Is it time to refresh the Subscriber/F2P model?

[Ghisallo]

See the thing is I don't think people signed on to play a BW TOR game that was simply multiplayer. Bioware's metrics say the same. People left for the same reason many left ESO. They came expecting an MMO and found it wasn't one. Here are the rather honest and imo insightful reason Bioware noted, at GDC 2013, SWTOR flopped after launch. (James Ohlen gave the presentation.)

 

The Bioware team had major issues. They had never worked with the engine, never worked with a team anywhere near as large (over 300 people) and had morale issues as a result of the resignation of the co-founders. As such the Bioware team retreated to their comfort zone, the story based RPG...NOT the MMORPG they were intending on making.

 

To make matters worse they had estimated it would take players 3-5 months to reach end game... This was part of what justified their retreat into their comfort zone.

 

 

Some of the risks that we identified going into launch were becoming worse than we thought... The most worrisome was that people were going through the content a lot faster than we expected. We had expected our playerbase to play through the game and get to the endgame, on average, in about three to four months, maybe five months. It was 170-180 hours of content. But our metrics were showing us that, on average, for the millions of people playing our game, they were going through the game at a rate of 40 hours a week..."[40 hours a week] was the average! We actually had people doing 80 to 100 to 120 hours a week, which I can't even comprehend."

 

 

He continued...

 

 

"We had people going through the game so fast that within one month, four to five weeks, we suddenly had close to half a million people at the endgame. It was something we didn't expect at all. We had all those people at the endgame and suddenly certain things like having only one Operation, and having no group finder [tool] become much bigger challenges than what we thought they were going to be."

 

 

So perhaps some people disagree BUT Bioware has decided that their failure, and why people left, was because due to internal issues and an under estimation on content consumption, the game appeared to be a BW TOR game with a group option when they intended to be an MMORPG with a story option. With this philosophy in mind they have built the foundation. They have a greater focus on end game content, FPs and OPs, and also due to becoming the number 4 Multiplayer (revenue wise) in 2013 and likely top ten in 2014 (when you add in SoR revenue still waiting on the financial) they have the budget to speed up the development cycle on this plan. BTW the games that dumped them out of the top 5 in 2014 are, MOBAs (league of legends, World of tanks, etc.). Without these added to the metric it is still well into the top 10. When you take into account most of these other games are in the Asian market BIG TIME its not bad at all.

 

Now maybe some people here think this is the wrong direction. Maybe they want a game like ESO, a single player story game with a group option. That is NOT Bioware's plan though and from the metrics they looked at during the flop, they have the data to back it up.

[Culbrelai]

I subbed a few times with those one time payment blocks, i can't see myself paying monthly for a game, however. If SWTOR never went F2p I would never have played it, similarly I have never played WoW or any other sub only game.

 

Atm on the 7 day sub link thing, spending all my accumulated 135m that has been in escrow since f2p launched, and never subbing again =p

[Bobs_YourUncle]

Instead of thinking of F2P as a comparison to sub, try thinking of it as a chance to test the waters before deciding to buy the product, or not. I've always been one convinced I didn't have the time to play a game online that would warrant purchasing a subscription, so when I was looking for a new game to play, and came across swtor and saw it was free, I shrugged and decided to try it out. I subbed in 2 months.

 

I didn't sub because I ran into any restrictions or a pay wall. I actually leveled two characters past 40 and only ran into one purple item that dropped and I couldn't equip it. There was only one instance I ran my credit total above 200k, and that was because I had nothing to spend credits on that I knew of. There was the chat thing (you get unlimited access to chat feature on starting planet to ask questions) that was kind of annoying at times so I'll give you that. Anyways, I subbed because the game was worth 15 bucks a month for me. Hell, spend 5 bucks on the game and you get no chat restrictions and other features are available.

 

Bottom line is, I cant understand what exactly the gripe here is. This quality of game is available to you for FREE. 8 ENTIRE storylines! *** do you really want?

[LyraineAlei]

honestly I have no faith they will do a better job either Atree

 

But thats what they need to do to attract and retain more subs.

 

Up their production

Up their standards

Up their quality

make a better product that's so addictive people will want to play long term

 

And honestly, its not as hard or overwhelming as it sounds.

All the answers are out there already over the last 24 years of the MMORPG genre

just need Devs to stop looking at WOW and start looking at everything to see what works and what doesn't.

 

I'm willing to bet the Devs have been looking beyond WoW, but it's their bosses and the ones more focused on milk the $$$$ out of us who aren't looking beyond emulating WoW.

 

Also, because I'm too lazy to hit quote and select new tab then copy-paste:

 

My understanding was that TOR was originally going to be KOTOR III, but someone in the higher ups decided that an MMO would make them more $£€ so part-way through making the game (which as a single player the modifies Hero Engine would likely have been fine with a multiplayer section like ME3's, IIRC/Hypothesize Right).

 

I dunno, I came expecting Star Wars, and hadn't heard of KOTOR, or BW before I started playing due to bring really far out the gaming loop that wasn't concerned with GameFreak.

[Kalfear]

Instead of thinking of F2P as a comparison to sub, try thinking of it as a chance to test the waters before deciding to buy the product, or not.

 

Testing the waters is playing to level 20 and deciding then

 

Whats being asked for here is NOT a test of the waters

What being asked for is FREE

They want it all free with no possibility of future financial support

 

Sorry but SW:TOR already goes well beyond "testing the waters" with its F2P and Preferred options as they stand now

[Heat-Wave]

What has amazed me, are those so blinkered to see the benefits to everyone if SWTOR changed its so called F2P model. Numbers are falling - the servers are Light 80% of the day. Its been F2P for 2 years, and yes it gave the game a shot in the arm but things are going south again.

 

This isn't an argument that ESO is better, its about how their new B2P is a game changer. A total game changer. Can you really expect someone who is F2P in SWTOR to pay 400cc for a pass to play 4 year old content? If the answer is yes, take a long hard look around - the servers are becoming empty for a reason.

 

Nonsense.... the F2P model is not why the servers are empty, the lack of new content is why they are empty.

 

The F2P model changing won't change that.

[Heat-Wave]

I can see both sides of the argument. No, they shouldn't give the entire game + perks away for free. However, taking away features that were already in the game (quick bars, customization etc) and locking them behind a paywall is a bad strategy. The reason the game continues to do poorly and lose subs over time is that the game is not really worth a sub.

 

True, but giving you quickbars and customization doesn't change that outcome, new content does.

 

So really this entire debate is pointless... the whole idea of F2P restrictions being more or less as a solution to the empty servers is missing the point.

 

New content, faster, is the only solution to empty servers. The F2P debate is a side show of little importance.

[Anaesha]

The issue of this games longevity and how to fix it boils down to one simple fact. I said in another topic that The ONLY way any of this is going to be resolves is if EA gets off their asses and actually put REAL money and man power behind this game.

 

The way it is now it's like trying to run a triathlon with one arm and leg tied.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Anaesha

[Heat-Wave]

Some of the risks that we identified going into launch were becoming worse than we thought... The most worrisome was that people were going through the content a lot faster than we expected. We had expected our playerbase to play through the game and get to the endgame, on average, in about three to four months, maybe five months. It was 170-180 hours of content. But our metrics were showing us that, on average, for the millions of people playing our game, they were going through the game at a rate of 40 hours a week..."[40 hours a week] was the average! We actually had people doing 80 to 100 to 120 hours a week, which I can't even comprehend."

 

Yes, and the Bioware dev who said that is an idiot who doesn't actually understand the MMO market.

 

I could tell you that it is really quite simple, a lot of people would be perfectly happy living in a MMO. The Matrix doesn't have to enslave humanity, millions of people would willingly sign up.

 

It is even more simple than that... plenty of single player games with 100 hours of content are released and beaten in the first weekend. Some people pull all nighters and stay up to play the whole game.

 

Why? I wouldn't do it, it doesn't sound like fun to me, but people do it and Bioware should have been prepared for it.

 

Do not launch a MMO without a solid end game ready at launch, period.

[Heat-Wave]

I subbed a few times with those one time payment blocks, i can't see myself paying monthly for a game, however. If SWTOR never went F2p I would never have played it, similarly I have never played WoW or any other sub only game.

 

Atm on the 7 day sub link thing, spending all my accumulated 135m that has been in escrow since f2p launched, and never subbing again =p

 

Great... the question is, so what?

 

SWTOR's success is not measured in the number of people playing... it is measured in the number of people paying...

 

Who cares if 50 million people play, if none of them want to pay anything?

[Costello]

B2P seems a better business model.

 

1,000,000 purchased SWTOR to start with, that was happy to hand over 60 bucks knowing it would be 15 bucks a month to play. Then the lack of content, unbalanced classes, no end game, limited PvP and no dev responses caused them to re-evaluate if 15 bucks a month was worth it.

 

It BW had offered a one off payment to get to enjoy the story and the game fully for a one off purchase price it would have given a really good impression of the game. Rather than the very nickle and dime approach we have where you don't have enough task bars, you can't hide your helm, you can't mail or trade, you can't raid etc. So you allow people to see what the game is like then give them such a watered down version that they think it sucks. Where as if BW had offered the B2P version good chance people that purchased it would have realised how good at least the level 1 to 50 game was.

 

ESO seems to offer a full game for that purchase price. If I let my subs lapse and log in I wont suddenly lose my task bars, unable to access my credits and have to wear a helm, unable to play with my guild in raids or PvP or GSF. Whats the point of letting people play for free and then making the experience so bad they don't want to.

[Heat-Wave]

Whats the point of letting people play for free and then making the experience so bad they don't want to.

 

To get them to sub?

[Kalfear]

Nonsense.... the F2P model is not why the servers are empty, the lack of new content is why they are empty.

 

The F2P model changing won't change that.

 

Bingo

 

As EA has said themselves (and supplied the info for all to see) F2P players offer up a VERY SMALL amount of financial support to this product.

 

The MASS MAJORITY of Cartel shop sales are done by SUBSCRIBERS, not F2P or Preferred accounts.

 

What this game needs is better design, better development, better support

All with the intention of getting MORE SUBSCRIBERS

 

All F2P really do is use up resources and offer up nothing back in return

[Kalfear]

B2P seems a better business model.

 

1,000,000 purchased SWTOR to start with, that was happy to hand over 60 bucks knowing it would be 15 bucks a month to play. Then the lack of content, unbalanced classes, no end game, limited PvP and no dev responses caused them to re-evaluate if 15 bucks a month was worth it.

 

 

You just said it, they all purchased KNOWING they needed a sub

The sub did not scare them away

And its been proven time and time again the sub didnt chase them away, the game failing to deliver what it advertised and promised chased them away.

 

As for B2P

 

Why on earth would EA change current MORE SUCCESSFUL pricing options to one that over MMORPG history has shown to be unpredictable and far less successful.

 

Some poster will point to Guild Wars 1 and 2 Im sure but if you actually followed the industry you would know Guild Wars 1 and 2, while profitable, never had the income reports that SW:TOR had even last financial year. Never came close to the number.

 

ESO is only going B2P because they failed as a subscriber game.

But make no mistake they choose B2P format so they can put EVERYTHING up for sale and make cash that way.

Pay to Win will be their new motto and still will not bring them anywhere close to SW:TOR last financial earnings (which was lowest since release for SW:TOR)

 

So why would EA change to a prove LESS SUCCESSFUL model of pricing?

 

Your argument or opinion fails to meet any sort of common sense of business sense standards.

 

There might come a time when SW:TOR need to go full on B2P or F2P but that time is a long ways off still. SW:TOR is not in those dire moments that they need to lower themselves to those pricing plans yet.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Kalfear

[JimG]

It's been 2 years now and clearly numbers across all servers are in decline. My guild alone lost over 120 subs this past month and I can't be alone.

You're not talking about statistical evidence at all. You're talking about anecdotal evidence and very limited anecdotal evidence at that. Based on actual monetary data that has come out over the last few years, the game has significant improved its revenue after they went to their F2P hybrid/CM model. The fact that they haven't revised the model after 2.5 years of this speaks volumes to the financial viability of what they were doing. If they were losing money or the revenue started to shrink, then they'd undoubtedly make changes.

[Ghisallo]

Yes, and the Bioware dev who said that is an idiot who doesn't actually understand the MMO market.

 

I could tell you that it is really quite simple, a lot of people would be perfectly happy living in a MMO. The Matrix doesn't have to enslave humanity, millions of people would willingly sign up.

 

It is even more simple than that... plenty of single player games with 100 hours of content are released and beaten in the first weekend. Some people pull all nighters and stay up to play the whole game.

 

Why? I wouldn't do it, it doesn't sound like fun to me, but people do it and Bioware should have been prepared for it.

 

Do not launch a MMO without a solid end game ready at launch, period.

 

You need to read everything IN context. First he was giving a talk to game designers about how they screwed up AND the steps they have taken and are planning on taking to correct said mistakes.

 

The lesson was learned... the main things were, AND he admitted to it, they never launched an MMO had no experience with the genre or with teams that size, had to use an engine they never used that could accommodate and team that size. This combined with bad estimates created a major issue...

 

How many devs do you know that would admit to not only mistakes like this but also talk about internal issue like poor morale and such? Most devs I know would say things like "the pressure of an overly optimistic deadline combined with the launch of a highly anticipated and hyped competeing b2p MMO...blah blah blah"

 

There is an old saying "the first step to fixing a problem is acknowledging it exists." The main thing that made me come back to SWTOR and give it another chance is that unlike just about every other dev I have ever seen, he did not make excuses...he not only said "we screwed up" the guy goes into detail as to how.

[Ghisallo]

You're not talking about statistical evidence at all. You're talking about anecdotal evidence and very limited anecdotal evidence at that. Based on actual monetary data that has come out over the last few years, the game has significant improved its revenue after they went to their F2P hybrid/CM model. The fact that they haven't revised the model after 2.5 years of this speaks volumes to the financial viability of what they were doing. If they were losing money or the revenue started to shrink, then they'd undoubtedly make changes.

 

And tbh I really don't find much credibility in what they say now anywho. They have either down right lied or simply been ignorant on more than a few actually documented facts. Additionally I have found a rather interesting trend.

 

I have lost count of the people who say "my guild lost 100+ subscribers in the last month." Understanding that we who post on forums are a TINY minority of the population.... if we were the extrapolate this game has to have among the highest number of subscribers of any game out there... basically until just recently this game has been a SMASHING success. Yet many of these same posters have been saying A) it is DOOM and B) more than once have spoken of the exodus of subscribers from their guilds.

 

rule of thumb if someone posts anecdotal statements anonymously on the interwebs... give it the level of confidence it deserves.

[SammuelSK]

To get them to sub?

 

Honestly? Having the opposite effect, I've already let my guild know this is my last week as I won't be resubbing and the F2P option is much to restricting to continue with.

[Heat-Wave]

You need to read everything IN context. First he was giving a talk to game designers about how they screwed up AND the steps they have taken and are planning on taking to correct said mistakes.

 

Doesn't matter, no steps would matter after the fact, the ship has sailed.

 

That isn't how large public companies tend to work, EA has written off this game, you won't see those fixes put into place, half the team from launch isn't even here anymore.

 

The lesson was learned... the main things were, AND he admitted to it, they never launched an MMO had no experience with the genre or with teams that size, had to use an engine they never used that could accommodate and team that size. This combined with bad estimates created a major issue...

 

I've never launched a MMO either, and I already know not to make those mistakes.

 

You're defending the indefensible, the fact is, they didn't know what they were doing, it was amateur hour and it shows.

[Devrius]

The F2P system (which lets face it is a, quite epic, trial version) is perfectly harsh as is, the Preferred one though? Outright dumb.

 

Right now there are more and more games that are F2P, truly free to play that carry no real limitations to their F2P players, only bonus to their subscribers.

 

Warframe, Tera, Rift, War Thunder, League of Legends and so many more are all examples of what good commercial models look like, lets face it, it's the name "Star Wars" that keeps the game for dying out under the weight of it's F2P/Preferred system...

 

Even the buy to play games like ESO (though the combat system is crap at best) , Guild Wars 2, The Secret World, CS:GO are better served by their model then SWTOR is by it's.

 

 

The reason is simple: Everyone playing the game can enjoy every facet of it, including the all important end-game.

 

The limitations on gear, lvl cap, cash, OPs, trade, cargo holds, PvP (which were supposed to be removed mind you http://www.swtor.com/blog/developer-update-warzone-arenas) leave new players with 2 choices:

A - choose to become a sub and hope the end game he cant test out is worth his money, while all he has to go on is this is harsh restrictions that are archaic in modern F2P online games.

B - Or find another game.

 

 

I know many apologists will jump to their beloved: "you get what you pay for!"

 

Well no, we don't.

 

The current system hurts us subscribers more then F2P or Preferred players, we are the ones paying to do end-game and PvP but we get crap queue times because they (the vast majority of players) are not allowed or have no reason to participate in it! Why would F2P players use their weekly allowance of WZs when they can't buy or equip the gear it rewards....

 

 

The preferred status should remove all F2P restriction while limiting access to the last expansion owned, this way we would get far more end-game players and less F2P players would leave.

Why? Because getting someone to buy an expansion once a year is a lot easier then getting someone to commit to a monthly subscription. I would say removes most F2P limitations, but a Preferred status upgrade is already a pipe dream.

 

 

 

SWTOR launched, tried and failled to be a subscriber only game and right now it's barely a step up from that, 4 years later and on the eve of a new Star Wars trilogy population should be booming but it's image as a hugely restrictive "F2P" game makes new players weary to even try it out.

 

My guild is dead, mainly because it took all of a minute to find an MMO to replace SWTOR, that was free, with a better physics engine, graphics and didn't treat it's new players base like a " wretched hive of scum and villainy"

[Anaesha]

I wouldn't exactly call Warframe a good example. They are heavily cash shop oriented yes you can get most of the stuff from the CS in game if you're willing to grind your *** off for the components and blueprints but how many people actually take that route when they can just buy it from the CS? Edited April 2, 2015 by Anaesha

[DreadtechSavant]

Well..

the only thing that should change is the preferred status. By this I mean if you buy access to guild bank the you should get access not a restricted access as it is now. At the moment you can buy a extra inventory line for 5k, sounds aright to me, unless you buy one from cartel first , then you can no longer get an extra one for 5k. You should be able to buy 1 inventory line for 5k regardless of weather you have brought one from cartel, well until you have max aloud in game.

 

It small things like this that should be changed long before they look at f2p because regardless of what other games do or don't do f2p still have it good. how many playstaion or xbox games do you get for free? Yes a sub is ongoing ware the others are a one off fee. that's still the players choice.

 

Yes preferred status should be looked at, f2p No. I don't think I personally agree with any of the things you have mentioned. At the end of the day if f2p became what you wanted it to be, well I would just end my sub and go f2p. as would a lot of others (not all before someone say "well I sub to support the game") less subs would mean no game at all long term. Well I say long term when in-fact it would most likely be short term.

Edited April 2, 2015 by DreadtechSavant

[Anaesha]

Well..

the only thing that should change is the preferred status. By this I mean if you buy access to guild bank the you should get access not a restricted access as it is now. At the moment you can buy a extra inventory line for 5k, sounds aright to me, unless you buy one from cartel first , then you can no longer get an extra one for 5k. You should be able to buy 1 inventory line for 5k regardless of weather you have brought one from cartel, well until you have max aloud in game.

 

It small things like this that should be changed long before they look at f2p because regardless of what other games do or don't do f2p still have it good. how many playstaion or xbox games do you get for free? Yes a sub is ongoing ware the others are a one off fee. that's still the players choice.

 

Yes preferred status should be looked at, f2p No. I don't think I personally agree with any of the things you have mentioned.

 

The only problem with that is all it takes to get pref status is to spend five freaking dollars. I don't see why a pref should get any more then they already get. Other then a slight raise in cred cap I can't see any justification for removing any of the other restrictions from prefs.

[Heat-Wave]

Right now there are more and more games that are F2P, truly free to play that carry no real limitations to their F2P players, only bonus to their subscribers.

 

And none of them have lightsabers in them... and that is why this game is still here...

 

The reason is simple: Everyone playing the game can enjoy every facet of it, including the all important end-game.

 

If you drop the limits that exist, I would expect a lot of subs to be canceled.

 

Why pay a sub if the game can be played without it.

 

Then the game really won't be here.

 

Personally I think the game would be better off INCREASING the F2P limits, not relaxing them. Get more people to sub.

[DreadtechSavant]

The only problem with that is all it takes to get pref status is to spend five freaking dollars. I don't see why a pref should get any more then they already get. Other then a slight raise in cred cap I can't see any justification for removing any of the other restrictions from prefs.

 

5 dollars. Want to know what you can buy with 5 freaking dollars because to get pref staus you have to buy something from cartel, complementary cc from security keys does not count towards a purchases. or are your freaking dollars different to standard dollars!

 

Wrong. ok yes they get Pef status, they still have to buy the unlocks. OK they can buy it off the GNT. Boiware has still made the sale as the player selling unlock has had to buy it. regardless its unfair if you have paid for the unlock by whatever means and the don't get the access you have paid for.

 

EDIT

Heat-Wave I agree 100% with you. I know I would end my sub.

Edited April 2, 2015 by DreadtechSavant