Roll

[TurtlesAWD]

This ability is still so obnoxious. It's more like a teleport. Against something like force speed if you're quick you can stop them from running, thus getting rewarded for quick reflexes. With this ability, an operative presses the button and they're already gone, it's too late, can't stop them. No visual indication an ability has been used except that they've literally teleported.

[Hei_Atzfel]

This ability is still so obnoxious. It's more like a teleport. Against something like force speed if you're quick you can stop them from running, thus getting rewarded for quick reflexes. With this ability, an operative presses the button and they're already gone, it's too late, can't stop them. No visual indication an ability has been used except that they've literally teleported.

 

The only time it shows them teleporting for me is the rare occasion that the engine bugs out because they rolled off of or to an awkward incline. That said yeah roll is better than Force Speed in that regard, but at least FS is a 15s CD root purge/immunity. It's all about trade offs.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Hei_Atzfel

[kissingaiur]

I hate when people complain about roll. It's a pretty ****** ability unlike Force Speed. I couldn't tell you how many times i have rolled down a hill and roll didn't work (rolled in place). Or how many times I have been roll bugged where someone pushes me back when I roll and I can't move my character. It's a super buggy ability while Force Speed is ridiculously amazing. I'll trade any day.

 

 

I will say the only advantage roll that it is x2. We can stagger rolls to adjust in kiting situations.

[Hei_Atzfel]

I hate when people complain about roll. It's a pretty ****** ability unlike Force Speed. I couldn't tell you how many times i have rolled down a hill and roll didn't work (rolled in place). Or how many times I have been roll bugged where someone pushes me back when I roll and I can't move my character. It's a super buggy ability while Force Speed is ridiculously amazing. I'll trade any day.

 

 

I will say the only advantage roll that it is x2. We can stagger rolls to adjust in kiting situations.

 

For healers and Lethality roll is meh. People complain about it because it's godly for Scrapper. That said I'd trade my sin's Force Speed for Scrapper roll any day, but to be fair I think any class/spec would trade their movement skill with Scrapper Scamper any day.

[Whojoo]

For healers and Lethality roll is meh. People complain about it because it's godly for Scrapper. That said I'd trade my sin's Force Speed for Scrapper roll any day, but to be fair I think any class/spec would trade their movement skill with Scrapper Scamper any day.

 

I like the Gunslinger/Sniper distance, I trade the extra 10 seconds for it to do 18m in one gcd any day. I know Scamper can get further, but I just like the Gunslinger/Sniper roll better.

But besides of that, yea I agree.

[Nefczi]

This ability is still so obnoxious. It's more like a teleport. Against something like force speed if you're quick you can stop them from running, thus getting rewarded for quick reflexes. With this ability, an operative presses the button and they're already gone, it's too late, can't stop them. No visual indication an ability has been used except that they've literally teleported.

 

Force speed breaks movement imparing effects and gives immunity to movements imparing effects for the duration(with utility), so the only way of stopping it is to stun.

Roll doesnt break roots and also can't be used while you are rooted. So you can prevent it more easly than Force Speed in the first place. Also you can always root/stun enemy after first roll, so its not exacly true that you cannot stop them.

Also Force Speed gives 150%(Edit: corrected) speed boost, so unless you have inhuman reflexes they should be eble to cover at least similiar distance to one roll before you manage to stun them.

 

Dont forget also that Sorcerer/Sage is a ranged class, while Operative/scoundrel is melee. Its kinda logical for a melee class to have better mobility than ranged class. Altho I would argue if roll is really that much superior to Force speed, both have its perks.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Nefczi

[Hei_Atzfel]

Force speed breaks movement imparing effects and gives immunity to movements imparing effects for the duration(with utility), so the only way of stopping it is to stun.

Roll doesnt break roots and also can't be used while you are rooted. So you can prevent it more easly than Force Speed in the first place. Also you can always root/stun enemy after first roll, so its not exacly true that you cannot stop them.

Also Force Speed gives 200% speed boost, so unless you have inhuman reflexes they should be eble to cover at least similiar distance to one roll before you manage to stun them.

 

Dont forget also that Sorcerer/Sage is a ranged class, while Operative/scoundrel is melee. Its kinda logical for a melee class to have better mobility than ranged class. Altho I would argue if roll is really that much superior to Force speed, both have its perks.

 

Force Speed is 150%, not 200%. Also roll grants 1.5s of immunity but only generates a 1s GCD, so if the Operative does two rolls back to back you actually can't stop him.

[Nefczi]

Force Speed is 150%, not 200%. Also roll grants 1.5s of immunity but only generates a 1s GCD, so if the Operative does two rolls back to back you actually can't stop him.

 

You are right, 150%, my bad. Altho it doesnt change anything what I wrote. Hmm, I was rooted/stunned many times after first roll, maybe becouse of lag, i dont know. Also only one discipline out of 3 gets that immunity.

 

Anyway, comparing two skills, on two fundamentally different classes is kinda pointless without looking at bigge rpicture. Even if those skills have similiar purpose. Its like comparing Force speed to force Charge for example, only cos they are mobility skills.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Nefczi

[kissingaiur]

You are right, 150%, my bad. Altho it doesnt change anything what I wrote. Hmm, I was rooted/stunned many times after first roll, maybe becouse of lag, i dont know. Also only one discipline out of 3 gets that immunity.

 

Anyway, comparing two skills, on two fundamentally different classes is kinda pointless without looking at bigge rpicture. Even if those skills have similiar purpose. Its like comparing Force speed to force Charge for example, only cos they are mobility skills.

 

I have been stunned many times when I try to roll. I get wrapped back in stun even though the full roll animation went off.

[Fellow-Canadian]

I think you'll find a scrapper scoundrel has a really high skill ceiling and their survival is entirely based on player skill. Other classes push a button and have god mode defenses but scrapper must time their rolls perfectly or they eat huge damage and die.

[Usif]

Roll is really powerful but please look at the other CD's this class has.

 

3 second melee dodge. Okay... Then shield probe which absorbs an average hit. Then you have.... wait, that's pretty much it. So yeah, they need roll! They don't have any other serious CD's.

 

Look at Assassins with their 5 seconds of force/tech immunity and 12 seconds of 50% melee defence chance + 12 seconds of CC immunity attached to that skill. Also force speed.

 

Like the poster above said, it's only as good as the player. Try playing a scrapper competitively and you'll see it's not all you have it pegged to be, it suffers from a lot of bugs.

 

The only place I'd say it's unessesary and over the top is huttball classic. It's 2 rolls from mid if you're on the top ramp and you're pretty much over the goal line. This is a bit to much and not sure if they intended the catapulting if you roll over an edge when they brought in the skill.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Usif

[Hei_Atzfel]

Look at Assassins with their 5 seconds of force/tech immunity and 12 seconds of 50% melee defence chance + 12 seconds of CC immunity attached to that skill.

 

1. Shroud lasts 3 seconds

2. Deflection has no CC immunity attached to it

 

In order to change either of those things you have to burn a Masterful utility (Shroud) or a Heroic utility (Deflection). Both of which have choices that are much better spent.

[Usif]

In order to change either of those things you have to burn a Masterful utility (Shroud) or a Heroic utility (Deflection). Both of which have choices that are much better spent.

 

Better spent? xD Do you pvp like .. ever? Shroud has arguably better talents for shroud, but there is the extra 0.5 seconds of force speed attached to the same trait too. It's an incredibly useful one. There is absolutely no better trait that the 12 seconds of CC immunity for deflection. It's by far one of the best utilities across all classes.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Usif

[Hei_Atzfel]

Better spent? xD Do you pvp like .. ever? Shroud has arguably better talents for shroud, but there is the extra 0.5 seconds of force speed attached to the same trait too. It's an incredibly useful one. There is absolutely no better trait that the 12 seconds of CC immunity for deflection. It's by far one of the best utilities across all classes.

 

I PvP all the time, thanks. And yeah, Disjunction for DPS is a near worthless utility unless your entire point is trolling people. And yeah, there are far better talents than Dark Stability. They're called Shroud of Madness and Haunted Dreams. As for what's better than Disjunction in Masterful, they're called Emersion, Fade, and Audacity.

[Usif]

If you were left alone for the whole fight then sure, they will pull you ahead for dps numbers, but not going to help when you're stunlocked and getting focused. Staying unstunned and alive for 5-10 seconds longer means you can put out loads more dps. Especially in ranked against hard switch burst comps

[Hei_Atzfel]

If you were left alone for the whole fight then sure, they will pull you ahead for dps numbers, but not going to help when you're stunlocked and getting focused. Staying unstunned and alive for 5-10 seconds longer means you can put out loads more dps. Especially in ranked against hard switch burst comps

 

You have Phasewalk to counter a hardswap. Deflection immunity is redundant and better spent on insta WW to aid your own team's burst.

[Usif]

Saying its redundant is laughable. I personnaly love the instant ww and use it for regs and the occasional ranked. But it loses it's benifit in solo ranked with it being broken by people 70% of the time. A good team ranked will be able to get the healer to clense it if they are on voice. 12 seconds of stun immunity is uncounterable. if you have your deflection on and get stunned, it has 0 benifit. All melee and ranged attacks get through while stunned and you've wasted a good portion of your CD and potentially been bursted down when you evidently needed the DCD because you popped it in the first place.

 

This discussion really doesn't belong here and I'm kinda banging my head against the wall. Really cba replying to any more sweeping statements.

 

The thread is about Roll and if it's OP. I drew the the comparison to the Sins very strong DCDs to illustrate it's not that OP a DCD, compared to most other classes.

[FoE_Khorne]

IMO All you can do for anyone that complains about the roll, is tell them to try playing it at lvl 60... then to come back and cry about it. Against anyone that knows what they are doing, it can be effectively countered.

 

Oh and the ROLL bug still exists. Even just yesterday I somehow managed to be roll bugged while playing concealment.... which should be impossible since you are immune, but biologic. GG

[Technohic]

Any class that is worth playing has something to cry about. Always will be. Hell, they used to whine about this class pre exfiltrate and after the 1.2 Era nerf even.

[FoE_Khorne]

Any class that is worth playing has something to cry about. Always will be. Hell, they used to whine about this class pre exfiltrate and after the 1.2 Era nerf even.

Team of stunlocking operatives™

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

1. Shroud lasts 3 seconds

2. Deflection has no CC immunity attached to it

 

In order to change either of those things you have to burn a Masterful utility (Shroud) or a Heroic utility (Deflection). Both of which have choices that are much better spent.

 

Not really... There's not much else that Assassin's have for PvP utilities... 5s of Force Shroud is like a miniature God Bubble against Powertechs and Operatives. and Deflection is the same for Marauders and Juggernauts.

[Saikochoro]

I think you'll find a scrapper scoundrel has a really high skill ceiling and their survival is entirely based on player skill. Other classes push a button and have god mode defenses but scrapper must time their rolls perfectly or they eat huge damage and die.

 

This is what makes roll such a neat ability. It has several applications and the player must have fairly good knowledge of all classes to be able to use it effectively. I like having my main defense be something other than "pop shield and continue fighting."

[Saikochoro]

Not really... There's not much else that Assassin's have for PvP utilities... 5s of Force Shroud is like a miniature God Bubble against Powertechs and Operatives. and Deflection is the same for Marauders and Juggernauts.

 

Saber ward for juggs and marauders is actually better than deflection (without dark stability). Deflection, without the utility, only grants 50% white damage defense. Saber ward offers that plus 25% yellow damage mitigation. Juggs get 100% white damage defense for the first two seconds of saber ward. Saber ward > deflection.

 

I personally will take fade over disjunction. Being able to cloak more often > longer shroud and speed IMO. I will also sometimes take audicity over both of those. But I usually take emersion and fade in masterful.

 

I think people overrate force shroud. I can't tell you how many sins I have killed while they have shroud active. It has an absolute counter....white damage. In fact, I laugh to myself when a sin shrouds when I am playing my mara, jugg, sniper, merc, sin, and even sometimes my pt. Now it does suck if you are a sorc or operative, but every other class has meaningful white damage they can use while the sin has shroud up. That said, I do believe shroud is a powerful dcd, but people still overrate it....it is not god mode.

 

I do disagree with Hei about dark stability though. That is utility should have never existed. Haunted dreams is nice in strictly coordinated play, but it is broken 70%+ of the time. Being free from stuns & mezzes for an extra 12 seconds is most definitely a very powerful utility.