corcode Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Question: Are you actually such a player? Most of the players I know who aren't hard mode capable don't want to bang their heads on the wall for weeks. If they were willing or able to make that kind of investment in time and energy they would be hard mode capable. The game mechanics simply aren't that hard. Again, in my experience these are players who like playing with others, like seeing the bosses and the story, but absolutely don't want to be wiping a lot or take weeks with the same group to clear content. The thing to keep in mind is that players who don't do hard mode aren't simply less skilled versions of the hard mode players. Different people want different things from the game. Some want content to chew on that makes them push themselves and get better. Some people just want to log on and play with their friends. They aren't in it for the sense of accomplishment, they're in it to unwind, and there's nothing wrong with that approach. For many of those players, they were content not doing hard mode, but were happy to join, and even be carried through, story modes. Log on, faceroll stuff, joke around in ts/mumble, hey some gear. Good times. For many of them, especially those with very sporadic availability times, spending your one free night in two weeks wiping to underlurker isn't all that fun. Now, a lot of what you said does apply to hard mode capable players who have no business in nightmare. But for story mode I disagree. Well said. I agree with this completely. To the person who is against making story mode accessible to more people: nobody is trying to "take content away" from you. What we want is for story modes to be accessible to the most people possible and leave hard and nightmare modes for those of you who want a challenge and have the time to smash your head on the wall for weeks at a time. Some of us don't have the time to do that even though we have the skill and yes, some people have trouble learning mechanics and don't want to play a game as a second job or worry about min/maxing, but that doesn't mean we don't deserve to see ALL of the content and your suggestion of that is just straight up elitist. All we want is for there to be options for everyone to see all of the content and when there are bosses that are over-tuned in story mode like Underlurker that's not happening and something needs to change. I also agree with the person above that said all UL really needs is a longer enrage timer. I think that would solve, or at least go a long way toward a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iusCogens Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Ravagers is not difficult. All you need is competent tanks and healer, the rest of the mechanic of DPS boils down to "pew pew and don't stand in stupid". That is all. Really makes you wonder what the heck is wrong with people when they can't do something as simple as getting out of circles. So is Lurker when all mechanics are done properly, but I've learned that people who whine the loudest are usually those who die to rocks and cause red crosses. The simple fact is that ops are not meant to be "easy and fun". Fun, yes. Easy? No, not in a sense that you can complete one by rolling your face in the keyboard. If you think Lurker is hard, fighting Draxxus, Firebrand and Stormcaller tanks and Soa at level in starting gear is worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulyok Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 How expensive would be to make a real story difficulty for casuals, with casual rewards? I mean, it's just adjusting numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torvai Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 To the person who is against making story mode accessible to more people: nobody is trying to "take content away" from you. What we want is for story modes to be accessible to the most people possible and leave hard and nightmare modes for those of you who want a challenge and have the time to smash your head on the wall for weeks at a time. Some of us don't have the time to do that even though we have the skill and yes, some people have trouble learning mechanics and don't want to play a game as a second job or worry about min/maxing, but that doesn't mean we don't deserve to see ALL of the content and your suggestion of that is just straight up elitist. That's why I said casual =I bads. Casuals can clear Storymode. Bads can't. And those are the people crying for nerfs because they are unable to even learn the basics of their class, tactics and the game mechanics in general. Mostly getting the nerfs they cry for because bioware is afraid of losing customers/money. And thus they take away the bit of challenging content raiders, no matter their actual skill level(be it SM, HM, NiM) have left in the game. All we want is for there to be options for everyone to see all of the content and when there are bosses that are over-tuned in story mode like Underlurker that's not happening and something needs to change. I'm not against making the story aspects available to everyone. I'm simply against nerfing content that doesn't need a nerf. I wouldn't care if Bioware implemented solo missions that tell the same story as ops. Imo this would be the best they could do. Pleases everyone, the story people get what they want, we raiders get what we want. I also agree with the person above that said all UL really needs is a longer enrage timer. I think that would solve, or at least go a long way toward a solution. No, imo, what UL SM needs is a tweak to the cross mechanic. So that one individual can't screw a whole group by being in the wrong place. Basically make the cross green and don't deal any damage if there is at least one player positioned correctly on each side. Doesn't really change the mechanic, but leaves more room for mistakes, bad hardware, lag etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elusive_Thing Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Casual !=bads. But for both are plenty of activitys in the game. They don't need to do ops if they aren't able to. In fact, There's way more content for all those who just want to play and don't invest any "work" in the game, than there is halfway serious content. Why do these people always want to take the little we, that enjoy a challenge, have left, away from us? This isn't meant as insult, but the game is constantly dumbed down to cater to casuals and bads. If they can't or don't want to up their game, it's fine. But they should stay away from content that isn't meant for them. Oh, and if your "raiders" in your guild can't carry 2-4 people through story mode, to "hang out with their friends", they don't deserve to be called raiders. This. Casuals and bads are vastly different. Over the last few months I've introduced a few very casual, solo-content/RP-heavy guildies to raids and they listen, follow instructions and learn. Sure, we've wiped, had some healing and DPS issues, but I don't think we've had more than two wipes at any boss. Far as I know, they don't intend to start doing more than a raid per week, if that, so I'd say they are casuals, but definitely not bads. I don't mind carrying casuals (I am not that hardcore myself) or inexperienced people and I know I can do that. Bads are a different beast and I'll steer away from people I've recognised as consistent, long term liabilities. Furthermore, if I grab some friends and help casuals through content, I am more likely to get more people raiding in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corcode Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 No, imo, what UL SM needs is a tweak to the cross mechanic. So that one individual can't screw a whole group by being in the wrong place. Basically make the cross green and don't deal any damage if there is at least one player positioned correctly on each side. Doesn't really change the mechanic, but leaves more room for mistakes, bad hardware, lag etc. That would work well too. I initially agreed with a little bit longer enrage timer because then the mechanics don't change and it helps teach people to follow more difficult mechanics but I could see your idea of just slightly changing the cross mechanic for story mode working too. Personally I think think either would do well to up the accessibility of ToS story mode without drastically changing the fight overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pietrastor Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Lurker SM - remove melee damage from Lurkerings (what. the. fff. @ a mechanic that punishes solely Melee) - further decrease Lurkerings HP - increase enrage timer on boss by at least 1 min - either remove the cross or turn it into a simple circle and remove requirement for full group to be inside for the cross to turn green so that 1 person can't screw whole group - don't let NiM players be the only ones invited to test SM Operations in expansion again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardimuer Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Lurker SM - remove melee damage from Lurkerings (what. the. fff. @ a mechanic that punishes solely Melee) - further decrease Lurkerings HP - increase enrage timer on boss by at least 1 min - either remove the cross or turn it into a simple circle and remove requirement for full group to be inside for the cross to turn green so that 1 person can't screw whole group - don't let NiM players be the only ones invited to test SM Operations in expansion again Wow, sounds like you just turned Underlurker into "Walk in; collect gear." FYI, a lot of non-progression players were in the beta test and left operations feedback in the forums at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 (edited) One problem I see a lot is wasted DPS and no execution/burn phase call out. Former, while Dpsing one add at a time is fine on Burst specs for DoT specs it's easier to have certain people sit on a certain add. Many times I see people overheat applying new dots each time and losing DPS. The other no call out for burn, I have seen several times good burns each time but instead of burning after 4th cross (which is the best time to burn) they keep attacking adds. Edited August 14, 2015 by FerkWork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Lurker SM - remove melee damage from Lurkerings (what. the. fff. @ a mechanic that punishes solely Melee) - further decrease Lurkerings HP - increase enrage timer on boss by at least 1 min - either remove the cross or turn it into a simple circle and remove requirement for full group to be inside for the cross to turn green so that 1 person can't screw whole group - don't let NiM players be the only ones invited to test SM Operations in expansion again - Meele attack in my opinion is hilarious as its partial reason why PT AP with pyro shield get insane numbers - HP has been nerfed - We've been over this you need little more than 2k in this fight to pass. 2.5k with 4 DPS and 2 tanks. I got more than those numbers with 186 comm gear skank Dpsing HM in a spec I have no idea how to play. - As Torvai said, cross shouldn't fudge up cause 1 dingus. In my opinion I think having it just hit the person who wasn't in the cross would be fine. Then again it's not like you can't totally cheese the cross with Rebound, SR, Evasion, FC, Shroud etc... - Pretty sure it was more than that. I keep see this slinged around, with little evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pietrastor Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) Wow, sounds like you just turned Underlurker into "Walk in; collect gear."Sounds about right to make up for all the wipes Again and again, Bioware devs admited themselves TOS is played only by a fraction of the playerbase and everyone knows it's because of the Lurker. Content is literally wasting, Bioware knows it and does... nothing lol. All while TOS will remain the last new Operation till at least 2016. Edited August 15, 2015 by Pietrastor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Sounds about right to make up for all the wipes Again and again, Bioware devs admited themselves TOS is played only by a fraction of the playerbase and everyone knows it's because of the Lurker. Content is literally wasting, Bioware knows it and does... nothing lol. All while TOS will remain the last new Operation till at least 2016. Well if it's going to be the newest one for a while we can keep it at least not mind numbing otherwise people would get bored easily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pietrastor Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Well if it's going to be the newest one for a while we can keep it at least not mind numbing otherwise people would get bored easily They already got bored after wiping. Remind me the massive spike in EC popularity when 55 allowed easier time in it. That's right it never happened. To this day people dont wanna do it, along with LI/Kaon and have to be convinced how facerollish they are. Bad impressions stay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 They already got bored after wiping. Remind me the massive spike in EC popularity when 55 allowed easier time in it. That's right it never happened. To this day people dont wanna do it, along with LI/Kaon and have to be convinced how facerollish they are. Bad impressions stay Then they should learn the fights and Progress through them instead of expecting to face roll. Seriously, this game ain't hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladnar Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 sm should be a challenge that can be completed with a pug group once you have reasonably appropraite gear and just a hm version which you need to be well coordinated for.....i have nim down as a waste of time. So long in and underlurker is still too tough for way too many pug groups but otherwise its all been gr8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomiSotto Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 From what I have seen it's not the cross any more, it is the dps check. I think simply increasing the enrage timer will work just fine. People do the cross, or it can be healed through on SM. People can't put the adds down and kill the UL on time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pietrastor Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Then they should learn the fights and Progress through them instead of expecting to face roll. Seriously, this game ain't hard. Shoulda woulda coulda. This is a game that aims for millions of players, it is not niche/kickstarter RPG that can cater exclusively to hardcore players. Conclusion is simple - easy mode needs to exist and it needs to be easy mode. Hard Modes that way ---> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyroman Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Shoulda woulda coulda. This is a game that aims for millions of players, it is not niche/kickstarter RPG that can cater exclusively to hardcore players. Conclusion is simple - easy mode needs to exist and it needs to be easy mode. Hard Modes that way ---> There is an easy mode, it's called going the solo route, you don't miss any of the story by not going the operation. The only thing the operation gives that you can't get anywhere else is gear which unless you are going to do hm ops, is not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake_Chambers Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) There are going to be a lot of pug wipes come 65, this is easy mode and people are really used to it Edited August 17, 2015 by Jake_Chambers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 There are going to be a lot of pug wipes come 65, this is easy mode and people are really used to it A few days ago I had a pug wipe on Commanders SM due to enrage. Achievement Unlocked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loc_n_lol Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 A few days ago I had a pug wipe on Commanders SM due to enrage. Achievement Unlocked Is that even a thing ? how do you beat lurker yet wipe on commanders ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Is that even a thing ? how do you beat lurker yet wipe on commanders ? I didn't know either. I was actually shocked that there was an enrage in SM. Someone had a lockout. I thought to myself sweet easy money and I'm bored anyways so let's go. Apparently it was 2 stronk for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuttenbach Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 From what I have seen it's not the cross any more, it is the dps check. I think simply increasing the enrage timer will work just fine. People do the cross, or it can be healed through on SM. People can't put the adds down and kill the UL on time. From what i've seen it's not even dps check most of the time. It's lack of coordination. People running around, dpsing the wrong target, hiding behind 3 rocks in the opposite corners of the room and then wasting dps time just to get to the cross. All that puts a lot of extra strain on the whole group. Had a pug run this weekend, with one player who actually took time to micromanage the Lurker fight. He assigned dpses on the specific adds, proposed the places to group etc. We still missed all the crosses due to a couple newbies who were overwhelmed by all the things going on at once, but we did not wipe and i was surprised how easy it went. The adds were melting, and we had more than enough time to dps the Lurker himself. And no, there were no "5K" dpses in the group, just the usual ones -- some good, some not so. We did a second run later with minor changes to the group, and it was a clean run again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elusive_Thing Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 A few days ago I had a pug wipe on Commanders SM due to enrage. Achievement Unlocked I replaced a healer in a group that had cleared Lurker like a month ago and the same thing happened. Twice. I thanked and left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoppinswtor Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) Underlurker is probably the only fight in Rav/ToS SM that can't be 4-manned. It's a very easy 5-man though. Malaphar can probably be 2 or 3-manned. Walkers is an easy 4-man as long as the better geared DPS stays on the bosses. However, the adds in Underlurker make it hard for 2 dps to keep up (requiring a 3 DPS/1 healer comp), and without a tank the healer can fall behind easily. I mean it's probably possible for a well-geared, highly skilled team to still 4-man Underlurker in a 192/198 mix. Edited August 21, 2015 by Hoppinswtor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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