mjamal Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 First, let me say that I've been playing a Vanguard since SWTOR launched. I played both old Assault Specialist and Tactics over the years, but Tactics was my preferred play style even before they nerfed Assault's damage back in the day. I stopped playing the game and like many, came back recently for the expansion and had to learn how to play my class again as I leveled from 55 to 60 .. I tried both Plasma and Tactics to get a feel for each. I've been grinding in Warzones to get decently geared so I can make a run in ranked and see how I do. I've followed the "conventional wisdom" that Tactics > Plasmatech in PVP. So, I've been using the spec but something is really missing or more accurately, I'm missing something. I've heard all about Tactics being "THE BEST BURST SPEC EVAH!!!!!" Yet my damage output when Tactics specced is middling at best. I seem to be stuck in 250K to 350K range in damage. Even with fully Exhumed gear, I just dont seem to have the damage capability of the light-saber wielders. Many times against Warzones full of Sages, Sin's, sorcs, Juggs, I find myself wondering if its better to just run up in Warzones naked because my armor seems to be meaningless against force using classes. So, out of frustration I switched to Plasmatech for a bit (I posted about it in one of the threads) and the difference was night and day. It seems I can defeat my opponents faster..and in Warzones my damage output is 2x to 5x that of Tactics. I've been able to win 1v1 battles more so as a Plasma than I ever did as Tactics. As far as being squishy, I don't see a difference if I'm in Tactics or Plasmatech as I die just as fast either way. If I get focused..I'm toast. Reactive Shield & Adrenaline Rush notwithstanding. I'm not willing to give up on Tactics completely, I do love the mobility of the spec and the fact that I have no channeled attacks...however I'm not seeing the superior damage output that everyone swears is there. Any advice from experienced PVP'ers is welcomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xBlesingx Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I hate to say it, but it's strictly a l2p issue. AP PT's do have some of the best burst around right now, you just have to set it up properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TACeMossie Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 The burst in tactics is brought about by timing your hits right. Due to a massive damage boost on Sticky Grenade (making it almost worth using in PvE in a single target rotation), and the delayed nature of the damage on both Sticky Grenade and Assault Plastique, you can line up some pretty nasty hits in extremely small windows. Say you've got a bleed on someone and shoulder cannon loaded. Use MB as you're closing in (Auto-crit on Cell Burst and +2% damage), then go SG -> TD -> CB -> RS, firing off shoulder cannon alongside the cell burst and rail shot. The combined damage in those 2 GCDs will be catastrophic - if you hit a sage (best case scenario), you can kill them in those 2 GCDs where SG + TD are exploding from ~90+% health - or 100% if they're a scrub in PvE gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjamal Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 I hate to say it, but it's strictly a l2p issue. AP PT's do have some of the best burst around right now, you just have to set it up properly. And there it is - I knew there'd be at least one of these non-helpul, non-insightful L2P NOOB posts *smh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjamal Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 The burst in tactics is brought about by timing your hits right. Due to a massive damage boost on Sticky Grenade (making it almost worth using in PvE in a single target rotation), and the delayed nature of the damage on both Sticky Grenade and Assault Plastique, you can line up some pretty nasty hits in extremely small windows. Say you've got a bleed on someone and shoulder cannon loaded. Use MB as you're closing in (Auto-crit on Cell Burst and +2% damage), then go SG -> TD -> CB -> RS, firing off shoulder cannon alongside the cell burst and rail shot. The combined damage in those 2 GCDs will be catastrophic - if you hit a sage (best case scenario), you can kill them in those 2 GCDs where SG + TD are exploding from ~90+% health - or 100% if they're a scrub in PvE gear. Hey Kwerty! Thanks for responding man.. you def gave me something to think about. In analyzing my play I don't really think about the timing of the attacks...I guess habitually I'm still playing Tactics the OLD way which really wasn't about burst but about the procs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TACeMossie Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Hey Kwerty! Thanks for responding man.. you def gave me something to think about. In analyzing my play I don't really think about the timing of the attacks...I guess habitually I'm still playing Tactics the OLD way which really wasn't about burst but about the procs... Also note I accidentally put half Powertech terms in my example. Pub terms are: RETRACTABLE BLADE IS ON THE TARGET Tactical Surge -> Sticky Grenade -> Assault Plastique (not Thermal Detonator -_-) -> Cell Burst -> High Impact Bolt (not Rail Shot -_-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjamal Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 I would like to add that when it comes to # of "Kills" I can be in the top 3-4 when my team has healers (which is rare) but when it comes to TOTAL DAMAGE done, I doesn't seem like I'm doing much "TOTAL" damage.. I see sorcs all the time with 1 Mill in Damage..I know because I'm not a dot spec per se Im not going to do Sorc numbers..but shouldn't I be in the ..I dunno.. 500K 800K range? Again I can do it as a Plasmatech with no problems... can't seem to reproduce it in Tactics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TACeMossie Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I would like to add that when it comes to # of "Kills" I can be in the top 3-4 when my team has healers (which is rare) but when it comes to TOTAL DAMAGE done, I doesn't seem like I'm doing much "TOTAL" damage.. I see sorcs all the time with 1 Mill in Damage..I know because I'm not a dot spec per se Im not going to do Sorc numbers..but shouldn't I be in the ..I dunno.. 500K 800K range? Again I can do it as a Plasmatech with no problems... can't seem to reproduce it in Tactics Lets put it this way. If you kill an enemy in 3 seconds, they will have to wait ~15 seconds to respawn, and then another ~10 seconds of travel time. This means you have 10% uptime on these guys, because they die so quickly. But if you are a sorc and take ~30 seconds to kill a guy, it means you have ~55% uptime on them, which means your damage numbers are far higher. If you want scoreboard fluff, just go a DoT spec and put DoTs on everything. But if you want to win, take the burst spec, and have them sitting in the respawn zone for most of the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xBlesingx Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 And there it is - I knew there'd be at least one of these non-helpul, non-insightful L2P NOOB posts *smh* I never called you a noob, or meant any offense. I just stated that you needed to learn the proper setup to get a feel for the burst, which Kwerty already explained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjamal Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 I never called you a noob, or meant any offense. I just stated that you needed to learn the proper setup to get a feel for the burst, which Kwerty already explained. No harm done :-) I was looking for a little help .. I know there may be another VG with the same questions so I would like to keep the post as informative as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xBlesingx Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) No worries, with the amount of toxicity these forums can contain at times, I can see why you'd think I meant it that way. I was going to further elaborate, but I had something come up irl and kinda posted it like that as a footnote to come back to. Kwerty answered it really nicely though. I see that you are on harbinger, I plan to actually move my pt over there on friday, I'll add you if you'd like and show you the ropes. Edited July 9, 2015 by xBlesingx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xX-Archangel-Xx Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 The burst in tactics is brought about by timing your hits right. Due to a massive damage boost on Sticky Grenade (making it almost worth using in PvE in a single target rotation), and the delayed nature of the damage on both Sticky Grenade and Assault Plastique, you can line up some pretty nasty hits in extremely small windows. Say you've got a bleed on someone and shoulder cannon loaded. Use MB as you're closing in (Auto-crit on Cell Burst and +2% damage), then go SG -> TD -> CB -> RS, firing off shoulder cannon alongside the cell burst and rail shot. The combined damage in those 2 GCDs will be catastrophic - if you hit a sage (best case scenario), you can kill them in those 2 GCDs where SG + TD are exploding from ~90+% health - or 100% if they're a scrub in PvE gear. still ap probably will cry at conc op sight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xBlesingx Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 still ap probably will cry at conc op sight Ap can still get their burst off on concealment ops, they just have to play their stuns right to prevent the rolls, or bait the rolls into cd and get a 10 sec burst window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleyex Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Don't forget you get damage buffs inside your "tree" after using stock strike and gut. I use these in between throwing sticky grenade and assault plastique so that when you cell burst hits after... its devastating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lalainnia Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Don't forget you get damage buffs inside your "tree" after using stock strike and gut. I use these in between throwing sticky grenade and assault plastique so that when you cell burst hits after... its devastating. Yup no idea why AP has an armor pen debuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) Also note I accidentally put half Powertech terms in my example. Pub terms are: RETRACTABLE BLADE IS ON THE TARGET Tactical Surge -> Sticky Grenade -> Assault Plastique (not Thermal Detonator -_-) -> Cell Burst -> High Impact Bolt (not Rail Shot -_-) I would not put tactical surge so far forward in the rotation. You risk losing relic procs that way. My preffered opener is Sticky Grenade > Assault Plastique > Tactical Surge > Cell Burst > HiB > proccer > HiB > stuff The benefit here is that you have your first two hits of damage occurring 1 GCD ahead of Cell Burst which means you should have your relics up for both the Cell Burst and the HiB. Edited July 10, 2015 by Zoom_VI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjamal Posted July 11, 2015 Author Share Posted July 11, 2015 I FOUND THE BURST!!!! Thank you all so much for the help. I've been able to make the corrections in my play and not play habitually like "old" tactics..but put emphasis on doing as much damage in a small window.. my damage has doubled and by making the alterations in my "rotation" offered in the responses.. I now see that devastating burst... Thank you Now to learn how to play my class well in YOLO Ranked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthBubba Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 It could just be that your original choice isn't the right spec for you. That happens sometimes and it seems like since switching you're doing better. Sometimes no matter how badly you might want to play a certain class it just doesn't seem to work out right then you choose a different discipline and voila. I've been trying and trying to get my Madness Assassin down but recently switched over to Deception and the difference is night and day. I'm still lower level though but I think I'm going to stick with Deception. It just feels and plays right for me. I used to play a Madness Assassin - Tanking Assassin back in the day and was pretty decent with it but I can't seem to get the hang of it now. It could be that he's still to low and he doesn't have his most useful abilities yet so I'll try again later but I'm really enjoying playing Deception. I don't know if he's going to be any good at high lv pvp but I'm having fun with him and that's the main thing. I'm just going to play whichever classes and disciplines are fun to me and not worry about flavor of the month classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjamal Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 So True. When I played the game at Launch I wanted nothing to do with glowstick wielders. I wanted GUNS :-) You can imagine my delight when I saw the trooper class trailer and discovered that I could take the butt of my gun and clock someone RIGHT IN THE GRILL..then shoot em :-D.. However my biggest issue as to why my DPS was lacking was that I was playing the "NEW" tactics/AP like the "OLD" tactics/ap just out of habit/muscle memory. Had to unlearn "Tactics/AP" and play Tactics/AP like the old Assault Specialist/Pyro.. but with Gut/RB and the awesomeness that is CB/EB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNGDangerous Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Can someone translate this thread into powertech terms? i would love to learn how to play this class. Including spec (im not sure which of the 3 this translates to) as well as utility points? This thread really makes me want to try this class out! Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaos_KidSWTOR Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 still ap probably will cry at conc op sight I'd actually say that Leth Operatives are more of a problem due to the self healing nature of Lethality. And in 4.0 we get a pretty godly Masterful Utility that buffs SRMP/KP if it even stays through the development cycle... I really want to PTS test 4.0 stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Can someone translate this thread into powertech terms? i would love to learn how to play this class. Including spec (im not sure which of the 3 this translates to) as well as utility points? This thread really makes me want to try this class out! Thanks in advance Assault Plastique (AP) = Thermal Detonator (TD) Gut = Retractable Blade (RB) Tactical Surge (TS) = Magnetic Blast (MB) Sticky Grenade (SG) = Explosive Dart (ED) Shoulder Cannon (SC) = Shoulder Cannon (SC) Battle Focus (BF) = Explosive Fuel (EF) Cell Burst (CB) = Energy Burst (EB) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyroman Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I'd actually say that Leth Operatives are more of a problem due to the self healing nature of Lethality. And in 4.0 we get a pretty godly Masterful Utility that buffs SRMP/KP if it even stays through the development cycle... I really want to PTS test 4.0 stuff... The main reason why concealment is so much trouble for ap has nothing to do with heals, but that ap burst is so predictable that any good operative will be able to roll to take barely any of their huge burst. Lethality doesn't have anything to fully mitigate the burst like concealment does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNGDangerous Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Assault Plastique (AP) = Thermal Detonator (TD) Gut = Retractable Blade (RB) Tactical Surge (TS) = Magnetic Blast (MB) Sticky Grenade (SG) = Explosive Dart (ED) Shoulder Cannon (SC) = Shoulder Cannon (SC) Battle Focus (BF) = Explosive Fuel (EF) Cell Burst (CB) = Energy Burst (EB) Thank you so much! Ill try it out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts