Yoda's final words... Question for SW Canon Ph.D.'s

[gsummers]

So this is something I have wondered about for a while. Granted my experience in Star Wars is basically the movies, the Thrawn trilogy, a couple other random books (e.g. Rogue Squadron stuff), KOTOR and SWTOR.

 

In his last talk with Luke, Yoda tells Luke that when he dies, Luke will be the last of the Jedi. To me, being the "last of the Jedi" means being the only other one in the galaxy who is trained in lightsaber use and force techniques and not using them for dark side stuff. Thus my expectation is that sometime between Star Wars Rebels and Return of the Jedi, Ahsoka, Ezra, and the other Jedi they may or may not come up at some point in that show will all perish.

 

True?

[jovianus]

That was clearly what Yoda meant, and therefore should be true.

 

Hopefully Disney lets it stand rather than trying to cash in by having a gaggle of random *** Jedi who were totally around the whole time and just....on vacation during the OT.

[MadDutchman]

probably true, but I SERIOUSLY doubt they'll kill off Ezra.

 

Kanan, sure, Ahsoka, maybe, but killing the main child protagonist in a kids TV show is highly unlikely.

 

More likely they'll find some excuse for them to not be around (and Yoda thinking they're dead)

 

See the SW rebels finale discussion for further details.

[DarthDymond]

To me, being the "last of the Jedi" means being the only other one in the galaxy who is trained in lightsaber use and force techniques and not using them for dark side stuff.

At the time those lines were written and delivered, that was pretty clearly their meaning, and unless / until something in Canon shows up to contradict it, that is probably the best meaning to continue ascribing to them.

 

However, bear in mind that at the time the line "A young Jedi named Darth Vader [...] betrayed and murdered your father" was written and delivered in the original Star Wars, the intent was that it was a true account of what literally happened. Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker were two separate characters until a few drafts in to the script for Episode V.

 

Just as Episodes V and VI retroactively changed Obi-Wan's line about Vader and Anakin into a statement that was "true... from a certain point of view", it is entirely possible that some future work will give some 'new' meaning to Yoda's last words. (Or establish that he was just incorrect when he spoke them.)

Edited March 9, 2015 by DarthDymond

[tunewalker]

Some one does not need to be killed on the show for them to be dead by the time of RotJ, which is how I think it should be. Yes they might not kill the characters in star wars rebels, but that does not mean they arent dead. (though I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to see a dead Ahsoka.)

[fidothegran]

There are other Jedi who survived, Yoda just didn't know about them.

[psandak]

There are other Jedi who survived, Yoda just didn't know about them.

 

This.

 

Obi-wan and Yoda thought they were the last and exiled themselves to backwater planets as penance for their self-perceived hubris. They stayed hidden and all but sheltered from the galactic whole - not knowing what was really going on until Leia Organa sought Obi-wan's help.

 

Furthermore, some of the new "Jedi" we are seeing, may not be considered official Jedi. Asoka for example was still a padawan at the end of TCW series. Canaan's status is not really known either:

we learn in the season finale his master told him to run when Order 66 happened and he did, was he a Jedi Knight or a Padawan when that happened?

And Ezra is barely a learner, let alone a Padawan.

 

My argument does smell of sophistry, but it works

Edited March 9, 2015 by psandak

[Ghisallo]

So this is something I have wondered about for a while. Granted my experience in Star Wars is basically the movies, the Thrawn trilogy, a couple other random books (e.g. Rogue Squadron stuff), KOTOR and SWTOR.

 

In his last talk with Luke, Yoda tells Luke that when he dies, Luke will be the last of the Jedi. To me, being the "last of the Jedi" means being the only other one in the galaxy who is trained in lightsaber use and force techniques and not using them for dark side stuff. Thus my expectation is that sometime between Star Wars Rebels and Return of the Jedi, Ahsoka, Ezra, and the other Jedi they may or may not come up at some point in that show will all perish.

 

True?

 

False he says he is the Last HOPE for the Jedi. Big difference.

[DarthDymond]

False he says he is the Last HOPE for the Jedi. Big difference.

IMDB quote: "Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Luke... Luke... do not... do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father's fate you will. Luke, when gone am I... the last of the Jedi will you be. Luke, the Force runs strong in your family. Pass on what you have learned, Luke. There is... another... Sky... walker."

 

Seems right: video clip

Edited March 9, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Ghisallo]

IMDB quote: "Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Luke... Luke... do not... do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father's fate you will. Luke, when gone am I... the last of the Jedi will you be. Luke, the Force runs strong in your family. Pass on what you have learned, Luke. There is... another... Sky... walker."

 

Seems right: video clip

 

First you missed the bit I noted about Jedi doing what he did. Hiding from all other force users so the Emperor could not track him down. He could not tell Palpatine was Sidious.... he found a place he could hide from Sidious. No one else could find a hiding place? It wasn't because he was 2.5 feet tall he could hide. ;-)

 

AND we have the contradictory statement of the "private conversation between Yoda and ben's ghost."

 

Obi-Wan: "That boy is our last hope."

 

Not "he is the last..." period.

 

I guess in the end my main issue is with George Lucas himself.... You have to remember when looking at any of this stuff that much was made up by Lucas as he went along. Until RotJ Anakin and Vader were two separate people, Vader's Empire line was a lie (fact Lucas made it a "truth" after a child psychologist told him making it a lie would be bad for kids") Originally Leia and Padme together fled to Aledraan. In episode three he decides that Padme died in child birth and then issues another "remastered" edition of RotJ to change the original story.

 

When dealing with Lucas you can't just look at one episode or the latest episode because he changed crap as he went along. Instead you have to look at them all and then dance around the indecision and changes of mind of Lucas. That damn "it all depends on your point of view speech" that he has Obi-Wan say in RotJ pretty much throws everything up in the air across the board.

 

if we are going to give George a pass on this bull junk for almost 30 years...I think we can give Disney a pass if the story is better (and I can't imagine it being any worse than the confused morass that George gave us.) I mean for goodness sake, George was even conscious of his screw ups. When he made a "remastered" edition he forbid the release of the earlier ones so people could not watch them side by side and say... "whaaaaa?"

 

(yes I am old enough to have seen even episode IV during it's initial theatrical release..)

 

basically, if I am honest, I find any "canon" conversation revolving around Star Wars to be a hysterical joke because there has NEVER been a true Canon. Lucas changed crap at whim and half the reason for the Holocron when it existed was so he could hide this fact.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Kaedusz]

Kanan, sure, Ahsoka, maybe, but killing the main child protagonist in a kids TV show is highly unlikely.

 

People were upset about Disney taking over and there you have it.They were right to be upset.

 

Vader should just kill everyone, Ashoka included and the blue haired noob should die in a horrible way.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Kaedusz

[ejbsuperbat]

 

Vader should just kill everyone, Ashoka included and the blue haired noob should die in a horrible way.

 

I agree! I really hate Ezra, actually I hate every rebel! GO VADER! Lord Vader, Tarkin, and kallus Sould storm the ghost and kill 'em all! Let's hope one (probably Ezra) gets away in an escape pod but the TIE s kill him!

[PSVEindhoven]

People were upset about Disney taking over and there you have it.They were right to be upset.

 

Vader should just kill everyone, Ashoka included and the blue haired noob should die in a horrible way.

 

I agree! I really hate Ezra, actually I hate every rebel! GO VADER! Lord Vader, Tarkin, and kallus Sould storm the ghost and kill 'em all! Let's hope one (probably Ezra) gets away in an escape pod but the TIE s kill him!

 

YES!!! You guys know how it's done!!! :rak_03:

[gsummers]

Maybe in the end, canon is whatever you want it to be. If you believe it makes sense that all light-side trained force users were dead except for Luke in Return of the Jedi, then they were. If you believe that Ahsoka and Ezra slipped through unnoticed and were actually the ones who killed the Emperor by sneaking on board the Death Star II and using the force to manipulate Vader to pick Sidious up and through him down the spire... then it is so.

 

On a related note, what does it mean to actually be a Jedi? For me, being a Jedi meant that you could use the force and you were trained in it. But is being a Jedi more like a job? So I can use the force, that makes joining the Jedi Order just one possible career path for me? But if I leave the Order, am I no longer a Jedi? Its not like I suddenly can't use the force anymore, or wield a lightsaber anymore. Is it just I can't do it with state-sanctioned approval anymore? So when Sidious wanted to destroy the Jedi, was it really just the organizational structure he wanted to destroy, or did he want to destroy all light-side force users?

 

Or maybe I am just over-thinking this and I need to sit back, turn off my brain, and just enjoy the "pew-pew, zzzzhroom-zzzhroom, Wwwwwwraaaarrr":cool:

[FenraelWolfmien]

Yeah sure, in a galaxy-wide empire of tens of thousands of races and a number of sapient entities that probably gets somewhere near Grahms number, it's totally plausible to assume Yoda was a god with such an intimate connection to the force that he was aware of every birth and death of every force sensitive being across 100,000+ light years of space.

 

If he was then he was just like every other omniscient entity, a riddle-spewing ******** determined to leave everyone as confused as possible.

 

Maybe *Yoda* is the real villain here.

[Ghisallo]

People were upset about Disney taking over and there you have it.They were right to be upset.

 

Vader should just kill everyone, Ashoka included and the blue haired noob should die in a horrible way.

 

What kills me is this....by the time of the new movie he ain't a kid.

 

What I LOVE however is what is implicit in you statement the complete ignorance of how Lucas could give a damn about his own "canon"...forget about EU Canon. here is the short list of retcon's he has done in between his own movies.

 

1. Anakin Skywalker and Vader were originally 2 different people. The speech on Bespin a lie. Vader does not become Anakin until the initial Script of RotJ after Lucas talks to a child psychologist who tells him someone lying by saying "I am your father" would be bad for kids.

 

2. Originally Lucas said the force is "like yoga ... everybody can do it. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing." Then in Episode 1 we get the midi-chlorians that should not be.

 

3. In the original RotJ Leia remembers their mother because while Ben took Luke to Tatooine, Padme and Leia BOTH went into hiding on Alderaan. This gets changed when he actually writes the screenplays for the prequels.

 

To justify this one he even went so far a to do yet ANOTHER remastered edition of RotJ and again forbade the production of new copies of the original trilogy.

 

4. Lucas described Yoda as "a guru; he doesn't go out and fight anybody." Then in Attack of the Clones he is all monkey style kung fu.

 

5. From the original screenplay... Yes Han shot first. here is what it says

 

Suddenly the slimy alien disappears in a blinding flash of light. Han pulls his smoking gun from beneath the table as the other patron look on in bemused amazement. Han gets up and starts out of the cantina, flipping the bartender some coins as he leaves.

 

BUT Lucas again gets concerned by advice of how it could be harmful to kids that Han looks like a cold blooded killer and... he remasters it and whammo.... Gredo...a skilled bounty hunter misses a target at point blank range. The blaster bolt takes a 45 degree angle from the barrel to make it work /facepalm.

 

6. Jabba the Hutt was originally a human https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Sf4eb9l__4. Now this never made the theatrical release BUT according to the canon rules it was G-Canon (cut scenes were considered canon unless later contradicted). It did become contradict... again through a craptastic "remastered edition."

 

So yeah... NO ONE can be more fast and loose with SW Canon that Lucas was UNLESS Mickey Mouse actually makes an appearance... sorry.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Kaedusz]

snip

 

Well all those little cute younglings in the episode in which they get crystals on Ilum eventually get killed so there is no valid reason why Luke shouldn't remain the only active Jedi during the time Yoda says his piece.

 

So the ''harmful to kids'' thing in this capacity is already crossed.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Kaedusz

[Ghisallo]

Well all those little cute younglings in the episode in which they get crystals on Ilum eventually get killed so there is no valid reason why Luke shouldn't remain the only active Jedi during the time Yoda says his piece.

 

So the ''harmful to kids'' thing in this capacity is already crossed.

 

But you never saw it. In the instance with Vader lying... the kids would see it in total, same with the "Han shoots" thing so really this is a strawman argument on your part.

 

And I like how you avoided my entire point btw classy.

[Kaedusz]

I like how you avoided my entire point

 

which is?

If you are saying that you don't need Disney to screw things up , cus you already have Lucas, that's immaterial.

In all cases,the chance of the blue haired weasel surviving rises ,because of Disney being Disney.

 

Not to mention that my post was more directed vs the blue haired critter in general,not vs Disney.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Kaedusz

[t-darko]

Well for this discussion to have any merit we need to disregard that the movies were written somewhat 30-35 years apart, having done that we need establish a few things;

 

1) Are we discussing word said out as of a literally word by word meaning as we all had Asperger and got no ability for abstract reasoning or is it a discussion on how we should interpret word like 'Hope', 'Last' and 'Jedi' as to what meaning Yoda, in any given context might have attached to them. The latter is really hard to do if you're standpoint is the earlier!!!

 

2) Is a cathedral or the pyramids for that matter, marvels of architecture or just simple another house were one brick is put upon another brick?

 

As for Old Georges messing everything up, he had made it unboundedly clear that for him the story ended with E 6 and started with E 1. And by now it must be shown without a doubt, for everyone, that for him as the creator of that story, that story was a work in progress and not a final product. Do I like it? NO, I still think Han shoot first!!!

 

My point of view? Well, to me it's pretty obvious that what we witness isn't just the last years of the Golden Ages for the Republic, but the last years of the Golden Ages of the Jedi; it is pointed out through the OT and especially through the PT and TCW how the Jedi are beginning to lose connection to the force and that their abilities are diminishing, so 20 odd years after the fact Yoda is supposed to have a greater connection to the Force and other Jedi(Syfo-Dyas), then when the Order and the Republic was destroyed!!?? Com'on . . . and I admit that Yoda in the Temple on Lothal was a bit over enthusiastic and inconsistent by the writers but, how was it about those cathedrals and Pyramids?

Edited March 11, 2015 by t-darko

[Gentleman_snow]

I also wouldn't put it past Yoda to flat out lie about being last of the Jedi, either. He didn't want to train Luke any more than his father, and he had an eye on what he could turn into. If he lied to Luke about other Jedi, then if Luke did fall, he'd not go looking for survivors he already thought to be extinct thanks to the words of the last master.

[Sanguiluna]

Don't forget about Quinlan Vos; he survived Order 66, and we never actually saw him die, in either canon. So assuming he survives all the way until RotJ, he is living contradiction of Yoda's last words.

 

And Kanan and Ezra technically aren't Jedi; Kanan was a Padawan when the Purge happened, making Ezra the apprentice of a Padawan, so obviously not Jedi.

[xeNNNNN]

At the time those lines were written and delivered, that was pretty clearly their meaning, and unless / until something in Canon shows up to contradict it, that is probably the best meaning to continue ascribing to them.

 

However, bear in mind that at the time the line "A young Jedi named Darth Vader [...] betrayed and murdered your father" was written and delivered in the original Star Wars, the intent was that it was a true account of what literally happened. Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker were two separate characters until a few drafts in to the script for Episode V.

 

Just as Episodes V and VI retroactively changed Obi-Wan's line about Vader and Anakin into a statement that was "true... from a certain point of view", it is entirely possible that some future work will give some 'new' meaning to Yoda's last words. (Or establish that he was just incorrect when he spoke them.)

 

 

Id argue that what obi-wan said in IV is still the exact same in V and VI because in essence thats exactly what happened if you look at all 6 movies. but had IV been the only movie then I would agree but frankly I do think lucas intended the story to be like that at least IV, V & VI

 

Anakin was seperate you can tell simply by how drastically he changed when palpatine said he will from now on be called darth vader.

 

its only in the prequels where it stopped being "a certain point of view" because anakin and Vader became separate through their personalities, anakin is young and emotionally driven, Vader is still the same in that regard but no longer shackled by his "jedi" teachings (when he starts following sidious thats when he ceases to be anakin and becomes darth vader; persona split) and will do anything so long as padame lives and then when padame dies he gives in realising its his only way forward as the only other choice would be to die.

 

In essence vader was always going to be his alter ego.

Edited March 14, 2015 by xeNNNNN

[xeNNNNN]

Don't forget about Quinlan Vos; he survived Order 66, and we never actually saw him die, in either canon. So assuming he survives all the way until RotJ, he is living contradiction of Yoda's last words.

 

And Kanan and Ezra technically aren't Jedi; Kanan was a Padawan when the Purge happened, making Ezra the apprentice of a Padawan, so obviously not Jedi.

 

Lol its not like there was/is anyone around that he knew of that could continue his training.

 

I think though if you look at how the lore is set out throughout the entire SW universe id say it takes more than the approval of a master to become a jedi knight.

[Ghisallo]

Id argue that what obi-wan said in IV is still the exact same in V and VI because in essence thats exactly what happened if you look at all 6 movies. but had IV been the only movie then I would agree but frankly I do think lucas intended the story to be like that at least IV, V & VI

 

Anakin was seperate you can tell simply by how drastically he changed when palpatine said he will from now on be called darth vader.

 

its only in the prequels where it stopped being "a certain point of view" because anakin and Vader became separate through their personalities, anakin is young and emotionally driven, Vader is still the same in that regard but no longer shackled by his "jedi" teachings (when he starts following sidious thats when he ceases to be anakin and becomes darth vader; persona split) and will do anything so long as padame lives and then when padame dies he gives in realising its his only way forward as the only other choice would be to die.

 

In essence vader was always going to be his alter ego.

 

 

Straight up fact... Anakin and Vader were separate characters.... even on Bespin the idea was that "Luke I am your father thing" was supposed to be uncertain. In the first movie the intent was to have them as two different characters.

 

In the 2nd movie it was supposed to be a question for luke. Basically "is he my father? Is he lying?" etc. However while preparing the original story for RotJ Lucas spoke with a Child Psychologist who said that it could/would be harmful for children to have this as an unresolved question and/or beliveve someone was lying about fatherhood. So he felt he had to resolve it and chose to resolve it in the way we know today. Heck originally Yoda was not to be in the movie nor were their scenes on Dagoba to bring us the PAINFUL "point of view speech" by Obi Wan to rationalize it all.

 

There are SO MANY things that we get beaten over the head with because Lucas had one story in mind when he wrote one Episode then changed his mind 1 or 2 episodes later.