How to fix PvP: "I win" buttons and mobility

[qwopicus]

I have been thinking about ways to change the several "I win" buttons that exist in the current game in PvP. I think that they cheapen so many fights, especially in regs (where the majority of PvP currently is). Examples:

 

Enraged Defense: Yes, you can simply not attack them. But what if you have DoTs on them? Free H2F. In arenas this gives juggs a permanent double health bar.

 

Eletro-net: Mercs have weak defensives, I get it. But this is a free kill. Even if whitebarred, you have to blow your stunbreak on it to have a chance at surviving, without a dedicated healer.

 

Phase Walk: Combat stealth has counters, and you have to also either use a one minute CD purge or take a heroic talent (for both ops and sins) to not be immediately popped out of stealth. This doesn't: unless you're extremely low and heavily DoTed it means you win. On a less than 1 minute CD, with no counterplay. Even more for hatred, who can heal up from DoTs without breaking combat.

 

Force Barrier: In and of itself, this isn't OP. It does become OP with the corrupted barrier utility (that most sorcs I know take). Even worse than ED in some ways, because it cannot be countered at all. You fight all sorcs twice in arenas.

 

Secondly, mobility. What to the top 3 classes all have in common? An easy rootbreak. 15-20secs for sins and sorcs, and majority uptime on PTs. This is a major contributor to their current status, because no other class can break movement impairing effects as quickly.

 

Solutions:

 

ED: Change it to "direct damage" triggering the charges (and put it on a 10sec duration...), and remove the minute damage from stuns. This gives them their free heal from teams that don't know how to track buffs, but allow skilled teams and players to negate it.

 

Electro-net: Stop it from graying out abilities. If your enemy uses force speed/troll roll/etc. the DoT should scale up to do very heavy damage. This allows you to choose from eating the net, or escaping with some health. If you force that Sorc to use force barrier early, that's a win. More counterplay.

 

Phase Walk: I know this ability is important to avoid boss mechanics in PvE, so the cooldown won't be changed. However, adding a large trail animation between the teleport location and where you triggered it, and not letting you port through walls, would fix it in PvP. It becomes an anti-focus skill and not an auto win.

 

Force Barrier: Increase the healing from static barrier and make you take -25-50% healing during the duration of force barrier. Again, it becomes an anti-focus skill to let healers get you back up and not an auto-win.

 

As for mobility, this is a more pervasive issue. Ideally, the number of snares and roots in the game are reduced so they're situational and not a fact of life. Unfortunately, the recent changes has made me feel that's unlikely (giving lethality a spammable AoE root that lasts 24 seconds, that nobody asked for....). Barring that:

 

Force speed (w/ emersion) and hydraulic overrides:

 

Solution 1: Put the relevant utilities in the classes' respective tank trees. This would let the tanks have the much needed mobility in PvE. However, with all the anti-melee mechanics (though I hesitate to call PT melee) I think a better solution is in order.

 

Solution 2:

Emersion: Breaks all movement impairing effects upon activation, but doesn't provide immunity. If someone has fast reflexes they can snare you, but your massive movement speed buff will let you get some distance. Moving avoidance utility to masterful would also help.

HO: Breaks all movement impairing effects upon activation, and gives several charges of "Override". Whenever your movement would normally be impaired, a charge is consumed. This means that a whitebarred PT can't have a free score in huttball. Again, shuffling a few utilities around to force harder choices would be helpful.

 

What do you all think?

Edited March 26, 2015 by qwopicus

[Zoom_VI]

Enraged Defense: Yes, you can simply not attack them. But what if you have DoTs on them? Free H2F. In arenas this gives juggs a permanent double health bar.

Enraged defense isn't all that overpowered on its own. What makes it strong is that its on a class that already has a amazing defensive arsenal.

 

Eletro-net: Mercs have weak defensives, I get it. But this is a free kill. Even if whitebarred, you have to blow your stunbreak on it to have a chance at surviving, without a dedicated healer.

No just no. You can pop a defensive cooldown and be fine. Seriously timing is everything with net, its no where near a "I win" button. It's a "I win with superior team coordination if and only if your team can't peel"

 

Phase Walk: Combat stealth has counters, and you have to also either use a one minute CD purge or take a heroic talent (for both ops and sins) to not be immediately popped out of stealth. This doesn't: unless you're extremely low and heavily DoTed it means you win. On a less than 1 minute CD, with no counterplay. Even more for hatred, who can heal up from DoTs without breaking combat.

The 2 seconds of shroud after stealthing out needs to go and be replaced with just a dot purge. The amount of ******** that you can pull with those two seconds of shroud is insipid not to mention that the devs probably didn't intended it.

 

Force Barrier: In and of itself, this isn't OP. It does become OP with the corrupted barrier utility (that most sorcs I know take). Even worse than ED in some ways, because it cannot be countered at all. You fight all sorcs twice in arenas.

Force Barrier in and of itself is totally OP. For no other reason that the fact it allows the sorc to be a completely ******* and live, because "lol invincibility CD useable while stunned." Seriously, I'm sick and tired of sorcs overextending to hell and back and living because of that ****.

 

Secondly, mobility. What to the top 3 classes all have in common? An easy rootbreak. 15-20secs for sins and sorcs, and majority uptime on PTs. This is a major contributor to their current status, because no other class can break movement impairing effects as quickly.

This has more to do with the crazy amount of roots and snares in the meta than it is to do with the root break itself. Roots should be removed from all rotational abilities. Especially things like Chain lightning's AoE root+snare.

 

 

 

Electro-net: Stop it from graying out abilities. If your enemy uses force speed/troll roll/etc. the DoT should scale up to do very heavy damage. This allows you to choose from eating the net, or escaping with some health. If you force that Sorc to use force barrier early, that's a win. More counterplay.

The whole damn point of Enet is that is "grays out abilities" In competitive PvP the only reason you even use the damn thing is because of the hinder effect. Taking that away would eliminate the only reason you would ever take a merc into teams over any other class.

 

 

 

Force Barrier: Increase the healing from static barrier and make you take +25-50% healing during the duration of force barrier. Again, it becomes an anti-focus skill to let healers get you back up and not an auto-win.

uhhh

errr

You do realize this suggestion would be a massive buff to barrier in competitive PvP?

[Darth__Reaver]

Enet for MERCS is fine. We really don't have any other special moves the fact you can break it and cleanse it now really hurts us.

[Virus_Bot]

you want to nerf electro net?

[qwopicus]

ED is OP. Do you object to my change for some reason? Because if you think it's alright in the current state, you basically approve of 200% health bars for juggs in arenas.

 

You must play only classes with excellent DCDs if you think eletro-net can be eaten like this. Or you don't play vs. good teams. Operatives, mercs, sorcs, none of them can "eat" the net because they don't have good DCDs. If you are focused and you have to use your stunbreak net is a free kill, no discussion.

 

I don't really see an issue with your suggestion to shroud of madness, though it's important to allow sin tanks to better survive mechanics.

 

Removing Force barrier's use while stunned is also a good change, so you have to use it proactively. That said, sorcs need an anti-focus ability, or they become mercs.

 

Regarding the excess of snares and roots: I guess you didn't read my entire post, considering I said that exact thing.

 

You take a merc because they do great damage and healing, and if/when they get an actual anti-focus skill they'll be highly valued. Preventing an opponent from using his abilities is the opposite of competitive play.

 

As for the force barrier change: I was spitballing, it could either stay or leave.

 

To the electro-net naysayers: Mercs are weak and net is their main PvP ability, but this is assuming that they get the anti-focus skill they so sorely need.

Edited March 26, 2015 by qwopicus

[JackNader]

Yeh, you can tell who mains a merc in this thread.

[Master-Nala]

I could actually see the removal of Corrupted Barrier or moving that back to being healer only. While people whine and moan about Dark Heal, it's really that talent that gives Sorcs the ability to H2F so easily.

 

But you can have my Egress/Emersion when they take Hydraulic Overrides and every other rootbreak out of the game. Force Speed is near useless in PvP without that talent. Those powers provide counters to all the rooting powers in the game. You expect Sorcs to just eat Ravage just cause? To be able to be stopped by leap as soon as they force speed away. Umm no.

 

I remember what that was like and I remember that was the reason they made the talent available to all specs in the first place. Leave it alone.

[qwopicus]

I could actually see the removal of Corrupted Barrier or moving that back to being healer only. While people whine and moan about Dark Heal, it's really that talent that gives Sorcs the ability to H2F so easily.

 

But you can have my Egress/Emersion when they take Hydraulic Overrides and every other rootbreak out of the game. Force Speed is near useless in PvP without that talent. Those powers provide counters to all the rooting powers in the game. You expect Sorcs to just eat Ravage just cause? To be able to be stopped by leap as soon as they force speed away. Umm no.

 

Guess you didn't actually read the post. I suggested a full rework of corrupted barrier, and a change to emersion that would allow you to survive that exact situation while balancing it.

 

Forum registrations should have a literacy test.

Edited March 26, 2015 by qwopicus

[Master-Nala]

Guess you didn't actually read the post. I suggested a full rework of corrupted barrier, and a change to emersion that would allow you to survive that exact situation while balancing it.

 

Forum registrations should have a literacy test.

 

Sigh... Perhaps you should learn to read your own post. Or simply not take it so personally when someone disagrees with you.

 

Granting a rootbreak without immunity leaves you with the situation where you break the root, and a leaper will leap to you and root you the second you get out of range. You may or may not understand that directly responds to your suggestion to make it a rootbreak without the immunity. We went over these arguments in the 2.0 era. Maybe you were there, maybe not. But Egress/Emersion is the way it is for very good reasons that have history and experience to back them up.

 

As for Corrupted Barrier, my comment stands on its own, I wasn't reacting to anything other than your mention of it.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Master-Nala

[Jaddis]

Force Barrier: Increase the healing from static barrier and make you take +25-50% healing during the duration of force barrier. Again, it becomes an anti-focus skill to let healers get you back up and not an auto-win.

 

This made my morning. PLEASE let sorcs be buffed this way. It would be the BEST thing ever and not at all game breaking.

[Master-Nala]

This made my morning. PLEASE let sorcs be buffed this way. It would be the BEST thing ever and not at all game breaking.

 

I think he probably meant to say reduce healing on the Sorc to 25%-50%, because otherwise, yeah it's a massive insane buff.

[zZeroAgent]

The only way I could agree that they should lower the healing from Force Barrier is if they made Phase Walk an inquisitor ability. I understand it can be a little OP in arenas with CDs being reset, but corrupted barrier is a necessity for their viability.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Stealth = Barrier. Why ? Because both remove the player who uses it from combat = takling no damage.

[qwopicus]

I think he probably meant to say reduce healing on the Sorc to 25%-50%, because otherwise, yeah it's a massive insane buff.

 

Yes, I did. Dumb typo on my part, my bad.

 

As for emersion, do you know of a better way to give them mobility while not making them so OP at kiting like they are now? I'm open to suggestions.

 

And putting combat stealth in the same boat as barrier is wrong for a few reasons. Combat stealth doesn't let you H2F in seconds, even with Seethe+assassin's shelter. It requires a purge to be used beforehand (1 min CD) I personally think shroud of madness should be made into only a purge so that sins can be popped out if they're slow or predictable. As far as I can remember, every class but ops have on demand ground targeted or PBAoEs. Stealth also can't be used while stunned, and it doesn't give you a massive shield afterwards.

Edited March 26, 2015 by qwopicus

[RangKer]

So much baited content in this thread one could swear they are watching Fox News. The OP is being totally non Bias at all.

 

Yeh, you can tell who mains a merc in this thread.

Also this ^

[qwopicus]

So much baited content in this thread one could swear they are watching Fox News. The OP is being totally non Bias at all.

 

Not sure if sarcastic... I've been open to suggestions and many people haven't even read the OP.

[swredrage]

Enraged defense isn't all that overpowered on its own. What makes it strong is that its on a class that already has a amazing defensive arsenal.

pretty much, alittle tweaking and it is in a good place

 

just no. You can pop a defensive cooldown and be fine. Seriously timing is everything with net, its no where near a "I win" button. It's a "I win with superior team coordination if and only if your team can't peel"

Net is about the only thing commando/merc has going for it... it isn't bad but maybe needs tweaked a bit, but seems to be in a good place.

 

The 2 seconds of shroud after stealthing out needs to go and be replaced with just a dot purge. The amount of ******** that you can pull with those two seconds of shroud is insipid not to mention that the devs probably didn't intended it.

I dont' mind phase walk, as long as it doesn't purge dots. maybe a second or two immunity from damage or something. If they can purge, they should allow other classes to purge again.

 

Force Barrier in and of itself is totally OP. For no other reason that the fact it allows the sorc to be a completely ******* and live, because "lol invincibility CD useable while stunned." Seriously, I'm sick and tired of sorcs overextending to hell and back and living because of that ****.

Force barrier gets a lot of crap it doesn't deserve. by itself it isn't all that good, okay but not good. with the utility point in healing it is okay. IF (thats a big if) you have a healer near by then it is pretty darn good, but not what i would call OP. The healing it provides with the utility is about one crit from a sniper.

 

You have to remember hitting force barrier makes the Sorc useless for the duration of the channel. No more casting by that sorc until the channel is broken. The only time it is fairly OP is at the end of a ranked match you can bubble the overtime poison damage

 

Unlike other 'oh crap' buttons.. this one makes you useless.

 

force barriers description should be something like, "here wear these safety goggles while i put a nail through your foot."

 

 

 

This has more to do with the crazy amount of roots and snares in the meta than it is to do with the root break itself. Roots should be removed from all rotational abilities. Especially things like Chain lightning's AoE root+snare.

chain lightning doesn't have a snare. you may mean force storm? if so, it has been removed... but in general no. ranged only defense against melee is staying out of melee range long enough to end the battle. the only chance melee has to get a ranged is to root snare them long enough to end the battle. sure maybe tweak them a bit, but not remove them completely.

 

 

The whole damn point of Enet is that is "grays out abilities" In competitive PvP the only reason you even use the damn thing is because of the hinder effect. Taking that away would eliminate the only reason you would ever take a merc into teams over any other class.

agreed, again electro net is about the only thing merc/commando has going for it in pvp.

Edited March 26, 2015 by swredrage
i too put down the wrong ability.. ment force storm.. not lightning.

[RangKer]

Not sure if sarcastic... I've been open to suggestions and many people haven't even read the OP.

Many people did, many people expressed their differences; you took those differences in opinions as personal attacks against you, and now the rest are just not going to play dance around the bush game.

 

The Original Post clearly reads as "Nerf Every Class! Except don't nerf the class I play as much as all the others cause I play fotm and they should be slight more OP. Fair and Balance!"

Edited March 26, 2015 by RangKer

[Baddieologist]

wow... just wow... oh yeah... and no.... no... nooooo.... i do not like these ideas.

[qwopicus]

The Original Post clearly reads as "Nerf Every Class! Except don't nerf Mercs as much as all the others cause I play a Merc and they should be slight more OP. Fair and Balance!"

 

Lol, awfully dramatic there kid. Quote the part where I take things as personal attacks so I can learn my lesson. Maybe there were so many mercs whining beneath it that your vision was clouded. I play operative and sin tank, two classes most affected by electro net. ONCE MORE: The nerf to electro-net assumes that mercs get a much needed anti-focus ability.

 

I still can't see how people justify the current ED though. Triggered by DoTs means it is an unavoidable double health bar. Is that what you think is balanced?

 

@swredrage He is referring to the lightning strike replacement, which has a 30% snare on it. I agree that this is bad, at least combined with the 2 free instant ones from force speed.

Edited March 26, 2015 by qwopicus

[Master-Nala]

As for emersion, do you know of a better way to give them mobility while not making them so OP at kiting like they are now? I'm open to suggestions.

 

Well, first I don't think it's OP. Roots and Root-breaks are a cat and mouse game in PvP. There are a LOT of roots, but there are some really potent root breaks as well.

 

Inquisitors/Consulars can have a 15/20 CD rootbreak +2 seconds of immunity. That's 18 seconds (12 GCDs) where you can still root the player. Now Shadow/Assassins have some added defenses in the form of Resilience/Shroud, but let's ignore that for a seconds as they are usually not trying to kite anyone.

 

The only way to change this without greatly harming survivability is to remove a fair number of the melee roots, which on balance might create a more boring game.

[qwopicus]

Well, first I don't think it's OP. Roots and Root-breaks are a cat and mouse game in PvP. There are a LOT of roots, but there are some really potent root breaks as well.

 

Inquisitors/Consulars can have a 15/20 CD rootbreak +2 seconds of immunity. That's 18 seconds (12 GCDs) where you can still root the player. Now Shadow/Assassins have some added defenses in the form of Resilience/Shroud, but let's ignore that for a seconds as they are usually not trying to kite anyone.

 

The only way to change this without greatly harming survivability is to remove a fair number of the melee roots, which on balance might create a more boring game.

 

Fair assessment. It is a combination of things like electric bindings, backlash, and instant LB from force speed.

[Master-Nala]

Fair assessment. It is a combination of things like electric bindings, backlash, and instant LB from force speed.

 

On that point, I have been quite surprised that more people haven't made a stink about making Electric Bindings a class wide ability (ie giving it to Assassins/other Sorc specs). I'm probably the biggest Sorc booster on the PvP forums and I think that was a little silly.

[swredrage]

@swredrage He is referring to the lightning strike replacement, which has a 30% snare on it. I agree that this is bad, at least combined with the 2 free instant ones from force speed.

 

no i think he ment storm because of the AOE. (edited my post cause i also referred to the wrong ability d'oh)

 

Lightning Bolt's Snare is fine as long as it doesn't stack. Though adding a 5-10 second internal cool down on it may be useful.

 

All the snare/root issues would be "fixed" if they added snares/root/stuns/etc to the resolve bar.

[Zoom_VI]

chain lightning doesn't have a snare. you may mean force storm?

 

Lightning Swarm

Level Granted: 32

Passive

Increases the maximum range of your force attacks by 5 meters. Additionally, Chain Lightning immobilizes all affected targets for 0.5 seconds and slows all affected targets by 50% for 6 seconds.

 

So basically sorcs have a 6 second CD 16 meter diameter AoE snare that slows for 50%, and not only that buts its a standard rotational ability to boot.

 

Seriously bioware AoE snares and roots are bad enough, but rotation ones are the worst. It should cost the sorcs something to exert that level of control.