The Most Powerful Force Users in the Galaxy (CANON)

[tunewalker]

For 3 secs, yes the environment favoured Windu. In fact others just got on his way. I wouldn't call it "environment" faovoured Windu. Also, Windu defeated Palpatine for real. Not just he "fell" crap.

 

Yoda was not cast down, he fell because of his small body. With that line he meant everything that happened in the PT, and he couldn't prevent it just like he couldn't defeat Palpatine in time.

 

A loss, is a loss. He confronted him, pulled a saber, they fought sabers and all, threw objects at one another had a Lightning vs Absorb battle, then the one who ended up on the ground battered, beaten and broken... was Yoda.

 

Windu vs Sidious.... Windu started with 3 other people that could have tired Sidious out, then to top it off what happened the Moment Anakin walked in, he played possum and then as soon as Windu was Disarmed got him with a crap ton of lightning who ended up dead? Oh right Windu.... now can we say with 100% certainty that Windu would have killed Sidious has Anakin not walked in.... NO, NO we cant, we dont know what would have happened if Anakin didnt walk in because Anakin DID walk in.

 

There was no need for manipulation with Yoda. The fight was Pure, start to finish, thus so was the result, unlike Windu.

[Permaximum]

A loss, is a loss. He confronted him, pulled a saber, they fought sabers and all, threw objects at one another had a Lightning vs Absorb battle, then the one who ended up on the ground battered, beaten and broken... was Yoda.

 

Windu vs Sidious.... Windu started with 3 other people that could have tired Sidious out, then to top it off what happened the Moment Anakin walked in, he played possum and then as soon as Windu was Disarmed got him with a crap ton of lightning who ended up dead? Oh right Windu.... now can we say with 100% certainty that Windu would have killed Sidious has Anakin not walked in.... NO, NO we cant, we dont know what would have happened if Anakin didnt walk in because Anakin DID walk in.

 

There was no need for manipulation with Yoda. The fight was Pure, start to finish, thus so was the result, unlike Windu.

 

I don't think casual fans who don't know anything about EU will agree with you that Sidious defeated Yoda in that fight. The problem is, EU fans are so biased in their unconscious, they always look an angle for Sidious. Yoda couldn't hold on to the ledge because he was near it when the blast occured, then EU fans take it as a Sidious win. Windu defeated Sidious, they think Sidious tried to manipulate Anakin who wasn't even there until the fight was already over.

 

If the fight was on an open neutral ground with no reinforcements on the way without any time restrictions, Yoda would eventually defeat Sidious 10/10. Even in his land, Emperor tried to escape from the fight.

[Aurbere]

Yep, they stated what's canon and not there. In the link above, I didn't see they changed their statement.

 

Databank kinda backs it up.

 

Why are you so willing to cast aside the official Star Wars website? It actually does provide canon information that is accepted by pretty much everybody except for you.

[tunewalker]

I don't think casual fans who don't know anything about EU will agree with you that Sidious defeated Yoda in that fight. The problem is, EU fans are so biased in their unconscious, they always look an angle for Sidious. Yoda couldn't hold on to the ledge because he was near it when the blast occured, then EU fans take it as a Sidious win. Windu defeated Sidious, they think Sidious tried to manipulate Anakin who wasn't even there until the fight was already over.

 

If the fight was on an open neutral ground with no reinforcements on the way without any time restrictions, Yoda would eventually defeat Sidious 10/10. Even in his land, Emperor tried to escape from the fight.

 

I could ask any one in my house, the only one that reads EU is me, and I honestly dont read much EU from the Clone wars series. I know of Dark Empire, but NEVER ONCE have I used it in an arguement because honestly I didnt Like Dark Empire, nor do I care, the movies ALONE are enough for me to reach my conclusions.

 

To me your conclusions look more like you are trying to pick and choose your EU material to support your claims rather then looking at the movies and the points of the scenes. My conclusions have 0 to do with EU. When you rectify your thick skull with that, you will realize the impass we have reached as well as realized your OWN biased view points are being placed on scenes. The fact that multiple interpretations of a scene exist, is a fact. The fact that every one is biased, is a Fact. The fact that I am NOT using the EU, nor do I care about the EU in this discussion.... is a fact.

 

I'm not making excuses for Sidious, the movie made the excuse for him. Other wise he should not have won against Yoda, and he did win. I could go up to my brother who knows nothing of the EU just scene the movies and is a big super hero fan, but not huge star wars fan, but still likes the movie ask him who would win Between Palpatine and Yoda (he doesnt know who Sheev is, he doesnt read the books) He would pop in the movie, go to the scene where they fight and say "there's your answer, why did you ask me such a stupid question?") then I say well Yoda is stronger then Windu, how did Windu beat him.... His answer is the same I gave you... he had 3 extra guys with him, and ya he dropped his sword but he didnt get to his force powers before Anakin walked in, who's to say he wouldnt have busted Windu up side the head with a chair and knocked him out the window.

 

This has NOTHING to do with the EU. I am not a Huge EU fan, believe it or not I have used the MOVIES in fights about the EU I think more then any one here, to the ANOYANCE of a lot of people on this forum. Especially where Luke is involved because NO ONE seems to like the idea that a guy that was "barely trained" could defeat some of the "greatest masters of all time".... even though he could according to the movies.

 

This guy I think is the closest thus far, based on just what was on screen.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8115212&postcount=163

[Permaximum]

Databank kinda backs it up.

 

Why are you so willing to cast aside the official Star Wars website? It actually does provide canon information that is accepted by pretty much everybody except for you.

 

Well, there they generally provide canon information which we already know but that site is not the canon "source". They just repeat what's already shared by the source materials. There can be false data that wasn't updated too with the recent retcon and there's a potential for editorial mistakes or even comments. Also I pointed out what they referred to with Palpatine's manipulation in that scene.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Permaximum

[tunewalker]

Well, there they generally provide canon information which we already know but that site is not the canon "source". They just repeat what's already shared by the source materials. There can be false data that wasn't updated too with the recent retcon and there's a potential for editorial mistakes or even comments. Also I pointed out what they referred to with Palpatine's manipulation in that scene.

 

[Permaximum]

I could ask any one in my house, the only one that reads EU is me, and I honestly dont read much EU from the Clone wars series. I know of Dark Empire, but NEVER ONCE have I used it in an arguement because honestly I didnt Like Dark Empire, nor do I care, the movies ALONE are enough for me to reach my conclusions.

 

To me your conclusions look more like you are trying to pick and choose your EU material to support your claims rather then looking at the movies and the points of the scenes. My conclusions have 0 to do with EU. When you rectify your thick skull with that, you will realize the impass we have reached as well as realized your OWN biased view points are being placed on scenes. The fact that multiple interpretations of a scene exist, is a fact. The fact that every one is biased, is a Fact. The fact that I am NOT using the EU, nor do I care about the EU in this discussion.... is a fact.

 

I'm not making excuses for Sidious, the movie made the excuse for him. Other wise he should not have won against Yoda, and he did win. I could go up to my brother who knows nothing of the EU just scene the movies and is a big super hero fan, but not huge star wars fan, but still likes the movie ask him who would win Between Palpatine and Yoda (he doesnt know who Sheev is, he doesnt read the books) He would pop in the movie, go to the scene where they fight and say "there's your answer, why did you ask me such a stupid question?") then I say well Yoda is stronger then Windu, how did Windu beat him.... His answer is the same I gave you... he had 3 extra guys with him, and ya he dropped his sword but he didnt get to his force powers before Anakin walked in, who's to say he wouldnt have busted Windu up side the head with a chair and knocked him out the window.

 

This has NOTHING to do with the EU. I am not a Huge EU fan, believe it or not I have used the MOVIES in fights about the EU I think more then any one here, to the ANOYANCE of a lot of people on this forum. Especially where Luke is involved because NO ONE seems to like the idea that a guy that was "barely trained" could defeat some of the "greatest masters of all time".... even though he could according to the movies.

 

This guy I think is the closest thus far, based on just what was on screen.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8115212&postcount=163

 

Easy, champ. I'm not even started to talk about your fanboyism for Luke Skywalker is the reason you favour Sidious over Yoda and Mace. I know what's behind your transparent skull.

 

Your brother is too casual for any movies then. Type Yoda vs Sidious fight in youtube and see what the movie fans think. Type Mace vs Sidious and see what the casual fans think.

 

BTW, that's the point of the unconscious. You don't know you are biased

[Permaximum]

 

Says who? The Luke Skywalker fanboy that once tried to argue his powers were on par with Yoda in the movies? The one who brang the topic into technological advancement in the different eras of the movies as the final argument to support his fanboyistic opinions?

Edited April 8, 2015 by Permaximum

[tunewalker]

Easy, champ. I'm not even started to talk about your fanboyism for Luke Skywalker is the reason you favour Sidious over Yoda and Mace. I know what's behind your transparent skull.

 

Your brother is too casual for any movies then. Type Yoda vs Sidious fight in youtube and see what the movie fans think. Type Mace vs Sidious and see what the casual fans think.

 

BTW, that's the point of the unconscious. You don't know you are biased

 

What you are refering to is "popularity"

 

Who are the 2 most popular characters in Star Wars.... oh right.. Vader and Yoda.... why is Yoda so Popular? Oh right because his look is iconic AND that whole Jumping around like a mad man in Episode 2 made peoples Jaws drop. Popularity decides those youtube debates, not logic.

 

The Casual veiwer is the intended Audience, more specifically the main stream Audience is the intended Audience. The thing they see is usually because that was the intent.

 

 

You have yet to show any proof for Luke NOT being that strong. Why would Yoda send Luke to Kill Vader and Sidious, (something he failed to do) if Luke wasnt at least on Par with Yoda.... logic is lacking on that one.

 

Edit: Sometimes I dont know if you are talking to me or yourself. I KNOW I am biased, but that doesnt mean YOU ARENT. Everyone is, its impossible to be human and NOT be biased.

 

 

Edit 2: to be percise I used quotes from the movies and the intended points of scenes of the movies as my proof, YOU used special effects as your proof (Crushing AT-AT in a comic, is flashy special effects), thus I used facts YOU used effects.

Edited April 8, 2015 by tunewalker

[Senrie]

Yoda peaked in popularity long before his Dooku duel, I'd say.

[Permaximum]

What you are refering to is "popularity"

 

Who are the 2 most popular characters in Star Wars.... oh right.. Vader and Yoda.... why is Yoda so Popular? Oh right because his look is iconic AND that whole Jumping around like a mad man in Episode 2 made peoples Jaws drop. Popularity decides those youtube debates, not logic.

 

The Casual veiwer is the intended Audience, more specifically the main stream Audience is the intended Audience. The thing they see is usually because that was the intent.

 

 

You have yet to show any proof for Luke NOT being that strong. Why would Yoda send Luke to Kill Vader and Sidious, (something he failed to do) if Luke wasnt at least on Par with Yoda.... logic is lacking on that one.

 

Edit: Sometimes I dont know if you are talking to me or yourself. I KNOW I am biased, but that doesnt mean YOU ARENT. Everyone is, its impossible to be human and NOT be biased.

 

 

Edit 2: to be percise I used quotes from the movies and the intended points of scenes of the movies as my proof, YOU used special effects as your proof (Crushing AT-AT in a comic, is flashy special effects), thus I used facts YOU used effects.

 

Seriously, you didn't want dying-old Yoda to fight Emperor and Vader and other imperial troops in the same time, did you? Yoda would be killed on sight with all-out Empire forces, but for Luke, Vader wanted his son and Emperor wanted a new apprentice. It's a whole different story. Yoda knew this.

 

Yoda has been more popular than everyone except Vader since the OT. I show proof you repeat your assumptions.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Permaximum

[Ghisallo]

starwars.com confirms Sidious was manipulating the fight with Windu:

 

All that says is when Anakin showed up Sidious played it well. It says NOTHING about how the fight developed. There is BIG difference between being a better warrior and being an opportunist... again note I do not say Windu is a better force user... just that Sidious, in what could almost be called "typical" Sith arrogance, engaged in a lightsaber fight when he should have from the jump been engaging in a pure force fight. There is nwhere nar enough with the new canon to say sho is more powerful when a lightsaber is not around.

 

even if I granted you your interpretation though....

 

I refer you to the screenplay info... which I posted earlier in the thread...which is he ONLY Canon for that scene in the "new" Canon. Starwars.com matters not to the new Canon.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

The enviroment Favored Windu... he had 3 other people with him. And defeated "easily" lol there was one point Sidious practically had His saber to Windu's throat if Windu didnt have room to back up he would have been cut down right there.

 

Yoda was cast down, he lost "failed I have, into exile I must go" there isnt much room for interpretation he lost. He had to flee. He could not continue the fight. GG Sidious Wins.

 

I already explained how that is in the script... do you REALLY want me to say again how it explains Yoda falls because of bad placement. As such that last fight between the two of them tells us nothing... MURPHY can be PITA.

[Permaximum]

Since this is a canon thread, here's the licensed Star Wars canon timeline. Updated the first post with the image link to get a better look at the canon.

 

http://d1oi7t5trwfj5d.cloudfront.net/64/4c/5117e0264e69aa44cb9d9e7d009f/star-wars-canon-timeline.01.S00B.LXXXXXXX.png

[tunewalker]

Seriously, you didn't want dying-old Yoda to fight Emperor and Vader and other imperial troops in the same time, did you? Yoda would be killed on sight with all-out Empire forces, but for Luke, Vader wanted his son and Emperor wanted a new apprentice. It's a whole different story. Yoda knew this.

 

Yoda has been more popular than everyone except Vader since the OT. I show proof you repeat your assumptions.

 

Yoda faced Sidious 1v1, lost... sends Luke KNOWING that Luke will have to eventually do the same, and will get the CHANCE to do the same..... meaning he has faith that Luke can do what he FAILED TO DO, YEARS prior, this has 0 to do with Vader, or the established Imperials.

 

Did Yoda get a chance to 1v1 Sidious? Yes... what happened? He Lost

 

Yoda Sends Luke since he has a chance to 1v1 Vader, and then 1v1 Sidious... even though HE failed to beat Sidious.... suggesting that at least in combat Luke can be on par if not better then Yoda.

 

 

Further, when Obi-wan asked to face the Emperor.... what was Yoda's response? Oh ya.... Strong enough to face this Darth Sidious you are not.... yet he sends Luke to do that exact thing, and you want to put Luke under Obi

 

And to the response that Yoda was popular before hand, yes that is correct. He has been toated as "most powerful force user" by casual fans since the day he lifted the X-wing by older fans. By younger fans (who are mostly doing the Vids that Permaxium here is talking about) it was the Dooku fight that caused a jaw drop for them for how flashy and "awesome looking" it was, and it is the popularity of the character (as it is with Vader) that prevents people from taking his bout at face Value (as it is with Vader vs Luke) Yoda and Vader are the 2 most popular characters in Star Wars, it also happens that because of this people will make any excuse for these 2 characters loss against an opponent that was SUPPOSED to be to powerful for them (Sidious and Luke respectively).

 

As far as the Script thing goes, as far as I am aware the script still expressed how Yoda was not powerful enough in the end to defeat Sidious. And there is just as much Murphy in the Fight with Windu vs Sidious as there was with Yoda. not to mention again as far as I know according to the script as soon as Anakin walked in the whole thing was a charade. Sidious had lost the saber duel, but that did not mean he had lost the battle by that point. And again, sure Murphy came in to Yoda vs Sidious, but Murphy comes in to EVERY fight. if There is one fight between the characters and we ARE making a list then we have to take things at face value for the sake of sanity and consistency if you HAVE to put 1 over the other (AND YOU DO HAVE TO) then in this case Sidious must be above Yoda because Sidious DID win that fight.

Edited April 9, 2015 by tunewalker

[Permaximum]

Okay okay you made your point. Eacy day, it's getting harder to reach an agreement for the top force users. So, let's go with the tiers (in alphabetical order) then.

 

Unknown Tier

Darth Bane, Darth Plagueis

 

Tier 1

Darth Sidious, Mace Windu, Mother Talzin, Yoda

 

Tier 2

Darth Tyranus, Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi

 

Tier 3

Darth Maul, Qui-Gon Jinn

 

Tier 4

Asajj Ventress, Quinlan Vos, Savage Opress

 

Tier 5

Other force users we have seen in the action

 

Anyone disagrees?

[Beniboybling]

Darth Maul has Force gripped Kenobi on two occasions with ease, so I would say Maul > Kenobi in Canon.

 

Really, Kenobi is not at all in the league of Tyranus, Vader and Luke when it comes to Force powers. Bearing in mind that Dooku has also gripped and ragdolled Kenobi in Canon with little difficulty

 

EDIT: The more I look the more I see issues, my rendition would look something like this:

 

Tier Zero: The Ones

 

Tier One: Darth Sidious, Mother Talzin, Yoda

 

Tier Two: Darth Vader, Mace Windu, Luke Skywalker, Count Dooku

 

Tier Three: Darth Maul, Savage Oppress, Asajj Ventress

 

Tier Four: Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Quinlan Vos, Plo Koon, Kit Fisto etc. etc.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Krimlord]

The ones >> Darth Sidious = Mother Talzin >= Yoda > Darth Vader >= Mace Windu = Count Dooku = Anakin Skywalker > Darth Maul > Savage Opress >= Obi Wan Kenobi = Asajj Ventress = Luke Skywalker > Qui-Gon and all other Jedi council members

 

And just for fun...

 

Darth Bane around = Vader's give or take a little. And Plagueis > Sidious.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Krimlord

[Permaximum]

We have lots of new force users now. Snoke, Kylo Ren and Rey along with Ezra, Kanan and inquisitors. Also we have more canon material at our disposal. So I'm updating my list.

 

1. Darth Vader (The Chosen One, brang Son and Daughter (the Ones) to their kness, Killed Palpatine with one hand, immensely powerful in the new canon material,)

 

2. The Ones (The Father, the Son and the Daughter. Almost living embodiments of the Force)

 

3. Yoda (When he was 900-years old he fought Palpatine. Palpatine tried to run away from the fight and had shown fear on his face throughout the fight. Yoda was unlucky with his position ( trying to reach above from the lower ground during the fight) and the gravity was working against him when he used TK. Because of his small size he dropped to the ground and Palpatine's guards came. So, he left. If it wasn't for the environment, the fate (refer to the prohecy) and the guards Yoda would defeat him eventually)

 

4. Mace Windu (Defeated Palpatine, respected and acknowledged Yoda's superiority, supports above)

 

5. Darth Sidious (Defeated Talzin with the help of Dooku and Grevious but Talzin had Maul's help too)

 

6. Mother Talzin (Was shown almost as powerful as Sidious in the canon comic)

 

7. Obi-Wan Kenobi (Defeated young Vader, almost killed Darth Maul, killed General Grievous)

 

8. Count Dooku (Defeated young Kenobi and very young Anakin Skywalker at the same time, killed by young Vader)

 

9. Luke Skywalker (Vader didn't show his full power against his son but Luke still bested conflicted and light-hearted Vader who was trying to lure him to the dark side. Luke also resisted the Emperor's influence )

 

10. Darth Maul (Killed Qui-gon Jinn, he's a survivor and he's still alive)

 

11. Qui-Gon Jinn (Very skilled fighter, great force knowledge, learned how to become one with the force)

 

12. Typical Jedi Council Member (Plo Koon, Kit Fisto etc.)

 

13. Kylo Ren (Had shown great force power)

 

14. Rey (Defeated injured Kylo-Ren, immense force potential)

 

15. Ahsoka (Could duel Ventress while she was a padawan with some help from another force user, quickly defeated two inquisitors as an adult)

 

16. Savage Opress (He could force-choke Dooku and Ventress in the same time)

 

17. Asajj Ventress (Was shown as a skilled fighter and assassin, dueled Kenobi and Anakin at the same time and survived a couple of times)

 

18. Quinlan Vos (Close to Ventress)

 

?. Kanan (Surely there were more powerful force users than him)

 

?. The Grand Inquisitor (Kanan eventually defeated him at last but he had shown decent skill with the force)

 

?. Ezra (Good force potential, only a child)

 

?. Snoke (He has great connection to the Force, is capable of sensing emotions and reading thoughts, wise and can see events from afar. Trains Kylo Ren, is the leader of the First Order)

 

?. Darth Bane (Created the sith rule of two and he's even known by the Jedi)

 

?. Darth Plagueis (According to Palpatine, he is so powerful and so wise that he could create life and save people from death. If what Palpatine say is true he is Godlike and no doubt takes the first spot)

Edited December 29, 2015 by Permaximum

[DarknessInLight]

My top five list(in reverse order) of the Most Powerful Force Users in the Galaxy:

 

5. Obi Wan Kenobi

The premier swordsman and diplomat of the Jedi Order, Obi Wan Kenobi was one of the Order's finest Padawan learners, and as Qui Gon Jinn noted, a much wiser man than he was. He defeated Darth Maul, gave Darth Tyrannus a run for his credits and killed General Grievous in his lifetime. He did become a great Jedi Knight and more. He became a hero of the Order and the Republic. It's a shame his Padawan fell to the Dark Side, through no fault of his own, however.

 

4. Yoda

The Grand Master of the Old Jedi Order deserves a spot in my top 5. He trained Jedi for 800 years of his life and was the lifeblood of the Order for that time. His defeat at the hands of Lord Sidious had to be humiliating and humbling at the same time. Still.....anyone who can lift a X wing fighter out of a swamp with one hand gets my vote!

 

3. Mace Windu

Perhaps there was something more to him than his Purple Lightsaber led us to believe. This is the guy who confronted Darth Sidious and defeated him in saber combat. Too bad that punk Anakin Skywalker had to ruin things.....

 

2. Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker

The Force was indeed powerful with Sidious' final apprentice. Whether he was Force choking an Admiral via holoconference for failing him for the last time or cutting his son's hand off in a fit of rage, Lord Vader was the physical embodiment of the Force itself.

 

1. Darth Sidious/Emperor Palpatine

The moment that cemented this for me was NOT his duel with Yoda. It was the moment Mace Windu and the Jedi "Dream Team" attempted to arrest him. When he screamed and flip/twisted in mid air to close the distance between himself and the Jedi, that was some kind of Force Stun, because Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin didn't really move until just before he killed them. Kit Fisto woke out of it, but it was too late, which sent Mace Windu into a totally defensive mode until he turned the fight to his favor in Palpatine's office. He was the master of the Dark Side, and it showed.

Edited December 28, 2015 by DarknessInLight

[DarknessInLight]

Absolute statements overrule feats.

 

Only a Sith deals in Absolutes.

[Permaximum]

Updated the first post with more info.

[Zharik]

There's nothing about that in the canon. Can you provide your source?

 

Over 20,000 midi fa king chlorians.

[DarknessInLight]

There's nothing about that in the canon. Can you provide your source?

 

Well, Anakin Skywalker IS the most powerful Jedi in the timeline we are talking about. The Midichlorians, like them are not, are canonized via the Prequels. Because his midichlorian count was higher than any other Jedi in the order, including Yoda, that makes him the most powerful Jedi in the universe at that time.

 

Source: Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace.

Edited December 29, 2015 by DarknessInLight

[Permaximum]

Over 20,000 midi fa king chlorians.

 

Potential and the most powerful are not the same thing.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Permaximum