Need Rolls

[Offendyou]

So, this on going issue of no one grasping the concept of when to need and when to greed. I just feel like this is the only MMO that's still out that hasn't addressed this issue. I constantly lose gear to the most useless person in my group. It's usually the one that's AFK half the time, not listening to anything anyone says, and then he need rolls gear that has no stat benefits for himself. I mean, by now Bioware has to be aware of this issue. Yet, still every group I get into I have this same issue.

[FerkWork]

So, this on going issue of no one grasping the concept of when to need and when to greed. I just feel like this is the only MMO that's still out that hasn't addressed this issue. I constantly lose gear to the most useless person in my group. It's usually the one that's AFK half the time, not listening to anything anyone says, and then he need rolls gear that has no stat benefits for himself. I mean, by now Bioware has to be aware of this issue. Yet, still every group I get into I have this same issue.

 

Problem 1: People are needing on things they don't need

 

Solutions: Set some ground rules beforehand,: Call them out some maybe new others trolls, Put people who do that on ignore so you don't queue with them,run with people you trust/guildies, don't piss off others and make them roll need to spite you (I do this liberally either me or if you insult my friends I'm running with or guildies)

 

Problem 2: I'm not winning roles because I put more work in it

 

Solution: Do the above. Otherwise no solution, who has the right to decide whether Sorc A or Sorc B gets the gloves if they both need it? This cannot be fixed.

 

Other than there is no real issue to fix. Establish rules yourself beforehand. Others might have different rules and may allow needing for comps or Legacy. Any change by BW would be like a hammer and destroy the fine system of sending gear to alts if your group is allowing it. Stand up for yourself, no need to get BW to do it for you.

Edited March 22, 2015 by FerkWork

[AlrikFassbauer]

I met one Newbie who firmlxy believed he did it right - because of the following :

 

- The buttons DO NOT contain tooltips like "need" or "greed"

- ONLY the "need" button shows REAL DICE - so he was thinking he was actually rolling for loot in all fairness and that everyone was treated equal by this roll.

- He didn't quite understand the "Credits" symbol -> consequently didn't quite understand this button, too.

- He didn't know (if I remember correctly), that there was a "pass" button. He didn't realize that the tiny cross actually "pass". He believed, if I recall this correctly, that it merely meant "close window".

 

That only ONE button depicts real dice is imho the main culprit of not understanding what happens. Bioware should REALLY have chose an other, much better symbol indicating "need",

because dice = "gamble". Nothing that that, anywhere in the world.

That dice = need is something you can exclusively see in SWTOR, as far as I know.

 

This dice symbol really guides Newbies into an completely wrong direction, imho.

[Satedbuffalo]

I met one Newbie who firmlxy believed he did it right - because of the following :

 

- The buttons DO NOT contain tooltips like "need" or "greed"

- ONLY the "need" button shows REAL DICE - so he was thinking he was actually rolling for loot in all fairness and that everyone was treated equal by this roll.

- He didn't quite understand the "Credits" symbol -> consequently didn't quite understand this button, too.

- He didn't know (if I remember correctly), that there was a "pass" button. He didn't realize that the tiny cross actually "pass". He believed, if I recall this correctly, that it merely meant "close window".

 

That only ONE button depicts real dice is imho the main culprit of not understanding what happens. Bioware should REALLY have chose an other, much better symbol indicating "need",

because dice = "gamble". Nothing that that, anywhere in the world.

That dice = need is something you can exclusively see in SWTOR, as far as I know.

 

This dice symbol really guides Newbies into an completely wrong direction, imho.

 

I made this mistake when the game first came out. I felt really dumb.

[power-alex]

I had 0 idea as well on how to roll. And coming from KOTOR I thought as a melee jedi (sentinel) I needed to have strength and willpower, so I needed on willpower piece in Esseless flashpoint. Consular in a group rage quit the group, everyone else followed. It made me feel real bad and upset me so much that I unsubbed for 2 years. So yeah, I agree, some mandatory tutorial on gearing and rolls would be nice.

 

But on the other hand if you're leveling your 21nd toon it shouldn't matter. I just roll greed on everything without even looking. I can get gear from my other toons (craft or buy with basic comms).

 

As far as rolls in operations go, this isn't the issue. Loot rules are usually announced at the beginning and enforced throughout. If you break them you are kicked and put on ignore list, end of story.

Edited March 23, 2015 by power-alex

[Shwarzchild]

There are a lot of people who just have different ideas of the whole need greed system. I have no problem if I'm a group finder / pug group needing on gear that will ultimately go to an Alt. Sure that's "against the unwritten rules", but you know what? It gets me to pay attention to my alt, and i'm sorry but I'm not running content strictly for another's benefit. Sometimes...it's for me, and my benefit. If I'm in a group of friends / guild run I'll pass on stuff I know other people can use, and only need on stuff that my main needs. If we're in older content I'll ask if I can need for alts. But, group finder / pugs. Nah. Sorry community. I'll be that guy. I have no problem with people asking me why I needed on something. I'll tell em that I'm gearing up an alt. Which they can either hate or accept.

[DanNV]

There are a lot of people who just have different ideas of the whole need greed system. I have no problem if I'm a group finder / pug group needing on gear that will ultimately go to an Alt. Sure that's "against the unwritten rules", but you know what? It gets me to pay attention to my alt, and i'm sorry but I'm not running content strictly for another's benefit. Sometimes...it's for me, and my benefit. If I'm in a group of friends / guild run I'll pass on stuff I know other people can use, and only need on stuff that my main needs. If we're in older content I'll ask if I can need for alts. But, group finder / pugs. Nah. Sorry community. I'll be that guy. I have no problem with people asking me why I needed on something. I'll tell em that I'm gearing up an alt. Which they can either hate or accept.

 

So, you're the guy I vote kick and put on ignore. And that's what anyone should do with people who need on things they don't need unless they ask first.

[josephinec]

I didn't understand the concept at first, but now I do and feel like an idiot for not getting it sooner.

 

That being said, I don't "need" on stuff my companions could use but I will "greed" it.

[straseed]

So, you're the guy I vote kick and put on ignore. And that's what anyone should do with people who need on things they don't need unless they ask first.

 

You're the guy who gets kicked from ops and guilds for being a qqer. If it is gear nobody obviously needs, it is and is routinely treated as fair game.

[FerkWork]

You're the guy who gets kicked from ops and guilds for being a qqer. If it is gear nobody obviously needs, it is and is routinely treated as fair game.

 

This. If no rules are established fair game. Don't QQ afterwords or make after the fact rules. When I run a pug run its one set bonus piece per person, Everything else free for all.

[Torvai]

So, you're the guy I vote kick and put on ignore. And that's what anyone should do with people who need on things they don't need unless they ask first.

 

Because he has another definition of "need"? He needs it. For his alt. Would you rather have someone on his well geared main in a pug run needing one or two pieces for his undergeared alt, or the same person on his undergeared alt in the same run, to gear his alt up? The latter doesn't make sense really, does it? Because with lesser gear you have less chance of succeeding. So wheres the problem?

 

The ONLY rule in this game for need/greed/pass in this game is "You can click whatever you feel like".

When to click what is a definition, and while many people have the same definition of need=for my actual character and greed=I don't bother if I get it or not and pass= I don't need/want it at all, it doesn't have to be like this for everyone. It's not a written law or something.

 

There's only one save solution to that: Announce beforehand, what loot rules you'd like to be followed. If everyone is okay with it, fine, got for it. If someone has a problem with it, drop the group.

[Katahn]

Just because you can be a complete jerk and roll need for any reason, or no reason at all, it doesn't mean you should.

 

Even if I were willing to accept the thesis that it is just fine to roll need for companions (I don't, GTN greens work wonders for them, seriously)...

 

Even if I were willing to accept the thesis that it is just fine to roll need for an alt (I don't, run with them to get their gear, you did it once you can do it again)....

 

You still have people who mistakenly roll need because they really do think they need it. Marauders rolling need on willpower because in a prior BW game that was the right thing to do. In this game it isn't, it hurts their character and development. They are doing themselves a disservice and if there was an inquisitor in the group they aren't just hurting themselves they're also denying a fellow player an upgrade. Lose-lose.

 

This really needs to be addressed.

[Shwarzchild]

So, you're the guy I vote kick and put on ignore. And that's what anyone should do with people who need on things they don't need unless they ask first.

 

If you decided to vote kick / ignore me that'd be fine. Your choice, and I'm generally not one to try to argue with people over something that they want to do. What you'd be doing is vote kicking and ignoring someone who goes out of their way to help when someone has an issue with something mechanically/ organizes pug raids for people/ doesn't kick people for gear. So I'm not a jerk of a player, but I also realize that the gear grind isn't something I enjoy although I do love operations. I try to be accommodating to people and if lets say you made a stink about it I'd inspect your gear, and if you actually needed it there would be a possibility of me giving it to you if your attitude isn't the whole temper tantrum thing. Overall why would I need on gear for an alt? I value being able to be flexible for the guild and for friends who want to raid. Having a geared tank, healer, and dps means I can do the johnny on the spot role. There's even a chance I'm needing so my buddy has a better chance at getting it over you, because you're a random person to me and not my friend or guild-mate. I know that sounds cold, but hey it's the truth. I certainly wouldn't be asking you permission to try to help my buddy get gear.

 

To be honest. I think you need to realize that we don't need to strictly be defining things under one single rigid system. And, if you're the type to throw a temper tantrum than I'd prefer you put me on ignore.

 

Edit: If rules are instituted then follow them definitely. If they are not, then really it's open season. I'll give you two examples of what I would do. First instance I was running a pug Dread Palace hardmode run (we cleared it in 6 hours...yeah...it was rough). I ended up getting something that I ultimately was going to send over to my Alt. Guy whispered me, and said hey do you mind trading those to me I could use them on this toon (my main). I said sure and gave em up no questions asked. Second scenario I was in a group findered group for Legacy of the Rakata. Guy loses out on some mk2 gear he could have really used (he was in the Rishi blues gear mostly with maybe 2 186 yavin pieces). Guy wins the roll after needing on whatever it was, and dude goes ape crazy. Refuses to finish the flashpoint. Goes off all crazy like on the guy. I say nothing, and the guy who won it kept it. Why? Because that's not the way to get what you want if you end up losing out on something.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Shwarzchild

[Frenesi]

To be honest. I think you need to realize that we don't need to strictly be defining things under one single rigid system. And, if you're the type to throw a temper tantrum than I'd prefer you put me on ignore.

 

There are rules and they are expected to be followed. If you want to act differently - say so at the start and get group's permission. Becouse, you know, you are not the only person playing the game. If you needed gear for an alt over somebody who can use it right now - it's dickery in purest form.

[Shwarzchild]

There are rules and they are expected to be followed. If you want to act differently - say so at the start and get group's permission. Becouse, you know, you are not the only person playing the game. If you needed gear for an alt over somebody who can use it right now - it's dickery in purest form.

 

I think you're going a bit overboard. I'm not one to say screw everyone I'm needing on this this this this, and then also this. Plus, generally I'm not looking at your gear. I have my gear in mind, and my alts gear in mind. If you lost out to me in a need vs need roll, and then said hey man you're an operative, that's Aim gear. Do you mind trading that to me instead of pushing it to your alt? I'd absolutely give it to you. If you threw a gigantic hissy fit like some people do, then no I wouldn't give it to you.

[psandak]

So, you're the guy I vote kick and put on ignore. And that's what anyone should do with people who need on things they don't need unless they ask first.

 

emphasis is mine. ASK FIRST. That's allit takes.

 

If there is ANY question that someone MIGHT get upset by you needing on something...ASK the group. I guarantee, 95% of the time, the group will say, "go for it." But it's the 5% you should be concerned with.

[mikebevo]

I just feel like this is the only MMO that's still out that hasn't addressed this issue

Why should bioware address something that has a easy solution? Especially when the solution could limit others enjoyment of the game. Most weeks I run two to three operations. I never lose out of gear, I have been involved in raids when the only goal of all 8 or 16 people was to get my character gear. I have been involved in raids when the entire goal was just a willpower hilt for one on my alts. I have had alts with full set bonus and just about BiS gear without ever doing a operation on that toon. Run with a guild or friends. 99.9% of the time I heal. I pass on gear until DPS and Tanks are geared. Then we gear healers. Then we run alts and gear them. I still usually end of healing, but the group still allows me to gear my alt dps, just in case I get a chase to run them when we have too many healers. I do not want BioWare making a system that restricts how gear is distributed. That should be a group decision.

 

When I run PUG content, well I don't expect gear. Other than a few matts I pretty much pass on everything. Mainly because I only pug SM Ops or HMFPs and I don't need that gear anyways. Even if I do, it is just too big a hassle for me to deal with. I see someone needing everything. I will need too and trade it to the others for free should I win.

Edited March 24, 2015 by mikebevo

[Shwarzchild]

There are rules and they are expected to be followed. If you want to act differently - say so at the start and get group's permission. Becouse, you know, you are not the only person playing the game. If you needed gear for an alt over somebody who can use it right now - it's dickery in purest form.

 

There are EXPECTATIONS that people think should be followed. They are not rules. And, I'm not advocating stealthily grabbing gear all the time. I ask in raids, as I'm sure everyone does or 99 percent do. But, in a flashpoint I have no real issue with people needing on gear that they'll ultimately pull mods out of to min max their 192 sets, or send to alts. No issue at all. I think this highlights that people play the game differently than you do, and that you need to be accepting of the possibility that people don't play by your expectations. And, that should be fine. If someone is abiding by a different set of boundaries than you are, and they cross just know that you can respectfully communicate and most likely get what you want out of the deal.

 

It's really not dickery as you say is it. I agree that it woud be that if I needed something strictly to vender it for cash. But, all it means is that I'm at a different point in the game than you. Which is what you get when you do a group finder type thing. It can be dickery of you to limit me as well. You aren't entitled to gear. You want gear, just as any of us do. But, never are you entitled to it. You get the chance to throw your name into the ring and roll, but you aren't entitled to win it. At least that's my attitude generally on every role for gear in this game from set pieces to whatever mainly because I don't assume what other people are thinking, especially if they're randoms. And, quite frankly, it isn't my place to tell them what to do.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Shwarzchild

[FerkWork]

Just because you can be a complete jerk and roll need for any reason, or no reason at all, it doesn't mean you should.

 

Even if I were willing to accept the thesis that it is just fine to roll need for companions (I don't, GTN greens work wonders for them, seriously)...

 

Even if I were willing to accept the thesis that it is just fine to roll need for an alt (I don't, run with them to get their gear, you did it once you can do it again)....

 

You still have people who mistakenly roll need because they really do think they need it. Marauders rolling need on willpower because in a prior BW game that was the right thing to do. In this game it isn't, it hurts their character and development. They are doing themselves a disservice and if there was an inquisitor in the group they aren't just hurting themselves they're also denying a fellow player an upgrade. Lose-lose.

 

This really needs to be addressed.

 

While it is true, having artificial barriers wouldn't solve this. Those maras will still buy the wrong gear instead of rolling for it. This is an issue that can be solved by having the mainstat and recommended secondary stats listed on the Disicipline. Right now if they are unaware just ask them and tell them that by equipping it is a downgrade for them. Most will then wisely do that.

 

I believe we are also talking about to different things OP's and FP's.

In FP's particularly leveling through a GF with no real leader, it's usually inferred to roll for your class and do what psandek in asking.

In OP's with token pieces and min maxing it should be on the burden of the OP leader to put roles down.

It does get complicated in that enhancements don't contain main stats so some might just want the enhancements out of it.

 

Asking is nice but it's still on those running the show to lay down rules. In FP's with ransoms just ask.

[FerkWork]

There are rules and they are expected to be followed. If you want to act differently - say so at the start and get group's permission. Becouse, you know, you are not the only person playing the game. If you needed gear for an alt over somebody who can use it right now - it's dickery in purest form.

 

 

Natural state is free for all, the burden is on the raid leader to put those rules in place. If no rules are in play there is no higher natural laws to appeal to.

[KTap]

Because he has another definition of "need"? He needs it. For his alt. Would you rather have someone on his well geared main in a pug run needing one or two pieces for his undergeared alt, or the same person on his undergeared alt in the same run, to gear his alt up? The latter doesn't make sense really, does it? Because with lesser gear you have less chance of succeeding. So wheres the problem?

 

So much this. I have gotten into a few arguments over this exact thing and the other people didn't seem to get it... they wanted me to get on the severely undergeared alt instead of my bis main

[FerkWork]

So much this. I have gotten into a few arguments over this exact thing and the other people didn't seem to get it... they wanted me to get on the severely undergeared alt instead of my bis main

 

One time someone got mad at me for needing on a piece for my tank's DPS set and complained it should only be for your current role. I then proceeded to switch stances and tell him I am a DPS you can play tank now. He didn't argue after that

[KTap]

One time someone got mad at me for needing on a piece for my tank's DPS set and complained it should only be for your current role. I then proceeded to switch stances and tell him I am a DPS you can play tank now. He didn't argue after that

 

Ha! That sounds like something I would do

[DanNV]

So much this. I have gotten into a few arguments over this exact thing and the other people didn't seem to get it... they wanted me to get on the severely undergeared alt instead of my bis main

 

And they're right, unless you ask first. If you ask and no one else needs it for their character you probably won't have an issue. However, f you need something that your character can't use and didn't ask first they should kick you. It's that simple. Ask. If you can't do that, maybe you shouldn't be doing group content.

[FerkWork]

If you can't do that, maybe you shouldn't be doing group content.

 

Telling the guy who is 10/10 on the new Ops HM not to do group content.