Reasons, Bioware. We NEED REASONS!

[FerkWork]

Hey look....reading out of context. If you go down further he says...

 

 

 

The first bit is you underline is about them hearing there is a problem. Then they went looking for the source of the problem. In finding the source we have the above quote.

 

Play style isn't necessarily OPness or buffing.The issue being referred to indirectly is Annihilation and the long rotation with 3 DoT's compared to the previous iteration where it was short DoT's which made it a unique class to play. I personally disagree with the change as classes should have a unique play style.

[Ghisallo]

Players have their data achived from... players.

And combat team have their data achived from... whatever they get it.

 

But you forgot onle little thingy... PLAYERS ARE THE ONE WHO ACTUALlY PLAY THE GAME!

That players are the the ones who design rotations, tactics and everything else.

Did you EVER find a guide that was written by COMBAT TEAM?

I bet you don't.

So who should i trust?

 

Players "parsers", who actually KNOW the game.

Or

Combat team mythical "datamining"?

 

My choice is for "anecdotal evidence" of players, which is FAR more trusted than Combat team.

 

But devs use all of the Data not just voluntary data. Example the quote I note above. They look at the data the game itself generates for ALL characters, compare it to the internal targets then decide who gets nerfed and by how much. Using a voluntary web site that relies on 3rd party software to participate is NOT a good data set. Not only do you have the voluntary issue but on a site like that there is no way to account for gear, stims and other relevant data that can alter dps numbers nor is there a standardized time. In my experience I have found parses shorter than 5 minutes to be a waste and easily exploited due to cooldowns and the like. That web site link I responded to proves this because ALL of the top parses I looked at averaged around 3 minutes which would put it right in time with ending the parse intentionally after the expiration of all your CDs that just came back online AND the classes in question are burstie classes to boot. I am SHOCKED a bursty class is doing so well on a 186 second parse

 

If you search for TK and Lightning you will see that the parses average at least 30 seconds longer....why because they aren't as bursty...they have to "spin up dps more" but even there the parses are clearly being cut short... the top parse are at around 4 minutes in length.

 

So you have a voluntary and limited source... that does not account for gear differences and other dps modifiers, that does not have a standardized time to remove the issue of burst vs steady damage and exploiting cooldown rotations. Then you ask me if I trust the source?

 

That's like asking if I would trust a popularity poll for Obama taken at a Republican convention.

[Ghisallo]

Play style isn't necessarily OPness or buffing.The issue being referred to indirectly is Annihilation and the long rotation with 3 DoT's compared to the previous iteration where it was short DoT's which made it a unique class to play. I personally disagree with the change as classes should have a unique play style.

 

My point was more that the poster I was responding to seemed to say "hey they say they want people to be happy but they nerfed us knowing we would be unhappy" and ignored the full context of the post where it says that a large part of the performance issue that has some players unhappy is not that they are under performing but that others are over performing. You fix over performing classes. If you said "well we need to keep them the same to prevent emo" you break things.

[FerkWork]

My point was more that the poster I was responding to seemed to say "hey they say they want people to be happy but they nerfed us knowing we would be unhappy" and ignored the full context of the post where it says that a large part of the performance issue that has some players unhappy is not that they are under performing but that others are over performing. You fix over performing classes. If you said "well we need to keep them the same to prevent emo" you break things.

 

I did not read that posters QQ as it ignores what BW is addressing. I was pointing out what was the actual point that BW was addressing in adressing play style. To be either nerf or buff has the potential to unbalance things, but I agree that an arms race would make PvP ubearable with TTK going of the scale.

However, as was pointed out in another BW thread on PTS, serveral of the bosses in the HM require major DPS checks to pass them (Torque, Ruuger, Revan). If Overall DPS of classes are brought down they must work with the OPs team to make sure that these DPS checks and the ones in future NiM are passable at the bar they set.

[Kingsbount]

Snip

 

Yet you didn't provide ANY proof.

Only words.

YOUR words.

Not even Devs.

You just keep protecting BW Combat team like you working for them.

 

Again.

Please SHOW me proofs that Lightning Sorc was Overperfoming in single target rotation, so he was deserve a nerf.

Especially compared other ranged classes.

Do me that favor please.

 

Otherwise - your words are worthless.

[FerkWork]

Yet you didn't provide ANY proof.

Only words.

YOUR words.

Not even Devs.

You just keep protecting BW Combat team like you working for them.

 

Again.

Please SHOW me proofs that Lightning Sorc was Overperfoming in single target rotation, so he was deserve a nerf.

Especially compared other ranged classes.

Do me that favor please.

 

Otherwise - your words are worthless.

 

BW isn't just addressing Sorcs.

Also this gives why DPS was reduced instead of buffed

Edited April 9, 2015 by FerkWork

[DarthDymond]

BW isn't just addressing Sorcs.

Also this gives why DPS was reduced instead of buffed

Don't waste your time, in his mind he's already decided that what the devs actually say and the reasons they give are just lies they're making up for the heck of it.

 

The discussion is a non-starter since the reasoning is prefaced on the comprehensive data set that only BW has access to, but some people just flat out do not believe BW's word on what that data shows. If they don't trust the only source we have for the relevant info, then there's nothing to discuss.

[Ghisallo]

Yet you didn't provide ANY proof.

Only words.

YOUR words.

Not even Devs.

You just keep protecting BW Combat team like you working for them.

 

Again.

Please SHOW me proofs that Lightning Sorc was Overperfoming in single target rotation, so he was deserve a nerf.

Especially compared other ranged classes.

Do me that favor please.

 

Otherwise - your words are worthless.

 

No they are not. And I did state facts that undermine the data you want to hang your hat on. See here is the thing. I NEVER claimed that Bioware is doing the "right" thing with the data. All I said is that they have access to reliable data.

 

In this situation it is people that are against Bioware's change that have to prove things. To do that you need to produce reliable data. I showed how the data is not reliable and is thus not "proof" that Bioware's data is wrong due to said unreliability.

 

I do not have to prove the Bioware is right and you are wrong. As I engage in something commonly called critical thinking all I need to do is show the data you use to support your contention is inherently unreliable for the reasons I noted.

 

I know... Logic on an MMO forum. Who would have thought it huh?

[ivanhedgehog]

Facts are only as useful as their quality. Additionally the facts do not address the key issue. The issue at question was far more HOW the dps is achieved. An AoE should simply not be the key component of a ST rotation. Finally a voluntary parse site amounts to anecdotal evidence which is only of limited value.

 

how exactly does nerfing the elements of the single target rotation do ANYTHING to remove the AOE from it?

[Ghisallo]

how exactly does nerfing the elements of the single target rotation do ANYTHING to remove the AOE from it?

 

they changed a lot of everything....especially in the ST. They did not just nerf AoE. You started with the QQ fest before any reasonable testing could be expected on real encounters. Why don't you test it... then post your actual data... then complain. instead of a QQ fest with no supporting data?

 

These games in the end are NOTHING but math. It's all zeros and ones. I am a sage main and guess what..... I said"goodness I am not over powering my Vigilant guardian and Deception Operative Anymore....gee that's refreshing."

 

What I especially love is how yo completely changed the direction of our argument. The drastic change of arguments is the first sign of an eroding position due to a lack of logical basis..

Edited April 9, 2015 by Ghisallo

[ivanhedgehog]

they changed a lot of everything....especially in the ST. They did not just nerf AoE. You started with the QQ fest before any reasonable testing could be expected on real encounters. Why don't you test it... then post your actual data... then complain. instead of a QQ fest with no supporting data?

 

These games in the end are NOTHING but math. It's all zeros and ones. I am a sage main and guess what..... I said"goodness I am not over powering my Vigilant guardian and Deception Operative Anymore....gee that's refreshing."

 

What I especially love is how yo completely changed the direction of our argument. The drastic change of arguments is the first sign of an eroding position due to a lack of logical basis..

 

learn to read. you stated that they changes were to stop people from using an AOE in a single target rotation. I asked a simple question. WHAT DOES NERFING ST DAMAGE POWERS DO TO STOP USING AOES? it is a simple question, no QQ involved. You may need to get someone to explain it to you in small words. Its like kicking one dog because another is barking. not going to do what you intended.

 

as to balance, if one person in a footrace has a broken leg, breaking all the other runners legs is not considered a good idea. maybe getting the hurt runner help would be better. but when they do break my leg, I wont think "goodness, now I wont make that guy look bad. " Instead of bringing everyone to the bottom, how about having them meet in the middle. buff up the underperformers a little and nerf the overs a little till you have a happy medium. that is generally much better received. the combat team has an arbitrary dps goal that the ops team doesnt pay attention to when they design. this is a problem

[azudelphi]

learn to read. you stated that they changes were to stop people from using an AOE in a single target rotation. I asked a simple question. WHAT DOES NERFING ST DAMAGE POWERS DO TO STOP USING AOES? it is a simple question, no QQ involved. You may need to get someone to explain it to you in small words. Its like kicking one dog because another is barking. not going to do what you intended.

 

Force Storm change reduced AoE and ST damage.

 

Other changes to bring ST damage in line with them intended metrics (in theory). I've seen people report anywhere from a 200-400 single target dps decrease as a result of these changes. I would expect to see changes to Mercs, Mandos, Slinglers, and Snipers (for their respective OP specs) in 3.2 or 3.2.1.

[Ghisallo]

learn to read. you stated that they changes were to stop people from using an AOE in a single target rotation. I asked a simple question. WHAT DOES NERFING ST DAMAGE POWERS DO TO STOP USING AOES? it is a simple question, no QQ involved. You may need to get someone to explain it to you in small words. Its like kicking one dog because another is barking. not going to do what you intended.

 

as to balance, if one person in a footrace has a broken leg, breaking all the other runners legs is not considered a good idea. maybe getting the hurt runner help would be better. but when they do break my leg, I wont think "goodness, now I wont make that guy look bad. " Instead of bringing everyone to the bottom, how about having them meet in the middle. buff up the underperformers a little and nerf the overs a little till you have a happy medium. that is generally much better received. the combat team has an arbitrary dps goal that the ops team doesnt pay attention to when they design. this is a problem

 

Clearly logic and reason are lost on you. You can not simply change one ability in a class and leave everything else untouched an achieve a desired goal in an MMO. Additionally Force storm/quake was not the only problem it was simply th e BIGGEST problem.

 

We get it. You are pissed. However beyond self righteous and baseless rage you have presented nothing. Anyone with half a brain who bothered to look at balance and not "their" character was saying from the launch of 3.0 this was going to happen. You can go to the Sage TK guide on Dulfy's site and see that that the guide writer said it was going to happen. The only people shocked and/or surprised are people who are so self-absorbed as to not see the world around them.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Ghisallo

[ivanhedgehog]

Clearly logic and reason are lost on you. You can not simply change one ability in a class and leave everything else untouched an achieve a desired goal in an MMO. Additionally Force storm/quake was not the only problem it was simply th e BIGGEST problem.

 

We get it. You are pissed. However beyond self righteous and baseless rage you have presented nothing. Anyone with half a brain who bothered to look at balance and not "their" character was saying from the launch of 3.0 this was going to happen. You can go to the Sage TK guide on Dulfy's site and see that that the guide writer said it was going to happen. The only people shocked and/or surprised are people who are so self-absorbed as to not see the world around them.

 

the standard response from the nerf criers is "they are using an aoe in a st rotation" which is what I was replying to. My sorc has always been madness,I enjoy the way it plays too much to chase lightning. If all the other attacks in the sorc/sage chain are so OP, go ahead and nerf them. that will affect the st chain and not an aoe. I dont really care how bad they screw up balance while refusing to adjust content to match. I see more raid groups leaving the game all the time. it wouldnt be the first time game devs have killed a game by refusing to work with eachother.

[Ghisallo]

the standard response from the nerf criers is "they are using an aoe in a st rotation" which is what I was replying to. My sorc has always been madness,I enjoy the way it plays too much to chase lightning. If all the other attacks in the sorc/sage chain are so OP, go ahead and nerf them. that will affect the st chain and not an aoe. I dont really care how bad they screw up balance while refusing to adjust content to match. I see more raid groups leaving the game all the time. it wouldnt be the first time game devs have killed a game by refusing to work with eachother.

 

Simply because the biggest outlier became the "standard complaint" does NOT mean it was the only issue. I don't know if you are purposely being myopic or not but you will rarely IRL, let alone of a game forum see people do a blow by blow of every issues. Additionally the "standard complaint" from those angry at the change is "fs/fq is now useless. I used to kill a group of weak mobs with one channel and now sometimes I die"

 

There were other issues as well, they just weren't the OBVIOUS issue. Think of it like the patient who was beaten and then shot. Most are going to say "omg he was shot" and focus on that...not the black eyes, broken nose and the concussion. Even people who see the black eyes and broken nose will be more concerned about the gun shot wound. When the doc goes to work on the patient however he has to address all the injuries.

 

You are basically acting like the suspect who "just" beat the guy. You are saying hey "everyone is saying he was shot why am I getting charged with assault?" because you don't like the nerf and refuse to even consider if it was necessary or not. The single target damage took MAYBE a 5-10% hit, if you use the right rotation and yeah the AoE took a bigger hit but it needed it. The main issue seems to be that, as one honest person said elsewhere, "6 months in I don't want to relearn my class.". The problem is most players aren't even honest with themselves about that being the core issue.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Ghisallo

[ImmortalLowlife]

...GIVE US REASONS.

 

Ok....I finally found them! Here you go

[EyesOfRed]

just levelling madness I remember multiple times laughing and saying "How can this even exist like this?".

 

FS for a few ticks and DF. done. on higher level groups even, FS-DF-Overload-FS would decimate groups.

It was kind of silly. Seems though they would've not needed to shorten the cast time. I dont even know that the snare was that critical, but I don't pvp, I liked it to kite mobs. reminded me of Frost Mage AOE grinding.

 

the snare I could take or leave, and the damage needed lessened considerably, but it should still be the best ability to use in 3-4+ mob situations I think. This is all guess work though, I haven't hopped back on that toon since the change. I wouldn't expect any huge issues though. I often times wouldn't spam it because it was crazy boring. My girlfriend laid on that ability though hahaha. she was lightning, so makes sense i guess.

 

edit: she rolled a BH. its ~ level 10. lololol

Edited April 10, 2015 by EyesOfRed