Cambiata Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 This is a design choice in the game that is constantly annoying me, yet as you put out more cartel armor there seems little chance that Bioware is ever going to stop: Why is every good chest piece ruined with a buttflap, a backpack, a loincloth, or all three? Sometimes they're ruined with ugly and unnecessary shoulder pieces, but that happens less often since some of the shoulder pieces are really quite cool. Example: the cartel item Primeval Stalker Jacket has really cool spikey shoulder pads and fur colar, and a really uncool terrible buttflap. Even the backpack isn't always bad, like for example the new Freedon Nadd Breastplate: really cool metal wings as a backpack, and really uncool terrible buttflap with uncool terrible loin cloth. I look at these armors and see how they're so close to being the coolest pieces of armor in the game... only to be ruined by buttflap and/or loincloth. I don't understand why the armor designers keep doing this. It's not as if the game handles things like this very well - the game has had clipping issues from launch that have never been fixed, and still you guys are designing armor that clips by default. Don't the armor designers have access to the game to see what their designs do on real characters? Can you guys at least make alternate versions of every armor piece that just removes everything "below the belt"? I'm guessing you must have some group of people that likes buttflaps, but do they have to be catered to in EVERY new cartel pack? Are they that rabid a fanbase? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom_Quantum Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) I share this complaint. Buttflaps (and to a lesser extent, loincloths) are far too prevalent, and they just don't look good. My go-to example of this is the Expert Fighter Harness and the Vintage Brawler Harness. Here you have a really neat chest harness that has an inexplicable and pointless buttflap. On top of it, the buttflap is bugged and randomly loses its coloration in preview, and in cutscenes where it looks ultra-terrible. If they would just delete the buttflap the two armors would be grand, instead they sit unused in my collection because they look like garbage. But the very long buttflaps, such as on the new Primeval Stalker armor set are even worse. These hang down while the character is mounted, clipping right through most of the mounts in the game and looking completely stupid. If the clipping issue can't be fixed, then why stick long buttflaps on so many armors? They look bad while the character is running, and they look absolutely horrible while the character is mounted. The bottom line is that I don't want my character's chest armor covering up anything below the waist. Particularly now that we have a costume designer and I have full control over the whole set that I am presenting, there is simply no use for all these chest pieces that have random garbage hanging down over the lower half of the character. Someone should tell your art team that while these designs may look awesome in the drawings they make, they do not translate into awesomeness in the actual game engine. Maybe show them what buttflaps (and even capes, which also look bad in this engine even on ultra graphics settings) actually look like as a finished in game project. Start working within the limitations of the game engine - flappy bits don't look great, guys - but all the non flappy bits do look great so why ruin the look? Edited June 13, 2015 by Tom_Quantum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDutchman Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 My biggest complaint isn't the presence of such things (there are some I don't mind at all) it's the fact they are attached to the chest piece and not the belt where it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambiata Posted June 13, 2015 Author Share Posted June 13, 2015 My biggest complaint isn't the presence of such things (there are some I don't mind at all) it's the fact they are attached to the chest piece and not the belt where it should be. This is a good point. Some people may like the half-skirt as it's supported in the lore (ie a Kama), but even the lore says that your butt skirt is hung from your belt, not an extension of your chest piece. Moving them to the belt gives the best of both worlds: if you love butt flaps, you can easily show them off with your butt flap belt. If you like everything about the armor except the butt flaps, you can easily get that by using a different belt. Even if (when?) they implement such a strategy to keep both camps happy, they should still include non-butt flap belts. I think the biggest problem with the butt flaps is the designers seem to feel that every new armor set needs the buttflap. It should be a design that's used far less often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambiata Posted June 13, 2015 Author Share Posted June 13, 2015 Also, regarding clipping, it's not just mounts that clip the buttflap. Any class that wears its weapon at the belt level will constantly see their weapon clip through the buttflap when walking. So that automatically means that Bounty Hunters, smugglers, and any class that wears a lightsaber can't wear them without looking terrible. That pretty much only leaves Agents and troopers who can wear them (well, and any vibrosword weilding jedi or sith). Why would you make so many armors in the game that something like 75% of the population can't wear? The hip-weapon clipping is probably the reason why buttflaps aren't more prevalent on mandolorian armors in the game, despite the fact that that kama thingy is a mando tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panegyrist Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 My biggest complaint isn't the presence of such things (there are some I don't mind at all) it's the fact they are attached to the chest piece and not the belt where it should be. Exactly this - if everything below the waist was attached to a belt instead of a chest, then people could choose to have the flaps or not just by changing belts. Backpacks could use a toggle maybe, or more chests could come with and without the backpack (like the stuff on the BBA rep vendor). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambiata Posted June 13, 2015 Author Share Posted June 13, 2015 Oh yeah, another thing that front and back flaps clip through - if you wear any of the skirt bottoms, then the flaps will clip through it in such a way that makes it impossible to wear those pieces together. So again, adding the buttflap just limits who can wear an item. The whole fun of the cartel market is mixing and matching outfits until you get the look you want - why would you design armor meant to destroy that possibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrikorMcStrikey Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Buttflaps are a blight on galactic purity! You, buttflap, you are a blight! In all seriousness, I've lost track of the number of times I've found a nice looking armor only to have it ruined by some pointless buttflap, loincloth, or backpack (ridiculous shoulderpads are also an issue, but not as prevalent). I do like the idea of moving the first two to the belt. It would give belts some noticeable variety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShyNyny Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) My main complaint is how they clip. They clip through everything. ALWAYS. Want to use a chestpiece with kama, or one of the dancer tops, with lower robes? Nope. Clipping. Even pieces that are DESIGNED TO GO TOGETHER clip, and clip horribly. I just want to be able to wear the Voss set, sans clipping. Or one of the dancer tops with a tasteful skirt, sans clipping. Edited June 14, 2015 by ShyNyny the =/= they Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambiata Posted June 14, 2015 Author Share Posted June 14, 2015 Even though I really hate the design choice of the buttflap, I can still agree that clipping is an eternal issue in the game that should have been addressed long ago. I just think, at this point, that the limitations of the engine have made "fix the clipping" a basically impossible task. I think that knowing that as the designers should by now, they should therefore be designing around the problem. It's partly why I don't understand the costume design team's love affair with the buttflap. The engine will utterly ruin your sleek design. You'd think that after the first couple of times of seeing the monstrous clipping in their designs... maybe after the first year the game was out... that the designers would adjust their art accordingly so that the glaring incompetence of the engine wouldn't be so on display. All game design must involve a certain amount of trickery and finesse in order to make things seem more real and beautiful than they are. You'd think the designers would be equally aware and involved in that process, understanding what the engine can and cannot do, and not just insisting, over and over again, to make designs that the engine by all evidence cannot cope with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesirableTom Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 I actually like some butt flaps myself (I couldn't type that with a straight face...), but loincloths and backpacks... Not so much. There are some backpacks I can tolerate, but loincloths are almost always a "no" for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnkiduNineEight Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 My biggest complaint isn't the presence of such things (there are some I don't mind at all) it's the fact they are attached to the chest piece and not the belt where it should be. So, you may want to re-think this position as with human fashion in the 'real world' jackets etc have butt-flaps. There are no belts with flaps. I understand that some of you dislike the flaps. Other people like them. If you are going to ask for this, ask for two versions of the equipment and don't whine about BioWare 'trying to nickel and dime us' by having 'reskins' of the same equipment. Just because you don't like something for an aesthetic reason does not mean _everyone else_ shares your opinion. Just because a few people on an internet forum agree with you, does not mean there exists some form of quorum justifying your requested changes. DO NOT remove the butt-flaps, backpacks etc. Make versions of the same equipment without them. And they are not part f the 'belt'. When I wear a tux w/tails the tails are part of the jacket, not the cummerbund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambiata Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 So, you may want to re-think this position as with human fashion in the 'real world' jackets etc have butt-flaps. There are no belts with flaps. I understand that some of you dislike the flaps. Other people like them. If you are going to ask for this, ask for two versions of the equipment and don't whine about BioWare 'trying to nickel and dime us' by having 'reskins' of the same equipment. Just because you don't like something for an aesthetic reason does not mean _everyone else_ shares your opinion. Just because a few people on an internet forum agree with you, does not mean there exists some form of quorum justifying your requested changes. DO NOT remove the butt-flaps, backpacks etc. Make versions of the same equipment without them. And they are not part f the 'belt'. When I wear a tux w/tails the tails are part of the jacket, not the cummerbund. First of all, if you read the actual thread you'll see that no one is insisting that they delete all buttflaps forever in perpetuity. You like your funny little half-butt tab on your vintage brawler gear, go to town. The problem that is being complained about is that they have decided to put weird butt tabs on almost all the cartel gear, and no matter how much affection you have for the butt tab, you don't need to have every piece of gear. Other people can get good gear sometimes, too, it's not going to cause you to die, I promise. Secondly, you're bringing up the one case where the bottom half really should attach to the top, when there's something like a tuxedo or a coat. That I don't object to most of the time. I have the saul karath armor on my one of my toons, dyed blue, and it looks slick as hell. No one in this thread has even mentioned examples like that, but that is an example of "butt flap" done right and appropriately. The specific example we're talking about is where the buttflap in no way goes with the rest of the gear, so it's not like it "has" to go on the chest piece. In the cases where they're obviously trying to do a Kama, your analogy to a tux makes even less sense, since the kama is actually worn from the belt. Third of all, "give additional options" is exactly what most of us are asking for. So you don't have to come in here like you're dropping a Truth Bomb and tell us that we aren't allowed to remove all the buttflaps. Options are what is being asked for here, not the removal of everything you ever loved. Chill the **** out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xakthul Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Buttflaps are a blight on galactic purity! You, buttflap, you are a blight! I giggled. Mad Prophet for prez. Aaaaaaanyway, there are quite a few armors where the buttflaps actually look good (the Energized/Galvanized Merc sets are an example), and I can appreciate those... But the ones with the beautiful furry designs don't need flaps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntegrationArch Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 (edited) SWTOR/EA Developers --> How hard would it be to "HIDE Loincloth/flapps" option like we already have for Headgear please? If it's an unlock for subs only or a cartel Item it would be very popular. Or just sell alternate gear without them? For example just look how popular the toothpick was before that option was available. Yes poster is correct, the heavy graphics corruption all the time for the loincloth and flaps makes the character illustration look unfinished and primative. On of the most ridiculous hanging flaps occurs unnaturally when a toon is on a mount and the cloth is dragging on the ground but there are numerous other examples posted above. Edited June 15, 2015 by IntegrationArch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHboy Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 SWTOR/EA Developers --> How hard would it be to "HIDE Loincloth/flapps" option like we already have for Headgear please? If it's an unlock for subs only or a cartel Item it would be very popular. Or just sell alternate gear without them? For example just look how popular the toothpick was before that option was available. Yes poster is correct, the heavy graphics corruption all the time for the loincloth and flaps makes the character illustration look unfinished and primative. On of the most ridiculous hanging flaps occurs unnaturally when a toon is on a mount and the cloth is dragging on the ground but there are numerous other examples posted above. gah, if you want people to read your posts, try not using impossible to read colors on black background. only thing worse than dark blue on black is yellow on white. nothing to add just wanted to know tha,t boy, that was a horrible choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambiata Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 Bumping this sucker. Hatred of the buttflap must be known! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Bumping this sucker. Hatred of the buttflap must be known! Just remember the first and most important rule of MMO armor and clothing design: it must cause players to look at it and say "This would look really cool if only it did not have <feature X>." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiayra Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 I just don't understand why the Freedon Nadd Breastplate gives my male Sith Warrior a humongous butt. I take the top off and put it back on and it looks like the character is wearing a Renaissance period bum roll costuming piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heromofo Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 SWTOR/EA Developers --> How hard would it be to "HIDE Loincloth/flapps" option like we already have for Headgear please? If it's an unlock for subs only or a cartel Item it would be very popular. Or just sell alternate gear without them? For example just look how popular the toothpick was before that option was available. Yes poster is correct, the heavy graphics corruption all the time for the loincloth and flaps makes the character illustration look unfinished and primative. On of the most ridiculous hanging flaps occurs unnaturally when a toon is on a mount and the cloth is dragging on the ground but there are numerous other examples posted above. This really hide backpacks as well just options to hide them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithros Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 The problem that is being complained about is that they have decided to put weird butt tabs on almost all the cartel gear, and no matter how much affection you have for the butt tab, you don't need to have every piece of gear. Almost all of it, eh? Do you have an actual count? How many pieces of cartel gear have a buttflap versus how many do not, or is this just so much hyperbole? I know that when I have wanted flap-free gear, I have had no problems finding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alsyienne Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Since most pants in this game are skin-tight, and I do not enjoy looking at butt cracks or crotch bulges, I am a fan of anything that covers it up. ALL of my characters have some kind of skirt so I don't have to stare at their perky rear end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Since most pants in this game are skin-tight, and I do not enjoy looking at butt cracks or crotch bulges, I am a fan of anything that covers it up. ALL of my characters have some kind of skirt so I don't have to stare at their perky rear end. You are most likely in the tiny minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithros Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Since most pants in this game are skin-tight, and I do not enjoy looking at butt cracks or crotch bulges, I am a fan of anything that covers it up. ALL of my characters have some kind of skirt so I don't have to stare at their perky rear end. I'm with you. I am often looking for gear that has some sort of butt cover. Even if for the trooper/BH types it's just some armoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) This is a design choice in the game that is constantly annoying me, yet as you put out more cartel armor there seems little chance that Bioware is ever going to stop: Why is every good chest piece ruined with a buttflap, a backpack, a loincloth, or all three? People participating in the Cosplay Contest at New York Comic Con should present these buttflaps, backpacks, loincloiths or combinations of them to the developers ! ! Since most pants in this game are skin-tight, and I do not enjoy looking at butt cracks or crotch bulges, I am a fan of anything that covers it up. ALL of my characters have some kind of skirt so I don't have to stare at their perky rear end. Skin-tight clothing of in-game characters was coined in the DDO community as a "body-condome". This term is not my invention, mind you ! Edited September 11, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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