Do we need better defenses or defenses streamlined with Cover

[PiRunner]

So i've been thinking that what we need isn't so much better cooldowns as we need improvements on defenses that work in cover. For example, ballistic dampeners is a nightmare to use because you have to pop in and out of cover like a crazy person every six seconds to get the full effect, but you cannot move in between that time because then you loose that bonus and can be leapt to, pulled, stunned or the like. I would much rather Ballistic dampeners work like this

 

"gain a charge of ballistic dampeners every 1.5 second in cover. Each charge absorbs 30% of an enemy attack. This effect cannot occur more than once every every 1.5 seconds. Stacks 3 times and lasts 6 seconds."

 

This still prioritizes staying in cover, but you don't have to worry about exiting cover causing a complete undoing of your defense as long as you get back in cover soon. The same thing would be great to see in spotter so you can position yourself around a node without loosing the ability too see stealth people for 30 seconds.

 

With evasion used in cover and the ballistic dampeners, you can negate almost 100% damage for 3 seconds, good if you know when solid burst is coming. Additionally, you can pop ballistic shield for an 50% reduction over 20 seconds, pretty good too.

 

I'll be honest, I don't know what Shield probe does. What is a "moderate" amount of damage absorbed, and how good is that? I always pop it in a fight, but I don't feel its effects like I do the other cooldowns.

 

And finally, there are two utilities that I can't find any use for at all that could be improved to help with survivability; vital regulators and cover screen.

 

Vital regulators is way too infrequent a heal to be a trusted defensive cooldown. Now if it was 3% every three seconds, than snipers who where really tied to cover would see a benefit from it. as is, 1% every three seconds it nuts underwhelming.

 

The only thing worse is cover screen. Exactly how much of our damage is white damage in a tech/force dominated world? and how much of that is ranged? What percent is 20% of a moderate percent of a low percent? not worth the utility point is what it is. It looks like an ability meant to give cover bonus to a player while they find cover again; but if so why does it give the worst bonus? I can't say let it give all bonuses over the duration; being able to move around without being leapt to or pulled is too op. It just needs something, perhaps it can prevent the pulls at least so you can actually find cover.

 

TLDR: I would be fine without a sniper panic button if our plethora of more moderate defensive abilities worked better and made more logical sense.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Looking at what Assassins / Shadows can, then I'd say : "Yes, we need more".

 

In facvt, I'm more or less satisfied with the defense abilities - my only problem is close combat that comes out of nothing and beats my Gunslinger, since Gunslingers are especially weak against close combat. Assassins are therefore the very best counter to Gunslingers - you just don't see them arriving = you don't use your defense screen(s) when you'd need it.

[OMGITSJAD]

Would love ballistic dampeners refreshing while staying in cover. A new charge every global cooldown alone would increase our survivability quite a bit. I think the self heal ticking for 1% each second would be reasonable as well. That or scratch the utility entirely and give us a decent heal when shield probe collapses to increase its effectiveness. Or make it 2% every second while in cover with Entrench up.

Also shield probe absorb is based on your bonus healing number partially. I also don't know if it's inconsistent or a static number cause sometimes I'll see a 12k heal on the scoreboard, the next a 17k heal, and I doubt it can crit.

Edited March 18, 2015 by OMGITSJAD

[Camelpockets]

Would love ballistic dampeners refreshing while staying in cover. A new charge every global cooldown alone would increase our survivability quite a bit. I think the self heal ticking for 1% each second would be reasonable as well. That or scratch the utility entirely and give us a decent heal when shield probe collapses to increase its effectiveness. Or make it 2% every second while in cover with Entrench up.

Also shield probe absorb is based on your bonus healing number partially. I also don't know if it's inconsistent or a static number cause sometimes I'll see a 12k heal on the scoreboard, the next a 17k heal, and I doubt it can crit.

 

Would be very helpful if they just combined the Dampeners and the HoT utility along with the auto-refresher on Dampeners. I haven't actually read the tooltip, does the Dampeners only absorb direct damage or any?

Edited March 18, 2015 by Camelpockets

[OMGITSJAD]

Would be very helpful if they just combined the Dampeners and the HoT utility along with the auto-refresher on Dampeners. I haven't actually read the tooltip, does the Dampeners only absorb direct damage or any?

 

"absorbs 30% of the damage of an incoming attack." I'm assuming it means all damage by that since it doesn't specify.

Edited March 18, 2015 by OMGITSJAD

[PiRunner]

Looking at what Assassins / Shadows can, then I'd say : "Yes, we need more".

 

In facvt, I'm more or less satisfied with the defense abilities - my only problem is close combat that comes out of nothing and beats my Gunslinger, since Gunslingers are especially weak against close combat. Assassins are therefore the very best counter to Gunslingers - you just don't see them arriving = you don't use your defense screen(s) when you'd need it.

 

On the flip side, we are pretty well stacked as an anti-stealth class already. We can already see stealth classes coming a mile away with our increased stealth level in cover. Coming from an engineer perspective I hardly ever have too many issues because I can cover my back with plasma probe and my front is covered with an increase in perception. MAYBE they should increase spotter to 35 stacks just so we have an advantage over people using the 15 stealth level passive plus blackout skill, but then again I don't want snipers to become too overpowered and thus hit with the nerf bat.

 

Snipers against melee is very polarizing in terms of match-up. If they open up on us, with stuns and the like, we go down like a sack of potatoes. But if we open up on them, we simply have such absolute control over them (Roots, stuns, hinders etc.) that its a little disgusting. I'm certain when people complain about to many hinders in a warzone, they are almost entirely talking about snipers.

 

One last thing I forgot to mention that is engineer only; I think that hitting a target stunned with the EMP-PP combo should reduce shield probe's cooldown by 5 seconds, entrench by 10 seconds, evasion by 15 seconds, and Ballistic Shield by 30. Improves survivability, gives us a reason to use EMP-PP despite its situational effects, and makes engineering feel closer too its pre-3.0 iteration.

[Thaladan]

too many simple ideas and adjusts are possible to make us just a little more viable...

 

but apparently it's too complicated for BW.

[LordCamTheGreat]

As one of the more balanced classes i'd say no, but since other classes like assassins and immunity bubble users etc exist, yes we need more defence, love the ideas here.

[Thaladan]

at least an adjustement concerning the utilities would be nice...

 

the 1st tier (skilful) is really poor. in fact there are only 3 utilities good in, so the choice is always the same.

 

the 2nd tier (masterful) is another thing, the choice is harder and i think BW can put downgrade some utilities in 1st tier (like calculated poursuit)

 

the 3rd tier (heroic), same than 2nd tier.I think some utilities don't deserve to be heroic (even if they are nice), like debilitating shots or crippling diversion.

 

---------------

 

Concerning the subject and defense in cover, i agree we need more.

 

1/ an idea i have, because it always upset me, it's when you are cc. be cc remove the cover, so just after be cc you have to put cover again...(if you want to active entrench or cover pulse for example)

 

so please, allow a sniper CCed while in cover to remain in cover.

 

2/ another idea would be to have the utilitiy to enter in stealth mode while in cover and out of combat, like a sniper hidden (seems legit). stealth would be broken after 1st shot or entering in combat)

Edited March 20, 2015 by Thaladan

[CaptQuazar]

Ballistic Dampeners auto refreshing has been on various player created lists of needed improvements for a long time. It would be nice to see it finally in game.

 

I agree that both Vital Regulators and Cover Screen are extremely weak, and not worth consideration in their current form. I think a way to improve Cover Screen would be to have it prevent leaps and pulls, as well as the 20% range defense increase, but drop the duration to 3 seconds and put a limitation of "can not occur more than once every 6 seconds" on it. That way it isn't OP.

 

As for Vital Regulators, I think it should modify Shield Probe so that it heals you for a flat % of the damage it absorbs over its duration. The % can be played with to find the right balance, and depending on how good it is, it may have to be moved to one of the other tiers.

 

I think that Evasion used outside of cover should resist Force and Tech attacks. It only lasts for 3 seconds and is on a 60 second cool down, so I don't think adding Force and Tech resist to it would make it OP.

 

And finally, I think that Covered Escape should purge roots. Since it already purges movement slowing effects, it should go that extra step and purge all movement impairing effects - minus stuns and special abilities like Electro Net.

 

2/ another idea would be to have the utilitiy to enter in stealth mode while in cover and out of combat, like a sniper hidden (seems legit). stealth would be broken after 1st shot or entering in combat)

 

I used to play a game that had snipers that could do this, so it's not unprecedented. Can't remember the name of that game, though.

Edited March 21, 2015 by CaptQuazar

[OMGITSJAD]

I think that Evasion used outside of cover should resist Force and Tech attacks. It only lasts for 3 seconds and is on a 60 second cool down, so I don't think adding Force and Tech resist to it would make it OP.

 

It does even though the tooltip doesn't say it.

 

Also everyone bring this discussion to the PTS thread.

[CaptQuazar]

It does even though the tooltip doesn't say it.

 

Also everyone bring this discussion to the PTS thread.

 

I'm not talking about the 75% reduction in damage from Tech and Force attacks Evasion gives while in cover, I'm talking about out of cover. When used out of cover in addition to the 200% increase to Melee and Range dodge, it should give 200% to Tech and Force resists.

[OMGITSJAD]

I'm not talking about the 75% reduction in damage from Tech and Force attacks Evasion gives while in cover, I'm talking about out of cover. When used out of cover in addition to the 200% increase to Melee and Range dodge, it should give 200% to Tech and Force resists.

 

75% is enough if you ask me, I guess it may as well be 100%, but I feel people would soon cry for nerfs. I'd take it lasting longer before I would want more f/t resistance.

Edited March 21, 2015 by OMGITSJAD

[CaptQuazar]

75% is enough if you ask me, I guess it may as well be 100%, but I feel people would soon cry for nerfs. I'd take it lasting longer before I would want more f/t resistance.

 

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I'm talking about buffing it when it is used out of Cover. The 75% damage reduction to Force and Tech only applies when Evasion is used in Cover. When used out of Cover, you get no protection from Force or Tech attacks through either mitigation or avoidance. What I'm saying is that in addition to the 200% increase in Range and Melee defense it provides when used out of Cover, it should also provide a 200% increase in Tech and Force resistance.

[MiaowZedong]

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I'm talking about buffing it when it is used out of Cover. The 75% damage reduction to Force and Tech only applies when Evasion is used in Cover. When used out of Cover, you get no protection from Force or Tech attacks through either mitigation or avoidance. What I'm saying is that in addition to the 200% increase in Range and Melee defense it provides when used out of Cover, it should also provide a 200% increase in Tech and Force resistance.

So you're saying it should be BETTER out of cover than in it? ....wat

 

Also, that would also mean you couldn't be stunned, knocked back, etc for 3 seconds. It would be downright silly. Basically Evasion+Shroud when not in cover.

 

I'm not a big fan of defences being streamlined into the Cover mechanic, it takes away something you have to think about and makes it passive (i.e. dumbs down the class). However that is in line with BW's current changes so it may happen. I don't think Snipers as a whole need more defences, but I do think Engineering should regain some of the ones it lost (or new ones to make up for them). Virulence probably needs a slight buff too, it doesn't seem that good a spec for anything right now.

 

I wouldn't be against Vital Regulators getting buffed, to say 0.5% or 0.75% every second. 1% every 3 seconds is just too weak.

Edited March 22, 2015 by MiaowZedong

[CaptQuazar]

So you're saying it should be BETTER out of cover than in it? ....wat

 

Also, that would also mean you couldn't be stunned, knocked back, etc for 3 seconds. It would be downright silly. Basically Evasion+Shroud when not in cover..

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. Snipers need viable means of escape from being focused since we'll never be able to just sit in cover and tank all damage from focus fire. And it wouldn't be silly since there are classes that can already do this plus a hell of a lot more.

Edited March 22, 2015 by CaptQuazar

[MiaowZedong]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Snipers need viable means of escape from being focused since we'll never be able to just sit in cover and tank all damage from focus fire. And it wouldn't be silly since there are classes that can already do this plus a hell of a lot more.

No there aren't. No class can obtain guaranteed resistance to all abilities while still running around and fighting. Sins have immunity for F/T and roughly 1 in 2 defence against M/R abilities; Maras have 99% reduction to damage while still being vulnerable to control and debuffs; and the current Sniper Evasion + Entrench, which only works in cover. Those are the nearest things—and note Snipers have the shortest CD on theirs. Sniper Evasion is already really, really, really good.

 

Also Snipers should never have stronger defences out of cover than in cover, that's just plain dumb. Maybe a few seconds of the same defences if they put utility points into it, a few seconds of "cover" while moving would be good. Though, Marksman (the other two specs not so much) is in a pretty decent place right now, so I'd be careful buffing it.

Edited March 22, 2015 by MiaowZedong

[OMGITSJAD]

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I'm talking about buffing it when it is used out of Cover. The 75% damage reduction to Force and Tech only applies when Evasion is used in Cover. When used out of Cover, you get no protection from Force or Tech attacks through either mitigation or avoidance. What I'm saying is that in addition to the 200% increase in Range and Melee defense it provides when used out of Cover, it should also provide a 200% increase in Tech and Force resistance.

No, you didn't understand what I was saying.

It does even though the tooltip doesn't say it.

By which I meant, it still provides the 75% reduction on F/T while out of cover even though the tooltip states that it only provides the protection in cover. Go test it out, I just did to make sure. Also no, the class should not have 200% F/T resistance when out of cover, even though it wouldn't be as OP as 12s stun immunity on Shroud. We aren't supposed to be mobile even though every other ranged DPS got mobility buffs. We already have Entrench, that's our stun immunity. We need better ways to turret beside just sitting there and dying a painful death because we can't facetank once Evasion is gone, especially now that a lot of classes are getting mobility buffs which evade the defenses we're supposed to have through roots/knockbacks.

Edited March 22, 2015 by OMGITSJAD

[CaptQuazar]

No there aren't. No class can obtain guaranteed resistance to all abilities while still running around and fighting. Sins have immunity for F/T and roughly 1 in 2 defence against M/R abilities; Maras have 99% reduction to damage while still being vulnerable to control and debuffs; and the current Sniper Evasion + Entrench, which only works in cover. Those are the nearest things—and note Snipers have the shortest CD on theirs. Sniper Evasion is already really, really, really good.

 

Also Snipers should never have stronger defences out of cover than in cover, that's just plain dumb. Maybe a few seconds of the same defences if they put utility points into it, a few seconds of "cover" while moving would be good. Though, Marksman (the other two specs not so much) is in a pretty decent place right now, so I'd be careful buffing it.

 

I forgot deflection is 50%. With how OP sins are it's easy to forget. In order to bring my idea in line with other abilities, I could live with 75% F/T resist while out of cover. I think it's acceptable for certain abilities to be as strong, or stronger - under certain circumstances- outside of cover. We are in desperate need of defensive capabilities that aren't tied to cover, and that aren't another form of CC.

 

No, you didn't understand what I was saying.

 

By which I meant, it still provides the 75% reduction on F/T while out of cover even though the tooltip states that it only provides the protection in cover. Go test it out, I just did to make sure.

 

I've never seen it work outside of cover. And if it did, it would be a bug since the Devs specifically stated in one of the live streams that it was tied to cover.

[OMGITSJAD]

I've never seen it work outside of cover. And if it did, it would be a bug since the Devs specifically stated in one of the live streams that it was tied to cover.

 

I had someone spam Flame Burst on me while out of cover. The damage was definitely reduced significantly when I had evasion up. Also this game has no bugs. Even if it is a bug, I think they should just remove that caveat from the tooltip instead of fixing it...it's only 3 seconds long who cares if it still works as you make a worthless effort to run away with your tail between your legs.

Edited March 23, 2015 by OMGITSJAD

[Gyronamics]

"gain a charge of ballistic dampeners every 1.5 second in cover. Each charge absorbs 30% of an enemy attack. This effect cannot occur more than once every every 1.5 seconds. Stacks 3 times and lasts 6 seconds."

 

Permanent passive +30% damage reduction limited to 1 hit per 1.5s?

 

Against a hard hitting internal/elemental boss a sniper would mitigate more than any tank without having to use any cooldowns. Or skill.

[PiRunner]

Permanent passive +30% damage reduction limited to 1 hit per 1.5s?

 

Against a hard hitting internal/elemental boss a sniper would mitigate more than any tank without having to use any cooldowns. Or skill.

 

That was something I was concerned about; 30% is an awful lot to have up all the time. I just don't tank so I had no idea how it goes.

 

Would something like every 3 seconds at 20% be fine? Or perhaps keep it 1.5 seconds for 10%. Basically I just want to use ballistic dampeners and still be in control of when and why I get out of cover.

[MiaowZedong]

That was something I was concerned about; 30% is an awful lot to have up all the time. I just don't tank so I had no idea how it goes.

 

Would something like every 3 seconds at 20% be fine? Or perhaps keep it 1.5 seconds for 10%. Basically I just want to use ballistic dampeners and still be in control of when and why I get out of cover.

 

As silly as the shuffle in and out of cover looks, it can be accomplished on the GCD of a Followthrough at no penalty. I think the current talent is fine and if the tradeoff for dumbing down its use is nerfing the talent, I'm definitely against it.

 

Gyronamics' point is also very specific to a very small number of PvE fights, but not as academic as you might think (since aggro drops are a thing, you could in fact have a sniper retain aggro, even against higher parsing DPS--wouldn't be as smooth as a proper tank, but after a while the threat would be established). In my opinion, though, it speaks more to how badly designed PvE is than anything else...

Edited March 23, 2015 by MiaowZedong

[PiRunner]

As silly as the shuffle in and out of cover looks, it can be accomplished on the GCD of a Followthrough at no penalty. I think the current talent is fine and if the tradeoff for dumbing down its use is nerfing the talent, I'm definitely against it.

 

Gyronamics' point is also very specific to a very small number of PvE fights, but not as academic as you might think (since aggro drops are a thing, you could in fact have a sniper retain aggro, even against higher parsing DPS--wouldn't be as smooth as a proper tank, but after a while the threat would be established). In my opinion, though, it speaks more to how badly designed PvE is than anything else...

 

Personally, its more than just silly, its a pain and a distraction because to take full advantage of it you don't get to choose when you enter and leave cover, you have to constantly time it right. In the thick of it, or when you really gotta move, you can't use this ability to the fullest. For that reason, not only do I think the other way is easier, I think it will do more damage reduction over all.

[Pherdnut]

We don't. We'll never be tanks when we turret and shouldn't be. What we need is reliable CC as the entire original class design is hinged on it. But the awkwardness of popping in and out of cover is what a lot of us enjoy about the class. I'm also not sure why we're the only class that doesn't get a passive speed boost given how critical mobility is. IMO, GS is not well-understood even by the PVP team.