Sixth Line Order

[nuclearmind]

As Obi Wan said in RotS "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

 

That's an absolute. So is Do or do not, there is no try.

[Ghisallo]

That's an absolute. So is Do or do not, there is no try.

 

That isn't what he is talking about (I fear for the lack of education in both philosophical argument and taking scenes or events in full context).

 

he is referring to how you view other people. The ideas of you are "either with us or against", that people are either "my friend or my enemy."

 

When you look at the context of that entire scene we are seeing the difference between a dictatorship and the ideal of democracy. Remember Obi-Wan also says "my allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy"

 

In the dictatorship (Empire) there are only absolutes. You are wither with the regime or against. You either obey or get eliminated. If you do not support the dictatorship you are a subversive that must be "dealt" with.

 

In a Democracy you have a right to dissent, to voice your own opinion, to agree to disagree and still cooperate.

 

That is what that scene is about.

 

I get that people will want to try and say "hey are the Jedi really any better than the Sith... look at all their rules." I get that in this jaded age the idea of bonafide good guys and bonafide bad guys is "corny". People want Wolverine, Batman, not old school Superman and Capt America.

 

Sorry but in the end, in Star Wars, for all their faults the Jedi are better. When it comes to the "big scheme" of things they do not believe in absolutes. They don't say "oh you disagree? Then you are against me. <force choke>"

Edited April 26, 2015 by Ghisallo

[SelinaH]

I think you are over thinking things. What makes the Jedi different is how they have far more opinions than the Sith. Would there ever be a Sith diplomat? No.

The Sphere of Expansion and Diplomacy says otherwise -- although, to be fair, at this period of history Darth Ravage seems much more focused on the former at the expense of the latter.

[Ghisallo]

The Sphere of Expansion and Diplomacy says otherwise -- although, to be fair, at this period of history Darth Ravage seems much more focused on the former at the expense of the latter.

 

I am talking about what we as a Sith Inquisitor can do in game...as was he .

Edited April 27, 2015 by Ghisallo

[BrianDavion]

Would there ever be a Sith diplomat?

.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Serevin

[Ghisallo]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Serevin

 

AGAIN....PLAYER CHARACTER..... jeez.

 

Also remember that was a guy who was a COMPLETELY atypical Sith because he sided with Malgus and was all for the non-racial superiority program he had running... vs the Sith we run into who rate you on the % of Sith blood running through your veins.

 

there are exceptions that prove the rule.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Frenesi]

AGAIN....PLAYER CHARACTER..... jeez.

 

Also remember that was a guy who was a COMPLETELY atypical Sith because he sided with Malgus and was all for the non-racial superiority program he had running... vs the Sith we run into who rate you on the % of Sith blood running through your veins.

 

there are exceptions that prove the rule.

 

"Diplomacy doesn't allow much bloodshed. How i missed this!" Yea, completely atypical

 

He is manipulative, cunning, ruthless SoB. Is he that different from other sith? Those qualities actually MAKE him good diplomat.

[Ghisallo]

"Diplomacy doesn't allow much bloodshed. How i missed this!" Yea, completely atypical

 

He is manipulative, cunning, ruthless SoB. Is he that different from other sith? Those qualities actually MAKE him good diplomat.

 

He was atypical because he was not a racial supremesist. Pure Blood Sighs aren't even technically "pure bloods" anymore but they still refer to themselves as such because of their believe in racial superiority. The fact he saw value in Voss as a people (and not simply a tool) and their culture and also sided with Malgus who would have completely done away with such racial superiority in his "new empire" makes him atypical indeed.

 

Simply because he enjoys violence does NOT do away with this far more important difference.

[Ghisallo]

Back on point...

 

Part two was again good. It shows the conflict, that Jedi will feel emotions BUT that they work to, and successfully to, overcome them (not killing the traitor.) It also looks like my deduction regarding the way they are seen more as just being ballsy in how they advertise their view...

 

...You’re referring to our nickname,” Surro said with a hint of annoyance.

Theron nodded. “‘The Sixth Line.’ A missing mantra from the Jedi Code. Pretty bold.”

“Why are you here?”

“I need Jedi with that mindset.” Theron pushed himself from the wall to stand in front of Surro. “That level of devotion to the mission.”

 

Clearly the Jedi Council has to know about these guys and gals...they had their addendum to the mantra BEFORE they were recruited by Theron and that addendum appears to have been no secret.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Kyrrant]

So, I played through Ziost tonight, and read the second part of the story post. For the record, light spoilers for Ziost below, although its nothing specific.

 

The story post is interesting, and I do get that they're trying to push the Sixth Liners into a more aggressive, ends-justify-the-means sort..

 

...the problem is that Ziost does NOTHING with them so far. Sixth Line Jedi get very, very little screentime as themselves, the only thing that really matters is that Theron considers himself in charge of them.

 

That's it.

 

You could replace them with non-Sixth Line Jedi and it would barely change anything in the story.

 

They go into this whole song and dance about the Sixth Line, "There is no Contemplation, there is Duty", which I still maintain is a stupid as hell catch-phrase (better alternatives: "There is no Doubt, there is Duty" or "There is no Hesitation, there is Duty"), but regardless, nowhere in Ziost do they ever go into anything at all related to the Sixth Line.

 

In the end, all they are is victims. And while I don't mind good guys being victims of bad guys, it doesn't address the core question of the Sixth Line: What, in the end, ARE they? How do they actually differ from 'regular' Jedi? Just being pragmatic, like plenty of other normal Jedi we've seen in the past?

 

The story is nice, but it fails a core concept of fiction: Stories should be self-contained. Knowing other material can enrich your experience, sure, but it shouldn't be required homework in order to understand what's going on.

 

In the end... the Sixth Line Jedi are still a barely defined concept, nothing more. If Ziost was supposed to be their coming out party, it failed miserably.

[Ghisallo]

First don't forget this is only Ziost part I. Part II is due May 4th.

 

Second, I think the purpose of the Sixth Line story is to say "why would Theron specifically pick THESE Jedi.". It is basically a plot "hook".

 

I also would argue against the "ends justify the means" kinda thing. If they were this you would not see them also saying "there is not emotion, there is peace" in the first part. They simply would be saying "he is expendable to ensure the success of the mission.". When offered the blaster (to prevent the use of a light saber from identifying the assailant as Jedi) the Jedi in part II would not have mind tricked the guy but taken the offered blaster and shot him...the mission would have still be preserved and a message would be sent to those who would betray the resistance. A win win for the ends justify the means kinda guy. There is a difference between being more committed to getting the job done than others and the ends justifying the means.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Ghisallo

[menofhorror]

So this has no attention from the jedi council?

 

And *** is up with the enormour amount of auto dialog? Gives me ME3 shivers....ew.

[Kyrrant]

First don't forget this is only Ziost part I. Part II is due May 4th.

 

 

The problem is that every Sixth Line Jedi we've encounted on Ziost thus far is a "Multi-State Character" now, meaning they have wildly different states, based on the player's actions. Alive or dead or being studied (well, dissected...).

 

That means that they almost certainly won't show up again in-game, not unless Bioware decides that the moral choices were stupid (...which I would agree with, they're hamfisted as always) and makes one of them canon. Part II of Ziost will almost certainly have absolutely nothing to do with the Sixth Line Jedi, and they might not even be mentioned now.

 

 

There is a difference between being more committed to getting the job done than others and the ends justifying the means.

 

That sentence is kinda the heart of why I kinda detest the concept of the Sixth Line, honestly. It implies that Regular Jedi wouldn't do the sort of things that the Sixth Line Jedi have done... even though we've seen the opposite in-game, NPC Jedi going to great lengths for the sake of the cause, going further than the Sixth Liners have, even.

 

They need to sell the difference and make it make sense, otherwise the Sixth Line will just be this minor footnote in TOR's story.

[DAWUSS]

It wouldn't surprise me if they're trying to set up the 6th Line as the new third party faction, now that the Dread Masters and Revanites are out of the picture.

 

Which, meh, I'm hoping we can have some non-Force related storylines. Bring on Black Sun, the Hutts, the Galactic War, or something.

[BrianDavion]

Back on point...

 

Part two was again good. It shows the conflict, that Jedi will feel emotions BUT that they work to, and successfully to, overcome them (not killing the traitor.) It also looks like my deduction regarding the way they are seen more as just being ballsy in how they advertise their view...

 

 

 

Clearly the Jedi Council has to know about these guys and gals...they had their addendum to the mantra BEFORE they were recruited by Theron and that addendum appears to have been no secret.

 

apparently the Jedi council has "never heard of these guys" as the JC when the 6th line is mentioned to him/her goes "I've never heard of them"

[Ghisallo]

So this has no attention from the jedi council?

 

And *** is up with the enormour amount of auto dialog? Gives me ME3 shivers....ew.

 

I will bet a million bucks Satele knows and that's all that matters really.... it's in SoR.... here is wh

 

 

literally just finished the Trooper story arc.

 

Theron Shan: Thanks to your old boss, SpecForce division is going through some changes. We can't afford to lose havoc Squad in that mire of beraucracy.

 

Satele Shan: A special task force is being assembled between the Jedi, the SiS and the military. Destroying the Sith Emperor is the group's sole purpose.

 

 

Add this to the stuff in the stories at least Satele knows... that last bit... how very "un-Jedi" in the minds of some people around here but VERY 6th Line.

 

By the way I really would suggest reading some of Old Repoublic Comics, especially the ones featuring bane and the last Sith War....it might make you see that the jedi of post Ruusan/ Yoda land ARE not the jedi we are dealing with between Revan and then. The order was VERY different.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

apparently the Jedi council has "never heard of these guys" as the JC when the 6th line is mentioned to him/her goes "I've never heard of them"

 

Or that is BS, or at least Satele Shan knows about t... because of the Trooper Story tied in with the 6th line stories. It's not like these guy are keeping a low profile.

 

At minimum I wager Satele has to know... not like she doesn't do whatever the heck she wants already...

 

Also... just saying... since the JC is a PC... you are out of the loop for the meta reason that we all share the same dialogue (done on JC, JK and Trooper same "i never heard of em."

 

So yeah... tvarious members of the Council probably know... our JC's just

lol Edited April 30, 2015 by Ghisallo

[BrianDavion]

Or that is BS, or at least Satele Shan knows about t... because of the Trooper Story tied in with the 6th line stories. It's not like these guy are keeping a low profile.

 

At minimum I wager Satele has to know... not like she doesn't do whatever the heck she wants already...

 

Also... just saying... since the JC is a PC... you are out of the loop for the meta reason that we all share the same dialogue (done on JC, JK and Trooper same "i never heard of em."

 

So yeah... tvarious members of the Council probably know... our JC's just

lol

 

except WOULD she? you tjhink the grand master would approve of Jedi just tacking new stuff onto the jedi code?

[Ghisallo]

except WOULD she? you tjhink the grand master would approve of Jedi just tacking new stuff onto the jedi code?

 

Absolutely.

 

First and foremost, if you read the two stories these cats and there addendum are far from secret.

Second...it makes for a good story.

Third... according to the EU (and everything bioware has done to date if you just want to go meta) this is NOT post Ruusan reformation/Yoda's Jedi. This is "we are in a war with the Sith Jedi" the two are VERY different in the comics and books.

Last... the dialogue I quoted is direct from thegame.

 

Don't forget... If this was Yoda's Jedi would Satele have essentially beotch slapped Saresh in the closing cinematic for SoR? Nope.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Rabenschwinge]

I would not overrate the meaning of this Order of the Sixth Line. They are just a special task force amongst many in the jedi order and they are certainly still jedi before they are anything else. The sixth line per se puts emphasize on their militaristic organisation, but it does not overrule the jedi code as such. It more like a motto of a military unit.

[Ghisallo]

I would not overrate the meaning of this Order of the Sixth Line. They are just a special task force amongst many in the jedi order and they are certainly still jedi before they are anything else. The sixth line per se puts emphasize on their militaristic organisation, but it does not overrule the jedi code as such. It more like a motto of a military unit.

 

And that is what I have been saying. The problem is people are looking at the mantra of the Jedi like they are the 10 commandments brought down the mountain vs what it is a matra with more than a little flexibility to it.

[Senrie]

By the way I really would suggest reading some of Old Repoublic Comics, especially the ones featuring bane and the last Sith War....it might make you see that the jedi of post Ruusan/ Yoda land ARE not the jedi we are dealing with between Revan and then. The order was VERY different.

 

I think you're conflating too heavily the jedi during the New Sith Wars with all pre-Ruusan jedi. The jedi in KOTOR and TOR are very much like they are under Yoda. Certainly more than they are with the Army of Light.

[Ghisallo]

I think you're conflating too heavily the jedi during the New Sith Wars with all pre-Ruusan jedi. The jedi in KOTOR and TOR are very much like they are under Yoda. Certainly more than they are with the Army of Light.

 

Nope... Look at the Jedi during the great Hyperspace war or even the Jedi during the war of Exar Kun. Many an author took the turn Jedi KNIGHT seriously. Then look at Satele herself, Grand Master of the order and her actions. In her words "we have fought this war for a long time" while she essentially beotch slaps Saresh on the Holo for daring to question her decision. Perhaps most importantly when Saresh says "and I will be even happier when you tell me you have your fleet back in position."

 

Then we have what I consider the biggie of the biggies...Satele being one of the driving forces behind a joint Jedi, SiS and Military task force with the "sole purpose of DESTROYING the Emperor." Not casting down, imprisoning or capturing but destroying.

 

This is the Grand Master of a Jedi Order who has control of her own battle fleet with a specific region of responsibility and who forms what amounts to an assassination strike force. This is a Jedi Order at war and this is what every Jedi Order has done when an Empire claiming the mantle of Sith shows up, whether it be the Great Hyper Space war, the war against the Krath and Exar Kun or the Brotherhood.

 

Heck the best example of "when the Sith show up things change" is during Revan's original lifetime. More than once I have read, on these forums even, people complaining about what they see as hypocrisy in the Order. How they were all condescending towards Revan and his followers about how war leads to the dark side yada yada yada....BUT when Revan and Malak are attacking them under the mantle of the Sith Empire the Jedi sound the battle cry and are all in. There is a 4 letter reason for this...Sith. As soon as the Sith show up the Jedi go on a war footing because they KNOW negotiations are not an option and their duty to the preservation of the Order and the Republic takes precedence time and time again in every instance when a Sith Empire invades.

 

You see this time and again in this game... The Council member (whose name escapes me) who goes for his saber when the JK shows up with the Wrath...every Republic base you go to that has Jedi Knights at the center of the defenses, Jedi with the Troops on Oricon, Satele being what amounts to the Pinnacle of all of this.

 

Now if Satele wasn't the Grand Master of the Order I would be saying "damn Sixth Line are heretical." But clearly they are not, they are at best "ballsy" because they have put what has become the reality after decades of war into words.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Senrie]

Nope... Look at the Jedi during the great Hyperspace war or even the Jedi during the war of Exar Kun. Many an author took the turn Jedi KNIGHT seriously. Then look at Satele herself, Grand Master of the order and her actions. In her words "we have fought this war for a long time" while she essentially beotch slaps Saresh on the Holo for daring to question her decision. Perhaps most importantly when Saresh says "and I will be even happier when you tell me you have your fleet back in position."

 

The difference is that it's still a Republic army. Satele and the other jedi are just leaders of it just as they were during the Clone Wars. It's not like during the New Sith Wars where they had personal armies and were given over to hubris, deeming themselves lords and rulers.

 

Then we have what I consider the biggie of the biggies...Satele being one of the driving forces behind a joint Jedi, SiS and Military task force with the "sole purpose of DESTROYING the Emperor." Not casting down, imprisoning or capturing but destroying.

 

I'm sure I don't need to point out to you that during the Jedi Knight storyline capturing or redeeming was exactly the plan. So that was the first choice.

 

But more to the point, how is this a distinguishing characteristic from Yoda's jedi?

. Yoda didn't go to face Sidious with the intention of redeeming him, nor did Obi-Wan want for Luke to redeem Vader.

 

This is the Grand Master of a Jedi Order who has control of her own battle fleet with a specific region of responsibility and who forms what amounts to an assassination strike force. This is a Jedi Order at war and this is what every Jedi Order has done when an Empire claiming the mantle of Sith shows up, whether it be the Great Hyper Space war, the war against the Krath and Exar Kun or the Brotherhood.

 

I just don't see how this is different from Yoda's jedi. They did exactly the same thing.

 

The difference is how they behave. The jedi during the New Sith Wars are hubristic like I said, they're gruffer, they're less philosophical, they're more like soldiers and daimyos. Starting with KOTOR and up till now in TOR the jedi behaved far more like they did under Yoda. Perhaps the Sixth Line is where the transition begins.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Senrie

[Ghisallo]

The Jedi ALWAYS serve the Republic. Even the Sixth Line is simply serving under the SIS rather than the military. The two circumstances are identical except for the Chain of Command.

 

As for the JK story we saw how well that worked out didn't we? Once your "first option fails" you mind set usually changes.

 

When you really look at it the only difference between the Sixth Line, and those of Satele's (or the guy whose name I forget) action/mind set is that the Sixth Line is bold enough to have the sixth line.

 

Again I noted from the source book what the mantra actually means. When we look at the meaning of the 5 lines and then add the 6th line there is really no conflict. All in the end that it does is show a boldness in articulating what Obi-Wan says in episode three "my loyalty is to the Republic, to democracy." The Sixth line simply has as part of their mantra this idea of duty to the Republic there for all to see.

 

The idea that somehow this is a slippery slope of some sort really seems to owe more to the pedantic adherence to a concept of the Jedi order that has never been consistent beyond the absolutely broadest of strokes vs simply looking at what the order has done through out its history...what it is doing now in terms of the game's world and actually looking at the lore deep enough to understand what the mantra really is and what each line is actually meant to symbolize.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Ghisallo