Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Wafles]

This is a beautiful post. Bump

[Arkimor]

same here

 

Yup, another +1 here.

[OBLCDiomedes]

+1

 

Bumping

[Smoda]

Can someone post a video of this delay from inside SWTOR, instead of just showing us everything from the WoW perspective?

 

I played WoW in its beta, bought it a year after release, played all the way through vanilla, stopped at BC, picked it up against for WotLK for a long while, and came back briefly to do all of Cata, so I'm not a stranger to its responsiveness and tight controls. Yet I don't see any lack of that in SWTOR. When I use an ability in SWTOR, it gets used. The damage is tied to the animation, and I don't find an issue with that--it's not like in WoW where you could cast a Fireball and deal damage several seconds before the fireball actually impacts a target. I don't think that's bad or wrong, it's just different.

 

The only "delay" complaint I've seen and can replicate myself is the cast-move on speeders. I haven't been able to witness any of this other stuff in the slightest.

 

I believe a major issue is the fact that cast timers and visual cues on screen are not representative of the actual damage and activity going on in the background. Skills and what not exist and are active beyond their indicated time periods.

[queg]

Totally agree with the OP, I've been thinking the same thing since I first tried the game.

 

Also, this:

 

The majority of people disagreeing don't seem to understand the core issue, maybe due to lack of experience with other MMOs or a general satisfaction with how the combat works in SW:TOR.

 

...and more power to them. I wish I could look past such a glaring flaw and enjoy the game for what it is. The fact that I can't use every GCD to my liking kills the combat experience for me.

[Feskitt]

I believe you misunderstood the point of my video. In that video I'm not casting 2 spells at the same time, I'm in fact, immediately casting an instant cast spell on top of a cast spell once the cast time is finished. The best BH example I can see is when you use your unload spell. It has a channel time. Once it's done try to immediately cast something like your flame spell or your explosive dart. Half the time even though the spell is ready to cast, the game won't let you cast it. There is still an internal cooldown happening (from the animation) that prevents it from happening.

I know the point of the video, I saw what you did. And this confirms what I figured lots of folks in this thread want; they want to be able to "load" moves onto one another; some apparently want to flat-out rapid-fire button-mash stuff. They want to click a button, and have instant gratification of damage. Then they want to click-click-click a whole bunch more.

 

TOR has consciously not taken that approach.

 

Re: BH, I've never had a problem either intentionally interrupting, or waiting for the end of Unload, before firing off anything else. It's just never happened for me that I remember. I'm lvl 48, soloed literally the whole game (but one boss on Voss), did a little PvP. I'm just not seeing this as inherently inferior to the system so many of you want.

 

 

Like someone else mentioned earlier, maybe it's because the BH class doesn't experience this problem that much. I know I haven't.

 

 

 

[fallenvirtues]

+1, if you doubt there is a problem just go and try to cast 2 force storms in a row on a sorcerer.. It feels 100% impossible to make the transition from one channeled spell to another smoothly in this game atm.

 

I go from ravage to force choke (or vice versa) all the time and I never have a problem...I would really check your hardware...seriously...not trying to be a funny guy here

[Gorgewall]

As a trooper it is impossible to go by the visual elements on screen. At level 30 almost every channeled ability I have doesn't do damage until well into it's cast and then continues to do damage after the channel is finished. I cannot come up with a single possible reason why they thought this was a good idea. My main gripe here can be seen perfectly in the mortar volley skill.

 

You don't go by the UI elements--you go by the visuals of the animation. You spend the first 1.6 seconds of Mortar Volley getting your gun into position and revving up the skill (at least, I do with my assault cannon) before you fire your first shot, which doesn't actually impact (at max range) until the channel time is completely over. That's a full three seconds before any damage is done, but it perfectly syncs up with the animations. Each burst of damage is perfectly synced to the explosion of a mortar round, and the last mortar round flies out of your gun even after the channeling is complete--even while you're in the midst of doing other things, like firing off Pulse Cannon or a High Impact Shot.

 

As with the earlier WoW video with the troll mage killing pigs, I can use Charged Bolts and then High Impact Bolt on a second target to impact them at the same time. Ability damage and related status effects isn't done until the relevant animation looks like it should actually have an effect--Project is very noticeable in this regard. That's not bad, it's just not what you're used to.

[carnac_fett]

They want to click a button, and have instant gratification of damage.

 

That's how it should be for every video game ever.

 

Games need to feel fluid and responsive.

 

Back in the 80s and early 90s, there were some platformers with awful controls. You'd press the jump button but your character wouldn't jump until some time later.

 

The worst of the worst had seemingly random delays you could never fully put your finger on. At least with the other sort, you could rely on the input lagging a certain amount every time.

 

TOR reminds me of that second, worse type.

[Feskitt]

I've guessed at this, and it makes sense. They have a ton of abilities which isn't really necessary for a good combat feel. The number of abilities however plays into more of a roll playing experience, which is more centric toward a good story. For example, shoulder slam on the BH when a target is incapacitated. That thing almost never lights up, but it "looks cool".

 

LOL, now I HAVE noticed that with Shoulder Slam. Something is goofy there, it rarely "lights up" even when enemies are incapacitated.

 

 

[Hiramas]

Each burst of damage is perfectly synced to the explosion of a mortar round, and the last mortar round flies out of your gun even after the channeling is complete--even while you're in the midst of doing other things, like firing off Pulse Cannon or a High Impact Shot.

 

You are making exactly the right point. The channeling is done, but the animation is still going on, which in not all but seemingly a lot of cases blocks the next action.

[Halacs]

I have to be honest...This is related to your hardware and there is no doubt in my mind..Why I say this? Simple

 

I have 2 machines I run this game on...

 

1. My nice powerful rig at home

2. My not so powerful laptop that has a cheesy dedicated GPU I use when slow at work

 

My desktop at home: I hit an ability and it instantly executes it when no problems what so ever

 

My laptop on the other hand: there is always a delay because the laptop in reality shouldnt really be used for this game and gets crappy fps...

 

EVERYTHING you are making this post about happens on my laptop and I understand how frustrating it is...I really do...Especially when it effects your DPS and etc...But if this was a client issue, why does my desktop at home have no delay????

 

EDIT: The only time I do see a delay is if I'm clicking before my CD is up..Otherwise my character pretty much executes what I push as I push it

 

 

I7 2960xm

32Gb 1600Mhz DDR3

Dual 580m GTX

Dual Crucial M4's Raid 0, Sata 3

Killer N nic

80-100 ping average.

 

Where is my bottleneck?

 

I also get the same problem on my dual Xeon desktop with 48 Gb ram, dual 6970's and 4x OCZ SSD max Iops.....

 

Don't have issues in other MMO's with the same rigs.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Halacs

[fallenvirtues]

You don't go by the UI elements--you go by the visuals of the animation. You spend the first 1.6 seconds of Mortar Volley getting your gun into position and revving up the skill (at least, I do with my assault cannon) before you fire your first shot, which doesn't actually impact (at max range) until the channel time is completely over. That's a full three seconds before any damage is done, but it perfectly syncs up with the animations. Each burst of damage is perfectly synced to the explosion of a mortar round, and the last mortar round flies out of your gun even after the channeling is complete--even while you're in the midst of doing other things, like firing off Pulse Cannon or a High Impact Shot.

 

As with the earlier WoW video with the troll mage killing pigs, I can use Charged Bolts and then High Impact Bolt on a second target to impact them at the same time. Ability damage and related status effects isn't done until the relevant animation looks like it should actually have an effect--Project is very noticeable in this regard. That's not bad, it's just not what you're used to.

 

Ok maybe I was one of those that assumed I knew what you were talkin about..So let me get this straight...You guys dont like that fact that certain abilities and chain attack dont instantly start doing damage..That they carry out a animation while doing it and the dmg happens as the saber or blast actually hits the target? You dont like the fact that if you are using a mortar attack that your toon has to set it up and so forth...you want it to magically burst out of his hands as you run around? It sounds like you dont like how its a little more realistic

[melodey]

I go from ravage to force choke (or vice versa) all the time and I never have a problem...I would really check your hardware...seriously...not trying to be a funny guy here

 

So what is the hardware requirements you are recommending? I'm just curious. Cuz I bought a new comp for the game.

[Feskitt]

I can tell you for sure that if I designed that wrist rocket thing... it'd only need one hand to activate... that's just not good design from a combat standpoint.

 

But eh. That's an easy fix, and is more a function of the poor animation than anything really.

Well sure, IRL it would be more efficient to use only 1 hand I agree.

 

Even in SW EU, BH's helmet's are equipped almost like Iron Man's, in that they can register facial movement and verbal commands, so that they theoretically should be able to fire the wrist-launcher w/ only one hand. (and in a few comics, I'm certain it shows Boba doing that)

 

However in the films and TCW, we always see Boba/Jango/Cad using the free hand to 'activate' the device.

 

 

[fallenvirtues]

I7 2960xm

32Gb 1600Mhz DDR3

Dual 580m GTX

Dual Crucial M4's Raid 0, Sata 3

Killer N nic

 

Where is my bottleneck?

 

I also get the same problem on my dual Xeon desktop with 48 Gb ram, dual 6970's and 4x OCZ SSD max Iops.....

 

How come I dont have this problem at home then???

[Smoda]

You are making exactly the right point. The channeling is done, but the animation is still going on, which in not all but seemingly a lot of cases blocks the next action.

 

But I think his point was to counter my point, and my point is agreeing with your point?

[fallenvirtues]

So what is the hardware requirements you are recommending? I'm just curious. Cuz I bought a new comp for the game.

 

I really dont have any suggestions...My comp isnt the greatest in world...but it plays the game perfectly...I do experience delay when using my laptop, but none on my desktop...Why is that???

[Hiramas]

How come I dont have this problem at home then???

 

Which class do you play again?

 

Btw: @OP, maybe you could update the first post, maybe with the hints on the BH not being affected that much?

That would save us a lot of explaining

[fallenvirtues]

Which class do you play again?

 

Btw: @OP, maybe you could update the first post, maybe with the hints on the BH not being affected that much?

That would save us a lot of explaining

 

SW and SI...You are right...I cant speak on all classes...Just the ones I play

[Halacs]

I know the point of the video, I saw what you did. And this confirms what I figured lots of folks in this thread want; they want to be able to "load" moves onto one another; some apparently want to flat-out rapid-fire button-mash stuff. They want to click a button, and have instant gratification of damage. Then they want to click-click-click a whole bunch more.

 

TOR has consciously not taken that approach.

 

Re: BH, I've never had a problem either intentionally interrupting, or waiting for the end of Unload, before firing off anything else. It's just never happened for me that I remember. I'm lvl 48, soloed literally the whole game (but one boss on Voss), did a little PvP. I'm just not seeing this as inherently inferior to the system so many of you want.

 

 

Like someone else mentioned earlier, maybe it's because the BH class doesn't experience this problem that much. I know I haven't.

 

 

 

 

So you believe at casting an instant off GCD after a timed cast goes off is button mashing?

[Arkimor]

Which class do you play again?

 

Btw: @OP, maybe you could update the first post, maybe with the hints on the BH not being affected that much?

That would save us a lot of explaining

 

Isn't the BH mostly insta-cast?

[Hiramas]

But I think his point was to counter my point, and my point is agreeing with your point?

 

He was trying to contradict us and at the same time incorporated our biggest argument, that there is something wrong.

 

@Arkimor: I honestly don't know. It just seems most people who don't experience any problems play BH.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Hiramas

[Gorgewall]

Ok maybe I was one of those that assumed I knew what you were talkin about..So let me get this straight...You guys dont like that fact that certain abilities and chain attack dont instantly start doing damage..That they carry out a animation while doing it and the dmg happens as the saber or blast actually hits the target? You dont like the fact that if you are using a mortar attack that your toon has to set it up and so forth...you want it to magically burst out of his hands as you run around? It sounds like you dont like how its a little more realistic

I'm not part of this group clamoring for everything to deal damage independent of animations, .1 seconds after you press the button as in WoW. I'm fine with the way things are now. I have not been inconvenienced by damage and effects being perfectly synced to their animations--in fact, I prefer it to the WoW system of "everything farts out at the same time". I found it a little disconcerting, actually, that everyone just threw their hands up in WoW and every spell could pretty much look the same, or that I'd be taking phantom damage from fireball impacts before I could even see a fireball on my screen (as I rode away on a mount).

[Smoda]

He was trying to contradict us and at the same time incorporated our biggest argument, that there is something wrong.

 

That is what I thought, thank you haha