Is BiowEAr embarrassed by their own triple-A MMO??

[Friend-Referral]

For the past year or so, there has been little to no depthness to the communication to us, the community, to the development of this game. Even when the community team stated many times in the past that there would be more transparency in their communication to us, they've failed to stick to their word. They've even failed to address how good (or bad) this game is doing populationally. Even when they do, as time passed and subscription numbers tanked, EA continued to be less and less transparent, and it seems that the devs would release heavily commercialized huge updates before quarterly reports in order to hype subscription and/or player numbers and income made.

 

Is this game in maintenance mode, and if so, how long has it been and how long will this lack of quantity and quantity to the development of SWTOR continue? My sub is almost up and as a PvP'er and generally dedicated subscriber I fail to see anything to keep me here any longer. I hope I'm not the only one who feels the same.

Edited March 13, 2015 by ColorfulCaiques

[akdonkey]

I couldn't find the link but according to Forbes this game came in second behind wow for profits last quarter. I would not call that a failure.

[llayles]

I don't want SWtor to die. The next game will take place in the time frame of the films and nobody wants that. : ' (

[Jrr_hypernova]

well if everytime i tried talkeing to someone i got insulted id proably punch them in the face or ignore them utterly so personaly id say the fact there willing to talk at all with this toxic pit is pretty good and as for matnice mode we just came out of a expansion and theres a big udate planed for spring troll harder. btw eaware is idiotic and your varation of it more so than the normal version.

[jovianus]

I couldn't find the link but according to Forbes this game came in second behind wow for profits last quarter. I would not call that a failure.

 

How far behind? Because we're definitely not getting the same level of content as WoW.

 

Or they managed to make that profit due to their policy of cutting corners everywhere they can.

Edited March 12, 2015 by jovianus

[Darth_Wicked]

Or they managed to make that profit due to their policy of cutting corners everywhere they can.

 

Is this a tirade against skimpy clothing?

 

Naughty, naughty.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Kelleth]

How far behind? Because we're definitely not getting the same level of content as WoW.

 

That is true, we get a lot more bug fixes than WoW does, we get less content as a result though.

[DarthDymond]

How far behind? Because we're definitely not getting the same level of content as WoW.

 

Or they managed to make that profit due to their policy of cutting corners everywhere they can.

WoW's always been in a league of its own. I hadn't heard anything about numbers from last quarter, but I know when the MMO list for 2013 came out WoW's market share (at #1) was as much as #2 through #8 combined.

Is this game in maintenance mode, and if so, how long has it been and how long will this lack of quantity and quantity to the development of SWTOR continue?

You certainly may feel that the updates they are putting out aren't the sort of content you'd like to see, but 'maintenance mode' is a very particular criticism of a game - that they aren't putting out updates of any size / substance. Given that in the past 12 months we've seen a new player housing & decoration system, new flashpoints, new operations, a raised level cap, new planets/daily areas, new events, and new storylines, I would say it's a bit of a stretch to claim SWTOR's in maintenance mode.

Edited March 12, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Sangrar]

You certainly may feel that the updates they are putting out aren't the sort of content you'd like to see, but 'maintenance mode' is a very particular criticism of a game - that they aren't putting out updates of any size / substance. Given that in the past 12 months we've seen a new player housing & decoration system, new flashpoints, new operations, a raised level cap, new planets/daily areas, new events, and new storylines, I would say it's a bit of a stretch to claim SWTOR's in maintenance mode.

 

exactly, don't forget Ziost, togruta, and the costume designer coming soon among other things. I won't pretend that it hasn't been slow lately or that Bioware hasn't made mistakes, but still the game is far from maintenance mode still.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Sangrar

[Djiini]

I'm embarrassed to be a part of this community, so it balances out.

[Happy_Puppy]

Lack of communication, slow bug fixs.. super slow balance patchs for pvp.. slow content.. hall marks of the 2nd best western mmo...

 

I just hoping they are building up content for end of the year and start of next year.. with Star Wars ep VII incoming late in the year we will be getting a influx of new players.. this happened with LOTOR after the Lord of the Rings movies came out.

 

Lets hope they capitalize it... first impressions go a long way.

[Ghisallo]

People forget that in the business world things are only an embarrassment when you lose money... In 2013 SWTOR, according to both Forbes and Super Data Research made a total of 165 million...slotting in at number 4. For 2014 they slid to #11 at a little over 100 million BUT these numbers were before SoR Launched so it is a good bet they made at least the 10 million to get back into the top 10.

 

As long as SWTOR keeps a place in the top 10 of revenue the bean counters will give Bioware a thumbs up and there will be no embarrassment.

 

Now all that said do I like this? HELL NO. Do I want better communication and faster bug fixes? ABSOLUTELY. That said what forces change is people walking with their wallets. You can complain until you are blue in the face but if your subscription keeps ticking, if you keep buying the next expac or stuff off the cartel market... as far as they are concerned things are okay.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Andrellma]

Maintenance mode is basically what Guild Wars (the original, not 2) is in. Servers are up, and preprogrammed events are running, but there is absolutely zero content being developed, and the only time the game even gets looked at is if the servers go down.

 

SWTOR is far from that point. There is plenty of content coming out on a (somewhat) regular basis. Sure, a lot of the content (GSF, GSH especially) appeal to very niche markets, and not all of the content will appeal to everyone, but to claim that no content is being released has absolutely no basis in fact. Sure, some areas could warrant more attention (especially PVP), but just because some areas of the game have been unfairly neglected does not warrant a claim of "maintenance mode."

[Ghisallo]

Maintenance mode is basically what Guild Wars (the original, not 2) is in. Servers are up, and preprogrammed events are running, but there is absolutely zero content being developed, and the only time the game even gets looked at is if the servers go down.

 

SWTOR is far from that point. There is plenty of content coming out on a (somewhat) regular basis. Sure, a lot of the content (GSF, GSH especially) appeal to very niche markets, and not all of the content will appeal to everyone, but to claim that no content is being released has absolutely no basis in fact. Sure, some areas could warrant more attention (especially PVP), but just because some areas of the game have been unfairly neglected does not warrant a claim of "maintenance mode."

 

This is pretty true. I have played at least 10 AAA MMOs since 1999, often more than one at a time (right now I play two). Every game has players that complain about "maintenance mode" when what is important to THEM is not addressed quick enough for their taste. If you don't like GSF or Strongholds... The fact no new PvP matches or FP/OPs were introduced means they aren't doing anything. If they were busy rebalancing for PvP and there hasn't been a patch for PvE it means they weren't doing anything.

 

What is even funnier (or sad) is this. If players believe this... That Bioware is doing nothing...and they are thus so unhappy, still playing and especially still paying Bioware money, means they aren't going to change much. They data mine "how many players total are logging in and doing stuff", and look at accounting sheets. If the # of players and incoming revenue matches up with projections for their place in the expac life cycle they have NO incentive to change. So if you are so unhappy stop playing, stop paying...NOT because I want to see anyone go but because these are the actions that will compel change. I know lots of devs. Threads with titles like this one are not ones that compel change. Hell I once had one of the more well known Senior Producers tell me half the reason for forums was to be a pressure valve, let people blow off steam in a venue they think will get the devs attention...thus they are less likely to walk away with their money. Why? Because they simply can't address every concern in what every person sees as a timely manner and pointing out that reality causes even bigger problems because heaven forbid every player not be treated like a "special little snowflake.". That was the Producer's term BTW...not mine.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Suromir]

I couldn't find the link but according to Forbes this game came in second behind wow for profits last quarter. I would not call that a failure.

 

Guess you missed the part where the devs touted and boasted that they were gunning to take WoW down and SWTOR was a pay-to-play ONLY game on release.

 

players quit in scores, servers became ghost towns, revenue dropped to the point they were forced to go F2P in less than a year...a new "record" in MMO failures.

 

Going F2P was the only option they had. And sure, it recovered and because of the cash shop and...special players...they now rake in the $$$.

 

But that doesn't change the FACT...SWTOR is one of, if not THE, biggest MMO failure in history. It was just LUCKY for them that they were able to turn it around.

 

No I'm not searching for "sources" I don't care if you believe me or not...you can find them yourself. But it is a FACT they were gunning to take WoW down. Boasted about it all the time in the years it was under development...I kept up with it's development almost religiously and remember those videos and their boastful words about taking down WoW VERY WELL...

 

Regardless the game did "fail" in it's initial premise and intent.....again..they were just able to "save" it by going F2P and now turn a good profit. Which I'd argue is due to the SW name more than the quality of the game itself.

[Happy_Puppy]

This is pretty true. I have played at least 10 AAA MMOs since 1999, often more than one at a time (right now I play two). Every game has players that complain about "maintenance mode" when what is important to THEM is not addressed quick enough for their taste. If you don't like GSF or Strongholds... The fact no new PvP matches or FP/OPs were introduced means they aren't doing anything. If they were busy rebalancing for PvP and there hasn't been a patch for PvE it means they weren't doing anything.

 

What is even funnier (or sad) is this. If players believe this... That Bioware is doing nothing...and they are thus so unhappy, still playing and especially still paying Bioware money, means they aren't going to change much. They data mine "how many players total are logging in and doing stuff", and look at accounting sheets. If the # of players and incoming revenue matches up with projections for their place in the expac life cycle they have NO incentive to change. So if you are so unhappy stop playing, stop paying...NOT because I want to see anyone go but because these are the actions that will compel change. I know lots of devs. Threads with titles like this one are not ones that compel change. Hell I once had one of the more well known Senior Producers tell me half the reason for forums was to be a pressure valve, let people blow off steam in a venue they think will get the devs attention...thus they are less likely to walk away with their money. Why? Because they simply can't address every concern in what every person sees as a timely manner and pointing out that reality causes even bigger problems because heaven forbid every player not be treated like a "special little snowflake.". That was the Producer's term BTW...not mine.

 

Agreed.. but perception of doing something or nothing is what really I think at issue.

 

GW2 devs are very active on there forums, from light hearted comments to out right talking about balance ideas.

 

SWTOR devs are not very active on the boards.. and the running joke is "coming soon" is all you get. Now do they say more then "coming soon" sure. But its the perception of the community that they don't care.

 

SWTOR devs or at least there community mangers need to be more active. Over all bug fixs and balance patchs should be a faster. Seems we only hear the Devs when really huge uproars happen such as slot machine issue.

 

Maybe with SWTOR climbing up the MMO revenue charts EA will a lot more resource to the game. EA was in panic mode after launch.. SWTOR after all they were claiming the next big thing.. the WoW killer. they were expecting a lot more from their 300 million dollar investment.

 

I would expect more marketing for SWTOR will come at the end of the year... lets hope more open communication will come with it.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Happy_Puppy

[Ghisallo]

Agreed.. but perception of doing something or nothing is what really I think at issue.

 

GW2 devs are very active on there forums, from light hearted comments to out right talking about balance ideas.

 

SWTOR devs are not very active on the boards.. and the running joke is "coming soon" is all you get. Now do they say more then "coming soon" sure. But its the perception of the community that they don't care.

 

SWTOR devs or at least there community mangers need to be more active. Over all bug fixs and balance patchs should be a faster. Seems we only hear the Devs when really huge uproars happen such as slot machine issue.

 

Maybe with SWTOR climbing up the MMO revenue charts EA will a lot more resource to the game. EA was in panic mode after launch.. SWTOR after all they were claiming the next big thing.. the WoW killer. they were expecting a lot more from their 300 million dollar investment.

 

I would expect more marketing for SWTOR will come at the end of the year... lets hope more open communication will come with it.

 

Oh I agree things could be better but often, sadly, the "soft" resources are the first cut when cuts are made. You need product so engineers and programmers stay. Additionally, like you said, a lot of it is perception.

 

In the other game I play there was a class Dev who was to start the most communicative on the planet on the forums. However whenever he made a change somebody didn't agree with he got viciously attacked. He would try to explain why the changes were made (and they were good reasons) and the attacks in response were simply brutal. So what happened? Beyond starting the occasion "class bug list" thread or "here is the state of the current build" on PTS he said "I don't get paid to get abused, I get paid to do my job which is managing the Rogues."

 

Now there were those of us who gave constructive criticism and suggestions via PMs and we got plenty of responses...however forum rules in that game prevent the release of PM conversations with staff. I could tell from the exchanges that he was also reading the forums. So the Dev is question was paying attention, he was doing everything he could, he just got tired of being the punching bag for the VERY vocal, and brutal, segment of the player base that nerd raged whenever they didn't get what they wanted so he didn't talk on the forums unless necessary.

[BrianDavion]

Guess you missed the part where the devs touted and boasted that they were gunning to take WoW down and SWTOR was a pay-to-play ONLY game on release.

 

players quit in scores, servers became ghost towns, revenue dropped to the point they were forced to go F2P in less than a year...a new "record" in MMO failures.

 

Going F2P was the only option they had. And sure, it recovered and because of the cash shop and...special players...they now rake in the $$$.

 

But that doesn't change the FACT...SWTOR is one of, if not THE, biggest MMO failure in history. It was just LUCKY for them that they were able to turn it around.

 

No I'm not searching for "sources" I don't care if you believe me or not...you can find them yourself. But it is a FACT they were gunning to take WoW down. Boasted about it all the time in the years it was under development...I kept up with it's development almost religiously and remember those videos and their boastful words about taking down WoW VERY WELL...

 

Regardless the game did "fail" in it's initial premise and intent.....again..they were just able to "save" it by going F2P and now turn a good profit. Which I'd argue is due to the SW name more than the quality of the game itself.

 

 

the only failure I see there was a poor understanding of the market. if a MMO dev told me his new game was going to take WoW down I'd outright laugh in his face. yet again SW:TOR is making money it's far from a failure. it may have not succeeded to the degree people who didn't understand the market expected. but it's done as well as could be expected

[BrianDavion]

Oh I agree things could be better but often, sadly, the "soft" resources are the first cut when cuts are made. You need product so engineers and programmers stay. Additionally, like you said, a lot of it is perception.

 

In the other game I play there was a class Dev who was to start the most communicative on the planet on the forums. However whenever he made a change somebody didn't agree with he got viciously attacked. He would try to explain why the changes were made (and they were good reasons) and the attacks in response were simply brutal. So what happened? Beyond starting the occasion "class bug list" thread or "here is the state of the current build" on PTS he said "I don't get paid to get abused, I get paid to do my job which is managing the Rogues."

 

Now there were those of us who gave constructive criticism and suggestions via PMs and we got plenty of responses...however forum rules in that game prevent the release of PM conversations with staff. I could tell from the exchanges that he was also reading the forums. So the Dev is question was paying attention, he was doing everything he could, he just got tired of being the punching bag for the VERY vocal, and brutal, segment of the player base that nerd raged whenever they didn't get what they wanted so he didn't talk on the forums unless necessary.

 

 

Don't blame him I know someone who was involved in another MMO whose told me pretty much the same thing. why would the devs want to talk to us? when we get threads like this one.

[Ghisallo]

Don't blame him I know someone who was involved in another MMO whose told me pretty much the same thing. why would the devs want to talk to us? when we get threads like this one.

 

Oh I didn't blame him at all. I completely saw the guys point and even told people such when they said "why doesn't so and so communicate with us!?!?!" Usually the people screaming the loudest were ones I could answer by saying "go look in the mirror, you and your kind are why."

[Ghisallo]

the only failure I see there was a poor understanding of the market. if a MMO dev told me his new game was going to take WoW down I'd outright laugh in his face. yet again SW:TOR is making money it's far from a failure. it may have not succeeded to the degree people who didn't understand the market expected. but it's done as well as could be expected

 

Actually the Senior Producer at the time said later at a Game Developers trade conference why it failed...here are the cliff notes.

 

Bioware themselves had never worked with the engine, with the genre, or with a team anywhere near as large as the SWTOR team. EA also started pushing a "hard release date.".

 

Under those pressures Bioware fell back on their comfort zone...the story based RPG. Ergo they had little end game (only one OP), the engine itself still wasn't finished and trying to do BOTH the grand storyline...this time for 8 classes AND the MMO together created a budget where in essence the break even point was 500,000 sustained subscribers (per EA). On top of all this Bioware devs thought it would take 3-5 months for players to reach max level.

 

When they were forced to release a game that, at the time, would only appeal to the story driven player with altitis they were screwed. If EA had given em more time or if Bioware hadn't retreated, under the stress, to their comfort zone, if EA had not gone with Bioware and instead used a more traditional MMO dev team, maybe things would have turned out different, we'll never know. It really seems to be more about internal EA/Bioware dynamics though than a misread of the market. EA went with Bioware which meant a bloated budget to bring a hybrid Single player RPG/MMORPG...Bioware was completely unprepared for the rigors of dealing with an MMORPG...the engine they picked to make their game wasn't even finished... Before you even get to the market analysis there are problems.

 

Here is a link regarding the 2013 gdc presentation...http://www.pcgamer.com/bioware-gdc-panel-star-wars-the-old-republic/. If you google bioware SWTOR gdc 2013 you will find the points I note above spread around the various write ups.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Ghisallo

[GrimRita]

I couldn't find the link but according to Forbes this game came in second behind wow for profits last quarter. I would not call that a failure.

 

Forbes and many others are from 2013, just after F2P arrived. The game made around $165 from income - not subs, as there's hardly any!

 

The last financial report for SWTOR was Nov 2014 and everything is in decline, this despite Strongholds being released.

 

Link

 

Reddit Link

 

To pick out a quote

$62 million decrease primarily from the SimCity franchise and Star Wars: The Old Republic.

SWTOR made $165m in 2013 it was reported. To lose over $100m in 12 months is a big deal, especially now they mix the figures in with Sim City, to hide their shame

 

If SWTOR had actually increased its subscriber numbers, EA would have been the first to shout about it. Why? Because it would be the very first MMO since WOW/Eve to actually increase Subs as a Paid MMO.

 

You can see for yourself how empty places are becoming again. Q times are taking longer and the fact Operations and Warzone passes are on sale for the very first time EVER tells you the reasons why. Locking content, especially extremely OLD content, behind a pay wall, does not work.

Edited March 12, 2015 by GrimRita

[AshenK]

Forbes and many others are from 2013, just after F2P arrived. The game made around $165 from income - not subs, as there's hardly any!

 

The last financial report for SWTOR was Nov 2014 and everything is in decline, this despite Strongholds being released.

 

Link

 

Reddit Link

 

To pick out a quote

$62 million decrease primarily from the SimCity franchise and Star Wars: The Old Republic.

SWTOR made $165m in 2013 it was reported. To lose over $100m in 12 months is a big deal, especially now they mix the figures in with Sim City, to hide their shame

 

If SWTOR had actually increased its subscriber numbers, EA would have been the first to shout about it. Why? Because it would be the very first MMO since WOW/Eve to actually increase Subs as a Paid MMO.

 

You can see for yourself how empty places are becoming again. Q times are taking longer and the fact Operations and Warzone passes are on sale for the very first time EVER tells you the reasons why. Locking content, especially extremely OLD content, behind a pay wall, does not work.

this

 

its clear that the game is dying at this point but no one wants to admit it. gsf? failure. strongholds? failure. sor? failure. this game is losing more money then its bring in and i'm sure ea and disney has taken note of it. more so ea is losing tons of money today they put up all the dlc for titanfall for free and have the new dragon age up with a free trial.

 

really at this point it's time to pull the plug disney needs to work on getting a real mmo going and tor isn't it.

[Happy_Puppy]

Forbes and many others are from 2013, just after F2P arrived. The game made around $165 from income - not subs, as there's hardly any!

 

The last financial report for SWTOR was Nov 2014 and everything is in decline, this despite Strongholds being released.

 

Link

 

Reddit Link

 

To pick out a quote

$62 million decrease primarily from the SimCity franchise and Star Wars: The Old Republic.

SWTOR made $165m in 2013 it was reported. To lose over $100m in 12 months is a big deal, especially now they mix the figures in with Sim City, to hide their shame

 

If SWTOR had actually increased its subscriber numbers, EA would have been the first to shout about it. Why? Because it would be the very first MMO since WOW/Eve to actually increase Subs as a Paid MMO.

 

You can see for yourself how empty places are becoming again. Q times are taking longer and the fact Operations and Warzone passes are on sale for the very first time EVER tells you the reasons why. Locking content, especially extremely OLD content, behind a pay wall, does not work.

 

Wait there some screwy math here.. SWTOR made 138 mil from cartel market and another 30 mill or so from subs. That would mean that SWTOR has about 2 million subs.. far from hardly any subs. But then says its lost money from Sims and SWTOR.. I do not get how they lost money but have made money and have almost 30 mil just form subs. and another 138 mil from cash shop....

[Ghisallo]

Forbes and many others are from 2013, just after F2P arrived. The game made around $165 from income - not subs, as there's hardly any!

 

The last financial report for SWTOR was Nov 2014 and everything is in decline, this despite Strongholds being released.

 

Link

 

Reddit Link

 

To pick out a quote

$62 million decrease primarily from the SimCity franchise and Star Wars: The Old Republic.

SWTOR made $165m in 2013 it was reported. To lose over $100m in 12 months is a big deal, especially now they mix the figures in with Sim City, to hide their shame

 

If SWTOR had actually increased its subscriber numbers, EA would have been the first to shout about it. Why? Because it would be the very first MMO since WOW/Eve to actually increase Subs as a Paid MMO.

 

You can see for yourself how empty places are becoming again. Q times are taking longer and the fact Operations and Warzone passes are on sale for the very first time EVER tells you the reasons why. Locking content, especially extremely OLD content, behind a pay wall, does not work.

 

Look at SWTOR being broken out from the other games... http://www.swtorstrategies.com/2014/10/swtor-revenues-climb-over-100-million-for-2014.html

 

The last financials are before the release of SoR... Currently the only reports cover January 2014-Sept 2014. All MMOs have financial and subscriber drops, which are typically steepest just prior to the launch of the expac.... especially revenue. Don't forget, total revenue also includes sales of the game itself, not just micro transactions and subscriptions.

 

Why do you think WoW typically only releases to the general public subscriber numbers after expac launches? Players consume content faster that the devs can make it...they get bored...walk away BUT often come back to check out the new expac.

 

So in 2013 they topped out at 139 million in f2p revenue. http://www.gamespot.com/articles/wow-was-the-top-subscription-mmo-in-2013-star-wars/1100-6421191/ here you see the chart of their total revenue, 165 million for 2013.

 

Pre SoR Launch they were just outside of the top 10 at 106 million in f2p revenue alone...here is the analysis based on information from Super Data Research which does market analysis...

 

The latest report released covers January to September 2014 and looks at the top 10 MMOs by revenue for the year. While SWToR didn’t make the top 10, it still remains at a respectable no.12 with $106 million in revenue, right behind Elder Scrolls Online with $111 Million. Keeping in mind that Shadow of Revan is yet to be released, one would expect to see a significant increase over the last 3 months of the year...

 

Also, again, don't forget that is f2p revenue only. Add in subscriptions etc and they have more than 106 million.

 

Now does this mean they would make 30 million in the last 3 months in f2p revenue? 65 million in total revenue? Even I have to say that is hopeful (bit not impossible either), but the drop will at a minimum have been greatly mitigated by SoR launch. It would not be unrealistic for it to get back into the top 10 if you look at it impartially. As such saying it is clearly in decline is more than a little jump in logic. Wait to see the numbers of the last 3 months of 2014 and if/how they carry into 2015...THEN maybe you can make that jump... But definitely not only off of the first 9 months of last year.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Ghisallo