernaut + Merc. In identical gear, with identical specs.

 

I think of competitive MMORPG PvP the same way as I view battle rap, sure you'll have a few hundred thousand that find it interesting to watch at max, but for the most part its not something that will hit wide audiences in the same way Starcraft or FPS games do.

 

If you have to standardize teams in terms of spec, gear and so on, then the one thing that makes an MMORPG different is gone.

[Taallonn]

I understand that there are serious balance issues with arenas, but keep in mind that some classes and specific specs were made for either PvP or PvE. You wouldn't take a frost mage or a rogue to a raid so why take a warrior to an arena? Though some classes like paladins excel in both.

 

you must have been a wrath noobie. At one time frost spec mage was the highest mage dps, and rogues were top of the damage meter in 40 man raids.....

[Dcayd]

I like arenas. I like when the objective is simply to kill the other team. However, I am against Blizz's old philosophy that arenas = pvp raiding. Arenas should offer rewards on par, but not exceeding, what can be earned from regular warzones. High ranked players should maybe get special cosmetic armor or mounts. The most ideal set up would be 4v4, the standard group size ingame. Anymore and it becomes a zergfest, less and class imbalances will dominate.

 

Bioware definitely needs to add to pvp though. Either more wz or make all warzones like huttball, just call them war-games when it's the same faction.

 

As far as being an e-sport: that's up to Bioware and whether they want to put in the effort to make it one.

[Darkspeaker]

Good, no arena = less ************ and less nerfing based purely on herp derp arena kids whining.

[Maggok]

So you are one of the people thinking Blizzard actually balanced the game around Arenas?

 

You people are so deluded its not even funny. You do not now **** about anything, but yet to decide to comment about it, make sense?

 

You think there will be less whining about PvP just because they dont implement arenas? Just look at these forums already after this short time. People are already complaining about class imbalances before even knowing the name of the classes.

 

Arenas was not the reason why the balancing in WoW became bad, or why PvP became unbalanced, it was the developers and game designers fault, its as easy at that really.

If you played the game at any decent level whatsoever you would know this.

 

 

 

 

I actually played World of Warcraft at a high level for six years. Without lowering myself to trading internet insults, I can assure you that I do, in fact, know enough to express an informed opinion on the subject. I can even manage to do it in complete sentences.

 

I absolutely know there will be whining about PvP, just as there is whining about everything else. A great number of people operate under the delusion (to use your term) that the internet was designed, built and is maintained with the sole purpose of serving as a sort of perpetual grievance engine. Nothing will change that.

 

You are absolutely correct in your assertion that the poor class balance in WoW was the fault of the designers. When you attempt to make your game all things to all people, you end up failing at everything.

 

 

SW:TOR is a Story-Based MMO.

 

SW:TOR is not X-Wing vs Tie Fighter. It may have space combat as a mini game, and it may have room for improvement, but it will never be the focus of the game.

 

SW:TOR is not Star Wars Galaxies (or even Skyrim). It may be a Star Wars MMO, but it isn't a sandbox. There is a linear nature to how the game progresses. Exploration is rewarded with hidden gems like datacrons, but open world exploration will never be the focus of the game.

 

SW:TOR is not Call of Duty, League of Legends or Starcraft. It features PvP as an optional activity, and it already does so quite well, but competitive e-sport PvP will never be the focus of this game.

 

I'm okay with all of that. In fact, I applaud it. SW:TOR isn't in direct competition with any of those games, so why should it try to be?

 

The strength of any great game is defining the experience it wants to provide the player, and then delivering on that experience in the most innovative, engaging and fun way possible. While developers can certainly draw inspiration from a number of sources in a MMO this large, the great ones never lose sight of what their core gameplay experience is.

 

I love the game that BioWare has created, and I look forward to being a part of it as it expands and refines itself over time. If they do decide to add some sort of single elimination death match mini game to SW:TOR, I'll happily play it. All I ask is that it be kept in check as what it is - a mini game, and NOT a core design experience that forces the game as a whole to try to be something that it is not. In all honesty, it shouldn't even be the primary focus of PvP in the game.

 

That is the mistake that Blizzard's developers made, and why I agree with you that laying the blame at their feet for what happened with WoW is 100% correct.

[Vordy]

I have a friend who has personally spoken with a WoW dev and he laughed at people who whine about PvP class imbalances because they need to figure out that some specs and even entire classes were either meant for PvP or PvE. Though blood DKs and paladins are great at both which is actually true imbalance.

 

What? Warriors was one of the best classes, druid / warrior was damn epic.

[Wildfae]

I dunno how SWTOR will expand and cater to the public. What I do know is that in every game, once you start tinkering with mechanics to make things even in PvE or PvP, you break something else. It has happened in WoW, it has happened in Rift, it has happened in Aion and the list goes on.

If you take a game like LoL, it is easier to tinkering with one champion in regards to how viable they are at a given role, without destroying balance.

if you Tinker with Jugg mechanics for example it affects not only their viablty in PvP, but also their viability in PvE. So when devs are tinkering they need to decide what they care about teh most, PvP or PvE. If the game is storyline based first then the answer is obvious. and like an above poster said, PvP is a minigame to be enjoyed inbetween the storyline. As a Diversion, not as a main selling point.

 

*and if thats the case, if arenas do get introduced, it will not be the main focus of the game and expect there to be imbalance. Dont whine about it.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Wildfae

[Ghingis]

I actually played World of Warcraft at a high level for six years. Without lowering myself to trading internet insults, I can assure you that I do, in fact, know enough to express an informed opinion on the subject. I can even manage to do it in complete sentences.

 

I absolutely know there will be whining about PvP, just as there is whining about everything else. A great number of people operate under the delusion (to use your term) that the internet was designed, built and is maintained with the sole purpose of serving as a sort of perpetual grievance engine. Nothing will change that.

 

You are absolutely correct in your assertion that the poor class balance in WoW was the fault of the designers. When you attempt to make your game all things to all people, you end up failing at everything.

 

 

SW:TOR is a Story-Based MMO.

 

SW:TOR is not X-Wing vs Tie Fighter. It may have space combat as a mini game, and it may have room for improvement, but it will never be the focus of the game.

 

SW:TOR is not Star Wars Galaxies (or even Skyrim). It may be a Star Wars MMO, but it isn't a sandbox. There is a linear nature to how the game progresses. Exploration is rewarded with hidden gems like datacrons, but open world exploration will never be the focus of the game.

 

SW:TOR is not Call of Duty, League of Legends or Starcraft. It features PvP as an optional activity, and it already does so quite well, but competitive e-sport PvP will never be the focus of this game.

 

I'm okay with all of that. In fact, I applaud it. SW:TOR isn't in direct competition with any of those games, so why should it try to be?

 

The strength of any great game is defining the experience it wants to provide the player, and then delivering on that experience in the most innovative, engaging and fun way possible. While developers can certainly draw inspiration from a number of sources in a MMO this large, the great ones never lose sight of what their core gameplay experience is.

 

I love the game that BioWare has created, and I look forward to being a part of it as it expands and refines itself over time. If they do decide to add some sort of single elimination death match mini game to SW:TOR, I'll happily play it. All I ask is that it be kept in check as what it is - a mini game, and NOT a core design experience that forces the game as a whole to try to be something that it is not. In all honesty, it shouldn't even be the primary focus of PvP in the game.

 

That is the mistake that Blizzard's developers made, and why I agree with you that laying the blame at their feet for what happened with WoW is 100% correct.

 

Thats the thing though, you can still make arenas a main PvP focus without needing to change that much. I mean, the game is based around what you are saying, yes. But they can still make arenas as a main PvP focus without destroying the core game.

 

I just think that its an easy way for them to satisfy alot of the more hardcore PvPers whilst not putting a huge amount of effort into it.

 

The great thing about arenas is the fact that balancing it is not as challenging as people seem to think, small changes do a ton. They just need to make sure to keep the overall PvP at a decently balanced scale and there wont be any problems with arenas either.

 

WoW PvP has always been pretty unbalanced throughout the seasons, but I honestly believe that S4 and S8 (apart from legendaries) were both pretty spot on as far as balance goes. Sure you had OP comps and OP speccs, but all in all skilled players could always make something out of it, regardless of what class they played, which is what I loved about it.

 

Just stay away from huge changes to try and balance things, because that will most likely get you caught in a spiral that is hard to get away from, and alot of changes after that will just make it worse, Blizzard made a perfect example of just that.

[Killadrix]

You can't argue with those statistics. Arena is very unpopular in wow at moment. You only need to compare season 3 with season 11.

 

Yeah, we can't argue with your statistics as long as we conveniently forget a few things:

 

1) There are currently MILLIONS less people playing WoW now than in previous seasons. This means there are less people participating in arena overall simply due to declining numbers in the game.

 

2) Cata introduced an alternative form of gear progression: RBG's.

 

3) Rift/SWTOR Beta stole a lot of players who are still subbed, but not actively playing the game. I know tons of Glad level players currently playing LoL, SWTOR and Rift. This doesn't mean they feel arena is unpopular, it's just they are bored overall with WoW in general.

[Wildfae]

I think the point is that a game should be either PvP centric or PvE centric. Thats the real argument. The only game that seemed to be very PvP centric was Aion. The game had huge potential, but fell short due mainly to the grind and lack of meaningful PvP. You had world PvP, but anyone of any skill stayed away from it due to the fear of being killed and losing a lot of hard earned points. Points that they were saving to buy gear. But the idea of forts and being in massive 200-400 player battles was fantastic. I remember numerous times defending artifacts in the abyss with 20 people against huge flying incoming force. That game had some great ideas, that were implemented poorly.

This game and almost all others like it seem PvE centric. You have a solid story line that is inrtiguing and requires you to make decisions that affect other parts of the game (ie dark side light side or companion affection). From what I can see PvE is just about right. PvE is fun. That said I love PvP. I love ripping through other players, but if making PvP fun and exciting means changing class mechanics to balance it, then that is the wrong decision to make for this game. If this was Aion, I would have a completely different opinion though. And I think adding an Arena function can not help the game in ANY way. It will just welcome in the complaints about class imbalance in Arena. Just like if they add more PvP instances, some instances warriors are great, others they lack the DPS. the more you have, the more there is to complain about.

[EasymodeX]

There a a lot more people find Arena not fun than those find it fun, which is the main reason why Arena is not getting any more popular.

 

This. Arena has always been a garbage PvP format.

 

Way too much gimmicky sandbox. The format just translates really poorly to an MMORPG.

 

 

SWTOR will never be a PvP game. The game is not designed for it, similar to WoW (although WoW put so much effort into it after the fact that it can grudgingly be said to have some PvP).

 

Don't get your expectations up and just play SWTOR PvP casually.

[Celebrus]

Thank god, implementing arena would instantly turn this game into a completely PvP focused game, basically like WoW is now. Blizz DEFINITELY balances around 3v3 and 5v5 arena now, both PvP nerfs/buffs and PvE nerfs/buffs get handed down based around those EXTREMELY LIMITED parts of the game.

 

Arenas are bad for any MMO, I for one would be glad if they never were implemented.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Celebrus

[Wildfae]

3) Rift/SWTOR Beta stole a lot of players who are still subbed, but not actively playing the game. I know tons of Glad level players currently playing LoL, SWTOR and Rift. This doesn't mean they feel arena is unpopular, it's just they are bored overall with WoW in general.

 

This is only partly true. If you love arena so much, why would you sub to a game that doesn't have it? I dunno sounds like a flimsy argument, but your points are not totally off. I am a little disappointed with the space battles in this game though.