Darth Vader and Darth Tyranus vs Darth Nox and Emperor's Wrath

[Tankdoog]

Sorry but again much like science you have to see it to believe it.

 

Nox slapped away force lightening with the aid of the ghosts. Simply slapped it away as thought it were nothing more than a pesky insect. Nox took on a powerful force storm like lightening attack as though it were nothing. Nox made Thanaton her ***** and she would do the same to Dooku. Sorry but its true. I gave Dooku some credit in my first post however he still loses. No if's, and's or but's.

 

I gave the edge to Dooku against the Wrath however it would be a close fight and one for the ages.

 

As for Malgus, how many wraths and noxs solod him now? My wrath has... so... yeah.

 

Due to game mechanics and being a higher level than Malgus, you've managed to solo him. Canonically, it required four people to bring down Malgus.

 

Moreover, slapping away lightning from Thanaton is laughable, considering Thanaton has literally no feats to demonstrate.

 

How can you just assume Thanaton's force storm is "powerful" when he has done nothing to demonstrate it's power?

 

It's absurd and funny at the same time, how every single argument I've seen in favor of Nox and Wrath consists of unsupported assumptions and baseless speculation.

[ReiKai]

Due to game mechanics and being a higher level than Malgus, you've managed to solo him. Canonically, it required four people to bring down Malgus.

 

Moreover, slapping away lightning from Thanaton is laughable, considering Thanaton has literally no feats to demonstrate.

 

How can you just assume Thanaton's force storm is "powerful" when he has done nothing to demonstrate it's power?

 

It's absurd and funny at the same time, how every single argument I've seen in favor of Nox and Wrath consists of unsupported assumptions and baseless speculation.

 

And yet, your opinion of Dooku/Vader being better is because...they appear later in history? All I'm seeing is a lot of personal bias and ranting based on that alone. Thanaton has feats. 30yrs prior he was charged by Vitiate to hunt down his wayward apprentice and proto "Emperor's Child", Exal Kressh and succeeded. Nvm that she was fairly powerful, Thanaton also blackmailed the entire Dark Council and got away with it.

 

Saying they don't have feats is just plainly stupid. And from what I remember, the best Dooku accomplished with Lightning was...knocking around an immature brat Anakin and ticking off Savage Oppress who never learned how to Block. Dooku's Force feats are some of the lowest I've ever seen.

 

I've already given plenty of reasons why Nox and Wrath take this. People who don't bother to read what others have said really shouldn't be spouting such nonsense as this.

[Tankdoog]

And yet, your opinion of Dooku/Vader being better is because...they appear later in history? All I'm seeing is a lot of personal bias and ranting based on that alone. Thanaton has feats. 30yrs prior he was charged by Vitiate to hunt down his wayward apprentice and proto "Emperor's Child", Exal Kressh and succeeded. Nvm that she was fairly powerful, Thanaton also blackmailed the entire Dark Council and got away with it.

 

Saying they don't have feats is just plainly stupid. And from what I remember, the best Dooku accomplished with Lightning was...knocking around an immature brat Anakin and ticking off Savage Oppress who never learned how to Block. Dooku's Force feats are some of the lowest I've ever seen.

 

I've already given plenty of reasons why Nox and Wrath take this. People who don't bother to read what others have said really shouldn't be spouting such nonsense as this.

 

Lol, I knew someone was going to bring this up. Not only does Exal Kressh also have no feats to support the notion she's "fairly powerful," she was manhandling Thanaton in every single one of their encounters.

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4399309-exel+kressh+force+lightning+on+thanaton+1.jpg

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4399317-exel+kressh+force+lightning+on+thanaton+2.jpg

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4399320-exel+kressh+overpowers+thanton+with+lightning.jpg

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4399369-exel+kressh+ragdolls+thanaton.jpg

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4399372-exel+kressh+force+chokes+thanaton.jpg

 

The only reason Thanaton "succeeded," was because his slave distracted her long enough for him to take her by surprise.

 

And yet, your opinion of Dooku/Vader being better is because...they appear later in history?

 

I implore you to quote where I stated this.

 

Saying they don't have feats is just plainly stupid. And from what I remember, the best Dooku accomplished with Lightning was...knocking around an immature brat Anakin and ticking off Savage Oppress who never learned how to Block. Dooku's Force feats are some of the lowest I've ever seen.

 

Perhaps because your knowledge of Star Wars is only limited to the cartoons and movies. Seriously, expand your horizon.

 

 

Here Dooku easily rips a massive metal supporting beam from it's hinges to attempt to kill Obi-Wan. This feat alone trumps anything either the Wrath or Nox have done telekinetically, and that's not even his best feat.

 

And let's not forget how he easily lifted those stone pillars; each of them weighing many tons.

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4334825-dooku+lifts+structures+1.gif

 

And Dooku also managed to shock a mature Anakin into submission as well.

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4334881-dooku+zapps+anakin+2.gif

 

Not only this, but Dooku can also deflect lightning with ease.

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4334834-dooku+tutaminis.gif

 

In conclusion, there is literally nothing Nox can perform that Dooku can't replicate. The difference here being, Dooku is light years ahead of Nox in terms of saber mastery.

 

And way to try to lowball Dooku. If you want to play like that, then the best Nox has done with his lightning is overpower a weak Sith Lord who has never won a single fight against another Sith on his own. Therefore, Nox's lightning feats are some of the lowest I've ever seen.

 

See how easy it is to lowball?

[Dayshadow]

You do know how hilariously hypocritical you sound, don't you? You say that the writers "portray" them as Moses and Jesus, yet you then go on to say as long as they only have mediocre feats, they will be perceived as mediocre.

 

I've been asking what they have done to put them on the level of Dooku, yet you still have yet to provide any feats.

 

You haven't provided anything to put Dooku on any level at all. I'm not saying the guy is weak sauce, but I've seen nothing on the level of the things SWTOR character do.

 

As far as what they have done... have you not played SWTOR? We actually see them doing stuff. As opposed to a reference saying soandso was the best just because.

 

A fluff statement? It's not the opinion of anyone, it's literally in the narration. Y'know, that omniscient guy in every EU issue (which I'm assuming you don't read, because you make absurd statements like Nox and the Wrath being more powerful than Yoda)

 

Why is it an absurd statement?

 

On what basis do you think Yoda is so great compared to them. By virtue of being video game characters they sort of automatically are going to be better.

 

First of all, Yoda was stated to be the most powerful light sider in all history. This comes directly from the Star Wars Encyclopedia.

 

What history? A history that does not include SWTOR. The Consular shows far greater force affinity as new Jedi than Yoda does in any movie. Things Yoda struggles to force lift would be tossed aside by SWTOR character with a flick of the wrist.

 

Oh, and tough luck for Nox, considering Nox's lightning is going to be utterly, and I mean hilariously useless against Yoda, considering Yoda was absorbing the force lightning of the most powerful Sith to ever exist; Darth Sidious.

 

It's like if I say Darth Sidious ain't **** compared to the Sith Emperor. You're like a guy arguing that Dumbledore is more powerful than Doctor Strange. Two separate realities. A Harry Potter book saying Dumbledore was the most powerful means nothing when said book does not take into account for Doctor Strange. Not saying Strange is more powerful or not. This is just for example.

 

Which brings me to another point. Malgus causes the Wrath to kneel before him with a mere gesture. A small burst of lightning and the Warrior buckles.

 

Malgus is also capable of making the sorcerer look like a joke.

 

After which that warrior/sorc defeats Malgus. Last joke Malgus tells. So since Sidious knocked Yoda around in his Office Yoda is weaksauce? Yoda is now a joke you say? If YOU say so. I guess if Malgus did that to Yoda would have died outright?

 

So your point is Malgus is more powerful than Yoda too? OK, if YOU say so. Because force lighting having a physical effect on someone makes them super weak and punks, right?

 

And if you're going to try to say that Malgus is more powerful than either Yoda, Dooku, and Vader, then it's obvious you not only know nothing of Star Wars, but haven't picked up a single EU novel in your life. (With perhaps the exception of the "Revan" book, considering how much you **** the Old Republic.)

 

I've read the Thrawn Trilogy, Rogue Squadron series, Crystal Star and a few others. But none of that really matters as none of them take into account SWTOR.

 

Ironfist from the Esseles flashpoint has supposedly "crushed" every bounty he's come across, but is easily defeated by someone more powerful than them. Like you said, it only puts them at the top of a list of scrubs.

 

You're such a hypocrite it's not even funny.

 

U MAD?

 

Yeah the Sith Emperor, Malgus, Angral, Revan, etc. are all scrubs. OK. Sounds like you are just mad now. Take some time to relax and get over it.

 

Now, I'm going to carefully ask you again. If you ignore every other point I've made (which you have a bad habit of doing), at LEAST address this one.

 

You've made no points. I've addressed everything, but you seem to be hard of hearing.. er, reading... ummm...

 

What have Wrath or Nox done, what FEATS do they have, to place them above Dooku or Vader?

 

What kind of "feats" are you looking for? Since the events of the games apparently don't matter.

 

You'd first have to explain what make Dooku anything worthwhile beside a line saying "he was so good and you, the reader, will just have to take my word for it" which doesn't show us anything. Vader has nothing to do with this. I've already placed Vader and Sidious are on par with Nox and the Wrath.

[Tankdoog]

You haven't provided anything to put Dooku on any level at all. I'm not saying the guy is weak sauce, but I've seen nothing on the level of the things SWTOR character do.

 

Except for the fact that I have. I just posted a plethora of actual SOLID feats (not unsupported fallacies, which you seem intent on spewing) that place Dooku well above Nox.

 

As far as what they have done... have you not played SWTOR? We actually see them doing stuff. As opposed to a reference saying soandso was the best just because.

 

It's like your goal here is to be as ambiguous as humanly possible. What "stuff" do we see them doing? You still keep making fallacious claims without any evidence to support it. I've been providing actual visual evidence, you haven't.

 

Why is it an absurd statement?

 

On what basis do you think Yoda is so great compared to them. By virtue of being video game characters they sort of automatically are going to be better.

 

They are automatically better because they are video game characters?! This is your logic?

 

Y'know, this kind of also proves that you, up to this point, have essentially been closing your eyes, covering your ears, and yelling "Lalala, I can't hear you," in regards to everything I've stated. I already talked about the instance in which Yoda reached out and gripped an entire starship with the force.

 

This feat trumps anything Wrath or Nox have done.

 

What history? A history that does not include SWTOR.

 

Actually, yes, it does. SW:TOR and the EU were both canon before Disney retconned them, meaning that SWTOR was, at one point, apart of the official history.

 

The Consular shows far greater force affinity as new Jedi than Yoda does in any movie.

 

Based on???

 

Things Yoda struggles to force lift would be tossed aside by SWTOR character with a flick of the wrist.

 

Will the unsupported claims ever cease?

 

It's like if I say Darth Sidious ain't **** compared to the Sith Emperor. You're like a guy arguing that Dumbledore is more powerful than Doctor Strange. Two separate realities. A Harry Potter book saying Dumbledore was the most powerful means nothing when said book does not take into account for Doctor Strange. Not saying Strange is more powerful or not. This is just for example.

 

These are not two separate realities; they take place in the same universe. For goodness sake, Vader himself was given Malgus' personal journal as a source of inspiration from Sidious. Darth Krayt discovered a holocron from Nihilus. Marka Ragnos appeared as an apparition to Darth Plagueis (Darth Sidious' master), and Sidious has several journals and recordings regarding ancient Sith lords.

 

Why do you insist that these universes are not the same?

 

After which that warrior/sorc defeats Malgus. Last joke Malgus tells. So since Sidious knocked Yoda around in his Office Yoda is weaksauce? Yoda is now a joke you say? If YOU say so. I guess if Malgus did that to Yoda would have died outright?

 

Resorting to straw man arguments now, are you? Can't say I'm surprised.

 

First of all, that's a horrible comparison. Sidious is, and this isn't even up for debate, the most powerful Sith in all of Star Wars history. Period. The fact that Yoda was even able to stalemate him for a time places him miles, and I mean miles ahead of any player character in SWTOR.

 

Malgus is not one of the most powerful Sith in history, not even close, in fact. Being shocked into submission by Malgus is a discredit because he is nothing special.

 

So your point is Malgus is more powerful than Yoda too? OK, if YOU say so. Because force lighting having a physical effect on someone makes them super weak and punks, right?

 

Keep picking at straws, mister straw man. Either you're intentionally misconstruing my point, or you simply don't possess the mental acuity to actual comprehend what you're reading, which would be a bit sad. I'm going to go with the former, for the benefit of the doubt.

 

Yeah the Sith Emperor, Malgus, Angral, Revan, etc. are all scrubs. OK. Sounds like you are just mad now. Take some time to relax and get over it.

 

And yet Mace Windu, Darth Maul, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, Yoda, Dooku, and Obi-Wan ARE scrubs? I'm merely using your logic against you to show you how stupid it sounds.

 

U MAD?

 

You're losing credibility.

 

You've made no points. I've addressed everything, but you seem to be hard of hearing.. er, reading... ummm...

 

Made no points? Are you seriously illiterate or something? I was jeering you on earlier, but now I'm a bit worried about your ability to comprehend what you read.

 

How exactly have I made no points? Not only did I continuously address that Nox and Wrath have no actual feats, but I've provided a surfeit of scans and feats for Dooku that easily places him above them both.

 

What kind of "feats" are you looking for? Since the events of the games apparently don't matter.

 

You keep going on and on about the events in the game, yet you still haven't named any actual instances in which they've done anything impressive.

 

You'd first have to explain what make Dooku anything worthwhile beside a line saying "he was so good and you, the reader, will just have to take my word for it" which doesn't show us anything. Vader has nothing to do with this. I've already placed Vader and Sidious are on par with Nox and the Wrath.

 

Sidious on par with Nox? Now I'm really curious. When is the last time Nox has conjured a wormhole that could swallow an entire fleet? When is the last time Nox did something on the scale of mind wiping a planet full of billions of people?

 

And no, I haven't simply been providing statements for Dooku. If you took the time to read (which seems to be a challenge for you for some reason), you'd realize I've already posted a cluster of actual scans for Dooku.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Tankdoog

[AizaTalzin]

Dude you lost this argument already. Time to just let it go. Nox and Wrath beat Dooku and Vader.

 

Why should we listen to cartoon drawings of people or read a book. Think of it in this manner: in society people have to see things to believe. Simply writing things down without any visual proof to support it is a flawed argument. So your comics, books, ect that have no video support should and actually would be considered nothing more than propaganda. Just because you said Vader or Dooku did such and such in a "comic book" or "book" does actually mean nothing. I could edit the wiki page of Nox and claim she brought solar systems into creation. See? Means nothing. Seeing as we are not counting the written b.s. that was the pathetic E.U. and focusing completely on what we visually see back to the actual argument.

 

You have done nothing but diminish anything anyone does in this game. Thanaton is manipulative, decisive, ruthless, etc. To say he has done "nothing" is a severe misunderstanding of the character as Marr himself says Thanaton was a better sith than people gave him credit for.

 

Lets compare force attacks here: Nox knocked away the force lightening like it was nothing. Dooku couldn't do that. The closest anyone could get to it was Yoda whom (I would claim was superior to Nox in some areas) absorbed it at one point and then shot it back at his opponent later. Even then it took a lot of energy to perform these abilities as based on his facial expression. Nox? Slapped that **** away with no effort.

 

Looking at the force lightening storm, Sidious couldn't handle his own basic **** and got deformed when it was deflected back onto him. Nox? Took a vast amount of lightening and walked out with a shrug... a shrug.

 

Sorry son, Nox > Dooku 100% of the time. Gotta stop grasping at straws and start a different combat thread with opponents worthy of Nox and Wrath (say windu/yoda vs nox/wrath)? I think you might fair better in that argument than this one.

 

:-)

[Tankdoog]

Dude you lost this argument already. Time to just let it go. Nox and Wrath beat Dooku and Vader.

 

Why should we listen to cartoon drawings of people or read a book. Think of it in this manner: in society people have to see things to believe. Simply writing things down without any visual proof to support it is a flawed argument. So your comics, books, ect that have no video support should and actually would be considered nothing more than propaganda. Just because you said Vader or Dooku did such and such in a "comic book" or "book" does actually mean nothing. I could edit the wiki page of Nox and claim she brought solar systems into creation. See? Means nothing. Seeing as we are not counting the written b.s. that was the pathetic E.U. and focusing completely on what we visually see back to the actual argument.

 

You have done nothing but diminish anything anyone does in this game. Thanaton is manipulative, decisive, ruthless, etc. To say he has done "nothing" is a severe misunderstanding of the character as Marr himself says Thanaton was a better sith than people gave him credit for.

 

Lets compare force attacks here: Nox knocked away the force lightening like it was nothing. Dooku couldn't do that. w facial expression. Nox? Slapped that **** away with no effort.

 

Looking at the force lightening storm, Sidious couldn't handle his own basic **** and got deformed when it was deflected back onto him. Nox? Took a vast amount of lightening and walked out with a shrug... a shrug.

 

Sorry son, Nox > Dooku 100% of the time. Gotta stop grasping at straws and start a different combat thread with opponents worthy of Nox and Wrath (say windu/yoda vs nox/wrath)? I think you might fair better in that argument than this one.

 

:-)

 

Were....were you dropped on your head as a child?

 

Think of it in this manner: in society people have to see things to believe. Simply writing things down without any visual proof to support it is a flawed argument. So your comics, books, ect that have no video support should and actually would be considered nothing more than propaganda. Just because you said Vader or Dooku did such and such in a "comic book" or "book" does actually mean nothing. I could edit the wiki page of Nox and claim she brought solar systems into creation. See? Means nothing. Seeing as we are not counting the written b.s. that was the pathetic E.U. and focusing completely on what we visually see back to the actual argument.

 

I'm not even sure I should be addressing this, given the amount of sheer stupidity it consists of, but I will do so anyway.

 

Firstly....a comic/book is not a wiki article. You cannot edit a comic or a book...I don't know how exactly you conceived of this idea that fiction needs video animation for it to be legitimate ...and I also don't think you know what propaganda is.

 

*Sigh*

 

Secondly...the EU has been around and canon long before SW:TOR was even a concept. Your logic is just...I can't really put it into words. That's like saying a Marvel animated movie is more legitimate than the actual comics because you can see the picture moving.

 

You have done nothing but diminish anything anyone does in this game. Thanaton is manipulative, decisive, ruthless, etc. To say he has done "nothing" is a severe misunderstanding of the character as Marr himself says Thanaton was a better sith than people gave him credit for.

 

Yes, he was a better Sith than most give him credit for. He was resourceful, tactful, and great at planning. This would not help in a fight though, especially a random encounter. Being a better Sith than people give him credit for does not mean he's more powerful than people think he is. And, not to sound like a broken record or anything, but you still haven't given a single legitimate reason as to why Thanaton should be considered anything special.

 

Lets compare force attacks here: Nox knocked away the force lightening like it was nothing.

 

Yes, and?

 

Dooku couldn't do that.[/quote

 

Interesting....except yes, he can. I've literally posted a scene of Dooku easily swatting lightning away. How did you miss that?

 

Lets compare force attacks here: Nox knocked away the force lightening like it was nothing. Dooku couldn't do that. w facial expression. Nox? Slapped that **** away with no effort.

 

Looking at the force lightening storm, Sidious couldn't handle his own basic **** and got deformed when it was deflected back onto him. Nox? Took a vast amount of lightening and walked out with a shrug... a shrug.

 

What are you even talking about anymore? Sidious' lightning was never deflected back at him. If you're referring to the incident between him and Mace Windu, Mace never "deflected" his lightning. He blocked it with his saber. Sidious' appearance was altered because of the excess amount of Dark Side energy he was releasing, thus revealing his true form.

 

He always looked like that, even before the Mace incident; he merely concealed it.

 

Moreover, taking a "vast" amount of lightning from a weak Sith lord like Thanaton does not constitute as impressive, considering Nox still couldn't take a single burst of lightning from Malgus.

 

Sorry son, Nox > Dooku 100% of the time. Gotta stop grasping at straws and start a different combat thread with opponents worthy of Nox and Wrath (say windu/yoda vs nox/wrath)? I think you might fair better in that argument than this one.

 

I'm not even going to properly address this, because at this point, your post has devolved into full fallacious drivel.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Tankdoog

[flumfsushi]

Dude you lost this argument already. Time to just let it go. Nox and Wrath beat Dooku and Vader.

 

Why should we listen to cartoon drawings of people or read a book. Think of it in this manner: in society people have to see things to believe. Simply writing things down without any visual proof to support it is a flawed argument. So your comics, books, ect that have no video support should and actually would be considered nothing more than propaganda. Just because you said Vader or Dooku did such and such in a "comic book" or "book" does actually mean nothing. I could edit the wiki page of Nox and claim she brought solar systems into creation. See? Means nothing. Seeing as we are not counting the written b.s. that was the pathetic E.U. and focusing completely on what we visually see back to the actual argument.

 

You have done nothing but diminish anything anyone does in this game. Thanaton is manipulative, decisive, ruthless, etc. To say he has done "nothing" is a severe misunderstanding of the character as Marr himself says Thanaton was a better sith than people gave him credit for.

 

Lets compare force attacks here: Nox knocked away the force lightening like it was nothing. Dooku couldn't do that. The closest anyone could get to it was Yoda whom (I would claim was superior to Nox in some areas) absorbed it at one point and then shot it back at his opponent later. Even then it took a lot of energy to perform these abilities as based on his facial expression. Nox? Slapped that **** away with no effort.

 

Looking at the force lightening storm, Sidious couldn't handle his own basic **** and got deformed when it was deflected back onto him. Nox? Took a vast amount of lightening and walked out with a shrug... a shrug.

 

Sorry son, Nox > Dooku 100% of the time. Gotta stop grasping at straws and start a different combat thread with opponents worthy of Nox and Wrath (say windu/yoda vs nox/wrath)? I think you might fair better in that argument than this one.

 

:-)

 

At this point you sound like a blind fanboy holding your hands over your ears shouting "Lalalala I can't hear you, I'll just ignore everything you say then it wont be true!" No I'm not going to argue anything because it would be pointless, I already know you won't listen and I don't need the headache.

 

I bid you farewell.

 

Edit: I'm going to say that I don't think Vader would even need Dooku to win, He'd take Nox and Wrath 1v2. I don't believe it would be easy, it would be close. However I do belive Vader would pull it off in the end, Dooku just makes it overkill.

Edited July 11, 2015 by flumfsushi

[PadsterPwns]

 

 

I'm not even going to properly address this, because at this point, your post has devolved into full fallacious drivel.

 

Would you mind telling me if I should bother with this or not? It seems people are just ignoring Vader and Dooku's feats, I mean I've got a rebuttal in the work but I don't want to do all the work of writing it down for nothing. Also, lol did someone genuinely just tell you that they won't take feats from books or comics for evidence?

[Xilizhra]

Two things seem to be noteworthy.

 

The first thing is that Vader and Tyranus are quite a bit more experienced, being 40something and 80something respectively, while the Emperor's Wrath and Darth Imperius/Occlus/Nox are early-to-mid 20s. Given a while longer of game time, you could see them wax quite a bit more.

 

The second thing is that the real answer is "it's arbitrary, the winner would be whomever the story demands." Which, in the end, would most likely be the PC.

[Beniboybling]

We can infer the Wrath is his basic equal in saber combat.

I think some elaboration is required, Vader is proficient in all seven forms on lightsaber combat, and an absolute master of Djem So, as Anakin receiving praise from Count Dooku, one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in mythos. He's built on his form since then, the Wrath pales in comparison.

TK can be blocked and the Wrath is exceptionally powerful with some kind of link to Vitiate that hasn't been fully explored yet.

Because it doesn't exist, this is pure fanon.

While Vader most certainly has better TK feats in and of themselves, the Wrath has more varied and usable offensive Force Powers he can bring to the table.

How? What abilities does the Wrath possess that Vader hasn't mastered to a superior level?

Overall, Vader will end up stuck in a saber fight with the Wrath and I'd say it's 50/50 if things were just about that.

On the contrary. Vader is a superior duelist to the Wrath and all round more powerful and more versatile Force User easily on level if not superior to Revan, he's also the superior tactician, and altogether a better juggernaut. The Wrath will hold his own but his defeat is inevitable.

Unfortunately, as noted, the Wrath has other force abilities he can pull out. Wrath has that 4th option of using more esoteric type Force abilities that Vader can't readily defend himself against because they're not something he's had to deal with before.

Such as? You've failed to name a single one.

but Nox's force abilities utterly dwarf Dooku's and Vader's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhnY8pU3rFc&t=0m21s

 

And one you need to prove. Nox's abilities don't even place him above Dooku, let alone Vader.

If we follow the track that says that the Heir has rivaled her predecessors, Tulak Hord and Aloysius Kallig, then her abilities are rather significant. If we include what Khem-Val has said, it would place her above even Vader's TK feats. As Khem says on Taris, that he once witnessed Tulak Hord pulling down a ship of the same size as the Brental Star. While it's certainly no Star Destroyer, it's still quite significant.

Khem-Val says a lot of things, most of them indicating that he's blindly devoted by to his former master, whom he likes to lord over Kallig, in this respect we can't trust him not to exaggerate Hord's abilities. Though for the record pulling down a ship of that size is not superior to Vader, given that his apprentice - Starkiller - TKed a Star Destroyer, and Vader has proven more than his match many times over.

Overall, Dooku and Vader just can't match up to these two. I would even argue that Nox could solo the both of them.

And that would be silly.

As far as Dooku and the dueling skills, the main issue arises when each author has their own set of opinons and doesn't consider the rest of the canon, or anything prior to the era they're writing in. Dooku could be one of the best of his era. But that's generally meaningless since the same words have been said about a lot of figures in SW, from as fart back as the "Tales of the Jedi" series all the way through the Legacy Series.

Dooku's accomplishments support his accolades, with him readily schooling proclaimed exceptional duelists like Obi-Wan Kenobi, Sora Bulq, Ventress, Vos and others. He's also been declared peer to Windu and Yoda, Windu the second best Jedi in the Order, and Yoda the believed greatest duelists in galactic history.

Thoughts of superiority based on that line of lone is ultimately meaningless. Heck, Revan was flat out stated to be the greatest duelist of his era, which includes survivors of the Sith War against Exar Kun. Yet many people still hate Revan and claim he's a sub-par duelist, despite him being completely undefeated in that area.

No, no he hasn't. More fanon.

The only time in the EU that Vader ever fought anyone from a previous era was when they discovered Celeste Morne in stasis who'd been given repeating nightmares of the worst day of her life repeatedly for the last 3900yrs. Woke up screaming and fought Vader. He wins (obviously, otherwise bye-bye movie canon), but not easily.

Not easily? Celeste Morne was from the back foot from the beginning, and in both instances Morne attempts to challenge him Vader dispatches her within a few panels, it is obvious that Morne was nowhere near his match.

Heck, Celeste I'd say ends up better than Vader after sticking around for another 100yrs into the Legacy era and smoking Darth Krayt. But that's another story.

You mean Karness Muur.

Malgus, Revan, the Dread Masters, and so much more. Could you honestly say that Dooku and Vader could compare against these forces, where it took Wrath and the Heir and more to face them?

Are you seriously suggested Dooku and Vader aren't a match for Malgus and Revan?

[ShenLongKazama]

Are you seriously suggested Dooku and Vader aren't a match for Malgus and Revan?

 

Well yeah because they are no match. Dooku got beaten by an emo Jedi, and that emo Jedi got beaten by his emo son. If we consider all sources, comics/games etc. Dooku has no mentionable skills other than his lightsaber mastery. Vader would be heavily vulnerable to lightning and electricity. Vader couldn't stand a chance against a single Jedi Master, like the one time in one of the Dark Times comics, where he lost against three Jedi Masters, and only managed to kill the others through treachery and luck. He got saved by the 501st legion. Dooku's force abilities are heavily overrated and he's completely outmatched against anyone from the Old Republic era, except people like Harkun or Treek. However, if Vader wouldn't have been crippled, he could hold his own against Nox and the Wrath, he managed to defeat Cin Drallig before his accident.

[Beniboybling]

I lol'ed.

[ShenLongKazama]

I lol'ed.

 

I don't think your statements are that funny though.

[Beniboybling]

Facts tend not to be.

[ShenLongKazama]

Facts tend not to be.

 

You mean like when George Lucas saved money for his ink fund to buy that extra letter in "RevengE of the Sith" ?

[cs_zoltan]

• Sidious is the strongest sith ever.
  
• Yoda could Tutaminis Sidious' lightning.
  
• Yoda had trouble Tutaminis-ing Dooku's lightning.
  

Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master.

Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.

“Powerful you have become, Dooku,” Yoda admitted, and the Count grinned—but Yoda promptly took that grin away by adding, “The dark side I sense in you.”

Dooku > Nox, Wrath confirmed.

[PadsterPwns]

This is my first in depth post so I am sorry if it isn't fantastic

 

As no one has told me which AC we are using, I'm guessing this is the composite versions of the Wrath and Nox? If so that makes this slightly closer but still the Wrath and Nox are being heavily overrated whereas Dooku and Vader are being criminally underrated. This is Dooku, who has bested Mace and kept up with Anakin until he was enraged, and Vader who has been ambushed by 8 jedi, 4 of which he killed, one of them being a Morgukai, and the Dark Lord has been seen by jedi to move faster than anyone they've seen bar Yoda. Now I'm going to compare all I know (though it may be limited).

 

 

Dueling

 

 

 

This goes to Vader and Dooku. Both have accolades to being master swordsmen who have mastered multiple forms, with Dooku being undoubtedly the best Makashi user we've seen in the entire Star Wars universe and Vader being known as possibly the best Djem-so user.

 

Dooku has beaten and stalemated Mace Windu, stalemated TCW Anakin and Obi Wan on multiple occasion, it is said his mastery of Makashi exceeds Yoda's, he has stalemated Ventress and two other night sisters while drugged, casually disarmed two Magnaguards and while very impressive these are only some of Dooku's feats. His accolades include being one of the greatest duelists in the PT Jedi order, he is noted to be a natural fencer with leverage, position and advantage being like breathing to him, it is implied that he is proficient in multiple forms as he taught his numerous apprentices and acolytes a large variety of styles and has clearly solved the two weaknesses of Makashi as he can fight multiple enemies effectively and can deflect blaster bolts.

 

Vader has defeated a Darth Maul clone that is just as good as the original and possibly amped, defeated a jedi master whilst still new to his suit, easily defeated two skilled jedi knights who were using different forms to try and unbalance him, stomped PROXY who was in his most dangerous mode, slayed 128 stormtroopers (at once) before his prime, defeated Sha Koon while weakened and much more. In addition to this Palpatine has stated Vader to be the best Jedi hunter in history, even better than General Grievous, his fighting style is stated to be unpredictable and the Jedi Olee Starstone felt as if she was fighting a droid that was programmed to counter all of her best moves. Vader is also a more tactile fighter after what happened to him at Mustafar meaning he will be hard to trick.

 

While the Wrath is legendary for his dueling skills and Darth Nox is certainly impressive, Dooku and Vader were from the "Golden era" of the jedi order and both were still considered legendary duelists by their contemporaries, duelists like Yoda, Mace, Sidious and Kenobi, with both Dooku and Vader being seen as two of the best duelists in galactic history. So from what I can tell from the evidence, Dooku and Vader get the dueling edge.

 

 

 

Force ability

 

 

 

This is another edge Vader and Dooku recieve. While Nox is a force to be reckoned with and the Wrath isn't a slouch, Vader and Dooku have feats which dwarf Nox's and the Wrath's feats.

 

Dooku is recognised as one of the most powerful force users in galactic history and has feats to back it up which include: matching a restraining Yoda in a force battle, TK'ing Obi Wan, keeping a Krayt Dragon as a pet via beast control, simultaneously using TK and lightning on Anakin, crushing the base of a huge metal pillar with a gesture while tired, TK'ing chairs and a large table, collapsing a metal balcony, chocking and lifting Quinlan Vos whilst taking his lightsaber from him, killing is former padawan with force choke, intercepting a lightsaber strike from Ventress with an object he TK'd over (without looking or gesturing it) then force pushing her across the room, his lightning is powerful enough for it to hard to redirect by Yoda. These are again only some of his feats and he knows some esoteric force powers.

 

Vader is stated to only be 20% weaker than Palpatine, a statement that can be backed up with his many incredible feats with the force. These feats include: Vader lifting up and throwing a Y-wing with ease, force crushing a flying TIE fighter, easily collapsing a large tower, easily tearing an AT-AT apart, force chocking Rahm Kota and sending him towards storm troopers via TK, briefly chocking Starkiller, easily collapses four huge cloning platforms, casually chocking many people in a courtroom whilst force crushing a Twi'lek's heart, Vader pulling a freighter from the sky, Vader disintegrating two Lyleks, Vader releasing a force wave that shatters staligmites and cracks the exoskeletons of Lyleks, he pins Aurra Sing to the floor using the force, Vader force chocking Ferrus Olin, Vader blowing apart a durasteel door, Vader collapsing a ceiling with ease, using TK to crush the heart of a jedi. He is also shown to be highly skilled with tutaminus, with him using it to deflect lightsaber blows and absorb or redirect blaster bolts. As well as these feats he has other feats with more esoteric powers which I will post if necessary.

 

From all of this we can see that Vader and Dooku exceed both the Wrath and Nox in force ability; to put it plainly anything both teams can do, Vader and Dooku do it better. However, there is the issue with Nox's ghosts and how they will affect the battle as Nox can revive themselves if dealt a fatal blow. My answer to this is a question; how do the ghosts affect lightsaber wounds? If they do heal wounds caused by a lightsaber then this poses a problem, but if they don't then it simply means Vader or Dooku need to use their lightsabers to put down Nox permanently which (in my opinion) would probably be easier than engaging in a force battle with Nox. The only other issue that may be brought up is Vader's resistance to lightning, although I don't see why as it took the most powerful Sith lord's lightning to kill Vader and anything less has proven to do nothing more than put Vader on his knee, and even then that was lightning from Starkiller amped by two electrical pylons.

 

 

 

Force Augmentation

 

 

 

Both Dooku and Vader have some impressive feats of using the force to augment their strength, speed and durability, to a degree where I think it could have a large effect on the battle.

 

Dooku's speed is distinguished, with him being noted as impossibly fast, he was able to kick Anakin before pieces of a Super Battle Droid hit the floor which he then quickly turns into a spinning kick that hits Obi Wan, he is able to move faster than Obi Wan who has been able to deflect blaster fire from entire armies, he is agile enough to dodge blows from precise and fast opponents such as Ventress and General Grievous, he is able to generate eight afterimages with his blade in his fight with Master Yoda and he has been noted as the Jedi Temple's most agile swordsmaster. In addition to this his strength is such that he has knocked out Obi Wan (a known glutton for punishment) in a single kick, in a separate incident he has kicked Obi Wan so hard and so fast that the latter's neck made a crack that sounded like it had broken, he has brought Ventress to the floor with a single kick and later kicks her across the room, he has kicked Anakin in The Clone Wars so that it caused him to stagger and in Revenge of the Sith he kicked Anakin so hard that the he folded, while drugged he was able to make the Nightsister's recoil a few meters by simply parrying/blocking their strikes and later kicks a Nightsister back several meters and off of a ledge. It should also be noted that Dooku is said to be physically fitter than most beings half his age.

 

While not as agile as Anakin Skywalker, Darth Vader is still exceptionally fast. He is able to generate six afterimages with his lightsaber, create a barrier around his body using his lightsaber whilst simultaneously deflecting blaster fire from multiple angles and directions, move so fast that he seemed to teleport, kill Roan Lands before Ferrus Olin can react suggesting he could have speed blitzed Olin himself, Ferrus also states he moved faster than anyone he has seen bar Yoda, he has deflected freighter fire capable of disintegrating everything of an imperial guard except his helmet, he has matched and at times outclassed Ezra Bridger and Kanan Jarrus in speed the former being capable of moving faster than thought and ,even more impressively, he has drawn his lightsaber faster than thought, waved it invisibly fast and deflected at least a dozen blaster bolts while caught off guard. His strength is remarkable as he has ripped a door off of a ship, crushed a stormtroopers head, left cracks on a table with a punch, lifted a man by the throat and killed him through lack of air or breaking his neck and he has a dozen stormtroopers crash into him but Vader was not moved. Perhaps Vader's most impressive trait is his unbelievable endurance that has allowed him to beat a clone of Darth Maul by impaling himself and was then going to kill three dark side adepts as if nothing had happened, tank various explosions, survive being electrocuted, withstand AT-AT fire, survive debris thrown at him by three jedi masters, tanked Palpatine's lightning long enough to throw him down a reactor core and he has demonstrated immense stamina by being able to fight Starkiller for hours without being hit once by him and seemingly without exhausting himself.

 

All of this evidence seems to point out that no matter who wins the fight it will be drawn out as all the combatants have high skill in physical augmentation. However, it is also clear that Vader is the combatant with the most stamina, endurance and the highest strength and speed, with Dooku being a close second to Vader's speed. It is because of this I give the edge to Dooku and Vader in force augmentation and in my opinion this is a large factor in the outcome.

 

 

 

Verdict

 

 

 

In conclusion it is my belief that the Count and Vader will triumph due to their combined skill, force mastery and force augmentation. Vader will likely be comfortable fighting either opponent as he is a better duelist than both the Wrath and Nox and can likely endure any hits caused by the Wrath or Nox due to his astounding endurance in combination with his superior lightsaber skill and his wide range and magnitude of force powers. Dooku on the other hand would likely do better against the Wrath as while he could probably match Nox in a force battle and would almost certainly beat him in saber combat, he would still do better against the Wrath as he is more likely to immediately go for saber combat, where Dooku's speciality in 1 vs 1 dueling would shine, especially considering his performances against greater swordsmen such as Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan Kenobi. More than anything it is Vader's endurance and Dooku's speed and dueling finesse that will bring the Wrath and Darth Nox to defeat, as while one is dealing with Vader, the other is likely to fall to Dooku and then get dog pilled, although this could work vice versa. In saying this however it is not an easy fight for either side and it is likely team two could win some rounds which is why I would give Vader and Dooku a solid 7-8/10.

 

 

Sources

 

Thank you to whoever created these:

 

 

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/zapan87/blog/darth-vader-respect-thread-part-1/98512/

 

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/zapan87/blog/darth-vader-respect-thread-part-2/102636/

 

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/count-dooku-darth-tyranus-respect-thread/95276/

 

[Tankdoog]

Well yeah because they are no match. Dooku got beaten by an emo Jedi, and that emo Jedi got beaten by his emo son. If we consider all sources, comics/games etc. Dooku has no mentionable skills other than his lightsaber mastery. Vader would be heavily vulnerable to lightning and electricity. Vader couldn't stand a chance against a single Jedi Master, like the one time in one of the Dark Times comics, where he lost against three Jedi Masters, and only managed to kill the others through treachery and luck. He got saved by the 501st legion. Dooku's force abilities are heavily overrated and he's completely outmatched against anyone from the Old Republic era, except people like Harkun or Treek. However, if Vader wouldn't have been crippled, he could hold his own against Nox and the Wrath, he managed to defeat Cin Drallig before his accident.

 

 

Congratulations, you completely rid yourself of all credibility in a single post. How does that make you feel?

[Tharenisis]

Vader's signature move is force choke, the guy forced choked a Moff through a hologram from light years away if I remember correctly.

 

I don't think Nox OR wrath would stand a chance. Dooku would easily keep the Wrath busy dueling sabre's, while Vader would just force choke Nox to death, then well, Vader + Dooku vs. Wrath?

[ShenLongKazama]

Congratulations, you completely rid yourself of all credibility in a single post. How does that make you feel?

 

Ha, Irony.

[Dayshadow]

He's mad, folks. Let him cool off in the naughty corner for a bit.

 

He either hasn't played SWTOR or he's just being willfully ignorant. What has the Consular done that shows more affinity in the force than Yoda? Was that even a real question? That's when I stopped and realized the tremendous waste of time any further dialog with him would be. On Taris he blasted through durasteel blast doors in a single force blast. He lifts huge structural beams and tosses them aside like nothing to save those researchers. Where Yoda has to concentrate and strain to stop that thing Dooku knocked over to occupy him while he escaped Geonosis. .

[Tankdoog]

Ha, Irony.

 

I don't see what's ironic about it. If you're trying to insinuate I've lost credibility, then that's hilariously erroneous seeing as how I am one of the only people in this entire thread that has been providing solid feats, and not baseless statements like "Wrath has beat countless super strong people, therefore he wins."

 

When you said

by an emo Jedi, and that emo Jedi got beaten by his emo son.

, you literally made it impossible for you to be taken seriously anymore.

 

Not only that, but you even brought up video games as an accurate source and/or measurement to determine the power of Dooku and Vader, which is more laughable.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Tankdoog

[PadsterPwns]

I don't see what's ironic about it. If you're trying to insinuate I've lost credibility, then that's hilariously erroneous seeing as how I am one of the only people in this entire thread that has been providing solid feats, and not baseless statements like "Wrath has beat countless super strong people, therefore he wins."

 

When you said , you literally made it impossible for you to be taken seriously anymore.

 

Not only that, but you even brought up video games as an accurate source and/or measurement to determine the power of Dooku and Vader, which is more laughable.

 

No offense but I'd stop trying to convince them considering that every time they've seen a post that canonically proves Dooku and Vader are superior they either ignore it or say those sources are invalid. I agree with you and in my earlier post where I said it might be close, that was me being generous as I really think team 1 win every time, they just have better showings and accolades compared to team 2 not to mention more experience. Also the fact that someone is arguing the Consular is more powerful than Yoda is laughable.

[ChazDoit]

Very hard to determine because Wrath and Kallig's Heir have been completely gamified since they're part of an MMO, they have an enormous array of abilities that we have not even seen in the original trilogy or the prequels.

 

In the movies I've seen Force users display:

Lightsaber skills

Telekinetic abiltiies (Force Push/Pull)

Force Speed

Force Jump

Force Lightning

Also some non combat skills like communicating, becoming a force ghost and sensing presences.

 

In videos games, SWTOR to be more specific, we've seen the player characters use all the skills mentioned above, plus:

Invisibility

Invulnerability

Force Fields

Healing Powers

Force Screams

Shockwaves

Charging lightsabers with lightning

All the weird powers that the Inquisitor gets from madness/hatred tree, and I'm sure I forget some more.

 

Answer this:

How do you go about determining who would win when the portrayal of Force Powers in SWTOR is so different from how it is portrayed in the Movies, you might as well say these characters belong to different universes?

 

 

And to the people saying "Even if you let the Inquisitor and the Warrior use their weird, flashy, video game powers, they still lose" Sorry I just don't see it, the SWTOR characters are unlike anything we've ever seen in the movies, you'd have to go through a list of their abilities and tell me how a movie character would counter those.

Edited July 13, 2015 by ChazDoit