REMOVE Some Abilities & Simplify Hotbar For PvP

[Lalainnia]

Yes I agree remove all shadow and assassin abilites lol.

[Aelanis]

Don't play the "go back and edit your post" game with me, I'm being honest with you, you should be honest with everyone else. If you screwed up and made a suggestion you didn't mean to or don't stand by, admit it.

Aelanis: "Went through and commented as I saw fit. For those who don't want to read it, I think the changes are just as bad as pretty much everyone else in the thread."

 

Shadow would be the most fun in PvP/PvE if the following changes happened:

- [Force Slow] has been removed.

Aelanis: For PvE? Meh. For PvP? Kinda stings.

- [Low Slash] now also applies a 50% slow for 6 seconds (as force slow did).

Aelanis: So let's remove the stun that Deception has (may not be bad), and replace it with a slow... that they already had. Also, let's just not give the slow back to Hatred or Darkness, right?

 

Maliken: I never said the stun would be removed from Deception.. The slow is an additional affect that kicks in after the stun occurs. Also, a slow IS granted to balance/infiltration via Double Slash as I have listed on the original post.

First, you changed your post such that it no longer implies that the stun is removed. Second, you changed the move to Double Strike in your original post as well, which is very different from it being on Shadow Strike, which would have made it effectively non-existant. In this iteration, though, you've given Deception a 30 meter, 4 second mez with a 6 second slow attached to it after the mez wears off. You're escalating the kiting vs. anti-kiting game, and that's not something this game needs more of.

- [Mind Control] & [Mass Mind Control] (taunts) have been removed for Shadows in the dps role.

Aelanis: There are actually legitimate uses for taunting (and our aggro drop) for DPS in PvE, so this is actually kinda bad, there. If you did it for all tank classes, that would be parity, but that also removes some utility in PvP for the sake of having fewer buttons to press. You can have a streamlined interface and still have a lot of abilities.

 

Maliken: I stand by removing taunts for Shadows in the dps role, and I have no plans of removing taunts from other advanced classes that have tanking trees like the powertech & juggernaut. I feel that this change would encourage and focus the Shadow's gameplay incentives of being witty, stealthy, and dangerous (offensively). The 'loss' in PvE would be worth it macroscopically and would take a lot of weight off in the pvp scene to not have this artform (taunting properly, that is) leaning on your synapse receptors. The taunts are an impure interference in regard to my philosophy route for dps'ing as this advanced class. In conclusion, I believe this class' arsenal should encourage clarity in chaotic situations; wittiness and clutch play.

I stand by my statement of you wanting to dumb down the game, and for my favorite class, which I would never support. You also want to remove some of the raid utility we have left in PvE, for a class with very little to begin with, and yet not make it parity with the other classes? That's a textbook attempt to unbalance things. As for clarity in chaotic situations? It's pretty easy: you use the next best move you have against the opponent and/or the move that gives you the best survival.

- [blackout] has been removed. Instead, [Force Potency] will grant 30 force and -25% damage taken over the next 6 seconds on top of its current functions. Stealth effectiveness has been slightly increased as compensation.

Aelanis: Like I mentioned before: this will kill Deception's sustained damage. You use Recklessness about every 48 seconds, on average, though it would go down to 45 without Blackout. You use Blackout every 34 seconds, on average. Blackout grants an immediate 15 Force, and a secondary 24 Force over the next 6 seconds. You lose 0.48 Force per second switching to that. That hurts a lot over the course of a 300 second fight, on the order of 7 Voltaic Slashes. That's AWFUL. On top of this, it turns tanks nearly invulnerable when they pop Recklessness, as they suddenly get 30% Absorb AND 25% reduced damage. Not exactly balanced on a 90 second cooldown.

 

Maliken: I think you are misunderstanding the full picture of what I am propsing when i bring forth these notions of change. Its about the vision of improved gameplay, not necessarily the accuracy of mathematical balance (tooltip #'s). In other words, if the Blackout change would REDUCE the amount of force regenerated over time than the old way, then simply INCREASE the amount of force regenerated over time via its new source: Force Potency. And if that messes up with tank roles then balance it accordingly! Its about the primary notion of change; not 'take it or leave it'. Again, if the extra defensive from the new Blackout is too powerful for tanks then just remove the damage mitigation for tank spec... If Force Potency has a longer cooldown and therefore the Blackout change seems dumb, then DECREASE Force Potency's cooldown accordingly. I feel that these things are petty and should be already generally understood.

If you want people to approve of your ideas, including developers who can act on them and make them a reality, then you need to show some semblance of understanding how to balance the ideas. You keep suggesting things without looking at the bigger picture, despite saying you are, and simply reply with "oh, well you can do something to balance it out". It's not always that simple, and at some point, there are things you simply can't balance out.

 

Specific example: if you reduce the cooldown of Recklessness, then you increase the ability of Deception to use Recklessness basically back to back on Discharge + Ball Lightning. Nobody wants a world where a Deception Assassin can use Discharge > Ball Lightning > Voltaic Slash > Maul > Discharge > Ball Lightning and expect everything but the Voltaic Slash to crit. Which would be possible if you evened out the Force Regeneration on Potency by reducing the cooldown, which would force it down to 55 seconds. Which, when you stealth out in Deception, goes immediately to 0. If, instead, you simply increase the amount of Force it restores to compensate for the loss of Blackout, you would have to have it restore roughly 55 Force (funny how those numbers match up, right?). At that point, you've given a reset button to a class with no additional penalty for blowing through its resource pool than maybe missing a single move. An ability like that is fine for a class that regens significantly less of its resource pool when its pool diminishes, because it gives them a larger effective resource pool to work with every once in a while. Either option throws something horribly out of balance, and that's why I'm saying it's a bad suggestion.

- [Mind Snap] (interrupt) range has been changed from 10m to 30m.

Aelanis: Melee class with a ranged interrupt? Because that's balanced.

 

Maliken: Yes, it could very well be balanced. The Shadow wouldn't be the only class sharing my philosophy applications. I gave more of a taste/example of this by sharing what the marauder Berserk ability should be in one of my post. Its about the vision of enhanced gameplay, and the Shadow advanced class should be focused on super clutch decision making with a crafty arsenal at its disposal. Having a ranged interrupt as a melee class would feel very nice and unique compared to the other melee advanced classes, and again could very well be balanced after other major changes are implemented under this philosophy route. This encourages what the folks at Blizzard call "Concentrated Coolness". It makes each class FEEL very unique from the others. SWtoR is very weak in this department.

Yes. Because my Powertech feels so very much like my Assassin in any sense of the phrase. Moving on.

- [spinning Strike] is now a 2 second channel attack that applies a slow (like the guardian's master strike). It will deal about 40% more damage as well.

Aelanis: This is awful. Yes, I totally want to stand around while people run out of my attack so they can cancel the last hit and rob me of a bunch of damage. On top of this, you're trying to fit a 2 second ability into each rotation, which is immensely clunky, as suddenly you push everything back a half second, and the cooldown goes up to 6.5 seconds on the ability, unless you want to waste a full second not doing anything to keep using it on cooldown. On top of that, Nobody is going to be okay with a move that hits for upwards of 15.4k in PvE on a 6 second (6.5 in reality) cooldown. That's just not okay.

 

Maliken: This is actually the most skeptical change I have on the list. Its major for sure. I put it in because I would love to see this class with a beautiful high damage flurry attack. That being said, the 2 second channel would also apply a major slow on the enemy, so your enemy isn't going to be getting away all the time from it - and even if said enemy dodges the last attack, it won't wreck your dps output. It would work different than the Guardian's Master Strike, not having a dramatic 3rd attack at the end that is more delayed, but rather a quick flurry of attacks. Lastly, when you say "15.4k in pve on a 6 second cooldown isn't ok", I would come back again and say that you are taking my entire thread completely wrong if you are turned off by the mathematical imbalance of a change like this. As i posted above, this thread is about gameplay improvement, the mathematics (#'s, durations, cooldowns, %'s) can all be adjusted - it isn't a 'take as is' situation. That being said, I am glad that you come back with a 15.4k over 2 seconds comment because those notions are indeed important, but I do ask that when something seems bizarre like that, don't throw away the whole picture just because the math of it seems unfair. Think about the whole vision. All in all I agree with you on this - this ability should probably be left untouched.

People get away from the Juggernaut/Marauder root on Ravage on a very regular basis. With all the new root/slow breaks classes have, it helps only as often as they don't have Force Speed/Intercede/Camouflage/Hydraulic Overrides/etc. Now, if you don't leave the last hit as the strongest, you very much encourage people to break the channel early, especially at a 2 second duration in order to keep on the GCD. It's a suggestion that shouldn't go through, and I can just keep providing reasons if you want.

- [Force in Balance] and [sever Force] have been removed for Serenity specced Shadows. However, [Force Breach] will now deal approximately x5 more damage over the 18 second duration. Also, [Whirling Blow] will spread [Force Breach] to all nearby enemies as long as 1 enemy is affected by your [Force Breach] and that "1" enemy is within 12m of you. Note that the duration of [Force Breach] is not refreshed by [Whirling Blow].

Aelanis: Now, I'm trying to keep an open mind about changing the rotation, but this is still an awful suggestion. Nobody liked Thrash spam. If you take those moves out of the rotation, guess what you get back? Thrash spam. Then you also go and increase dotspread radius to 12 meters? That's a 24 meter diameter, which is pretty much unavoidable at that point. On top of THAT, you're spreading a dot that will deal roughly 4-7k per tick after that 5x damage increase to all those enemies. That's just not okay.

 

Maliken: My main inspiration for this change was to make this exotic, double bladed lightsaber class have more animated focus on melee attacks in the attempt to channel more of a Darth Maul vibe. That being said..

When you say 'Thrash spam', I take it as being analogous to Whirling Blow spam(?), that being to spam whirling blow to spread the dots - and thus being boring and silly. Please note that the Shadow wouldn't actually be spamming Whirling Blow due to it not refreshing the 18 second DoT duration(s). On that note, my original recommendation of 12 meters may have been too high. Don't take the tooltip math at face value. Question it and bring it forth, but please remember to imagine the whole vision of all these gameplay changes - that is the goal.

You say 4-7k per tick is unacceptable after my 5x damage improvement. But all I did was add in the damage from Sever Force (which was removed) on to Force Breach. Am i missing something? How is this unacceptable damage? Its approximately the same damage as before.

MOST IMPORTANTLY. You say Thrash Spam, and a lot of people bring up the idea of a derp derp hotbar thats over simplified and 'dumbed down'. This simply wouldn't be the case. You have Serenity Strike AND a new ability coming in the next expansion. This is far from a 1 button smash faceroll.. People cried in similar fashion with World of Warcraft when the warrior's Spell Reflect macros were getting removed. You would now simply hit Spell Reflect, instead of quad-tapping your macro and then hitting another button to return to the offensive. Now a' days the warrior class in World of Warcraft plays better than ever (by a long shot)! Complexity can easily derive from silky-smooth simplicity. Numerous changes under this philosophy (with respect to synapse value) were made in World of Warcraft, and it has by no means created a 1 button faceroller but rather, arguably, the best gameplay the world has ever seen in a video game; keeping their 10 year old game alive and young. \\ P.S.\\ I regularly go b/t swtor and wow. Both are fun

Simplicity done right doesn't mean 4 buttons yay..... It equates to FUN. A synaptic joy ride in the heat of combat which allows the player to create their own artistic rendition and expression of their class, rather than an overburdening subconscious experience that involves a plethora of buttons that grant very diluted sensations *cringe*.

Thrash is equivalent to Double Strike. I'm not sure if you played the spec before 2.8, when they changed it much for the better, but you used Double Strike almost every other GCD. That's bland and boring. Even if they add a new, unique ability to the spec, you're going to use Double Strike more than you used to by removing 2 moves from the rotation, unless its cooldown is less than 8 seconds, which is unlikely, given that every ability granted in 2.0 had a longer cooldown than that (save Scamper, which was eventually changed to have a longer cooldown).

 

The damage on Force Breach isn't acceptable because, at best, Sever Force deals 1.5 times as much damage as Force Breach. You asked for a x5 multiplier. That's not even close to equal. Why is it bad to spread that kind of dot? Because that's unhealable, plain and simple. If you spread the dot to just 4 people, you jump up an extra 5,500 dps (if you average 5.5k on a tick with crits). Spread it to the rest of an 8 man team and you jump up almost 13k dps. People are frustrated with dotspread as is, spreading high damage dots is a bad thing. Not to mention that removing Sever Force removes the root that Serenity has that isn't replaced elsewhere. Now would you stop saying "the math can be balanced?" Because it should be up to the one who makes the suggestion to at least have it in the ballpark of balanced, lest you appear to know nothing about how the class plays.

 

A final note here: the Hatred rotation is drop-dead-gorgeous in PvE. Everything lines up absolutely perfectly, with the ability to use every move with a cooldown on that cooldown. Then when you hit the execute phase, it turns into a frenetic joyride of watching your damage climb as you just keep pounding them with Assassinate, while adjusting your rotation to keep your dots going. There are no truly hard mechanics in this game that are going to take enough of your attention off your rotation that should even occupy your train of thought, once you learn them, and so this is how they add a small measure of skill into the game.

- [spinning Kick] removed for Shadows in the dps role. Instead, [shadow Strike] will be empowered when used from stealth (lightning up on the hotbar to indicate this) and also take upon the attack animation of [spinning Kick] when used from stealth. Shadows in the tank role will still have [spinning Kick], and it will now deal approximately 33% more damage.

Aelanis: Again, I'm not sure you thought this through. There's one spec, and only one spec, that uses Maul, and that's Deception. Deception uses Maul when it's discounted to cost 10 Force, and deals an additional 30% damage. You'd be asking them to use a Maul at 40 Force for roughly the same damage? AFTER taking Blackout away from them to recover Force if they run out? Would you also be okay with Maul > Reck Discharge > Ball Lightning > Maul > Maul with crits of over 10k on each Maul? You want it to be streamlined, but it turns into almost a 1 button "rotation" that's a farce of what it's ever been.

 

Maliken: Thank you for this. I will convey a more clear depiction of my goal.

In Infiltration spec, Shadow Strike will inherit the damage boost & spinning kick attack animation when used from stealth. The improved damage granted from stealth will be worth while as an opener even without the reduced Force cost proc. If it becomes a gameplay issue, simply reduce the force cost of Shadow Strike when stealthed... VISION! And no, its not 'roughly the same damage', it will deal a lot more from stealth, even relative to the +30% damage from the proc.

"After taking Blackout away from them to recover force if they run out?!"

No... Blackout's force recovery perk was inherited by Force Potency as previously stated, and also note that I said Force Potency can have a shorter cooldown and perhaps other tooltip changes to attain balance. So, Shadows Respite (energy regeneration buff after breaking stealth) will be granted from Force Potency and for a short duration after breaking stealth. Glad to clear that up. And lastly, no... i really cringe when i see people go to extremes and say things like "you want streamlined but a ONE BUTTON ROTATION isn't fun"... You simply, factually, would not have a 1 button rotation. There would in fact be, once again, a large artistic opportunity to be had from each individual player with the new arsenal. Again, we got Serenity Strike as a new ability, and this upcoming expansion is giving us ANOTHER ability. The artistic opportunity wrought from the arsenal will be enhanced and still plentiful! Why be silly and say "1 button rotation derp derp"? That is simply not true, just like it isn't true for world of warcraft's latest expansion. So many people cried the same stuff about the game being a 1 button masher just because they got rid of a few abilities and merged certain mechanics in to others - its NOTHING close to a 1 button rickroll! This is not subjective, its fact. Taking swtor and decreasing the hotbar from 29 abilities to 19'ish is very reasonable, and you will still have plenty to do (again, create an artform with it, unique to your playstyle in the chaos of chronic perception application; especially in pvp).

Aside from me grossly disliking being paraphrased in a way I hadn't spoken, I'm going to point back to my previous statement in this post that you didn't think about the consequences of changing Recklessness, or the fact that this proposed change still wouldn't grant the same Force regen. I'm also going to have to go with mmerry on the "you're in the minority" line. I don't want to go back to Thrash spam, and your suggestion would actually bring us quite close to 50% of our moves being Thrash.

- [Resilience] now also reduces damage taken by 30% for the duration.

Aelanis: Shroud is quite strong as it is right now. We don't need tanks to be able to pop Shroud + Recklessness + Overcharge to become literally unkillable for 5 seconds. That would be 52.5% of incoming damage at roughly 55% DR, with absorb in the high 80s to 90s, with the natural high shield chance (and Defense against things that Shroud doesn't automatically stop) the tanks have. Maybe Hatred could use a small non-heal based defense, but giving it to all the specs is bad.

 

Maliken: That makes sense. Ok. So.. Shadow tanks would either not have this extra defensive at all, or have a reduced version of it. I was focusing on Shadow dps gameplay, i may not have been clear enough on that so my apologies. Perhaps make Overcharge's defensive bonus exclusive to tanks, and Resilience's defensive bonus exlusive for dps.(?)

I'm not sure if you mean the defensive bonus that only tanks get as it is on live, or if you mean the healing from it. Either way, no, Resilience doesn't need to increase DR, it literally already stops 2/3 of the damage types in the game for its duration.

- [Force Cloak] now heals you for 3% health per second as long as you remain stealthed; reaching a total of 30% over 10 seconds.

Aelanis: You won't see this used outside of PvP, and even then, people won't use it there for the full duration. As soon as you're out of sight, you drop out and start using a regen move, which is FAR faster. In PvE, you only stealth out to come right back into combat, because staying stealthed is a DPS loss and makes it impossible to tank, which is bad, if you weren't aware.

 

Maliken: Correct, you wouldn't see it used outside of PvP much; thats fine. The shadow wouldn't have to use it for the full duration. It is to enhance the synapse value of the Shadow's "Vanish" ability. I like the idea of it granting the subconscious a sensation of shelter, safety, and recuperation, rather than just shelter. It magnifies the primary directive of this being a defensive ability and I think the result is beautiful. Whether you choose to only get a 6% heal instead of the full 30% because you want to re-engage is up to you, and I think that is a fine and acceptable aspect. Its afterall, in theory, a cherry on the pie perk for this class.

I don't think the buff is warranted, but I also don't see anyone getting the full benefit of it, ever, outside of poorly played PvP matches. You just aren't useful if you're sitting around doing nothing, but if you aren't suggesting we lose something useful for it, I guess I see no glaring issues with it.

- [shadow Strike] now slows the enemy by 25% for 2 seconds for Serenity spec only.

Aelanis: Yes, I want to burn almost half my Force bar applying a measly slow for a super-low duration at melee range. Enough said.

 

Maliken: Indeed. Thank you. I'll change that. Since Force Slow was removed, and I want to keep it that way, I would like for Double Strike to apply the 2 second slow instead. The tooltip could be changed to 3 seconds at a later time. I have the right vision for this (i think) necessary change, but I didn't make the right micro change. Solved? Share.

That's now an actually reasonable suggestion. Kinda goes against the feel of a 30 meter interrupt if you have to be in melee to slow them, but Assassins have always been kinda strange.

Merge the pvp powerup items:

[Warzone Medpac] + [Warzone Adrenal] = [Warzone Adrenal]

[Tooltip Option#1] Instantly grants +30% health and reduces damage taken by 15% for 15 seconds.

[Tooltip Option#2] Heals you for 30% health and reduces damage taken by 15% over 15 seconds.

[Tooltip Option#3] Heals you for 30% health and reduces damage taken by 25% over 7 seconds.

[Philosophy] The heal over time tooltips encourage the happenstance of 'burst dps' in PvP. Also, I know logistically that in meta game you will normally want to use the medpac & adrenal separately, but my proposal is for a massive gameplay improvement more than 'Oh no, now i can't use my two powerups separately anymore'. After this change is implemented, class defensives can be buffed slightly if need be, or hell, the expansion can increase the health to damage ratio granting about 25% more health in pvp and thus removing the feeling of 'needing' to even use those powerups separately. In other words, you wouldn't miss it. Thinking critically is vital when you bring massive change to any field of data, and 90% of humans cannot critical think. That doesn't mean you can rub your chin and think about the vision's possible reverberating affects.

 

Aelanis: You turn 2 cooldowns into 1 for the sake of, literally, dumbing down the game. That's a matter of opinion of whether or not it's good, but I'm in the camp that doesn't like that. This is an MMO. You get lots of abilities in an MMO. I like to be able to pick from those abilities, and there are ones that obviously work better in certain situations. If you don't like that, then maybe MMOs are the wrong type of game for you.

 

Maliken: Absolutely not. I do not turn 2 cooldowns in to 1 for the 'sake of dumbing down the game' as you so crudely suggested.... That is a very abominable representation of my vision of gameplay improvement and another prime example of silly extremism being taken to vilify creativity & change (though I think you do it subconsciously).

Thank you for expressing that you are in the camp that doesn't like this specific change, that is welcome and acceptable. Its part of the feedback I seek, though I really seek specific micro reasons as to why one holds such an opinion in the first place. When it comes to the philosophy application of the grossly misunderstood term 'mainstreaming', I find that people jump to bizarre and frankly inaccurate extremities that are obviously stupefyingly nongenuine. To elaborate..

I understand that 'you get lots of abilities in an MMO'. Each MMO has varying levels of hotbar buttons at the players disposal. Most of them have more than 10. SWTOR is around 27-29'ish in PvP, and I find that grotesquely overbearing and unnecessary. You can still have quality and 'options' with 17-19 abilities instead of 27-29.... That difference of 10 somehow turns in to =1 button, and this baffles me.

WoW understood that they had a quality issue with gameplay that caught up to them over the years. They were adding more and more abilities and some of the abilities didn't have any synapse value @ all. The whole picture show had become a diluted mess for each class (by the way, Blizzard's original company name in the 90's was Silicon & Synapse). They use to have around 30-35'ish and finally went down to about 15 this last year, because they realized the purity and excitement of good synapse value. The current state of the marauder's "Berserk" is a good example of poor synapse value. Its really a squandered sensation of epic proportions. The player should FEEL it in his/her bones when going Berserk, becoming the manifestation of wrath and empowerment. Currently, there is no such synaptic affect when using Berserk. I have a previous post describing a resolution to this mess if you want more information on that, but the main point is that YOU CAN get complexity from simplicity if its done properly. An entirely different overall experience can be wrought by a seemingly small change like taking away two abilities and merging their mechanics in to other abilities that share their primary directive (goal).

Except it IS dumbing down the game. It removes from you the ability to play smart, using them separately to get the most overall mitigation, versus having to use them to get better burst mitigation. You are removing an intelligent choice from those who can see the difference and execute on it for the sake of simplifying the game mechanics, which are simple enough as is. On top of this, you have to then deal with the issue of keeping or discarding the 1 per fight lockout medpacks have, which will skew things in reg matches in long mid fights.

 

Aelanis: You get lots of abilities in an MMO. I like to be able to pick from those abilities, and there are ones that obviously work better in certain situations. If you don't like that, then maybe MMOs are the wrong type of game for you.

 

Maliken: Yes you do get a lot of abilities in an MMO.

I like to pick between my abilities too.

Yes, some abilities are better in certain situations. Cool.

"If you don't like that, then maybe MMOs are the wrong type of game for you"

I do like it... I love MMO's.... ???.....

 

Now, to address why people keep insisting that you intend to dumb down the game, let me remind you that you yourself said that having more buttons forces you to think more, and that most people aren't capable of critical thinking (using an unfounded statistic, no less), and so we should make it easier for them.

[LudhaninRolgge]

First of all, you keep on using "difficult" words like "synapse value. I'm sure you just made that up to sound smarter. Secondly, I use at most 15 to 20 abilities with my shadow, the rest is on my hotbar because I don't like empty slots.

Thirdly, you propose changes from a pvp point of view without even thinking what it would do to pve. I just feel like you were pvping and 1) you were constantly killed by a sin/shadow or 2) you played a sin/shadow and couldn't kill a thing.

And as was stated earlier, you probably don't play for the same reason that most of the players coming here. I don't care if attack A has animation B or attack B has animation A. Yes, nice animations are nice, but as long as I do the most damage my toon can do regarding of its stuff, it's what important and I think most players think like me.

 

In the end, sin/shadow are fine where they are (even if I wouldn't say no to a little damage buff). I don't understand why you want to mess everything up just because you don't seem to wrap your head around the rotation.

 

EDIT : And all your changes are unbalancing everything, your simple solution is just "do an other thing to balance". You'll fall in a balancing chain with everything snowballing out of control. And the game really doesn't need more imbalance.

Edited July 9, 2015 by LudhaninRolgge

[Warlord_Maliken]

Mmerry: Im not feeling as trollish today so here goes..

Maliken: I stand by removing taunts for Shadows in the dps role, and I have no plans of removing taunts from other advanced classes that have tanking trees like the powertech & juggernaut. I feel that this change would encourage and focus the Shadow's gameplay incentives of being witty, stealthy, and dangerous (offensively). The 'loss' in PvE would be worth it macroscopically and would take a lot of weight off in the pvp scene to not have this artform (taunting properly, that is) leaning on your synapse receptors. The taunts are an impure interference in regard to my philosophy route for dps'ing as this advanced class. In conclusion, I believe this class' arsenal should encourage clarity in chaotic situations; wittiness and clutch play.

Mmerry: A taunt in PvE can be the exact definition of a clutch play in order to save your raid team from a wipe during progression.

Maliken: I understand this. My above paragraph describes why. The 'loss' in PvE would be worth it macroscopically and would take a lot of weight off in the pvp scene to not have this artform (taunting properly, that is) leaning on your synapse receptors. The taunts are an impure interference in regard to my philosophy route for dps'ing as this advanced class. In conclusion, I believe this class' arsenal should encourage clarity in chaotic situations; wittiness and clutch play.

Maliken: When you say 'Thrash spam', I take it as being analogous to Whirling Blow spam(?), that being to spam whirling blow to spread the dots - and thus being boring and silly. Please note that the Shadow wouldn't actually be spamming Whirling Blow due to it not refreshing the 18 second DoT duration(s).

Mmerry: Thrash spam comes from the 2.0-2.9 game cycle. As a balance shadow you quite literally only used double strike or saber strike when you didnt have to refresh dots or use FiB.

Maliken: But today, Shadows have Serenity Strike (lifesteal) and are getting another ability when the expansion comes out. These variables are very important when talking about a 'rotation'.. I do however have my doubts about removing Sever Force & merging it in to Force Breach. Perhaps it shouldn't happen. I do however feel that if Sever Force wasn't removed, it should at least have a melee attack animation (and of course, be melee range). I digress, my main inspiration for this change was to make this exotic, double bladed lightsaber class have more animated focus on melee attacks in the attempt to channel more of a Darth Maul vibe.

Maliken: Simplicity done right doesn't mean 4 buttons yay..... It equates to FUN. A synaptic joy ride in the heat of combat which allows the player to create their own artistic rendition and expression of their class, rather than an overburdening subconscious experience that involves a plethora of buttons that grant very diluted sensations *cringe*.

&

Maliken: The current state of the marauder's "Berserk" is a good example of poor synapse value. Its really a squandered sensation of epic proportions. The player should FEEL it in his/her bones when going Berserk, becoming the manifestation of wrath and empowerment. Currently, there is no such synaptic affect when using Berserk. I have a previous post describing a resolution to this mess if you want more information on that, but the main point is that YOU CAN get complexity from simplicity if its done properly. An entirely different overall experience can be wrought by a seemingly small change like taking away two abilities and merging their mechanics in to other abilities that share their primary directive (goal).

Mmerry: I get the feeling that you play and enjoy the game differently than a good majority of the frequent posters in this forum. Im not saying thats a bad thing, its just how it appears. When I am playing my gunslinger and I hit wounding shots I'm not thinking "Wow what a cool ability. I love the way the energy damage from my blasters is causing the enemy to hurt more from my bleeds". Im thinking something along the lines of... "Do I have enough energy to use a quickdraw in this block or am I going to have to use a free filler." or "Do I have cool head/illegal mods up so I can burn harder in order to do more damage."

Maliken: Yeah i experience more when playing the game than most players, that is true. Its a good thing (for me), not a bad thing. When you describe your experience with the gunslinger, you are expressing your conscious analysis of the experience (like most people) but not synchronizing with what your subconscious is doing in those very moments. Some are attuned to that, and experience both the conscious and subconscious reactions together in the conscious mind. I call this the subconscious synchronization ratio; people have varying degrees of it.

Mmerry: On the point of 1 button rotations.. You keep bringing up WoW and although I don't have near the playtime or experience with it, an Arcane Mage can literally hit 3 buttons and do passable damage. They wont top the charts or do optimal damage, but its still passable.

Maliken: The arcane has 6 buttons in its primary standstill pve rotation. There is MUCH more going on in PvP of course. It is also important to note that the Arcane Mage in world of warcraft is juggling stack buffs which alter decision making when going mobile and in regard to the enemy target's health bar. It is not a bone headed 3 button rickroll session as you propose.

 

 

Mmerry: Simplicity does not always make things better.

Maliken: That is too broad of a statement to really respond to. Of course general simplicity does not always make things better in any given situation....... Really? This statement is utterly superfluous in regard to dealing with data scientifically. Its null and void.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Warlord_Maliken

[Warlord_Maliken]

[Aelanis]: Don't play the "go back and edit your post" game with me, I'm being honest with you, you should be honest with everyone else. If you screwed up and made a suggestion you didn't mean to or don't stand by, admit it.

 

Maliken: Wrong. I changed my original post thanks to the feedback. The previous data is immortalized in previous posts via quoting. There is no deception here.... I even stated before doing so, that I agreed with the feedback which was in opposition of my original proposal.

 

[Aelanis]: People get away from the Juggernaut/Marauder root on Ravage on a very regular basis. With all the new root/slow breaks classes have, it helps only as often as they don't have Force Speed/Intercede/Camouflage/Hydraulic Overrides/etc. Now, if you don't leave the last hit as the strongest, you very much encourage people to break the channel early, especially at a 2 second duration in order to keep on the GCD. It's a suggestion that shouldn't go through, and I can just keep providing reasons if you want.

 

[Maliken:] Yeah as i have said before i was just flirting with the idea of the Shadow having a channeled melee flurry attack. I had a lot of doubts about it and after the feedback I realised I am definately missing some variables if I want to get this idea in. I'll retire it for now, and thanks

 

[Aelanis]: The damage on Force Breach isn't acceptable because, at best, Sever Force deals 1.5 times as much damage as Force Breach. You asked for a x5 multiplier. That's not even close to equal.

 

[Maliken]: You're right. And on a second note I have decided that Sever Force should actually stay in the game. However, I am going to look in to making Sever Force a melee double-saber attack though rather than range magic.

 

[Aelanis]: Aside from me grossly disliking being paraphrased in a way I hadn't spoken.

 

[Maliken]: When did this happen? If I did this please let me know. I don't like that stuff either. Bring up the quotes. I know for sure that I did not edit anything you've previously said. I re-read it and still couldn't see where i 'paraphrased' you.

 

[Aelanis]: I'm going to point back to my previous statement in this post that you didn't think about the consequences of changing Recklessness, or the fact that this proposed change still wouldn't grant the same Force regen. I don't want to go back to Thrash spam, and your suggestion would actually bring us quite close to 50% of our moves being Thrash.

 

[Maliken]: Yes thanks for the spellcheck feedback. I have decided to keep Sever Force, though I am looking at ways to changing it to a melee ability (double-bladed attack animation) to reach my complete vision for this advanced class. I'll update more later. This will help slightly with any risk of Thrash spamming arising again. Secondly, in regard to Recklessness, the proposed change should grant the same Force regen as Blackout did. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Aelanis]: That's now an actually reasonable suggestion. Kinda goes against the feel of a 30 meter interrupt if you have to be in melee to slow them, but Assassins have always been kinda strange.

 

[Maliken]: YES!!!! Yess!!!!!!!! The first feedback that has agreed with one of my proposals! Its true, the assassin/shadow has always been strange. Deep inside the subconscious, we know the gameplay is a bit strange. Something is off. Some of us can see the blurry Sasquatch in the distance that's causing this problem, and we move toward it to solve the riddle. My imagination is churning with this class and I think a few days from now I will have an even more clear picture of what needs to be done.

 

[Aelanis]: Except it IS dumbing down the game. It removes from you the ability to play smart...

 

[Maliken]: NO. It does NOT dumb down the game and it DOES NOT remove from you (the player) the ability to play smart.... How absurd....

We have different understandings of 'dumbing down' a game means. I previously stated that people vastly misinterpret the world 'mainstreaming', and I think this is a very good case of that happenstance. By removing a few abilities and merging a few mechanics around here and there, the synaptic weight becomes much lighter in chaotic moments of perception application. This doesn't mean less buttons = easier game and thus less intelligence required to play it and thus = more fun. It instead, maintains a healthy arsenal at the player's disposal (not 1 button....) in which most players can have higher perception accuracy when it comes down to what their enemies are doing and are soon to be doing. This is important for getting the EXPERIENCE that every good gaming company wants their players to have, but often times only veterans get to have it. In an ideal structure, majority of players should be able to have the foresight of their surroundings at about 0.75 to 1.33 seconds before hand, with at least 1 other player/enemy. Veterans can still have fun in this 'mainstreamed/simplified/pure' structure because they will have a higher foresight rating (approximately 1.33 to 4 seconds) and with more than 1 player/enemy. They will see more on the field of battle, and predict seconds ahead of time what is most likely to happen and then ACT ACCORDINGLY via applying their own artistic rendition of how they want to play that near future out. When the hotbar in a game isn't a synaptic cluster____, the capacity for artistic freedom becomes a beautiful part of the player's EXPERIENCE. Rather than having ''more is better, because if this happens, i can do this, and if that happens, i can do this instead, and if this and this happens, i can then hit this and that'', and so on and so forth. No, a clean hotbar with about 15 sensible abilities that have logical mechanics is much more objectively attractive to any human being, though most have no idea what I am talking about at this point I'm sure, as it requires critical thinking. That is, to not be insulting due to the reality of a deterministic reality but that is a tale for another time.

P.S. Maliken: A good example of overburdening synapses (clunky gameplay) is when I look at a few people I know in real life that play MMO's and I watch them play in pvp combat. When they enter a battle, they don't see whats happening around them. Its like they aren't breathing. I know one that when he enters a battle and there are multiple enemies around, even if they aren't attacking him he just quickly (panics) mashes his up-down-left-right arrow keys which trigger all of his defensive abilities. I've another who simply takes a decent amount of abilities OFF the hotbar (like whirlwind for the assassin) because there are simply already too many buttons. I also find it funny that people who oppose my changes also recommend to do this very thing - remove abilities from the hotbar. LoL.. anyway i wanted to share that.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Warlord_Maliken

[T_T_P]

[Maliken]: NO. It does NOT dumb down the game and it DOES NOT remove from you (the player) the ability to play smart.... How absurd....

 

I'd like to know what does dumbing down the game means to you?

 

By removing a few abilities and merging a few mechanics around here and there, the synaptic weight becomes much lighter in chaotic moments of perception application. This doesn't mean less buttons = easier game and thus less intelligence required to play it and thus = more fun.

 

I agree with you having less buttons to press does not make the game easier but it makes the class/discipline easier, more boring and much more predictable atleast in my opinion.

 

majority of players should be able to have the foresight of their surroundings at about 0.75 to 1.33 seconds before hand, with at least 1 other player/enemy. Veterans can still have fun in this 'mainstreamed/simplified/pure' structure because they will have a higher foresight rating (approximately 1.33 to 4 seconds) and with more than 1 player/enemy.

 

This can be improved by practice not by removing abilities. Develop a muscle memory so you can focus on what is happening around you.

 

No, a clean hotbar with about 15 sensible abilities that have logical mechanics is much more objectively attractive to any human being, though most have no idea what I am talking about at this point I'm sure, as it requires critical thinking.

 

People are different and not everyone likes simplified things I'd fall asleep with only 15 abilitites to use at any situation. I do not always prefer having more but this is one of those situations where I do.

[Aelanis]

[Aelanis]: Don't play the "go back and edit your post" game with me, I'm being honest with you, you should be honest with everyone else. If you screwed up and made a suggestion you didn't mean to or don't stand by, admit it.

 

Maliken: Wrong. I changed my original post thanks to the feedback. The previous data is immortalized in previous posts via quoting. There is no deception here.... I even stated before doing so, that I agreed with the feedback which was in opposition of my original proposal.

I apologize. I commented as I read through, as I do with long posts, but have been very busy, and didn't go back to change it. In fact, I wrote a third of the post 2 nights ago, a third of the post last morning, and finished it last night. It's just typically good form to address and point out changes as they happen, rather than going for paragraphs before mentioning them.

[Aelanis]: People get away from the Juggernaut/Marauder root on Ravage on a very regular basis. With all the new root/slow breaks classes have, it helps only as often as they don't have Force Speed/Intercede/Camouflage/Hydraulic Overrides/etc. Now, if you don't leave the last hit as the strongest, you very much encourage people to break the channel early, especially at a 2 second duration in order to keep on the GCD. It's a suggestion that shouldn't go through, and I can just keep providing reasons if you want.

 

[Maliken:] Yeah as i have said before i was just flirting with the idea of the Shadow having a channeled melee flurry attack. I had a lot of doubts about it and after the feedback I realised I am definately missing some variables if I want to get this idea in. I'll retire it for now, and thanks

 

[Aelanis]: The damage on Force Breach isn't acceptable because, at best, Sever Force deals 1.5 times as much damage as Force Breach. You asked for a x5 multiplier. That's not even close to equal.

 

[Maliken]: You're right. And on a second note I have decided that Sever Force should actually stay in the game. However, I am going to look in to making Sever Force a melee double-saber attack though rather than range magic.

 

[Aelanis]: Aside from me grossly disliking being paraphrased in a way I hadn't spoken.

 

[Maliken]: When did this happen? If I did this please let me know. I don't like that stuff either. Bring up the quotes. I know for sure that I did not edit anything you've previously said. I re-read it and still couldn't see where i 'paraphrased' you.

Does "one button rotation derp derp" ring a bell? Grossly may have been a slight exaggeration, but you have been pretty condescending to most of the people who point out that they think your changes are less than spectacular.

[Aelanis]: I'm going to point back to my previous statement in this post that you didn't think about the consequences of changing Recklessness, or the fact that this proposed change still wouldn't grant the same Force regen. I don't want to go back to Thrash spam, and your suggestion would actually bring us quite close to 50% of our moves being Thrash.

 

[Maliken]: Yes thanks for the spellcheck feedback. I have decided to keep Sever Force, though I am looking at ways to changing it to a melee ability (double-bladed attack animation) to reach my complete vision for this advanced class. I'll update more later. This will help slightly with any risk of Thrash spamming arising again. Secondly, in regard to Recklessness, the proposed change should grant the same Force regen as Blackout did. Sorry for the confusion.

I'm still not sure you understand why tying Force regen to Recklessness is a bad idea. I'll try to explain again.

 

Deception's rotation is incredibly Force negative. At absolute best, you get ~3 Force back in a 6 second block, but only if all your Saber Strike blows actually hit. That's a Voltaic Slash > Saber Strike > Maul > Ball Lightning block right there. Worst case scenario, which happens very often, actually, is a VS > VS > Discharge > BL, which leaves you with 32 Force less than you had at the start of that block, which is just about 1/3 of your total resources in 6 seconds out of the 45 between Blackouts (where you can really suffer if you play it wrong). Thus, they need something they can use either frequently or something with a lock of kick to it to keep their Force bars in a good place. Or, they need to reduce costs, and therefore damage, to compensate, if their Force regen is going to go down.

 

Recklessness, in Deception, has the very special quality of have 60 seconds of its cooldown removed by leaving combat. Clever use/abuse of this trait can cause your damage to increase dramatically, as it begins to resemble an ability with a 15 second cooldown, not a 75 second one. Consequently, if you reduce the cooldown on it to be able to use it enough times to counteract losing Blackout, with Recklessness restoring a raw 30 Force, you bring the true cooldown to about 55 seconds. This allows you to use Recklessness, use up your charges, stealth out, and immediately use it again. If you can keep leaving combat (killing the 1 target you're in combat with, for example), you can effectively use it as if it had no cooldown, and your damage skyrockets. Conversely, if you were to simply increase the Force it gave back, you would turn it into almost a copy of Vent Heat/Adrenaline Probe, except that the classes that get those have a distinct need for them based on their design, whereas Assassins don't suffer nearly as much from overextending their resources. At that point, it's also too strong from a balance standpoint as well, since it's essentially a far more potent version of those abilities.

 

The only thing you could do to possibly make it work would be to restore some Force over time. At that point, though, it becomes a Blackout clone, except without the ability to play your Blackout/Cloak rotation intelligently, which is something that's really elegant about the Discipline as it plays right now.

[Aelanis]: That's now an actually reasonable suggestion. Kinda goes against the feel of a 30 meter interrupt if you have to be in melee to slow them, but Assassins have always been kinda strange.

 

[Maliken]: YES!!!! Yess!!!!!!!! The first feedback that has agreed with one of my proposals! Its true, the assassin/shadow has always been strange. Deep inside the subconscious, we know the gameplay is a bit strange. Something is off. Some of us can see the blurry Sasquatch in the distance that's causing this problem, and we move toward it to solve the riddle. My imagination is churning with this class and I think a few days from now I will have an even more clear picture of what needs to be done.

 

[Aelanis]: Except it IS dumbing down the game. It removes from you the ability to play smart...

 

[Maliken]: NO. It does NOT dumb down the game and it DOES NOT remove from you (the player) the ability to play smart.... How absurd....

We have different understandings of 'dumbing down' a game means. I previously stated that people vastly misinterpret the world 'mainstreaming', and I think this is a very good case of that happenstance. By removing a few abilities and merging a few mechanics around here and there, the synaptic weight becomes much lighter in chaotic moments of perception application. This doesn't mean less buttons = easier game and thus less intelligence required to play it and thus = more fun. It instead, maintains a healthy arsenal at the player's disposal (not 1 button....) in which most players can have higher perception accuracy when it comes down to what their enemies are doing and are soon to be doing. This is important for getting the EXPERIENCE that every good gaming company wants their players to have, but often times only veterans get to have it. In an ideal structure, majority of players should be able to have the foresight of their surroundings at about 0.75 to 1.33 seconds before hand, with at least 1 other player/enemy. Veterans can still have fun in this 'mainstreamed/simplified/pure' structure because they will have a higher foresight rating (approximately 1.33 to 4 seconds) and with more than 1 player/enemy. They will see more on the field of battle, and predict seconds ahead of time what is most likely to happen and then ACT ACCORDINGLY via applying their own artistic rendition of how they want to play that near future out. When the hotbar in a game isn't a synaptic cluster____, the capacity for artistic freedom becomes a beautiful part of the player's EXPERIENCE. Rather than having ''more is better, because if this happens, i can do this, and if that happens, i can do this instead, and if this and this happens, i can then hit this and that'', and so on and so forth. No, a clean hotbar with about 15 sensible abilities that have logical mechanics is much more objectively attractive to any human being, though most have no idea what I am talking about at this point I'm sure, as it requires critical thinking. That is, to not be insulting due to the reality of a deterministic reality but that is a tale for another time.

 

Look, if you remove the choice of using 2 abilities separately, where the other might not be necessary, you have just eliminated an option for the player to use, and that use can be very intelligent, and so you're pigeonholing them into using their resources less effectively than they could be. I fail to see how that isn't reducing the amount of skill/foresight necessary to play at an optimal level.

 

I'm also unsure as to where you're pulling this 29 number from. I use about 15 abilities in PvE in Deception with enough regularity to keybind them, being able to do things like Overload, Force Slow, Phase Walk, and Electrocute (in PvE) without needing them keybound. The number is slightly higher in Darkness and Hatred, but not significantly so, not to the point where there are 29 abilities. In PvP, this ability overload problem shows up a little bit, but your rotation should be, like mmerry said, muscle memory; you should never have to even think about it to use it. If not, you're simply not trying to get better at the game, and high level play is out of your reach, and no amount of ability bloat reduction will help you get better.

[mmerry]

I'm not going to quote anything since I'm on my phone and it's really tedious to do..

 

That being said, I want to touch on the ability overload problem that you seem to be having trouble with.

 

I will concede that if you have very little experience with a class or spec then yes you will have trouble fully experiencing everything in the game. I recently ran into this when I decided to learn the assault discipline on my commando. Compared to 2.x there was a new ability, different priorities, and a new offensive cooldown to juggle. After about an hour pounding out the basic rotation on the dummy I joined a SM op. Holy ****, it sucked, it was rough, I wasn't having fun.. My solution wasn't to give up and scrap my mando; I went back and hit the dummy until everything was muscle memory and I had seen how to fix myself if I messed something up. Now raiding on my mando is so much more enjoyable.

 

In PvP things are more chaotic to a degree. With experience you can generally predict what other players/teams will do though. When I PvP on my shadow I don't really have to make a conscious decision to pop the right cooldown, stealth out, or quickswap targets. It just happens now.

 

Basically my advice is to stop trying to come up with sweeping changes to a class that we have played for a very long time. Put in the time to master it and you may surprise your self..

[sumquy]

as a founding member of the i hate assassins club, i support op fully in this.

[Iona_Var]

as a founding member of the i hate assassins club, i support op fully in this.

 

except he's talking about doing this to ALL classes

[Warlord_Maliken]

[Maliken]: NO. It does NOT dumb down the game and it DOES NOT remove from you (the player) the ability to play smart.... How absurd....

 

[T_T_P]: I'd like to know what does dumbing down the game means to you?

 

[Maliken]: Dumbing down a game is removing abilities without maintaining a hotbar that allows the player to express a certain standard of artistic freedom which in turn must have a certain standard of synaptic quality, in which the average player can have at least a 0.75 second foresight of their surroundings - that specifically being the multitude and likelyhood of actions that are to be had by enemy sentients or a.i.. If the game has XY abilities removed and XY mechanic(s) inherited by other abilities all while the gameplay 'standard' is maintained (described above and in previous post), then the removal of said abilities is NOT dumbing down the game, but rather improving its quality drastically via augmenting the experience and artistic freedom of the player. The player will be more conscious of its present and future surroundings (ideally all the actions therein). The skill cap will be able to temper perception accuracy, recognizing the likelyhood and priorities of present and near future events. As I have said in a previous post, veteran players will have approximately 4 seconds of foresight with a high level of perception accuracy regarding multiple allies and enemies (rather than just 1). If you score high on this skill chart then I'm sorry to say but 15 abilities is certianly comfortable and by no means 'dumb and boring'. There is great complexity to be derived from simplcity done right. The focus is EXPERIENCE and SENSATION, something that previous posters have even stated that they don't have when playing this game. That isn't a good thing. The gaming company should strive to make those two attributes a reality for all players - leaving the skill cap metric to (1) general awareness and (2) perception foresight in regard to class templates and subconscious familiarity with one's arsenal.

 

Even with this wall of text, there will still be those (who may or may not lack critical thinking) who will still hold to:

"Look, if you remove an ability then you dumb down the game. BOOYAH"

"Get better and your hotbar will be part of your muscle memory. Then you won't want to remove anymore abilities."

*shrugs* Some brains just never change. They just stand there looking backwards half unconscious from the plane.

^ Meat Puppets - Backwater lyric twist. Feedback is always welcome, don't get the wrong idea, i just wanted to make a reference to that legendary song

Edited July 11, 2015 by Warlord_Maliken

[Iona_Var]

Sorry but there is no way you are going to sell anyone on the idea of having multiple abilities wrapped into just a few. I know I'm not the only one who likes how deception looks and feels when played(though our class in general could use some love in the right places). I wouldn't want ball lightning, discharge, and assassinate(as an example) wrapped up into one ability. Sometimes over simplifying for the sake of over simplifying is not needed or wanted. Pretty much everyone who has responded to you is completely opposed to your idea because they like having more choices and they don't want a 5 button rotation. Edited July 9, 2015 by Iona_Var

[mmerry]

"Get better and your hotbar will be part of your muscle memory. Then you won't to remove any abilities anymore."

 

Good good young one. You are finally learning. The path to true self consciousness is before you.

Edited July 10, 2015 by mmerry

[Warlord_Maliken]

"Get better and your hotbar will be part of your muscle memory. Then you won't to remove any abilities anymore."

Good good young one. You are finally learning.

 

I was quoting someone else, that was all. Don't be a silly goosey.

 

To Feydakin_, the post below me, that is a very interesting idea. I will think on that and get back to everyone. Thanks!

Edited July 10, 2015 by Warlord_Maliken

[Feydakin_]

Let's make Lightning and Surging Charge the same button, with the effects of the stance reflecting the spec of the assassin. That way we'll just have Tonkytonk and not-tonkytonk stances and I won't get in trouble when I always forget to set the new damn stance after changing damage specs. That should free up a button without affecting the assassin gameplay itself.

 

Next up, make all Legacy teleport to location abilities tied to a dropdown button on the minimap.

[Avicii]

The OP is certainly entitled to his opinion.

 

Despite his best attempts to shoot down any counter thought to his own, he has failed to provide any valid reason other then anecdotal responses and affirmation he wants the game to cater to the lowest common denominator. And based on his suggestions its pretty clear he doesn't have a good grasp on game play mechanics, ie comments like remove taunts and the like. OP appears more concerned with flavor and "feeling it in his bone®". Not with dynamic, fun combat.

 

The number of skills are not a problem, when you level a class you get them one or 2 at a time you place them, I can counter his confusing argument with my own anecdotal evidence of friends that are first time MMOers key binding as they go and learning just fine.

 

I for one do not want to see skills removed or merged. There are games that do this that one that wants this type of play can play. I hated when WoW did this. The OP liked it, it's clear we are different types of players. For those that want a clean UI with less skills there are games like GW2 and WS. Or Rift with their macro system.

 

At the end of BC with the Pre LK patch, with my hunter I could spec and play my class so I was able to slow, root, CC multiple targets. I recall in WSG a Rogue and I were coming up to the tunnel 5 enemies were closing in on us. I used my Spider to web the first, dropped a trap to get the 2nd one, concussive shot the 3rd one, reverse disengaged to to wing clip him, and scatter shot the next one. Freeing the rogue to take the flag home.

 

Once WoW started homogenizing and removing skills this type of play was no longer possible by removing melee skills since they were rarely used according to people like the OP such as wing clip. Then came pets getting their skills combined, next removing trees ect. I left the game in part due to the tuning for the LCD.

 

It's dandy the OP wants to play such a game but SWTOR currently is not that and judging from the responses the majority do not want the game to become that.

[Strikeheads]

I personally don't want to see some my abilities go away for ominous reasons. I love having many choices to make. To remove abilities from the game would take away all the choices I have to make. To be able to manage cooldowns, abilities, control, utility, etc, is what makes the game exciting not to mention that managing abilities is a part of the game. It's something that keeps me playing. It would be a very boring experience if there was little to nothing to manage.

 

I played WoW from start Wrath to near end of Mists. I was not too thrilled by the reducing of abilities and simplifying when Cata hit and when WoD came out, it really pissed me off how much they took out (Mists didn't prune too much, and the monk was awesome when Mists came, until they got shafted in WoD). A bunch of the classes in that game literally use 2 abilities. Yes, specs that really use 2 buttons . . . . . for over 70% of the time. I was really fed up with it and ended up quitting. There were other things that irritated me, but aside that, the pruning was a major factor in my decision to quit WoW.. As of right now, I won't even go back to WoW, especially in the sad state it's in.

 

I certainly for one do not want to see SWTOR dumb down, especially in the manner that WoW did.

[Warlord_Maliken]

[Avicii]: The OP is certainly entitled to his opinion. Despite his best attempts to shoot down any counter thought to his own, he has failed to provide any valid reason other then anecdotal responses...

 

[Maliken]: How ridiculous. Its a discussion. I am not shooting down anyone, I am responding and clarifying the logic and philosophy behind my decisions when I respond to someone. This is natural in a spellcheck system as this. There have been posters who have flat out changed my mind on a couple of the things I had previously listed and I am happy for that.

Also, what are you talking about when you say that I have failed to provide any valid reasons other than 'anecdotal responses'.... If by "anecdotal responses" you mean direct and in depth responses to micro-propositions that were brought forth by said poster. The person that is 'defending' his or her ideas is not 'shooting down' , or giving 'anecdotal responses', or being 'condescending' when responding. I find those choice of words to be rather crude and deceitful. Famed public speakers such as Sam Harris have to deal with such seemingly unfair accusations rather often and I do not envy that. I'll conclude with a statement I've already expressed. There have been posters here who have changed my mind on a few of my ideas through this very communicative method. I don't deal with data egocentrically in a sort of ping pong game of emotions, but rather vicariously, intuitively, and honestly.

 

[Avicii]:At the end of BC with the Pre LK patch, with my hunter I could spec and play my class so I was able to slow, root, CC multiple targets. I recall in WSG a Rogue and I were coming up to the tunnel 5 enemies were closing in on us. I used my Spider to web the first, dropped a trap to get the 2nd one, concussive shot the 3rd one, reverse disengaged to to wing clip him, and scatter shot the next one. Freeing the rogue to take the flag home.

 

[Maliken]: WoW has way better gameplay AND class balance than it had in BC and WotLK and most importantly, 'big plays' like you described above are still very possibly... The game isn't derp-a-derp by any means whatsoever..... (?)

 

[Avicii]: Once WoW started homogenizing and removing skills this type of play was no longer possible by removing melee skills since they were rarely used according to people like the OP such as wing clip. Then came pets getting their skills combined, next removing trees ect. I left the game in part due to the tuning for the LCD.

 

[Maliken]: Well this is awkward. That is simply not true. You can still make very clutch plays in world of warcraft. A side note of the game being better than its ever been in regard to gameplay and class balance is superfluous here but I had to say it again.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Warlord_Maliken

[T_T_P]

Why do you think people are against your suggestions so much? Think about this objectively before you answer.

[Warlord_Maliken]

Why do you think people are against your suggestions so much? Think about this objectively before you answer.

 

I know why but I cannot broadcast that answer for numerous reasons, one - it being superfluous to the topic of discussion in this thread.

Off that note, check out the main page again everyone. I have made a couple changes.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Warlord_Maliken

[LudhaninRolgge]

Why do you think people are against your suggestions so much? Think about this objectively before you answer.

Because the OP knows better than you what you want. And that's the main reason he can't tell it in public.

[CaraExas]

wtb a tl:dr

 

nvm found it

 

 

I've played sin/shadow for 2 minutes and found it hard. pls nerf so i can haz ez mode like uvry1 says the class is

Edited July 10, 2015 by CaraExas

[akisgood]

A lot of specs were already simplified at lvl 60 to the point of becoming thoroughly boring. Maybe the op should reroll powertech.

[T_T_P]

I know why but I cannot broadcast that answer for numerous reasons, one - it being superfluous to the topic of discussion in this thread.

Off that note, check out the main page again everyone. I have made a couple changes.

 

That is absolutely fine but then I can't take anything you say seriously. The real reason is quite easy to pick up from your answer anyway.

Edited July 10, 2015 by T_T_P

[Warlord_Maliken]

[Maliken]: NO. It does NOT dumb down the game and it DOES NOT remove from you (the player) the ability to play smart.... How absurd....

 

[T_T_P]: I'd like to know what does dumbing down the game means to you?

 

[Warlord_Maliken]: Dumbing down a game is removing abilities without maintaining a hotbar that allows the player to express a certain standard of artistic freedom which in turn must have a certain standard of synaptic quality, in which the average player can have at least a 0.75 second foresight of their surroundings - that specifically being the multitude and likelyhood of actions that are to be had by enemy sentients or a.i.. If the game has XY abilities removed and XY mechanic(s) inherited by other abilities all while the gameplay 'standard' is maintained (described above and in previous post), then the removal of said abilities is NOT dumbing down the game, but rather improving its quality drastically via augmenting the experience and artistic freedom of the player. The player will be more conscious of its present and future surroundings (ideally all the actions therein). The skill cap will be able to temper perception accuracy, recognizing the likelyhood and priorities of present and near future events. As I have said in a previous post, veteran players will have approximately 4 seconds of foresight with a high level of perception accuracy regarding multiple allies and enemies (rather than just 1). If you score high on this skill chart then I'm sorry to say but 15 abilities is certianly comfortable and by no means 'dumb and boring'. There is great complexity to be derived from simplcity done right. The focus is EXPERIENCE and SENSATION, something that previous posters have even stated that they don't have when playing this game. That isn't a good thing. The gaming company should strive to make those two attributes a reality for all players - leaving the skill cap metric to (1) general awareness and (2) perception foresight in regard to class templates and subconscious familiarity with one's arsenal.

 

Even with this wall of text, there will still be those (who may or may not lack critical thinking) who will still hold to:

"Look, if you remove an ability then you dumb down the game. BOOYAH"

"Get better and your hotbar will be part of your muscle memory. Then you won't want to remove anymore abilities."

*shrugs* Some brains just never change. They just stand there looking backwards half unconscious from the plane.

^ Meat Puppets - Backwater lyric twist. Feedback is always welcome, don't get the wrong idea.

 

[T_T_P]: Why do you think people are against your suggestions so much? Think about this objectively before you answer.

 

[Maliken]: I know why but I cannot broadcast that answer for numerous reasons, one - it being superfluous to the topic of discussion in this thread. Off that note, check out the main page again everyone. I have made a couple changes.

 

[T_T_P]: That is absolutely fine but then I can't take anything you say seriously. The real reason is quite easy to pick up from your answer anyway.

 

[Maliken]: If you feel that you are unable to take me seriously, that is your own right. I don't mind it. But I am a little perplexed because I sincerely responded to your previous post in which you asked me what my definition of 'dumbing down' actually was. I feel that I was very clear in my response so I am left now to a measly shrug. I guess this is where we part ways T_T__P(?).

 

P.S. Updated the original post with what I think would be a fabulous change for Shadow/Assassin. Check it out:

[Mind Crush] & [Vanquish] in Serenity spec will no longer respect the global cooldown when it procs. This proc was granted by the 'Force Strike' passive.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Warlord_Maliken