The Sith and "The Force Awakens"

[TranYukon]

I was wondering what my fellow Star Wars fans were speculating about the villainy in The Force Awakens. It's clear from the trailer that the Empire will have a presence in it (thankfully), but what about the Sith? Personally I'm not expecting them to show up again, especially considering the whole chosen one prophecy and Anakin's fulfillment of it. I think this Kylo Ren character will be a dark jedi or some other non-sith dark side user, maybe like the inquisitor in Rebels. Don't get me wrong, I love the Sith, but I believe their story might be done. But who knows...

[IchibanSaru]

Assuming Palpatine is in fact dead, I can see someone else taking up the teachings of the Sith and adopting it. Perhaps another variation of it, but based on writings or even holocroms. The Force reaches out to those who are strong in it. Without the backward monastic constraints of the formal Jedi teachings, most force users would lean grey to dark if they had no outside influence to deter them. Passion and emotion.

I have a feeling there were/are other Sith in the universe that had no connection to Palpatine or the Empire. Luke's interpretation of the Force was sort of dark. He force chocked the guard in Jabba's Palace, he dressed in full black and even caressed the Dark Side during his fight with Vader in Death Star 2. I can see Luke taking a more grey or pragmatic view of the Force... the evolution that the Jedi needed since they were so bound by rules and clouded by introspection.

To paraphrase Dune: perhaps Luke is following the Golden Path when it comes to the Force.

[MadDutchman]

I think the prophecy was that he would bring the force back into balance, I think the Jedi just interpreted that as Sith.

[Rhyltran]

I think the prophecy was that he would bring the force back into balance, I think the Jedi just interpreted that as Sith.

 

No. The prophecy was. "The chosen one would destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force." George Lucas clarified on the prophecy and destroying the Sith is synonymous with achieving balance. However, this doesn't mean the Sith will be gone for good. It was the rule of two that created such an imbalance.

[Kaedusz]

I always thought that the Sith'ari prophecy about destroying the Sith and making them stronger than before was regarding only about the incarnation of the Sith that was existing at the moment - the Brotherhood of Darkness.

 

Same goes for the Chosen One.Destroying the Sith and bringing balance to the force regards just the incarnation of the Sith that were existing at that particular time,meaning Sidious and Vader.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Kaedusz

[Rhyltran]

I always thought that the Sith'ari prophecy about destroying the Sith and making them stronger than before was regarding only about the incarnation of the Sith that was existing at the moment - the Brotherhood of Darkness.

 

Same goes for the Chosen One.Destroying the Sith and bringing balance to the force regards just the incarnation of the Sith that were existing at that particular time,meaning Sidious and Vader.

 

This is correct. The current incarnation being the rule of two. Each time the Sith return the order evolves slightly. Obviously the rule of two didn't work. It produced Sidious, the most powerful Sith of his time, but in the end his apprentice turned to the light, destroyed him, and there was no one else to carry the legacy. In the EU this lead to the One Sith but in the movies that can very well be different but it's very likely it will be different. The rule of two probably died with Palpatine/Vader.

[fidothegran]

The prophecy does not refer to Anakin. The player character in the Revenant trilogy will fulfill it.

[IchibanSaru]

Returning "balance to the force" should mean the ascendency of the Grey Force users, who combine both light and dark teachings. The Jedi and Sith ways were done, but they represent opposite halves of the same coin. The Force is the force: whole and complete, whereas the Jedi and Sith are philosophical interpretations of how to use it.

 

Luke, by the time of RoTJ seemed pretty Grey in his force use. Not having the regimented education of the Jedi Padawan of the past allowed the use of emotion (albeit, not anger or fear). I can't see Ben or Yoda telling him about not being allowed to marry or have romantic involvements due to the time constraints and the nature of Luke's training.

 

With Lucas' skewed interpretation of "balance" no longer holding sway over the idea of the Force, I hope JJ Abrams allows Luke to evolve as a new kind of force user. I still see a dark sider or Sith being the enemy however.

Edited March 13, 2015 by IchibanSaru

[gsummers]

I never understood that prophecy. It seems like at the time, the Jedi were in ascendance. They had presence, numbers, power, etc. So if anything, during episode 1, the force was "out of balance" on the light side. So the prophecy of someone bringing balance to the force would mean strengthening the dark side, relative to the light.

 

Or you could say, well the prophecy means that at some point the dark side will be preeminent. At that point the chosen one will strengthen the light relative to the dark. But if that is the case, then the Jedi should have been like "hey, here is the one who will subdue the dark and strengthen the light.... but we are pretty strong right now... that must mean that some bad stuff is probably gonna start happening to us to make the dark strong and the light weak so that this kid can bring it into balance again. Maybe we should start being extra careful"

 

In either case the arrival of the chosen one meant nothing good for the Jedi. Yet it seems that they lacked these basic reasoning skills to see the signs of their times.

[Kaedusz]

The Force was out of Balance becuse starting with Tenebrous's Master and mainly due to Plagueis and Sidious through medtiation sessions and their will, they tipped the Force to the Dark Side in the Galaxy.The precognitive abilities of the Jedi and their connection with the Unifying Force were hampered.(the unifying force part is my speculation)

 

It's sort of a metaphysical war the Sith fought vs the Light Side and the Jedi in the Astral/metaphysical/whatever realm of the Force during deep meditation. And what they did was highly unnatural.That, along with the ''blasphemous'' attempts by Plaguis to create life out of nothing and to play god, made the Force fight back/retaliate and create the Chosen One with immaculate conception.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Kaedusz

[gsummers]

The Force was out of Balance becuse starting with Tenebrous's Master and mainly due to Plagueis and Sidious through medtiation sessions and their will, they tipped the Force to the Dark Side in the Galaxy.The precognitive abilities of the Jedi and their connection with the Unifying Force were hampered.(the unifying force part is my speculation)

 

It's sort of a metaphysical war the Sith fought vs the Light Side and the Jedi in the Astral/metaphysical/whatever realm of the Force during deep meditation. And what they did was highly unnatural.That, along with the ''blasphemous'' attempts by Plaguis to create life out of nothing and to play god, made the Force fight back/retaliate and create the Chosen One with immaculate conception.

 

Interesting. I guess this means I need to read that Darth Plagueis book that has been on my list for a while.

[Terro_Fett]

A lot of people seem to misunderstand what "Balance in the Force" means.

 

It does not mean an equal representation of Light and Dark Force users.

It does not mean the rise of "grey" jedi or anything along those lines.

 

There is no ying/yang that needs to be preserved.

 

The Jedi are balance. The Sith are imbalance.

 

The Jedi commune with the force, they see it as a friend and ally. They give to it as much as they take, always striving to preserve its natural state and maintain balance.

 

The Sith "use" the Force. They bend it to their will and take ownership over it. Through forceful means they subjugate it and exploit it for their own purposes, and in the process they taint and darken it. They throw it out of balance.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Terro_Fett

[IchibanSaru]

A lot of people seem to misunderstand what "Balance in the Force" means.

 

It does not mean an equal representation of Light and Dark Force users.

It does not mean the rise of "grey" jedi or anything along those lines.

 

There is no ying/yang that needs to be preserved.

 

The Jedi are balance. The Sith are imbalance.

 

The Jedi commune with the force, they see it as a friend and ally. They give to it as much as they take, always striving to preserve its natural state and maintain balance.

 

The Sith "use" the Force. They bend it to their will and take ownership over it. Through forceful means they subjugate it and exploit it for their own purposes, and in the process they taint and darken it. They throw it out of balance.

 

That's a Jedi's interpretation of it.

 

There is a Yin and Yang to the Force. It's why Irvin Kershner based Yoda's view of the Force on Taoism. Yoda spoke not of the "Jedi Force" but the Force is general. The fundamental Force that is outside of ideologies.

Of course neither a Jedi or Sith would admit that balance requires an equilibrium between their opposing ideologies. In their eyes: one must overcome the other completely. Both the Jedi and Sith have it wrong. They are absolutists and strive to destroy the other side. The force doesn't choose sides. It's an energy field. It is amoral. The Force doesn't empathize. It can't be corrupted or darkened.

 

The balance I referred to is one of philosophy outside and apart from the Force. The Force is without mind or motive. Both the Jedi and Sith failed due to hubris; thinking only their interpretation of the Force was the right one and thereby becoming trapped by rules and rituals. Balance can only be gained by letting go of the constraints of the past failed ideologies.

 

Luke (by the time of RoTJ) was experimenting with walking between the two ideological sides of the Force without becoming a slave to his passions. He considered himself a Jedi, but force choked a guard without hesitation. I see that as the evolution that is needed for the Force users in the new SW universe to succeed where the Jedi and Sith failed.

[Rhyltran]

That's a Jedi's interpretation of it.

 

There is a Yin and Yang to the Force. It's why Irvin Kershner based Yoda's view of the Force on Taoism. Yoda spoke not of the "Jedi Force" but the Force is general. The fundamental Force that is outside of ideologies.

Of course neither a Jedi or Sith would admit that balance requires an equilibrium between their opposing ideologies. In their eyes: one must overcome the other completely. Both the Jedi and Sith have it wrong. They are absolutists and strive to destroy the other side. The force doesn't choose sides. It's an energy field. It is amoral. The Force doesn't empathize. It can't be corrupted or darkened.

 

The balance I referred to is one of philosophy outside and apart from the Force. The Force is without mind or motive. Both the Jedi and Sith failed due to hubris; thinking only their interpretation of the Force was the right one and thereby becoming trapped by rules and rituals. Balance can only be gained by letting go of the constraints of the past failed ideologies.

 

Luke (by the time of RoTJ) was experimenting with walking between the two ideological sides of the Force without becoming a slave to his passions. He considered himself a Jedi, but force choked a guard without hesitation. I see that as the evolution that is needed for the Force users in the new SW universe to succeed where the Jedi and Sith failed.

 

This isn't correct. Look up George Lucas' views of the force and balance. This is not the proposed idea of balance. Even the novels disagree. Plagueis and Sidious both caused the force to shift to the dark side. The Jedi even sensed this and realized that dark times were coming. You mention Yoda but Yoda did not teach to use both aspects of the force. He stressed the dangers of the dark side and forbid the teaching of it.

[fidothegran]

What Lucas said doesn't matter at all anymore.

[IchibanSaru]

This isn't correct. Look up George Lucas' views of the force and balance. This is not the proposed idea of balance. Even the novels disagree. Plagueis and Sidious both caused the force to shift to the dark side. The Jedi even sensed this and realized that dark times were coming. You mention Yoda but Yoda did not teach to use both aspects of the force. He stressed the dangers of the dark side and forbid the teaching of it.

 

As I said in a previous post, Lucas' idea of "balance" was off and his convoluted plot about the "chosen one" and what the prophesy actually meant proves it as he wrote himself into a hole. Thankfully Lucas and his revisionist way of writing is gone.

Sidious used the Force to cloud the Jedi's vision and they sensed that as stated in the prequels. They could no longer trust their vision due to the blanket Palpatine was throwing over them to hide himself (standing right in front of them) and his plans. They sensed that "darkness" and knew it was the dark side... but the Force didn't shift, only the Jedi's perception within it.

 

Yoda didn't teach the dark side, but he did talk about it. He even made Luke confront the cave both as a test of Luke and as a reflection of his state of mind. It was a bit of a trick though because Luke brought his fears and weapons into the cave and therefore manifested his fear in a vision of himself becoming Vader. The cave wasn't full of dark side energy. It simply reflected what Luke brought with him.

Yoda knew from firsthand experience not to underestimate the power of the dark side of the force. He got his butt handed to him by Palpatine in the Senate Chamber and he realized how far the Jedi had fallen into hubris.

[Rhyltran]

As I said in a previous post, Lucas' idea of "balance" was off and his convoluted plot about the "chosen one" and what the prophesy actually meant proves it as he wrote himself into a hole. Thankfully Lucas and his revisionist way of writing is gone.

Sidious used the Force to cloud the Jedi's vision and they sensed that as stated in the prequels. They could no longer trust their vision due to the blanket Palpatine was throwing over them to hide himself (standing right in front of them) and his plans. They sensed that "darkness" and knew it was the dark side... but the Force didn't shift, only the Jedi's perception within it.

 

Yoda didn't teach the dark side, but he did talk about it. He even made Luke confront the cave both as a test of Luke and as a reflection of his state of mind. It was a bit of a trick though because Luke brought his fears and weapons into the cave and therefore manifested his fear in a vision of himself becoming Vader. The cave wasn't full of dark side energy. It simply reflected what Luke brought with him.

Yoda knew from firsthand experience not to underestimate the power of the dark side of the force. He got his butt handed to him by Palpatine in the Senate Chamber and he realized how far the Jedi had fallen into hubris.

 

Except that isn't the same as embracing it or using it. He understood the dark side was dangerous and he was teaching Luke how to fight it. This is no different than how the Jedi have been teaching for years. Also there's nothing suggesting that the new producers view the dark side differently than Lucas. Both in the EU and in G-Canon the dark side has been a negative influence that has brought imbalance to the force via the rule of two. The prophecy was never about destroying both the Jedi and the Sith.

 

Balance was returned by the destruction of both Palpatine and Vader.

 

Don't believe me? Look into the Plagueis novel. Plagueis and Sidious together manipulated the very nature of the force causing it to lean more towards the dark thus throwing the balance off. You want to use the argument "Well, that's legends?" Fine. The Tarkin Novel is in the new Canon and practically confirms the events that took place in the Plagueis novel. All evidence points to the nature of the prophecy being the destruction of the Sith.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Rhyltran

[DogMeat]

While the balance is restored...or is it.

With Sid and Vader gone, the balance is restored.

Light and Dark = Ying and Yang.

Sith are referred to as a race of people not just the dark side.

 

Sid nor Vader were Sith, but simple aspects of the dark side.

SO with that idea, I think the Sith will return as they are an integral part of the cannon.

 

Either way it will be a darker movie than ever before I think, that will lead to a couple more being made to "balance out the force" yet once again.

[Ghisallo]

I think the prophecy was that he would bring the force back into balance, I think the Jedi just interpreted that as Sith.

 

This is the thing. They even admit to have interpreting the prophesy wrong. First they ASSUME that the natural state of the force is the light side, no restoring balance is doing away with the Sith. Problem is time and again we see that the Force i simply the force. The Sith do not pervert it, if anything when a force uses their emotions and passions too freely the Dark side perverts them.

 

Over time I have come to conclude that bringing balance to the force was exactly what happened, just each side felt that the other side was a "perversion" and that balance meant removing that perversion. I think they both got it wrong.

 

You had 2 Sith in hiding, the dark side not doing much as they had to hide in the shadows. You had the Jedi order keeping peace. The Republic due to the peace the Jedi enforced had become corrupt, stagnant and overly bureaucratic. As such I started to look at it like Yin and Yang, Order v Chaos. Too much Chaos leads to entropy and violent destruction. Too much order leads to stagnation and again, eventual destruction (though a slow and wasting end vs a chaotic and violent one).

 

So bring balance meant wiping the slate all but clean so that the natural order, the balance between Yin and Yang could be reestablished.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

This isn't correct. Look up George Lucas' views of the force and balance. This is not the proposed idea of balance. Even the novels disagree. Plagueis and Sidious both caused the force to shift to the dark side. The Jedi even sensed this and realized that dark times were coming. You mention Yoda but Yoda did not teach to use both aspects of the force. He stressed the dangers of the dark side and forbid the teaching of it.

 

As was said Lucas doesn't matter anymore. Most importantly however he contradicts the CRAPPOLA out of himself constantly AND while he says this the rest of the EU contradicts it. Heck saying that "evil has been banished" completely contradicts how he has portrayed the force. The force users don't make the dark side, they are corrupted by it, seduced by it. How then can killing those corrupted by an outside evil destroy said evil? Answer it can't... it ill always be there.

 

This is why I have always said that Lucas i good at concepts but horrible at story telling and writing... because he can't even be consistent in how he expresses the rules and actions in a universe that he created.

 

Now we look at the fact that Lucas has been 100% locked out of any contribution to the current films. They have already said they will be taking elements here and there from legends to make the new Canon that moves forward. When you look at how JJ Abrams did the Star Trek Reboot where do you think he is going to go here. Clearly their will be dark side force users... thus clearly Lucas' comment of the chosen one "getting rid of evil in the universe" is false. Hell it ALWAYS had to be false otherwise the main trope of the movies... the battle between the light and dark sides of the force would be gone.

 

Lucas' comments are simply the same BS he always spewed. Lucas would finish a film... say something categorical and then when he needed a new plot device completely change his mind and issue a new statement, remaster his movies and say "what I said before never happened."

 

Anakin and Vader were two different people... using the force was like Yoga, any on could do it, THEN we get the midi-chlorians. Padme lives and flees to Alderaan with Leia, but then dies in child birth. I could go on but I started treating Lucas' categorical statements with a grain of salt in Episode 6 and started completely ignoring him when Episode 1 came out.

[Rhyltran]

As was said Lucas doesn't matter anymore. Most importantly however he contradicts the CRAPPOLA out of himself constantly AND while he says this the rest of the EU contradicts it. Heck saying that "evil has been banished" completely contradicts how he has portrayed the force. The force users don't make the dark side, they are corrupted by it, seduced by it. How then can killing those corrupted by an outside evil destroy said evil? Answer it can't... it ill always be there.

 

This is why I have always said that Lucas i good at concepts but horrible at story telling and writing... because he can't even be consistent in how he expresses the rules and actions in a universe that he created.

 

Now we look at the fact that Lucas has been 100% locked out of any contribution to the current films. They have already said they will be taking elements here and there from legends to make the new Canon that moves forward. When you look at how JJ Abrams did the Star Trek Reboot where do you think he is going to go here. Clearly their will be dark side force users... thus clearly Lucas' comment of the chosen one "getting rid of evil in the universe" is false. Hell it ALWAYS had to be false otherwise the main trope of the movies... the battle between the light and dark sides of the force would be gone.

 

Lucas' comments are simply the same BS he always spewed. Lucas would finish a film... say something categorical and then when he needed a new plot device completely change his mind and issue a new statement, remaster his movies and say "what I said before never happened."

 

Anakin and Vader were two different people... using the force was like Yoga, any on could do it, THEN we get the midi-chlorians. Padme lives and flees to Alderaan with Leia, but then dies in child birth. I could go on but I started treating Lucas' categorical statements with a grain of salt in Episode 6 and started completely ignoring him when Episode 1 came out.

 

You ignored the rest of my post didn't you? James Luceno was the one who wrote in the Plagueis novel that Sidious and Plagueis pushed the balance of the force to the dark side. No, I never said force users created the dark side. I merely said the rule of two Sith imbalanced it. This is because it was their desire and goal to eclipse the light side of the force with the dark side. It's like taking a Yin/Yang and making the whole thing Yang and removing the Yin. It's the same concept.

 

You can argue the Plagueis novel is legends but guess what? The Tarkin novel isn't and it was written by the same author who reiterated in said novel that Sidious goal was to make the entire force Dark. Rule of two Sith turning the force dark = Canon even in Disney's Canon. You should read the Tarkin novel. It pretty much reinforces everything in the Plagueis novel.

 

I'm going to be blunt with you. I know the EU has it's flaws. I think every fan knows that but if you really think there's not going to be contradictions etc in Disney's Canon you're mistaken. You know the number one problem for the contradictions and issues in the EU? Having multiple authors. When you have multiple authors write something there's going to be things that slip through the cracks. Different authors will have different interpretations and ideas about the setting.

 

Just like now there's apparently a secret Sith temple buried under the Jedi temple which was what was really clouding the Jedi's minds. You also have people claiming that the EU hyped characters up too much and made their powers ridiculous. One of the recent comics had Vader lifting an AT AT with one hand and beginning to crush it.

 

I'm not convinced that Disney isn't taking the same stance as Lucas. "We got rid of the EU because we want to go in our direction. We don't mind if authors write stories in 'our' universe. They can write whatever they want so long as it doesn't interfere with our movies." Could I be wrong? Sure but time will tell.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Kaedusz]

Sid nor Vader were Sith, but simple aspects of the dark side.

 

!?!?

 

The Sith were first species, then an Empire.Even SWTOR's Sith Empire is more like a modern nation state mindset wise ,not a UN kind of body like the Republic.

After they all fell, they became an organization that followed their ''religion''.With the Rule of Two the Sith became a secret cult or a ''sect'',still following the ancient Sith's religion and belief system.

 

The Sith are similar to the Mandalorians in this way.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Kaedusz

[Ghisallo]

You ignored the rest of my post didn't you? James Luceno was the one who wrote in the Plagueis novel that Sidious and Plagueis pushed the balance of the force to the dark side. No, I never said force users created the dark side. I merely said the rule of two Sith imbalanced it. This is because it was their desire and goal to eclipse the light side of the force with the dark side. It's like taking a Yin/Yang and making the whole thing Yang and removing the Yin. It's the same concept.

 

.

 

No, I did read it. My point was that Lucas said that the purpose of the Chosen one was to bring balance by fulfilling "the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe".

 

BUT Lucas changed his mind...

 

 

 

--In The Clone Wars the Father specifically states that the Chosen One is supposed to tame both the Light Side and the Dark Side and is supposed to replace the Father upon his death. The clear implication (when you look at Father's job) is that too much of the Light Side OR dark would have disastrous implications for the Galaxy at large.

 

 

 

--THEN to make things even better Lucas contradicts himself directly (i know a shocker), in the commentary for TCW: The Complete Season Three, where he says concept of bringing balance to the Force involved keeping the selfless (which he referred to as the light side) and the selfish (referred to by him as the dark side) both in check.

 

 

I don't really bring Legends or the old EU into it because of Lucas constantly changing his mind and the writers of the EU used what he had in mind at the time when they wrote their books.

 

--We saw A LOT that says there is both the light and dark side of the force always side by side and it's simply the choice of individuals as to which path they follow. (dawn of the Jedi is the best example here)

 

--Then he made the first statement about balance (my first paragraph) and this informs Plagueis.

 

THEN George goes back to the whole Yin/Yang thing when it comes to the Force, which is also reflected by in TCW Canon Dialogue. So when it comes to looking at the new movies I ignore Legends/EU as I can only deal with so much schizophrenia.

 

Trying to take any statement from Lucas as categorical is funny to me since he even contradicts himself/changes his mind (whatever) almost on a whim. He did it on Anakin/Vader, on Padme's death, on Jabba, on what makes a force users, on who the chosen one was (originally it was luke) and then finally on the purpose of the Chosen one and what bringing balance means. Just about every pivotal plot point from when he started the trip into the Star Wars Universe he has changed sometimes mid trilogy.

 

In the end we will have to wait until Episode 7 BUT even George changed his mind on what balance means... that change is confirmed in the new Canon with what the Father says in TCW AND JJ Abrams is director and Co-screen writer and we can see his take on good v evil in the new Star Trek movies, I think it's pretty clear that Balance means Force = Yin and Yang.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

!?!?

 

The Sith were first species, then an Empire.Even SWTOR's Sith Empire is more like a modern nation state,not a UN kind of body like the Republic.

After they all fell, they became an organization that followed their ''religion''.With the Rule of Two the Sith became a secret cult or a ''sect'',still following the ancient Sith's religion and belief system.

 

The Sith are similar to the Mandalorians in this way.

 

The Mandos aren't like that in the new Canon... they are a nation state with a home world and all that good stuff.

[Kaedusz]

The Mandos aren't like that in the new Canon... they are a nation state with a home world and all that good stuff.

 

I meant that they are similar to the Sith in a way that they are a society that adopts the belief system of a species that are long gone and calling themselves by those species.

 

Also why is that ''new'' Canon? Isn't the pacifist reformation part of all kinds canon.For the sake of argument if we reject canon laws, they are part of a historical continuity of Star Wars.

Even Pre vizsla talks about restoring the ways of the past and he in the CW, meaning the new Canon.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Kaedusz