Ideal Tank Stats

[Hawk_IV]

Is there a rough estimate for gearing tanks in 4.0 yet? I know the information for the level 65 ops isn't out yet, so no worries about exact numbers yet. But what can I shoot for as a casual player?

Are the stats (below) WAYYY off? Can you give me a better estimate for stats when I look in my character sheet?

 

Thanks for all your hard work, math-geniuses

 

 

Shadow:

25% Defense

40% Shield (like 65% with Kinetic Ward?)

60% Absorb

 

Guardian:

25% Defense

45% Shield

42% Absorb

 

Vanguard:

20% Defense

55% Shield

53% Absorb

 

[truevalon]

Is there a rough estimate for gearing tanks in 4.0 yet? I know the information for the level 65 ops isn't out yet, so no worries about exact numbers yet. But what can I shoot for as a casual player?

Are the stats (below) WAYYY off? Can you give me a better estimate for stats when I look in my character sheet?

 

Thanks for all your hard work, math-geniuses

 

 

Shadow:

25% Defense

40% Shield (like 65% with Kinetic Ward?)

60% Absorb

 

Guardian:

25% Defense

45% Shield

42% Absorb

 

Vanguard:

20% Defense

55% Shield

53% Absorb

 

 

Given the itemization we have seen I would say those stats are way off.

[Hawk_IV]

Given the itemization we have seen I would say those stats are way off.

 

Ok then would you be so kind as to give me better stats than just telling me I'm way off? XD k thanks buddy

[AutoCocker]

No one knows till it goes live but if i were to take a wild guess I would say defense will be much higher than 20% while shield/absorb much lower. Like if on a PT/VG and trying to keep shield/abso even I would say 40% or less. Especially since for whatever reason they decided to get rid of abso mods, shield/abso enhancements and ear/implants. Again till it goes live it's just speculation at this point. Edited October 16, 2015 by AutoCocker

[Hawk_IV]

No one knows till it goes live but if i were to take a wild guess I would say defense will be much higher than 20% while shield/absorb much lower. Like if on a PT/VG and trying to keep shield/abso even I would say 40% or less. Especially since for whatever reason they decided to get rid of abso mods, shield/abso enhancements and ear/implants. Again till it goes live it's just speculation at this point.

 

That much more Defense? Ok then, maybe something more around these lines?

 

 

Shadow

Defense: 35%

Shield: 35% (50% with Kinetic Ward)

Absorb: 50%

 

Guardian

Defense: 40% (45% with Riposte)

Shield: 30%

Absorb: 27% (30% with Warding Strike)

 

Vanguard:

Defense: 35%

Shield: 40%

Absorb: 40%

 

remember these are just speculations.

I also feel like I'm probably jumping the gun and I should just wait for 4.0... problem is I'm too excited for that. XD

I just want to play it now! haha

[Gardimuer]

No one knows till it goes live but if i were to take a wild guess I would say defense will be much higher than 20% while shield/absorb much lower. Like if on a PT/VG and trying to keep shield/abso even I would say 40% or less. Especially since for whatever reason they decided to get rid of abso mods, shield/abso enhancements and ear/implants. Again till it goes live it's just speculation at this point.

 

With so much forced Defense in tanking gear, tabulating stat optimization gets simpler.

 

We know that for gear tier X you will have Y amount of defense in Mods, and no one will need/want to take more Defense in Enhancements or Augments because the damage profile of operation bosses just doesn't need it. This means that the only variation would be in how much Shield Rating vs. how much Absorb rating to take, traded at a 1:1 ratio.

 

My guess:

 

The variation in shield vs. absorb will depend on the innate passives of each tanking class. For instance, Shadows/Assassins get a lot of free shield rating in their spec, so Absorb could be more valuable than Shield to them. Vanguards/Powertechs get a lot of free absorb in their spec, so Shield rating might be better for them.

 

But this would also vary depending on how "spikey" a bosses' damage profile is. Taking more shield would mean shielding more often, and that would decrease the likelihood of taking several large spikes in a row before healers have time to react. Taking more absorb, on the other hand, might give better average DTpS in fights that are less spikey.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Gardimuer

[Hawk_IV]

With so much forced Defense in tanking gear, tabulating stat optimization gets simpler.

 

We know that for gear tier X you will have Y amount of defense in Mods, and no one will need/want to take more Defense in Enhancements or Augments because the damage profile of operation bosses just doesn't need it. This means that the only variation would be in how much Shield Rating vs. how much Absorb rating to take, traded at a 1:1 ratio.

 

My guess:

 

The variation in shield vs. absorb will depend on the innate passives of each tanking class. For instance, Shadows/Assassins get a lot of free shield rating in their spec, so Absorb could be more valuable than Shield to them. Vanguards/Powertechs get a lot of free absorb in their spec, so Shield rating might be better for them.

 

But this would also vary depending on how "spikey" a bosses' damage profile is. Taking more shield would mean shielding more often, and that would decrease the likelihood of taking several large spikes in a row before healers have time to react. Taking more absorb, on the other hand, might give better average DTpS in fights that are less spikey.

 

So in other words, stat distribution is ridiculously easy in 4.0? The thought of all mods having defense sounds dumb...

And it doesn't sound good for this thread

All enhancements will be shield/absorb enhancements then and all augs will balance what you need (whether it be shield or absorb). Hmmmm

[AutoCocker]

There are no shield/abso enhancements in 4.0 though. Only def/abso and def/shield.

[Torvai]

Anybody else thinking about using power mods, instead of defense? At least partly, since nobody needs that much, if it is still calculated the same way.

[KeyboardNinja]

Anybody else thinking about using power mods, instead of defense? At least partly, since nobody needs that much, if it is still calculated the same way.

 

Rule number one of gearing: make the numbers bigger. More defense > anything-not-mitigation.

 

As a min-maxer, I like to delude myself that the things I do make a huge difference. They don't. Min-maxing has, at most, a 10-15% impact on the performance of your gear. Getting a larger stat budget has a much, much, MUCH more significant impact.

 

Defense is over-statted in this expansion, yes, but it's still going to be better than non-mitigation stats. With that said, I don't think there's any question that B mods will be BiS by a mile.

[TestofFaith]

Taking a different angle on this, my first impression with the much lower available shield/absorb, or rather that you will have to pick between one or the other, is what about resource management? Both the VG/PT and SHD/SIN rely on shielding attacks to regen their resource and keep their rotations alive, as well as to proc other defensive/mitigation based abilities. Even with the high numbers attainable in 3.0 this can sometimes leave us hitting "dry" pockets where we have to spam basic attacks to give resources a sec or two to build. Will this be meaningfully (negatively) impacted or is it not really an issue?

 

Also, I have not seen or played PTS for 4.0 so I'm not sure, but folks are stating/assuming that all mods will be defense. Why is that? Currently, the mods have the defense/absorb stat tier. If defense is being moved out of that tier and shield is being moved in, and if nothing changes about the stat slots themselves on the gear, wouldn't this leave mods to have either shield or absorb in place of the old defense/absorb? Many of you have more experience and are much more savy (yes, I'm eyeing you KBN, Aelanis, etc. :-P ) so hopefully there isn't something obvious that I'm missing. Thanks!

Edited October 19, 2015 by TestofFaith

[Hawk_IV]

Taking a different angle on this, my first impression with the much lower available shield/absorb, or rather that you will have to pick between one or the other, is what about resource management? Both the VG/PT and SHD/SIN rely on shielding attacks to regen their resource and keep their rotations alive, as well as to proc other defensive/mitigation based abilities. Even with the high numbers attainable in 3.0 this can sometimes leave us hitting "dry" pockets where we have to spam basic attacks to give resources a sec or two to build. Will this be meaningfully (negatively) impacted or is it not really an issue?

 

Also, I have not seen or played PTS for 4.0 so I'm not sure, but folks are stating/assuming that all mods will be defense. Why is that? Currently, the mods have the defense/absorb stat tier. If defense is being moved out of that tier and shield is being moved in, and if nothing changes about the stat slots themselves on the gear, wouldn't this leave mods to have either shield or absorb in place of the old defense/absorb? Many of you have more experience and are much more savy (yes, I'm eyeing you KBN, Aelanis, etc. :-P ) so hopefully there isn't something obvious that I'm missing. Thanks!

 

"Lastly, we have rearranged how we distribute ratings on items. Now, Power and defense share the first rating slot on modifications, while the rest of the stats (Accuracy, Alacrity, Critical, Absorb, and Shield) will share the second rating slot."

-Rob Hinkle, Lead Systems Designer

(Combat Changes in Fallen Empire)

 

Does this answer your question?

[KeyboardNinja]

Taking a different angle on this, my first impression with the much lower available shield/absorb, or rather that you will have to pick between one or the other, is what about resource management? Both the VG/PT and SHD/SIN rely on shielding attacks to regen their resource and keep their rotations alive, as well as to proc other defensive/mitigation based abilities. Even with the high numbers attainable in 3.0 this can sometimes leave us hitting "dry" pockets where we have to spam basic attacks to give resources a sec or two to build. Will this be meaningfully (negatively) impacted or is it not really an issue?

 

Both Vanguards/Powertechs and Shadows/Assassins have procs which work on both shielding and defense. Shadows/Assassins have actually always been like this (literally since 1.0), since they are reliant on both defense and shield as general mechanisms. Vanguards/Powertechs were the last of the three tanks to get diversity in their proc generators.

 

So, resources shouldn't be a problem in general. Defense does provide a lower percentage return per point than shield does, so that will impact resource generation slightly, but it shouldn't be noticeable.

 

Also, I have not seen or played PTS for 4.0 so I'm not sure, but folks are stating/assuming that all mods will be defense. Why is that? Currently, the mods have the defense/absorb stat tier. If defense is being moved out of that tier and shield is being moved in, and if nothing changes about the stat slots themselves on the gear, wouldn't this leave mods to have either shield or absorb in place of the old defense/absorb? Many of you have more experience and are much more savy (yes, I'm eyeing you KBN, Aelanis, etc. :-P ) so hopefully there isn't something obvious that I'm missing. Thanks!

 

Well, any and all PTS stuff would be under NDA. So aside from what the devs have said, or data mined information (which is against the forums ToS), we don't really know anything.

 

With that said, the information we have been given from the devs does confirm that the only tanking mods will be mastery+endurance+defense. There will be no shield or absorb mods.

[TestofFaith]

"Lastly, we have rearranged how we distribute ratings on items. Now, Power and defense share the first rating slot on modifications, while the rest of the stats (Accuracy, Alacrity, Critical, Absorb, and Shield) will share the second rating slot."

-Rob Hinkle, Lead Systems Designer

(Combat Changes in Fallen Empire)

 

Thanks Hawk for posting that there. Made it easy to access :-) . Prior to 4.0, the first rating slot on modifications (not to confuse with "mods" ) was shield, alacrity, accuracy, and surge while the second slot was defense, power, critical, and absorb. So mods had mainstat+end+slot 2, and enhancements had end+slot 1+slot 2.

 

With the above wording, it implies that the first slot rating, previously only on enhancements, has now had accuracy, alacrity, and shield moved out, eliminated surge, and had power and defense moved in. Again, if no other changes to the slots themselves have been made, this would leave the "mods" modifications to have any slot 2 stat (Accuracy, Alacrity, Critical, Absorb, or Shield), correct?

 

EDIT: Never mind, KBN cleared it up there at the end of his post while I was typing this :-P Thanks guys.

Edited October 19, 2015 by TestofFaith

[Gardimuer]

the following list contains the conversions for consumable items which are no longer craftable:

...

Exotech absorb adrenal <1:1> prototype nano-infused absorb adrenal

 

r.i.p.

[KeyboardNinja]

r.i.p.

 

Yeah. Don't get me started. This is a bigger deal than the defense thing.

[Torvai]

Rule number one of gearing: make the numbers bigger. More defense > anything-not-mitigation.

 

As a min-maxer, I like to delude myself that the things I do make a huge difference. They don't. Min-maxing has, at most, a 10-15% impact on the performance of your gear. Getting a larger stat budget has a much, much, MUCH more significant impact.

 

Defense is over-statted in this expansion, yes, but it's still going to be better than non-mitigation stats. With that said, I don't think there's any question that B mods will be BiS by a mile.

 

Well, for us Juggs power is some sort of defensive stat, cause of sonic barrier and ED

 

Yeah. Don't get me started. This is a bigger deal than the defense thing.

 

Yeah.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Torvai

[truevalon]

Rule number one of gearing: make the numbers bigger. More defense > anything-not-mitigation.

 

As a min-maxer, I like to delude myself that the things I do make a huge difference. They don't. Min-maxing has, at most, a 10-15% impact on the performance of your gear. Getting a larger stat budget has a much, much, MUCH more significant impact.

 

Defense is over-statted in this expansion, yes, but it's still going to be better than non-mitigation stats. With that said, I don't think there's any question that B mods will be BiS by a mile.

 

 

As a fellow min/maxer I would argue that 10-15% is a significant difference.

[Torvai]

As a fellow min/maxer I would argue that 10-15% is a significant difference.

 

Not really. Say you're taking 2.5k dtps. Even 15% more and you'd only sit at 2875 dtps. The difference isn't that much and, imo, doesn't matter up to a point where healers have 100% ehps and still can't keep up. Which'll never happen. So yeah, gearing on a tank is important, but active mitigation, be it rotational, ie keeping buffs and debuffs active or cooldown usage, plays a much bigger role.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Torvai

[truevalon]

Not really. Say you're taking 2.5k dtps. Even 15% more and you'd only sit at 2875 dtps. The difference isn't that much and, imo, doesn't matter up to a point where healers have 100% ehps and still can't keep up. Which'll never happen. So yeah, gearing on a tank is important, but active mitigation, be it rotational, ie keeping buffs and debuffs active or cooldown usage, plays a much bigger role.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but as a tank I would consider a a 15% gear improvement to be 15% less damage taken. In which case that 2.5dtps would become 2125 dtps. A reduction of near 400 dtps.

 

While your example show a increase in dtps. I think you got your math turned upside down there.

Edited October 20, 2015 by truevalon

[KeyboardNinja]

Correct me if I am wrong, but as a tank I would consider a a 15% gear improvement to be 15% less damage taken. In which case that 2.5dtps would become 2125 dtps. A reduction of near 400 dtps.

 

While your example show a increase in dtps. I think you got your math turned upside down there.

 

:-) I should have tried to give numbers for the "make the numbers bigger" case. The point is really the following…

 

Imagine you have a perfectly itemized set of gear. Every slot is within 1-2% of exactly right (basically, you've nailed it to the mathematical ideal, in so far as the game's mod system allows). Then a new piece drops. The enhancement in this new piece represents a significant jump in stat budget (think: subsequent tier), but it causes your itemization to be out of balance. Now you have too much shield and defense, and not enough absorb. Do you put the enhancement in your gear?

 

Answer: yes. Emphatically. The higher stat budget outweighs the imbalance in itemization.

 

So I'm not saying that min-maxing is useless. I'll take any advantage I can get! Just that min-maxing is less important than overall stat budget increases. If you have to pick between the two, pick the latter.

[Anariodin]

Prototype Anodyne Absorb Adrenal - Absorbs 20% of damage up to a large amount of damage for 15 seconds. (CD 3 mins) Damage absorbed scales by level up to level 57

 

Advanced Anodyne Absorb Adrenal - Increases Absorption and Shield rating by 750 for 15 seconds (CD 3 mins)

 

Is the prototype a typo or has it always been like that?

[Radongar]

So, first impressions from storymode:

 

Denova:

 

- Zorn & Toth (I did Toth):

Internal / Elemental: 3,6 % - 10.430

Kinetic / Energy: 94,4% - 275.924

Force / Tech: 12,7% - 36.309

Melee / Range 55,3% - 158.432

 

- Firebrand & Stormcaller (I did Firebrand)

Internal / Elemental: 0% - 0

Kinetic / Energy: 100% - 337.012

Force / Tech: 0% - 0

Melee / Range 98,3% - 331.290

 

-Colonel Vorgath

Internal / Elemental: 13,2 % - 36.100

Kinetic / Energy: 86,8% - 237.560

Force / Tech: 13,2% - 36.100

Melee / Range 65,4% - 179.104

 

- Warlord Kephess

Internal / Elemental: 13,3 % - 40.593

Kinetic / Energy: 84,3% - 258.110

Force / Tech: 13,3% - 40.593

Melee / Range 71,4% - 218.658

 

Dread Fortress:

 

-Nefra

Internal / Elemental: 9,1 % - 19.029

Kinetic / Energy: 90,9% - 190.146

Force / Tech: 9,1% - 19.029

Melee / Range 90,9% - 190.146

 

- Draxus

Internal / Elemental: 25,2 % - 76.038

Kinetic / Energy: 74,8% - 226.183

Force / Tech: 25,2% - 76.038

Melee / Range 71,0% - 214.478

 

- Grob'Thok

Internal / Elemental: 3,1 % - 8.118

Kinetic / Energy: 96,8% - 250.954

Force / Tech: 3,1% - 8.118

Melee / Range 89,5% - 231.821

 

- Corruptor Zero

uninteresting since I only tanked adds

 

- Brontes

Internal / Elemental: 46,1 % - 231.533

Kinetic / Energy: 53,9% - 270.718

Force / Tech: 48,8% - 245.070

Melee / Range 25,9% - 129.940

 

Dread Palace:

 

- Bestia (was afk xD)

 

- Tyrans

Internal / Elemental: 6,0 % - 34.698

Kinetic / Energy: 94,0% - 548.334

Force / Tech: 14,5% - 84.499

Melee / Range 45,2% - 263.661

 

- Calphayus

Internal / Elemental: 7,8 % - 23.183

Kinetic / Energy: 92,1%- 272.337

Force / Tech: 27,4% - 80.955

Melee / Range 68,7% - 203.030

 

- Raptus

Internal / Elemental: 12,3 % - 38.213

Kinetic / Energy: 87,6% - 271.592

Force / Tech: 39,5% - 122.495

Melee / Range 32,9% - 101.840

 

I was fully bolstered, unfortunately I did not write the deffstats down but I think it is quite obvious, that we have a huge increase in dodgeable damage.

 

Hope you can do s.th. with this. (for combatlog - see: http://www.filedropper.com/combat2015-10-20205158597019

 

Cheers

Aristo

[g_land]

With so much defense rating gear we are going to see more damage spikes which make B mods better similar to last tier. Oh yay! 90k hp tanks incoming

[KeyboardNinja]

Something to think about…

 

Story Mode has always had more defendable damage than hard and nightmare modes. This comes from the fact that part of what makes HM and NiM harder is sharper spikes against tanks, accomplished both by amping up the weaker SM spike attacks and by adding new attacks. These spike hits are almost always force/tech damage, which pushes the proportions a bit.

 

It's been a really long time since I've looked at the damage ratios for SM Denova, but your numbers seem about in line with what I remember. (oddly, I do actually have the old 1.0 NiM Denova, EV and KP numbers, but nothing lower than that)