Miyran Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 You're taking this God an Vitiate thing way out of proportion.The theory is bunk, leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunctatorg Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 (edited) You're taking this God and Vitiate thing way out of proportion.The theory is bunk, leave it at that. Well, I certainly took it way out of proportion but ... ... it was funny and ... ... it also revealed that the morality criteria might change if "something" like immortality would be in the air!... ; extremely intense morale dilemmas would come out of "nowhere" ... ... though all this reminds me of ... Macbeth and his unconscious but strongest guilt... It's pure metaphysics of course, neither falsifiable nor testable... By the way I wrote down a few posts at the following thread http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=817833 including a good (imho) one at the middle of page 4 there! Edited June 21, 2015 by cunctatorg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joluka Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 This is why we can't have nice things like the Internet or games... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangetorix Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Star Wars is based off of a Japanese story....this I knew. Star Wars has similar mechanism to the Godfather...okay. What I don't quite get is the analysis of Vitiate. In the book "Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan," it is discovered that the planet on which Vitiate performed his ritual literally stripped away the force on this planet. Obi-Wan says in the first movie how the force is "an energy that surrounds all living things....it binds the galaxy together." If we think of the two aspects of the force as light or dark we invariably come to the dichotomy of creation and destruction. Anakin was supposed to sit upon the throne of balance and keep these forces in check, and he chose not to. Remember Darth Nihilus from KOTOR II? He was essentially after the same thing that Vitiate is, sans immortality. ''if anything, Vitiate is the personification of the dark side, ie, destruction. Like a walking, talking black hole (don't fret with me about specifics of a black hole, I'm sure you get the idea of what I mean). I don't understand your point that Vitiate is: 1.above light and dark 2. his parents saved him or something? can you elaborate on that? 3. Has 'weak' and 'strong' immortality? What does this mean again? 4. And how does Valkorion fight into this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jduensing Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) Regarding Vitiate saying (implicitly) that "he wants to destroy all life in the galaxy just because he thinks all life is made to boost his immortality" you have to pay a visit to the game and read again Codex/Persons of note/Vitiate... Well, I ain't sure that Vitiate is as evil as Darth Sidious!! Why?!? Darth Sidious planned to build the Galactic Empire in order just to satisfy the petty ambitions of him, he destroyed all potential rivals in order to satisfy his meaningless narcissism: he planned to build the Galactic Empire in order to become an Emperor, period. I know a lot of persons who don't care to become Emperors (or extremely powerful) but I know nobody who could achieve both "weak and strong immortality" and he wouldn't care to achieve that state, only psychotic people with strong suicide tendencies would be indifferent about that option... You want to pass judgement on Vitiate regarding his actions in order to achieve immortality, both "weak" and "strong"; your religious beliefs aside, would you refuse to destroy one ... country or something like that if you knew that this way you would become completely immortal?!? To be honest, in the best case scenario I don't know what I would decide regarding this very issue; thankfully we neither can achieve immortality one way or another nor we have such sweet, angelic fantasies, the most of us, that is!... Consider also this immortality issue as a metaphor regarding a "projection" of the grandeur and invincibility of our society to ourselves; it's not a quite rare defense mechanism every now and then, you know... Can I also just clarify that mainstream Christianity does not believe the devil was loosed upon humanity to tempt them, but rather he rebelled and God, doing as he does, never directly interferes with a beings free will. This whole theory makes no sense at all. And until the disney canon destruction, the sith empire was one part petty ambition and one part unite the galaxy and prepare for the yuuzhan vong, which Sidious knew were coming to the galaxy. In a way Sidious was almost an anti-hero of sorts, which is awesome. Edited June 23, 2015 by Jduensing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangetorix Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Can I also just clarify that mainstream Christianity does not believe the devil was loosed upon humanity to tempt them, but rather he rebelled and God, doing as he does, never directly interferes with a beings free will. This whole theory makes no sense at all. I suppose mainstream Christianity does not, however it is believed by theologists that "Satan" from Christianity is derived from the Judaic "Shataan," The Adversary. This being was loosed on mankind to tempt them to falling to darkness. NOTE: don't know about spelling of Shataan but it's pronounced SHA-TAWN, I believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrixHiraeth Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) I like theology. A comparison of God to anything which didn't always exist, or won't always exist, doesn't work. God isn't immortal, He is eternal. Big difference. But then, it could be supposed that everything is eternal, for everything is an eternal thought in the mind of God. Anyone or anything ascending to become the same as "The Christian God" is impossible, since in order to be God one would have to have always been God. Also, using human morality to rationalize the motivations of God is something akin to trying to put the north wind in a box. In fact, only three words can be used to accurately define God: omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Any words beyond these three are just our attempts to wrap our heads around these incomprehensible ideas. My point is, "The Christian God" is not a useful frame of reference when talking about something like the Sith Emperor. The only thing in Star Wars that I know of that might bear some comparison to "The Christian God" is the Force itself. Edited June 24, 2015 by Ymris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangetorix Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 My point is' date=' "The Christian God" is not a useful frame of reference when talking about something like the Sith Emperor. The only thing in Star Wars that I know of that might bear some comparison to "The Christian God" is the Force itself.[/quote'] Well, I agree for the most part here. Specifically in terms of a creator, though, if Vitiate has become a being attempting to destroy all life and the force with it (he doesn't say in the game I don't think, but his immortal ritual stripped away the force itself that planet from the Revan book, so I don't see how it's not only a distinct possibility, but IMO is probable) and if the force itself could be compared with a creator, then comparing Vitiate to an anti-creator does seem appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunctatorg Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Star Wars is based off of a Japanese story....this I knew. Star Wars has similar mechanism to the Godfather...okay. ........................ ........................ Remember Darth Nihilus from KOTOR II? He was essentially after the same thing that Vitiate is, sans immortality. ''if anything, Vitiate is the personification of the dark side, i.e, destruction. Like a walking, talking black hole (don't fret with me about specifics of a black hole, I'm sure you get the idea of what I mean). I don't understand your point that Vitiate is: 1.above light and dark 2. his parents saved him or something? can you elaborate on that? 3. Has 'weak' and 'strong' immortality? What does this mean again? 4. And how does Valkorion fight/fit into this? Please, dear Comrades in Arms: consider that I have also PvP Warzones and Arenas to run!... lol Many masterpieces of the world literature are centered at the issue of the fear of loss of the beloved persons and the corresponding choices, all of which seeming sometimes to be either bad or worst; I wrote about Apostle Paul's argument regarding the very existence of the "afterlife" and I must also mention Homer's both works, Iliad and Odyssey... Goethe's "Faust" is about the fear of death and also the fear of solitude, the impotency to satisfy your tendencies and the corresponding options, all of them bad ... not to mention Shakespeare's Hamlet or King Lear or even Romeo and Juliette; Hamlet is in danger to lose his honor and his self-respect, the basis (one foundation) of the "healthy narcissism" of him; King Lear's end is marked by the loss of Cordelia etc. Akira Kurosawa's (almost?) perfect masterpiece "The Hidden Fortress" is about the struggle to make amends with a most severe loss and I also pointed out this very theme in Thomas Harris' (and particularly Anthony Hopkins') masterpieces about Hannibal Lecter ... but the real list is very long!! Now let me try to answer your concrete questions: 1. imho one of the main ideas of the SW masterpiece is that both Light and Dark alone may come to be out of balance!! I know that you dislike this interpretation of mine but think about that: Darth Sidious personifies the pure Darkness, it's something like an agent of the ... Devil, going more and more insane and sadistic but he fails (of course) to keep the balance; Master Yoda personifies the pure Light but he also fails to prevent the loss of the balance!! It is another person who had to sacrifice himself and even his connection with both Light and Darkness in order to restore the balance!! Well, Darth Vader embraced the Light eventually but he had to embrace the Dark Side of the Force in order to be able eventually to save the balance... 2. I wrote a lot about that "proposal" of mine and you had just to read carefully my corresponding posts in order to get both my proposal (regarding the version of the sacrifice of Darth Vitiate's parents in order to buy their child some time) and my arguments... 3.By the term "weak immortality" I mean the state of a sentient who can't die because of any disease or even aging!! In fact this being fully controls his/her aging processes! However the "weakly immortal" can be murdered, killed or executed ... and die for good because of that! On the contrary a "strongly immortal" being can neither die because of diseases etc. nor even killed!! This distinction is about a fundamental difference with extremely important artistic repercussions and all: the "weakly immortal" is much more anxious about his very life and safety than any mortal being!!... Am I wrong?!? On the contrary the "strongly immortal" being is almost "fear-free" for obvious reasons!... Take notice also that these terms are perhaps mine but the whole artistic concept comes from the SW:TOR authors... 4. Valcorion should be (almost) the same person with Darth Vitiate; period!! Valcorion comes to the scene only when Vitiate had achieved "strong immortality" (regarding the events on Yavin IV) and even gained more powerful abilities regarding the "Force Cataclysm" on Ziost!! Otherwise we should accept that BioWare created the "strongly immortal" ex-Sith Emperor Vitiate in order just to somehow terminate (!!) Him and just after that to sell us -out of nowhere- another "immortal" (!!) Emperor, someone with another name who runs an Empire that also came out of nowhere!!... If Valcorion is Vitiate, then He has created the Empire of Zakuul the same way He had created the Empire of the True Sith... The main differences between Vitiate and Valcorion are: i) Vitiate was only "weakly immortal" and therefore He was too anxious and pretty dark; when Vitiate became "strongly immortal" at last, He was able to present His Valcorion persona in the SW:TOR galaxy!! ii) Vitiate actually has been treated (imho) as bantha-fodder in terms of artistic significance, Valcorion should be -at last- ART within this very MMORPG!! However neither Vitiate nor Valcorion intend to consume all life in the SW galaxy; this is perhaps feasible by them but it could put their immortality (or their health) in jeopardy; they need a lot of life in the SW galaxy in order to continuously consume a minimal portion of the Force and sustain their existence... Edited June 27, 2015 by cunctatorg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunctatorg Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Can I also just clarify that mainstream Christianity does not believe the devil was loosed upon humanity to tempt them, but rather he rebelled and God, doing as he does, never directly interferes with a being's free will. This whole theory (note: of yours?of mine? of mainstream Christianity?) makes no sense at all. And until the Disney "Canon destruction", the Sith Empire was one part petty ambition and one part united the galaxy and prepared for the Yuuzhan Vong, which Sidious knew were coming to the galaxy. In a way Sidious was almost an anti-hero of sorts, which is awesome. Well, Theology is neither an experimental science nor even something like Mathematics; that's -at least- my opinion. I mean that definitions regarding Theology's issues are a little bit vague and therefore the reasoning isn't as solid as mathematical reasoning. The main source of theological reasoning seems to be the influence of the great man who introduces the religious ideas and such... Anyways, I ain't a religious person and I ain't convinced that the religious ideas are but an illusion, a "defense mechanism" (in the Freudian sense) which sometimes comes to be useful and sometimes comes to be harmful and destructive... However this "defense mechanism" obviously spans the existence of the human race ... and I bet, it will do "from here to eternity"... Taking into consideration my point about the relative nature of the theological reasoning, I have to point out that not only the God of Christianity but also the God of every existing monotheistic religion is supposedly eternal and more, He is also omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, even absolutely righteous and benevolent. I completely agree with you that mainstream Christianity says so about the Devil and all... My obvious objection here: God, being omniscient, obviously knows "from the very start" that the Devil is going to envy Him and revolt against His Dominion and all; God, being omnipotent obviously must be able to terminate the Devil at any time ... or even He must be able -from the very start- to cancel Devil's "birth" because mainstream Christianity considers all angels (including Devil and the other fallen angels) as Creatures, as God's creations. Anyways God decides not to terminate the fallen angels but to create the (physical) Universe including not only the Nature (including not only matter/energy but also space and even time ... according not only Albert Einstein's theory of General Relativity but also Saint Augustine's reasoning) but also the sentient... My question is obvious: how this is different from my very interpretation, regarding the very Devil's very mission and even Devil's reason of existence?!? I also want to notice that God's creation seems to be imperfect which is fine by me and by Christians also: the Creature isn't perfect because only God is perfect. I just want to point out that God is without envy but His angelic creatures have envy and such... It is also obvious that questions regarding God's ability to create perfect creatures, questions regarding the very reason of the Creation -and even God's ability to eliminate Himself within His omnipotence- are meaningless, the last one being also blasphemous... I just want to point out that once I had a conversation with a sick person, a borderline one who previously had suffered a serious psychotic incident (including strongest religious belief and even "determination", equally strongest guilt, ideas of "direct" communication with God, constant praising including catatonic movement and such; when I asked him once about the ability of the (supposedly) omniscient God to eliminate Himself, he ... laughed in a sadistic manner, giving strongest evidence of his hate against God! Well, I had (somehow) figured that (thus I wasn't astonished though this fundamental ambiguity of him is quite impressive) but I make this very reference because I believe that the love for God may become harmful but hate for God is (always) a strong evidence of serious psychopathology... I 'm just trying to be honest and even humble, to keep the balance that is; my belief is that the relationship with the "imago", the idea of God (which possesses an extreme dynamics, a "psychodynamics"...) and particularly the balance of that relationship is of fundamental importance... Anyways, I don't want to open any theological discussion in a SW Forum and particularly in a SW:TOR Forum; consider please that post of mine as a parenthesis just to bring light to the artistic theme and nothing more... Well, George Lucas' Darth Sidious isn't some kind of an anti-hero, the whole Yuuzhan Vong thing is just an artistic abomination and it isn't Canon, George Lucas' work is/was Canon... George Lucas' Darth Sidious is neither Stalin nor Mao or Deng, Darth Sidious is neither Don Vito Corleone nor his son Michael; Darth Sidious is neither Hannibal Lecter nor even Hannibal Barca or Oliver Cromwell or Lenin; he's just a means to an end, this very end being the reflections on Dictatorship and Republic ... AND the fate and the options of gifted individuals within out-of-balance human societies! Edited June 28, 2015 by cunctatorg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunctatorg Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) I like theology. A comparison of God to anything which didn't always exist, or won't always exist, doesn't work. God isn't immortal, He is eternal. Big difference. But then, it could be supposed that everything is eternal, for everything is an eternal thought in the mind of God. Anyone or anything ascending to become the same as "The Christian God" is impossible, since in order to be God one would have to have always been God. Also, using human morality to rationalize the motivations of God is something akin to trying to put the north wind in a box. In fact, only three words can be used to accurately define God: omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Any words beyond these three are just our attempts to wrap our heads around these incomprehensible ideas. My point is, "The Christian God" is not a useful frame of reference when talking about something like the Sith Emperor. The only thing in Star Wars that I know of that might bear some comparison to "The Christian God" is the Force itself. I don't particularly enjoy to speak Theology but I am able to do so... Well, I have already and explicitly written down (in posts within this thread) everything you wrote down except the obvious idea regarding the connection between God and the Force; however God (of Christianity etc.) isn't supposed to possess two sides but there are the two sides of the Force... Well, I wrote down similar ideas in the previous post of mine. However the comparison of (eternal and even beyond space-time, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, even absolutely benevolent and therefore absolutely righteous) God to the "strongly immortal and very powerful" Emperor of the Empire of Zakuul not only works but it's also extremely fruitful and clarifying!! It's the best way to point out both the supposed similarities and the existing differences!! After all, Valcorion unconsciously should wonder about these differences... Edited June 27, 2015 by cunctatorg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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