How not to chase a GS...

[Bolo_Yeung]

IMO comparing GS and Scout in a 1v1 situation is pointless. Even if the GS is better than the Scout in this situation, you are not taking into account that the scout has better overall DPS and has easier access to DO and other pickups. Also, I think the Scout has more use in Domination than GS. I mean, the GS can be very useful with ion railgun AoE, but he is also probably the worst ship at staying on a node. And that can mean a lot.

 

in domination bombers on onde + 4 covering (and capable) gunships between nodes aren't as bad. - and AoE ion rail is the second weapon to clear bombernest of the mines... though I agree than in Domination scoutsdo a little better. Assuming of course someone can shoot an EMP missile on bomber nests ... (more likely on JC than Progen/RE).

Edited February 27, 2015 by Bolo_Yeung

[Lendul]

I happen to have an almost but not quite mastered Flashfire on republic side on Progenitor and one a little over halfway requed up on Jedi covenant empire side. I'd love to take you up on this, could you tell me which of these servers you have the best Gunship on to oppose them and we can setup a time to queue against each other?

And the people's champion has thrown down the gauntlet.

[Bolo_Yeung]

And gauntlet was picked.... but no response from Drakolich atm.

[Fractalsponge]

1v1, no outside intervention? Approximately equal talent? Gunship loses. Eventually. Maybe some freak successes if the scout pilot derps. Takes longer with T3.

 

The best gunship might make it so long and painful that it's not worth the scout's time, but this is a stupidly obvious scenario with basically the same result the vast majority of the time: draw or dead loss for the gunship.

[Drakkolich]

Oh sorry, it's house of cards release day I've been busy. I have company over all day today Bolo so I can't today. With it being Super Serious day tomorrow I'll be pretty busy.

 

Could we do say Sunday on Progenitor at 4pm EST which is 9pm Gmt?

 

I'll be streaming so that you can see when I queue up and queue at the same time, if this time doesn't work for you feel free to suggest another.

[Bolo_Yeung]

Oh sorry, it's house of cards release day I've been busy. I have company over all day today Bolo so I can't today. With it being Super Serious day tomorrow I'll be pretty busy.

 

Could we do say Sunday on Progenitor at 4pm EST which is 9pm Gmt?

 

Sure, guess you need to prepare (just kidding)

The time is OK for me.

 

Also, would like to see a reply from Yojiro as well.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Bolo_Yeung

[RatPoison]

In short you say that you're *far* better than me - well, Possible... However, I am feeling the same way when facing a scout in GS myself - and when we met, we can try scout vs scout, or your scout vs my gunship to reverse roles.

...

Didn't you just do it?

 

You said as much yourself earlier in the thread. Do we really need to play coy? So no... I've no intention to insult your current skill level or poke at you, I am simply pointing out a matter of fact that you yourself already identified/inferred. If you're offended, I can't exactly help you there.

 

The truth is, all that time I spent goofing around with you... I would have not been afforded that opportunity against a player like Keenz. I would have simply been dead.

 

So, rather than deflect from the point being made, lets just be done with it. You are trying to make this argument using yourself as the prototypical scout pilot flying against an atypical gunship pilot. This is not a litmus test for "all things equal". Far from it. And despite my goofing around, when **** got serious I still had to use all cooldowns, in game buffs, and stack as many things in my favor just to try my luck at hitting you.

 

If you can't extrapolate that much out of the experience, then so be it.

 

I appreciate the entertainment, and the flying and welcome you to keep at it.

Edited February 27, 2015 by RatPoison

[Ramalina]

The only serious answer I got for my question (why aren't there swarms of scouts countering GS walls?) was something that generally was close to my own opinion. People who contradicted this were saying something like 'nah, scouts will own gunships without voip') or 'you just plain suck' etc. That speaks something about them.... but that's a different story.

 

Uh, you're not talking about my reply are you? If you are, I have to quote Senor Montoya and say, "I do not think that means what you think it means."

 

I doubt my opinion is close to your opinion.

 

You seem to be implying that people should rally around the, "Gunships are brokenly OP in the Meta," banner. It has been a long time and several heavy gunship nerfs since the last time I was inclined to wave that sucker around.

 

Gunships, in any amount, are merely annoying. Doesn't matter what ship you're flying, still merely annoying. Failing to pressure the good ones can be a disaster, but it's a matter of poor judgment on the part of the team letting them get away with it, not a problem with the game mechanics of the gunship. Failing to pressure known aces no matter what ship they fly is generally a disaster, it's not exclusive to gunships. It's a lot easier to pressure an ace in a gunship than it is to pressure an ace in a scout.

 

Changes I think address significant unresolved balance issues in GSF are: missile/missile defense balance, minor reduction of scout burst damage, modest buffs to base strike stats, and possibly reducing the time needed to kill bombers a bit or maybe just make it so that they don't stack quite so well. Bombers are sort of a borderline concern in terms of durability. I do seriously dislike stacks of more than 3 railgun drones. They're perhaps a little too effective at farming noobs, and even for a veteran pilot a T1 gunship with Ion AOE becomes almost mandatory for dealing with them efficiently if there's not a high degree of coordination going on. Not game-breaking perhaps but definitely on the very cheesy side (for Verain's sake I have to admit that at a certain level of frustration I do hop on a T1 gunship and play at being the ION AVENGER which is kind of cool in some ways, but I still tend to get pissed off if I feel like I'm being almost forced to fly a particular ship).

 

If you take a close look at that list, reducing the power of gunships in isolation or as part of the meta does not show up at all. They're just not in a bad place at the moment from a balance perspective, unless you count the T2 gunship which could definitely use a mild to moderate buff.

 

 

If you're not just on an anti-gunship crusade you should probably spell that out more clearly.

 

In terms of degenerate meta balance from certain builds of ships stacking too well, you're not going to get as much push-back from the community. We're all aware that at various times battlescouts, T1 gunships, and SIM bombers have produced stacking problems in the past. Right now minelayers, dronecarriers, and T1 gunships still lend themselves to stacking in some cases, but it's not bad by GSF historical standards.

 

Part of the meta balance problem may be that there seems to be a steady stream of new GSF players who are sticking around long enough to get very, very farmed by more experienced pilots. It's a potentially very good problem to have. The solution, other than some fairly small scale balance adjustments, is mostly in teaching new players how to handle the mechanics and encouraging a greater level of communication and teamwork while playing, even during PUG games.

 

Until there's a tutorial that doesn't completely suck, that's pretty much up to us.

[Bolo_Yeung]

Uh, you're not talking about my reply are you? If you are, I have to quote Senor Montoya and say, "I do not think that means what you think it means."

 

I doubt my opinion is close to your opinion.

Actually, it is pretty close - I was always saying that a voip premade of ace scouts win with a voip premade of ace gunships. However, without voip the odds are shifting into gunships' favor,...

so 8 scout team is not a 'hard counter' for 8 gunships, not even comparable to 4 bombers + 4 gunships against the same team of 8 scouts.

If I understood correctly, you said something along the line... was I wrong?

 

 

You seem to be implying that people should rally around the, "Gunships are brokenly OP in the Meta," banner. It has been a long time and several heavy gunship nerfs since the last time I was inclined to wave that sucker around.

 

I am just saying that in typical match gunships are NOT 'scout fodder' as some people seem to imply. For me, T1 gunships hold the title of 'the most OP ship', followed by T3 one tied with T2 scout. However, 'most OP' does not mean 'brokenly OP'.

I can live with it, when facing GS wall, just hopping into my own GS. Sure, it is a turn based strategy and kills most of the fun - but some remains.

Just rubbing the fact in the face of all GS pilots complaining that the scouts won't be one shotted easily like the pilots are used to.

 

Gunships, in any amount, are merely annoying. Doesn't matter what ship you're flying, still merely annoying. Failing to pressure the good ones can be a disaster, but it's a matter of poor judgment on the part of the team letting them get away with it, not a problem with the game mechanics of the gunship.

Again - matter of the team. I am saying about typical situations in a match where voip premades aren't totally common.

 

Failing to pressure known aces no matter what ship they fly is generally a disaster, it's not exclusive to gunships. It's a lot easier to pressure an ace in a gunship than it is to pressure an ace in a scout.

I respectfully disagree. With a deathball tactic (of GS wall) pressed ace will just withdraw a little . Following scout will be pulverized, since he gets into fring range of the other GS in area.

Sure, coordinated strike of capable pilotswill have a good chance. In typical match it won't be possible though

 

If you take a close look at that list, reducing the power of gunships in isolation or as part of the meta does not show up at all. They're just not in a bad place at the moment from a balance perspective, unless you count the T2 gunship which could definitely use a mild to moderate buff.

If you're not just on an anti-gunship crusade you should probably spell that out more clearly.[/quote}

 

To be clear: the only aspect I'd like to nerf on gunships now is ion rail - should apply debuffs ONLY on full charge.

 

In terms of degenerate meta balance from certain builds of ships stacking too well, you're not going to get as much push-back from the community. We're all aware that at various times battlescouts, T1 gunships, and SIM bombers have produced stacking problems in the past. Right now minelayers, dronecarriers, and T1 gunships still lend themselves to stacking in some cases, but it's not bad by GSF historical standards.

 

But still they are stacking too well compared to scouts or strikes.

 

Y I've no intention to insult your current skill level or poke at you, I am simply pointing out a matter of fact that you yourself already identified/inferred. If you're offended, I can't exactly help you there.

 

Well, I thought the emote ' ' will show that I am not serious... guess I was wrong.

So, to be plain, I wasn't serious.

 

About skill levels - last match we met (45:46, so I guess the teams were pretty even) I had 14/18/7 against your 16/10/2 (I was flying GS though most of the time... after first 1 kill and 1 deatch with scout) Consdering the fact that you weren't so pressed, got, if I recall, 3X DO against my one - I guess the skill gap, while exists, is not as high as some people are saying.)

 

1v1, no outside intervention? Approximately equal talent? Gunship loses. Eventually. Maybe some freak successes if the scout pilot derps. Takes longer with T3.

 

The best gunship might make it so long and painful that it's not worth the scout's time, but this is a stupidly obvious scenario with basically the same result the vast majority of the time: draw or dead loss for the gunship.

 

Exactly. But again it is the *worst* scenario for the gunship. And the other?

GS scoring first hit (ion rail...)

Chance of teammate intervention is much greater when the teammate is in GS - scout has to move, strike too,

 

I want just to prove that I can survive long enough against a scout chasing me - and possibly score some chance hits against other ships.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Bolo_Yeung

[RatPoison]

About skill levels - last match we met, I had 14/18/7 against your 16/10/2 (I was flying GS though most of the time... after first 1 kill and 1 deatch with scout) Consdering the fact that you weren't so pressed, got, if I recall, 3X DO against my one - I guess the skill gap, while exists, is not as high as some people are saying.)

 

Case and point right here with this all silly commentary and your perspective of GSF.

 

What's the point of a TDM? To get as high as possible KDR. My 8 to 1 to your 2 to 1... my... we were so close in this so very large sampling of performances.

 

And while I don't remember the final score of that match and whether or not it was one I stopped participating in because it went lopsided, I do know my team won and that you had at least one buddy flying with you. Regardless, I'm not here to impress you. So... don't get your hopes up that I'm gonna whip my man parts out to compare it to yours, neither to show off or to satiate curiosity.

 

Again, thanks for posting the vid, despite the matches outcome, I had fun leading you around, and encourage your continued improvement.

 

With that, I'm going to wash my hands of this thread and leave you all to it.

Edited February 28, 2015 by RatPoison

[Bolo_Yeung]

Case and point right here with this all silly commentary and your perspective of GSF.

 

What's the point of a TDM? To get as high as possible KDR. My 8 to 1 to your 2 to 1... my... we were so close.

 

No, keeping high KDR alone is only a means of improving self-esteem by posting another entry into record threads. With 1-2 kills and 0 deaths your KDR is infinite. But will you help the team with winning the match?... Hint: this 2:0 situation happened in the match where our chase video was taken.

 

The point of TDM is to help team *win* That means:

- getting more kills than deaths,

- helping others to score kills, preventing their deaths.

 

I had roughly the same damage (despite less DO taken), more assists

 

And while I don't remember the final score of that match and whether or not it was one I stopped participating in because it went lopsided, I do know my team won and that you had at least one

buddy flying with you.

So you can stop participating in last mintes with your team losing? (your team had pretty much luck in last seconds). Actually, you were running from me in last seconds before I was chased away by your buddy.

 

Regardless, I'm not here to impress you.

"No... I am just saying I am far better and thats it, this wasn't to impress you"

 

So... don't get your hopes up that I'm gonna whip my man parts out to compare it to yours, neither to show off or to satiate curiosity.

Well, I was certain that is about piloting skills, not bodyparts size... did I miss something?

 

With that, I'm gonna wash my hands of this thread and leave you all to it.

 

Again, thanks for posting the vid, despite the matches outcome, I had fun leading you around, and encourage your continued improvement.

 

See you :)Watch your KDR

Edited February 28, 2015 by Bolo_Yeung

[RickDagles]

.

It's a lot easier to pressure an ace in a gunship than it is to pressure an ace in a scout.

It's also a lot easier to pressure a GS ace by using a GS yourself. By far the quickest, easiest, and safest way to deal 2400 damage (crit) with lots of hull damage.

 

.

Changes I think address significant unresolved balance issues in GSF are: minor reduction of scout burst damage, and possibly reducing the time needed to kill bombers a bit

 

The Quad/Pod Scout and HLC/freq capacitor Strike can kill bombers in 2-3 seconds. And a GS merely needs to land one ion railgun shot and it's all over for the poor sitting duck.

 

I still haven't heard a good reason why scout burst damage needs to be nerfed.

 

 

What about ion railgun rendering T1/T2 Strike useless ships?

What about railgun sentry drones ignoring all evasion?

Edited February 28, 2015 by RickDagles

[ALaggyGrunt]

You don't have to shoot the GS to pressure it. Killing it is nice, but not allowing it a clean shot is almost as good.

 

If it's trying to turn to track your striker to try to take it out (most of the good ones will be correctly confident that they can take out an eager striker at any range), it's not sniping. Just decline the head-on pass: you'll lose unless you're running retros and know how to use them. Your missiles won't be able to deal with distortion field, and your guns aren't going to win, either: it will be turned around and charged before you're turned around, or it will have BLC to your LLC/RFL. If it foolishly decides you aren't a threat (i.e. you exclusively used rapids playing with it), you get your targeting solution of choice and just unload on it.

 

Of course, a scout is better at that, because it can win the turning fight with BLC/DF and thruster components of its own, which is why the GS in that video didn't try to get into a lethal turning match. He knew he'd lose it.

Edited February 28, 2015 by ALaggyGrunt

[Yojiro]

Also, would like to see a reply from Yojiro as well.

 

Oh it doesn't matter to me. I know your names now. I will come for your little Gunships like the White Death.

[Buggleslor]

HEY bioware is handing out free weeklong subs so I can post again for a week, aren't you all lucky.

 

Man, the dick-waving in this thread is intense. It's only made worse by Ol' Challintra (you're blueghost3 now, eh?) declaring that he can't kill t1 gunships and so they're OP. Of course, he ignores that, as shown in the video, even a t2 scout pilot who is totally incapable of landing a single BLC in massive windows of opportunity and has to rely on cluster spam can completely shut down a t1 gunship's offensive output for minutes.

 

I've been holding forth about this in the JC impside GSF channel for a while, but any discussion of player skill in this game is always mired in either false modesty or completely unfounded epeen expansion. It also frequently includes a ton of talking past each other.

 

There are many of "stomp aces" who can put up huge numbers eating food but wither totally when faced with an even fight. There are many who play t1 gunship and can put the blue dot on the red dot and thus get 20 kills in TDMs, but can't for the life of them figure out they should do something beyond throwing up feedback shield and sitting put when they're being hit by TT-empowered blcs and pods for the fifth time this game. There are many who play t2 scout and think that the fact that they can land double-volley clusters again and again on people who don't know how to use missile breaks or evade makes them uber leet haxxor. They're also masters of confirmation bias; any game they did well is saved for posterity and their ego, games where they were shut down probably had a premade on VOIP or whatever (even if it was one guy ******** on them), so there's nothing to be done. They can also trawl through their extensive collection of epeen-boosting screenshots to find one where their scores were nominally higher than someone else who regularly ***** on them for whatever reason (taking it easy, unbalanced game, off-day, you know--all the excuses the stompace uses to disregard the non-screenshotted games they did poorly in). I have a screenshot of a game where I had more kills, higher damage, higher hit% than scrabs when he was playing impside (it was a 50-1 TDM), and another where he was pubside and 4 of us (not on voip, just agreement in typey chat) basically spent the entire game focusing him and held him to 0 kills (the rest of his team was bad enough to lose 4v7). Am I a better pilot than scrabs? The stompace might be stupid enough to say yes, but I am not.

 

BTW, Chall/blueghost3, this is where I see you, and that's how I regard your "proof" that you're anywhere near Saevius' level.

 

You also have your hipster aces, who refuse to fly OP ships but pride themselves on being "better flyers" than the folks using "FotM" (in this the longest month in the history of forever) because they fly strikes or whatever. Their scores and winrates are generally very low, but the fact that they've handicapped themselves means that any bad result can be immediately excused. A loss is expected, a win is proof that they're amazing. Their assertions are founded in some reality by the fact that they can indeed 1v1 the stomp aces.

 

Then you have a small contingent of KDA aces, especially on JC, who think their pristine 0 deaths is the single most important number in the game. They'll either fly t1 GS or t2 Scout and will act like stomp aces, with the corollary that they will pop barrel roll and engine recharge back to spawn if any name they recognize so much as targets them. They'll also get req on their bombers by planting miles away from any conceivable objective or contested territory. Their teams lose a lot, but isn't that really their team's fault?

 

All of these people consider themselves aces and will easily look down their noses at anyone who doesn't follow the rules they've set down to define how amazing they are. Maybe they're actually good, maybe they're not. Who knows? I say this because the simple fact that all of us spend 80% or more of our flying time killing people who can't play the game makes us completely incapable of evaluating our relative skills (at least in cases where it's not blindingly obvious, like Scrabs or Drakko teabagging everyone or Saevius vs Chall/bg3). Which do you evaluate; who can eat food faster, or who can win in a 1v1? How can winrates be meaningful when you regularly have 3-4 members of any given team with under 5% hit rate? How can KDA be meaningful when you can avoid any real challengers and still pick off 4-5 kills on food?

 

That's why I'm looking forward so much to Super Serious Soloq tonight--finally I will learn how bad I really am.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Buggleslor

[Bolo_Yeung]

*Yawn* did you read the topic a little? If so, when did I stated that 'I cant hit T1 GS thus they are OPed'?...

So to be crystal clear, so *everyone* can understand :

T1 GS is NOT an unhittable target. In straight dogfight it will fare worse than T2 scout. However, he can evade pretty well and can also score few chance hits after BRing away.

And the disadvantage of the scout in question, after getting ion rail hit, is much greater (sitting duck... with maybe powerdive or booster recharge, but booster recharge will rule out TT - thus making it less deadly).

 

Of course, against a specialized GS hunter scout (and it will be pretty much underpowered in any other fight) it will fare much worse (still, good GS pilot will survive for a long while).

 

There are many of "stomp aces" who can put up huge numbers eating food but wither totally when faced with an even fight.

/agreed

 

There are many who play t1 gunship and can put the blue dot on the red dot and thus get 20 kills in TDMs, but can't for the life of them figure out they should do something beyond throwing up feedback shield and sitting put when they're being hit by TT-empowered blcs and pods for the fifth time this game.

And they often are saying about the 'most OP ship' because it won't die when 'aces' are shooting, but dares to strike back.

 

There are many who play t2 scout and think that the fact that they can land double-volley clusters again and again on people who don't know how to use missile breaks or evade makes them uber leet haxxor. They're also masters of confirmation bias; any game they did well is saved for posterity and their ego, games where they were shut down probably had a premade on VOIP or whatever (even if it was one guy ******** on them), so there's nothing to be done.

/agreed again. I personally dislike people saying 'gg' after 1000:1digit wins or 50:2-3

 

They can also trawl through their extensive collection of epeen-boosting screenshots to find one where their scores were nominally higher than someone else who regularly ***** on them for whatever reason (taking it easy, unbalanced game, off-day, you know--all the excuses the stompace uses to disregard the non-screenshotted games they did poorly in). I have a screenshot of a game where I had more kills, higher damage, higher hit% than scrabs when he was playing impside (it was a 50-1 TDM)

Yep quite funny, however sometimes I can't help bur compare. Guess it is instinctional behavior. I like though to compare even games (like that 45:46 I mentioned earlier)

 

, and another where he was pubside and 4 of us (not on voip, just agreement in typey chat) basically spent the entire game focusing him and held him to 0 kills (the rest of his team was bad enough to lose 4v7). Am I a better pilot than scrabs? The stompace might be stupid enough to say yes, but I am not.

 

BTW, Chall/blueghost3, this is where I see you, and that's how I regard your "proof" that you're anywhere near Saevius' level.

Lol why? Because I dared to compare myself to him in a pretty even match? It wasn't just 'Saevius vs our team'... teams were pretty even then

 

 

Then you have a small contingent of KDA aces, especially on JC, who think their pristine 0 deaths is the single most important number in the game. They'll either fly t1 GS or t2 Scout and will act like stomp aces, with the corollary that they will pop barrel roll and engine recharge back to spawn if any name they recognize so much as targets them.

Exactly.

Even the best sometimes are tempted by that way of thinking:

What's the point of a TDM? To get as high as possible KDR. My 8 to 1 to your 2 to 1... my... we were so close in this so very large sampling of performances.

And in that match where I did take a chase video, he just flied away for the rest of the match, ending with a pristine 2:0 score.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Bolo_Yeung

[Verain]

"No... I am just saying I am far better and thats it, this wasn't to impress you"

 

He is unquestionably better than you. He's not saying it to impress you.

 

At some point, the player skill needs to come up. Skill is multidimensional and therefore hard to analyze, and tied to ego, and therefore hard to discuss. But, it can be analyzed, and it can be discussed. Objectively, Saev is better than you at GSF, and by a reasonable amount. That seems to be relevant to the conversation, so, yes, it is true.

 

 

 

As for the rest of the thread- I'm very eager to see how this plays out now. And Bugglesor's text wall is absolutely a joy to read.

 

 

 

T1 GS is NOT an unhittable target. In straight dogfight it will fare worse than T2 scout.

 

It's much sillier than "fare worse". The gunship just can't get the scout to appear in front reliably. The gunship can barrel away, but the scout can barrel to chase, or just not even care about that- the extra breath granted by the scout class fixes that. The amount by which a battlescout beats a railsniper in a dogfight is huge, it's not a fight. Expecting a gunship to perform in melee is like expecting a scout to perform at range.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Verain

[Bolo_Yeung]

He is unquestionably better than you. He's not saying it to impress you.

Is he better? I think yes. Is he *far* better? maybe, however I am not bad,

But if he wasn't 'trying to impress' why did he typed it?... Nearly everyone GS pilot in this thread said so, I didnt contradict it (yes, he is better than me... but I won't be rotflstomped by him easily).

 

At some point, the player skill needs to come up. Skill is multidimensional and therefore hard to analyze, and tied to ego, and therefore hard to discuss. But, it can be analyzed, and it can be discussed. Objectively, Saev is better than you at GSF, and by a reasonable amount. That seems to be relevant to the conversation, so, yes, it is true.

Again, I didn't contradict it, so why did he need to state it yet again, joining his fellow admirers?

 

As for the rest of the thread- I'm very eager to see how this plays out now. And Bugglesor's text wall is absolutely a joy to read.

 

Yes. Guess you like when someone unloads at someone you don't like. However, Bugglesor (possibly not intentionally) pinched Saevius as well (KDR aces, regarding Saevvius' previous words about whats important in TDM).

So I found it just as funny

 

 

It's much sillier than "fare worse". The gunship just can't get the scout to appear in front reliably. The gunship can barrel away, but the scout can barrel to chase, or just not even care about that- the extra breath granted by the scout class fixes that.

OK. 'fare much worse' - are you satisfied?

 

Yes, In 1v1 scout wins 95% of the time (assuming mastered, equal - high - skill level). The key for GS wall is to shoot at *someone else* give friend a breath by crippling his attacker - then continue to run away. Sure, GS will die eventually...

... unless a friend in similar situation will cripple the scout. And GS with boost will beat a scout with no noost and no weapons in dogfight.

Scout can use a target of opportunity too. However, his range is far more limited... boosting to help a friend with 10 km range means the chjased GS will be able to place a shot.

 

All about teamplay. Thats why 1-2 GS aren't too OPed. 4+ are...

Edited February 28, 2015 by Bolo_Yeung

[Buggleslor]

*Yawn* did you read the topic a little? If so, when did I stated that 'I cant hit T1 GS thus they are OPed'?...

So to be crystal clear, so *everyone* can understand :

T1 GS is NOT an unhittable target. In straight dogfight it will fare worse than T2 scout. However, he can evade pretty well and can also score few chance hits after BRing away.

And the disadvantage of the scout in question, after getting ion rail hit, is much greater (sitting duck... with maybe powerdive or booster recharge, but booster recharge will rule out TT - thus making it less deadly).

 

Of course, against a specialized GS hunter scout (and it will be pretty much underpowered in any other fight) it will fare much worse (still, good GS pilot will survive for a long while).

 

*Yawn* did you not read my post a little? I've read through this topic way more than it deserves, and you've repeatedly maintained that t1 gunship (and, inexplicably considering its position of doing 2 things badly and nothing well, the t3) are unquestionably the best ships in the game. My argument is that none of us should listen to you because your comparisons are all founded on flawed data. The data is obtained by comparing the strengths of ships when one of them (the one you're attacking) is being used poorly 90% of the time, and the other one (the one you pilot) is being used poorly 100% of the time.

 

I agree the Mangler is definitely not unhittable, but what everyone and their mother has been saying (and you've managed to miss) is that a scout pilot of equal skill to the gs would have killed him in that situation long before the opportunity to BR. He has no allies hitting you with ions. He has no allies doing much of anything, really. You posted a video of yourself getting pantsed and are trying to make this about the ship classes. It never was.

 

Edit to add to your response: Well, moving goalposts extraordinaire, now we're talking about 4 scouts vs 4 gunships. If the 4 gunships are on voip to call targets, can't the 4 scouts be? In that case, can't they organize themselves so that each scout will be dedicated to chasing one of the gunships in the manner that your video shows even you can do? In that case, how can you possibly believe the gunships would win?

 

When you're solo with nothing but food on your team and the enemy has gunship walled, then going gunship yourself is unquestionably the best choice, since trying to chase a gs when there are 3 of his friends lining you up is stupidity incarnate (and even then, if the gunships aren't good enough to run immediately, you can get 2-3 kills per death on t2scout vs a gunship wall if you are capable of timing cooldowns and landing lasers on motionless targets). That's 4v1, though, and "xyz is not good enough to reliably win 4v1" is not really a convincing argument of weakness. At any scaleable level of equal skill and coordination, scouts counter gunships. Hard.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Buggleslor

[Bolo_Yeung]

*Yawn* did you not read my post a little? I've read through this topic way more than it deserves, and you've repeatedly maintained that t1 gunship (and, inexplicably considering its position of doing 2 things badly and nothing well, the t3) are unquestionably the best ships in the game

In *typical match* yes.

In 1v1 or 2v2 duels, not.

In 4v4 - there begins the dominance.

 

I agree the Mangler is definitely not unhittable, but what everyone and their mother has been saying (and you've managed to miss) is that a scout pilot of equal skill to the gs would have killed him in that situation long before the opportunity to BR. He has no allies hitting you with ions. He has no allies doing much of anything, really. You posted a video of yourself getting pantsed and are trying to make this about the ship classes. It never was.

While I agree that I *** up a little, most of the 'aces' on forums are saying something like 'scout will eat a GS'. This video shows that GS with good evasion skill can survive a little, even scoring a chance shots. If there were friends, shooting me with ion rail, it would end quickly. If someone would shoot the running GS - it would end quickly too. But in the probably worst 1v1 scenario the GS isnt just pulverized in 5 secidns like some people want to believe.

 

 

Edit to add to your response: Well, moving goalposts extraordinaire, now we're talking about 4 scouts vs 4 gunships. If the 4 gunships are on voip to call targets, can't the 4 scouts be? In that case, can't they organize themselves so that each scout will be dedicated to chasing one of the gunships in the manner that your video shows even you can do? In that case, how can you possibly believe the gunships would win?

first - If you'd really read the topic, you;d see that I told: VOIP scout premade (or people who are flying together for long time and can synchronize) will win. Without VOIP though coordination needed to choose targets would take more time,

However, in typical match scenario... there is no voip and not much coordination. In shooting random targets the GS wall will do better - simply because one hit means one ship crawling.

 

When you're solo with nothing but food on your team and the enemy has gunship walled, then going gunship yourself is unquestionably the best choice, since trying to chase a gs when there are 3 of his friends lining you up is stupidity incarnate (and even then, if the gunships aren't good enough to run immediately, you can get 2-3 kills per death on t2scout vs a gunship wall if you are capable of timing cooldowns and landing lasers on motionless targets).

I am saying about players of equal skills level, not 'only food'. Going GS vs GS is a best chance. Possibly with some bombers to give repair/shields replenishing.

 

At any scaleable level of equal skill and coordination, scouts counter gunships. Hard.

 

And this 'hard counter' is rarely seen on pub games level (assuming equal skills - T2 scout ace will surely break novice/intermediate GS wall, but same goes for GS ace)

... my, my... people are sooo stupid...

Edited February 28, 2015 by Bolo_Yeung

[Buggleslor]

My... my..... you've now put soooooo many qualifiers on your statements that they've been rendered almost meaningless. So in conclusion, we're all sooooo stupid for not immediately interpreting your blanket "t1 gunship is the best ship in the game, here's a video to prove it where one beats me despite me having them dead to rights" to mean "in certain rare and limited situations where there are four non-bads on each side but they're all perfectly organized in their ship choices but nobody is talking on voip and all the scouts have all the others on ignore so they can't even type "I'll chase xyz, you focus abc" in chat, t1 gunships can be preferable to t2 scouts. To prove this here's a video that does not show any of those situations in any way, shape or form." OK, you've finally moved the goalposts to a point where you can smugly claim victory because few can argue with your final statement. In doing so, though, you've sequentially abandoned pretty much every position you've held. Cheers, hope to see you at Super Srs tonight. Edited February 28, 2015 by Buggleslor

[NeverEvar]

Fun fact from Progenitor, for my 3,5k games I've seen maybe 10 high skill GS-walls.

 

Probably cause they are not very fun to be in, or to fight them.

 

 

Also, Urt. You are using on this Vid a dogfight build. It can hunt gunships, but its not optimal for it. I believe that LC/Pods Nova would be a better choice in this role(not to mention BR/Quads/Pods Flashfire).

 

You willing sacrificed the mobility of BR, or 0 engine drain of powerdive mobility, to have an offensive maneuver, crossing them with the short range of BLC, was a weakness that Saevnius exploited. (With style and class)

 

Also your cluster weren't T5, it cutted on your damage, it would have ended otherwise with the extra 30%

 

Conclusion: a T1 Gunship is a specialized ship and the best counter for it is another specialised craft. I`m quite confident that your build would be more that enough to squash a T3 gunship.

 

Does medium-good GS walls that happen most often get easily crushed by our premade(no VoIP) With one, max two GS on our side. Cause most of us, keeps a GS hunter on the bar. Be prepered, right?

 

Also to anwser your question, why people rearly counter GS walls on scouts? Couse scout have to get in the danger zone, with good aproach it most likely would be able to take down 2-3 GS on similar skill level, getting out and running to safety...that requires both skills and luck. But You cant expect to just farm pilots on similar skill level, now can`t You?

 

A balanced team, able to adapt, will always win.

 

Still, good chase, and i know how You fly, it clearly wasent your day.

 

 

- Etri

[Bolo_Yeung]

My... my..... you've now put soooooo many qualifiers on your statements that they've been rendered almost meaningless. So in conclusion, we're all sooooo stupid for not immediately interpreting your blanket "t1 gunship is the best ship in the game, here's a video to prove it where one beats me despite me having them dead to rights" to mean "in certain rare and limited situations where there are four non-bads on each side but they're all perfectly organized in their ship choices but nobody is talking on voip and all the scouts have all the others on ignore so they can't even type "I'll chase xyz, you focus abc" in chat, t1 gunships can be preferable to t2 scouts. To prove this here's a video that does not show any of those situations in any way, shape or form." OK, you've finally moved the goalposts to a point where you can smugly claim victory because few can argue with your final statement. In doing so, though, you've sequentially abandoned pretty much every position you've held. Cheers, hope to see you at Super Srs tonight.

 

Ok... so lets say it simpler, so you can understand (hopefully)

 

For typical TDM match, T1 Gunship is the best solution, with one good-for-all build (no need to specialize against scout - Both slug and ion rails, along with BLC are doing the same job against all ships. With best firing range, two missile lock breakers, ability to effectively cripple all but specialized builds with one shot and attack targets unaware of his presence - the only weakness is being severely vulnerable at close range (but still being able to run)

 

For typical domination match, T1 GS is maybe less dominating, but still one ship that can turn the tide. Destroying mines with ion AoE, crippling bombers that are flying (so strikes/scouts/bombers near sat can peel off 'tick bombers'.

So yes, overall in typical match it will be the best ship.

 

Fun fact from Progenitor, for my 3,5k games I've seen maybe 10 high skill GS-walls.

 

Did you include those you were part of? Because I consider you a 'high-skill'

 

Also, Urt. You are using on this Vid a dogfight build. It can hunt gunships, but its not optimal for it. I believe that LC/Pods Nova would be a better choice in this role(not to mention BR/Quads/Pods Flashfire).

While 'anti-gs' build T2 scout will have pretty good chances of attacking before eating ion rail, it will be weaker against other targets (maybe excluding bombers... ) - T1 GS does not have to be respecced to 'anti-scout'

And yes, with full upgrades, I'd probably win (and the chase would end faster). Still, it showed that a GS can fly evasively.

 

 

Does medium-good GS walls that happen most often get easily crushed by our premade(no VoIP) With one, max two GS on our side. Cause most of us, keeps a GS hunter on the bar. Be prepered, right?

is your premade 'medium-good' or above? I'd say above. In other words, the GS wall is overskilled by you...

 

 

Also to anwser your question, why people rearly counter GS walls on scouts? Couse scout have to get in the danger zone, with good aproach it most likely would be able to take down 2-3 GS on similar skill level, getting out and running to safety...that requires both skills and luck. But You cant expect to just farm pilots on similar skill level, now can`t You?

Assuming the attack would be coordinated with others, to keep GS busy Otherwise, good chance you'd get ion rail hit - and unless PD/Booster recharge build, it means pretty much an end of attacking.

 

 

A balanced team, able to adapt, will always win.

True. Though I'd like to see countering a GS/bomber ball without GS of your own.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Bolo_Yeung

[NeverEvar]

An ati GS scout will be weaker against BLC/Cluster scouts. No argument there. Still it`s more powerfull then strikes. Also pods kinda ruin Charged plating builds. Still what does it retain?

 

-Quads, one of the top 3 primary guns.

-Pods, no explanation needed

-High mobilty, that allows you to choose your battles

-Very high burst dmg, with targeting telemetry/Blaster overcharge

-Highest evasion in game

-With barrer roll 6 misile breakes per minute, with powerdive 9

 

I`m using a similar build, and not being very good with scouts, it still packs a masive punch.

 

Now what are T1 GS weakneses(I agree that they can be harder to exploit)

 

-BLC`s are at half maybe, one third of the power of scouts BLC. no thrusters, or capictor. They are the weapon of last resort, also no system slot.

-No thrusters. So every scout has better mobility

-Lower base evasion,

-Secondaries on close range are mostly useless

-Worst undersat fighting ability

-Lower regen rate(Scouts is 6.0/2.4 with regen thrusters, T1 GS is 5.0/2.0)

-crapy turning(with turning from BR pitch is 1,6 yaw is 1,0 scouts is 1,9 and 1,18(still with regen thrusters)

 

I`m not saying That T1 GS is not extremly dangerous. It is. But complaing that a T2 dogfight build cant hunt with same efficency as the specialized one. And thank god, if it could it would eliminate gunships from the meta.

 

Last note: Closing the gap on the stationary GS takes a mastered T2 scout(still with regen its less with speed) 4 seconds. Which means you can close the gap flying like monkey in straight line still with disto and RI, if you pop TT with evasion talent You are covered with 91% evasion for the entire time, and still you have 2 disto seconds.in that time a GS can shoot twice, with only one shoot full. Also You are ignoring scouts greatest asset. Scout chooses when to atack and how.

[Linuxizer]

Good video, as both lesson and entertainment. Not sure why it had to turn into an argument???