Stop the arms race.

[fujeotwo]

Get rid of stunlocking and bring back peeling. Nerf offensive CC, bring back defensive CC.

Make ranged classes cast more to nerf their mobility. Remove auto-tracking on casted abilities (also balances melee vs range DPS in PvE).

Melee range still needs to be a safe zone for melee classes. Allow melee to break LoS by getting behind the caster. Nerf interrupts.

Nerf melee gap closers to balance them with range casting.

Nerf the ridiculous survivability of certain classes.

[Iserath]

here i can sum that all up for you.. DEVS!! USE YOUR BRAINS WHILE "FIXING" PVP!!! - <3 a merc

[noexqss]

Get rid of stunlocking and bring back peeling. Nerf offensive CC, bring back defensive CC.

Make ranged classes cast more to nerf their mobility. Remove auto-tracking on casted abilities (also balances melee vs range DPS in PvE).

Melee range still needs to be a safe zone for melee classes. Allow melee to break LoS by getting behind the caster. Nerf interrupts.

Nerf melee gap closers to balance them with range casting.

Nerf the ridiculous survivability of certain classes.

 

I always wondered this. Also, does ranged attacks do less or decrease depending on how close/far the target is? Kinda sucks beings a melee DPS while ranged attacks being rained on from above while not being able to do anything while leap is on cool down.

[Darth__Reaver]

I would love for us mercs to have an instant CC tbh...

[foxmob]

3.0 made mercs and sorcs WAY too mobile. it also did other stupid things like allowing AP PTs to be extremely mobile with incredible range. and then there's the slew of anti-CC abilities that all classes run around with. it's pretty much FUBAR at this point.

 

but I thoroughly agree with the op: ranged should be casters by nature. what they can do on instant needs to be very limited. on the other hand, a class with all instants and incredible burst (AP PT) can't be allowed to pretty much run through a training dummy roto between 10-15m, have 2 stuns and 1 interrupt to lock down the range; it's just obviously too much. same with 12s of stun/mezz immunity.

 

for the dot specs, I can see granting more mobility, but it should be more like IO. that's a full 3-4 gcd before they even begin to "burst." (SS, IR, TD, optionally FM + sticky). and they don't have spammable CC (enet once, stun once, possible mezz once, horrible root prolly not spec'd).

 

unfortunately, things tend to go the "other" way. mercs whine about lack of a dcd (which is a legit weakness compared to most other ACs), and eventually there will be some sort of force barrier facsimile. maras whine about not being able to stay in melee range or for having to "pay" for their 4s of virtual invulnerability. what does BW do? give a mara spec immunity after leap and give the 99% straight DR for free. All of these are ridiculously wrong. maras and mercs were fine the way the were. instead, let's look at what you're doing with barrier and ED and deflection/phase walk and concealment roll invulnerability. with PTs being speed demons with all kinds of burst at ridiculous range for an instant "cast" skillset. they really are doing it backas$wards, imo. but it's a lot like the bolster/expertise debate: they're committed to it and won't change their "overarching approach come hell or high water."

[Floplag]

I have to say i do feel they have gone a little overboard on the whole mobility/CC/stun wagon, but it isnt something you can fix one piece of without addressing all.

 

Are some ranged dps a little too mobile.. yes, but if we werent we would be dead meat. Do some melee have issues with time on target, yes.. but if they had more they would be OP. The real issue is far too many CC/stun/mezz/etc... and far too many immunities to same to try to balance the blotter. That has to get addressed first before you can address the others.

 

No CC of any kind should be spammable or even close to it, IE 90 second or higher cooldown reset on death. No class should be able to stun "lock" another class. Resolve should grant immunity to all of the above, period.

 

They need to get back to making the use of a CC relevant, and the use of the breaker impactful instead of the Stun Wars we are fighting right now.

[Fellow-Canadian]

I would love for us mercs to have an instant CC tbh...

 

Your stun is instant and you can use your tech override to make your mez instant.

[Fellow-Canadian]

Honestly if the devs feel this game just has too much cc then they should balance the classes that have too much cc. It seems cc immunity is the one size fits all PVP balance solution. I guess when all you have is a hammer then everything starts to look like a nail.

[Adovir]

Wow, I was actually expecting something about tracer missile

[smuldro]

what does BW do? give a mara spec immunity after leap

 

i wish they had done this try learning the actual changes before complaining

[Saikochoro]

I've been saying stuff like this pretty much since 3.0 came out.

 

Nerf ranged mobility

Buff ranged damage

Nerf cc immunity

Nerf melee range (mainly just AP)

 

That's the general sentiment anyway.

 

A couple other things I'd like to see:

 

Give all ranged classes an instant 30m mez baseline.

Get rid of ranged mezzes for melee.

Get rid of knockback root on sins...I honestly don't see why a melee has a aoe knockback anyway.

Make melee hard stuns 4m

Make ranged hard stuns 10-15m

Make roots/snares dedicated abilities instead of baking them into rotation with damage abilities (i.e more stuff like force slow and crippling slice and less stuff like flame burst slow and chain lightning root/slow).

Edited April 30, 2015 by Saikochoro

[Pherdnut]

With the design goal of not being snared constantly balanced with having effective CC and huttball games where HB-specialized sorcs/sages can't make it halfway across the arena without being stopped unless you kill them...

 

Here's an idea:

 

* Everybody's purge grants complete CC immunity, even knockbacks, for a few seconds. It's easy to spot someone who has purged but it can be activated without interrupting any other ability in mid-animation.

 

* All current utilies that proc CC immunities affect the following only (slows, roots, hard stuns).

 

* Abilities that are uninterruptible block all stuns (hard and soft), interrupts, and knockback) but never extend duration of the immunity afterwards. Knockback and soft stuns almost always work.

 

* There are no other types of immunity. Each type here is accompanied by some kind of affect or icon or something that makes it easy to spot what kind they currently have without having to fish through a pile of like 20 buffs/debuffs in a fraction of a second to avoid wasting a CC.

 

* Hard and soft stuns negate all other immunities if they land. Basically soft stuns give you a way through the current massive wave of CC armor that requires knowing everything all other ACs and specs can do.

 

* Cooldowns for stuns and purges are tweaked until it feels like there's a healthy balance of CC being reliable/useful and not being stunned for half the damned game even if you didn't choose every last utility available to maintain mobility/inflict bonus CC as IMO, you would be wise to do in the current game typically.

 

 

 

So, you're almost never immune to knockback or a soft stun. If you want to be, burn a purge and do your force leap with a guaranteed followup move and then maybe that uninterruptable one. Or if you want to stop that bomb from getting set you could burn a purge to stop that guy from setting it. In both cases, you could be leaving yourself potentially vulnerable to soft-stun/hard stun combo. But at least you have an option when you really, really need it if you didn't burn it already. IMO this is better than being immune half to seemingly all the time for force knows what proc of what spec/AC. You still have that ambiguity with roots, hard stuns, and slowdown but it takes more than one sprinting Sage/Sorc to win an entire game of huttball against a team that's not equipped to kill her fast enough.

 

Likewise, a gunslinger can either choose to use their soft stun to stop a stealther before they escape, follow up with a hard stun and finish the guy off or save both CCs to potentially escape/defend against those two guys who just rounded the corner. It's always a tradeoff to use your one most-effective stun or your one most potent anti-CC ability. And when you have nothing else, at least you have knockback to buy a little time.

 

Also, with the purge having a duration on it you at least get to make a move when outnumbered by enemies with CC. Coming fresh out of a gate only to get bombarded with CC and nuked is kind of a bummer and forces one to pick certain utilties over others merely to survive the first 5 seconds of a match which isn't really a real choice IMO. You might as well drop those options onto the path where the rest of the character building choices got buried.

 

Generally speaking, as immunity breakers, soft stuns should probably be limited by range/AoE or not based on how critical they are to a character's defense. Not sure everybody should even get one. Nobody should get more than one.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Pherdnut

[Kakisback]

Nerf interrupts? They just did that in 3.0. Bad decision.

[alexsamma]

 

Give Classes CC immunity during rotational abilities...

 

Try rereading your post, think about what you actually said, then come back and tell us were you went wrong...

Edited April 30, 2015 by alexsamma

[foxmob]

i wish they had done this try learning the actual changes before complaining

 

you're right. everything I said is irrelevant. I lost count of sabers in fury stance.

Edited May 1, 2015 by foxmob

[foxmob]

I've been saying stuff like this pretty much since 3.0 came out.

 

Nerf ranged mobility

Buff ranged damage

Nerf cc immunity

Nerf melee range (mainly just AP)

 

That's the general sentiment anyway.

 

A couple other things I'd like to see:

 

Give all ranged classes an instant 30m mez baseline.

Get rid of ranged mezzes for melee.

Get rid of knockback root on sins...I honestly don't see why a melee has a aoe knockback anyway.

Make melee hard stuns 4m

Make ranged hard stuns 10-15m

Make roots/snares dedicated abilities instead of baking them into rotation with damage abilities (i.e more stuff like force slow and crippling slice and less stuff like flame burst slow and chain lightning root/slow).

 

I'd buy-in for all of this.

[DresG]

You guys should post more often on the PTS forum, I started complaining about everything you say since they announced Unremitting/Unstoppable for all Guards/Juggs. It seemed to work since they made the change into something that we actually proposed instead (still an unnecessary change tho)

 

Sadly most members of the PVP community are scrubs asking for all kinds of silly buffs, like Ravage/MS on the move.

Edited May 1, 2015 by DresG

[ThorgrimLutgen]

here i can sum that all up for you.. DEVS!! USE YOUR BRAINS WHILE "FIXING" PVP!!! - <3 a merc

 

And to think, the clowns tolds us losing skill trees and adding disciplines would make balance changes so much easier for them to do, yet another pile of crap from the devs cupboard of crap.

[DresG]

And to think, the clowns tolds us losing skill trees and adding disciplines would make balance changes so much easier for them to do, yet another pile of crap from the devs cupboard of crap.

 

It solved the hybrid problem, but the changes they made just created different problems, like those mentioned in previous posts. Another problem is the amount of damage a tank spec can do:

 

http://i.imgur.com/sM6gHBy.jpg

 

Done in non min/max dps gear, it's plain silly.

[Svarthrafn]

I agree with the OP. I've seen this arms race in other games. Games I don't play anymore.

 

Bring this crap under control please.

[KingKalbo]

With the design goal of not being snared constantly balanced with having effective CC and huttball games where HB-specialized sorcs/sages can't make it halfway across the arena without being stopped unless you kill them...

 

Here's an idea:

 

* Everybody's purge grants complete CC immunity, even knockbacks, for a few seconds. It's easy to spot someone who has purged but it can be activated without interrupting any other ability in mid-animation.

 

* All current utilies that proc CC immunities affect the following only (slows, roots, hard stuns).

 

* Abilities that are uninterruptible block all stuns (hard and soft), interrupts, and knockback) but never extend duration of the immunity afterwards. Knockback and soft stuns almost always work.

 

* There are no other types of immunity. Each type here is accompanied by some kind of affect or icon or something that makes it easy to spot what kind they currently have without having to fish through a pile of like 20 buffs/debuffs in a fraction of a second to avoid wasting a CC.

 

* Hard and soft stuns negate all other immunities if they land. Basically soft stuns give you a way through the current massive wave of CC armor that requires knowing everything all other ACs and specs can do.

 

* Cooldowns for stuns and purges are tweaked until it feels like there's a healthy balance of CC being reliable/useful and not being stunned for half the damned game even if you didn't choose every last utility available to maintain mobility/inflict bonus CC as IMO, you would be wise to do in the current game typically.

 

 

 

So, you're almost never immune to knockback or a soft stun. If you want to be, burn a purge and do your force leap with a guaranteed followup move and then maybe that uninterruptable one. Or if you want to stop that bomb from getting set you could burn a purge to stop that guy from setting it. In both cases, you could be leaving yourself potentially vulnerable to soft-stun/hard stun combo. But at least you have an option when you really, really need it if you didn't burn it already. IMO this is better than being immune half to seemingly all the time for force knows what proc of what spec/AC. You still have that ambiguity with roots, hard stuns, and slowdown but it takes more than one sprinting Sage/Sorc to win an entire game of huttball against a team that's not equipped to kill her fast enough.

 

Likewise, a gunslinger can either choose to use their soft stun to stop a stealther before they escape, follow up with a hard stun and finish the guy off or save both CCs to potentially escape/defend against those two guys who just rounded the corner. It's always a tradeoff to use your one most-effective stun or your one most potent anti-CC ability. And when you have nothing else, at least you have knockback to buy a little time.

 

Also, with the purge having a duration on it you at least get to make a move when outnumbered by enemies with CC. Coming fresh out of a gate only to get bombarded with CC and nuked is kind of a bummer and forces one to pick certain utilties over others merely to survive the first 5 seconds of a match which isn't really a real choice IMO. You might as well drop those options onto the path where the rest of the character building choices got buried.

 

Generally speaking, as immunity breakers, soft stuns should probably be limited by range/AoE or not based on how critical they are to a character's defense. Not sure everybody should even get one. Nobody should get more than one.

 

I agree with all of this. I also think it would not be a bad idea for Swotor to copy GW2's dodge system. which gives you 2 quick escapes before going on a cooldown. Similar to the Scoundrel/Op roll system but all toons have access to it.

[foxmob]

And to think, the clowns tolds us losing skill trees and adding disciplines would make balance changes so much easier for them to do, yet another pile of crap from the devs cupboard of crap.

 

to be fair, I do think disciplines was a good way of addressing hybrid builds. they seriously underestimated the "hybrid power" of shared utilities. and on top of that, quite a few of the disciplines are horribly balanced (in both directions), but the latter would be an issue for traditional spec trees too.

[Fellow-Canadian]

I've been saying stuff like this pretty much since 3.0 came out.

 

Nerf ranged mobility

Buff ranged damage

Nerf cc immunity

Nerf melee range (mainly just AP)

 

That's the general sentiment anyway.

 

A couple other things I'd like to see:

 

Give all ranged classes an instant 30m mez baseline.

Get rid of ranged mezzes for melee.

Get rid of knockback root on sins...I honestly don't see why a melee has a aoe knockback anyway.

Make melee hard stuns 4m

Make ranged hard stuns 10-15m

Make roots/snares dedicated abilities instead of baking them into rotation with damage abilities (i.e more stuff like force slow and crippling slice and less stuff like flame burst slow and chain lightning root/slow).

 

Pretty much this post right here.

 

I'd add reviewing the utilities for some classes. Sorcs in particular have access to so many amazing utilities that really push them over the top in PVP.

[DariusCalera]

I've been saying stuff like this pretty much since 3.0 came out.

 

Nerf ranged mobility

Buff ranged damage

Nerf cc immunity

Nerf melee range (mainly just AP)

 

That's the general sentiment anyway.

 

A couple other things I'd like to see:

 

Give all ranged classes an instant 30m mez baseline.

Get rid of ranged mezzes for melee.

Get rid of knockback root on sins...I honestly don't see why a melee has a aoe knockback anyway.

Make melee hard stuns 4m

Make ranged hard stuns 10-15m

Make roots/snares dedicated abilities instead of baking them into rotation with damage abilities (i.e more stuff like force slow and crippling slice and less stuff like flame burst slow and chain lightning root/slow).

 

To be honest, you would have to nerf the mobility of ALL the melee and not just the PT/VGs. One of the reasons that mercs/mandos and sorcs/sages were given the mobility that they were was to off set the mobility and up time on targets that the melee had. This was true before and especially true after 3.0.

 

If the mercs/mandos and sorcs/sages because true turret classes then they would either need leap immunity like snipers/slingers or the leaps would need to be removed, or at the very least, their cool downs significantly lengthened with the instant cool down of guardians/jugs being removed. If this didn't happen then all that two of the ranged classes would be is fodder for the melee because they would have no way to create actual distance, no way to dps, and no real way to protect themselves which got us all in this mobility mess to begin with.

 

I'm all for a return to true turret classes, but both sides (melee and ranged) would have to give up a lot. It would also necessitate a return the idea that ranged killed melee, stealth killed ranged, and that melee killed stealth.

[Capt_Beers]

Get rid of stunlocking and bring back peeling. Nerf offensive CC, bring back defensive CC.

Make ranged classes cast more to nerf their mobility. Remove auto-tracking on casted abilities (also balances melee vs range DPS in PvE).

Melee range still needs to be a safe zone for melee classes. Allow melee to break LoS by getting behind the caster. Nerf interrupts.

Nerf melee gap closers to balance them with range casting.

Nerf the ridiculous survivability of certain classes.

 

There's a very good reason ranged auto faces once a channel starts. It would be far too easy for opponents to break LoS simply by running through the player. This would drastically increase the skill floor for ranged players while making it extremely simple for melee to avoid damage. Melee has plenty of ways to stop casts between interrupts, stuns, KB's, pulls and mezzes.