12 x XP for class-missions

[Ratajack]

I'm back!

And I notice the same old faulty arguments; what a surprise.

 

Fallacy #1: It will damage the game as people level too fast viz. neglect the MMO aspect of the game.

Truth: As has been repeatedly pointed out, the choice many are making is not play fast vs play slow. It is actually play fast vs. not playing at all. The anti-12ers still think we're all running around Ord Mantel as level 9's thinking "I wish I could be level 60 by dinner time." The cold hard fact they refuse to recognize is that level 9 Trooper doesn't exist because we are not starting new toons at all.

 

It is NOT a choice between playing fast vs not playing at all. It IS a choice between playing that new alt on a "light speed, easy mode, fast pass" to max level vs playing that alt slow or possibly not playing that alt. It IS a question of LAZINESS, or an aversion to the minimal effort required to level that new alt.

 

The fact is that whether or not those players are playing that new trooper alt or not, they ARE STILL PLAYING.

 

Fallacy #2: Grind is an important element of MMORPGs

Truth: Anyone who says this clearly do not understand the culture of MMORPGs. "Grinding" is primarily a Korean MMO feature because that is what that culture of gamers want in an MMO. There is nothing inherent in an MMO that requires grinding and in fact, a few games are looking at removing or minimizing levels at all and are looking at more skill-development paradigms. Is it grinding? Well yes in a way but it is moving from useless tasks into more character development tasks.

 

This game is NOT one of those removing the leveling system. Leveling IS an important part of this game, or ANY MMO with a leveling system. It makes no difference whether you consider that leveling process a "grind" or not.

 

Some players will consider the gearing process a "grind", yet that is an equally important part of the game. I do not think you will advocate giving players a class appropriate equivalent piece of gear for EACH AND EVERY CHARACTER they have every time a player acquires a piece of gear on a single character.

 

The same can be said for doing the daily "grind" for credits. Would you advocate giving players an equal number of credits for EACH AND EVERY CHARACTER they have any time a single one of their characters acquires any credits?

 

Why do you feel that you are entitled to skip any portion of the game that you find to be a "grind" and STILL be rewarded as if you had done that "grind" yet deny others the same opportunity to skip portions of the game they may find to be a "grind" and obtain those rewards?

 

 

Fallacy #3: Grind is an important element of MMORPGs

Truth: OK let's say the anti-12ers are right and BW or the gamer community or the MMO Gods demand the sacrifice of grinding. At what point have you done enough grinding to appease them? I have pointed out a few times (to be ignored by the anti-12ers) that most MMOs have you develop 3 or maybe 4 toons to get the full story. Is it fair to have you grind out four complete toons? Sure I can go with that (which incidentally is the minimum of what we are asking for - grind out four toons before you get 12xXP). SWTOR has at least 10 storylines you can go through. Do the grinders really expect us to grind out 2.5X as many toons to get the full extent of SWTOR? Is it fair to compare a 10 storyline game to a 4 storyline game in terms of the amount of work is expected from the player?

 

WoW has 12 classes. That equals 12 "grinds" to have a character of each class. The last time I checked TWELVE was more than three or four. In fact, it is even more than the 10 times that you want to tout as "too many".

 

If you want to see those stories, the opportunity already exists for you to see them. All that is required is for you to put forth the minimal effort required to do so.

 

Fallacy #4: Fast-tracking means players won't know their class.

Truth: Utterly ridiculous. First of all, the game never really makes you learn your class. There are no class specific missions to learn how to tank or heal or set up an effective rotation. Second, KDY killed off having to know your class (HTKYK) because anyone can run it like they're a DPS with their a ss on fire. IF players were required to run the Holy Trinity (i.e. non-tactical) flashpoints, that might cure the problem - but what does that have to do with 12xXP? Last, because of companions and being able to change specialties, the optimum (i.e. quickest) way to run SWTOR 1-60 is to gear and specialize as a DPS, get to level 60 and use your comms and regear/respec as a tank or healer if that is how you want to run endgame. The only healers/tanks 1-59 should be the RPers. Again, what does that have to do with 12xXP?

 

The fact that we have people now that do not know how to play their class is NOT a reason to exacerbate that situation by making it EVEN EASIER for players to reach max level without knowing their class.

 

Why should I expect that someone who is TOO LAZY to actually level that new character will actually bother to put forth the effort to actually check those websites to learn their new class or to actually gear that alt up before stepping into HM pugs, or OPS?

 

Fallacy #5: There will be credits and gearing issues.

We 12ers presume you already have at least four level 60s to support new toons. And if you are undergeared/underunded then run some flashpoints. The cries the first time around about need better gear or more $ came

a) from noobs that did not have a gearing/credit support system in place.

b) from people rushing through before the 12xXP was over.

Neither of these would occur under our system

 

I would expect that many of the players who were using the "light speed, easy mode, fast pass to max level" of 12XP during the limited time promotion also had alts that they could have used to bankroll or gear tghose new "fast track" alts. That did not stop them from crying on the forums and demanding to be given free gear, though, did it?

 

Why should I expect to see anything different in the future IF BW caves and caters to those TOO LAZY to level those new alts in the current system with the available XP boosts?

 

Fallacy #6: These are the rules BW has implemented and it is unfair to expect them to change something so fundamental to the game. BW should run the game the way THEY want it to be played and players need to abide by that.

Two words: Discipline System

 

The devs chose to change the skill tree system for their own reasons, NOT because there was a thread on the forums asking them to change the skill trees.

 

In fact, the discipline system actually works against your argument, as there WERE countless threads begging, pleading or demanding that the skill system be left as it was and that the discipline system NOT be implemented. How well did that work out for them? Did the devs cave and leave the skill system as it was, or did the devs choose to run the game according to THEIR vision and design?

[Ghisallo]

And I think I addressed that in #3. Sure there will be a grind but is it a grind on useless tasks or useful tasks? What about race questlines like a Twi'lek quest to Ryloth or a Ratatakki "coming of age" questline. What about questlines to learn how to tank or set up a rotation? What about a questline to get the purple crystal rather than just buying one. What about companion questlines more than the one or two you get per toon.

 

My contention was to the anti-12ers that grinding is the same as "earning" your level. Look at the accusations they make. Rarely is it about content but instead how we are "lazy" because we don't want to grind. It's not really a grinding issue as much as doing the same task over and over (very Korean). I guaranty if there were more variety in content, the 12xXP would not even be discussed. And that I place directly in the lap of Bioware. When you're selling your product based on stories, you cannot suffer from a lack of story options.

 

The thing is "useless tasks" is subjective. I found neat little "nuggets" that expanded my understanding of my characters on those side quests. However like I said I don't have trouble with 12x exp until you hit the "old" level cap so to speak. BUT to do that they do need to add a gear score mechanic to the LFD queue. When you level that fast you usually end up undergeared and that can cause issues in the FPs and OPs

[EllieAnne]

It is NOT a choice between playing fast vs not playing at all. It IS a choice between playing that new alt on a "light speed, easy mode, fast pass" to max level vs playing that alt slow or possibly not playing that alt. It IS a question of LAZINESS, or an aversion to the minimal effort required to level that new alt.

 

 

So you're saying we HAVE to make alts? I did not know that.

 

Or I could say my point is proven

[Djiini]

Don't worry, you guys don't look entitled by wanting to inhibit other people.

 

You're okay!

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Don't worry, you guys don't look entitled by wanting to inhibit other people.

 

You're okay!

 

Actually, they dont. You may want to look up the definition of entitled...

[Djiini]

Actually, they dont. You may want to look up the definition of entitled...

 

Sorry, I'm still waiting for people to give me a way that other people taking Easy Street hurts you guys, and nobody has given me a good one.

[Taiichii]

Putting 12x as a Legacy perk is definitely one of the options we discussed, among many. I believe that is what we had talked about in the past, (on a stream or at a cantina) that it was one of the possible options. As far as I know, it is not currently planned to implement that as a Legacy perk at this time.

 

-eric

 

Just make it a legacy 50 perk.

[Ratajack]

Sorry, I'm still waiting for people to give me a way that other people taking Easy Street hurts you guys, and nobody has given me a good one.

 

I'm still waiting for the "light speed, easy mode, fast pass to max level" people to give a reason that they should be able to skip the parts of the game they do not like yet still be rewarded as if they did them, while denying others the option to skip the parts of the game that they do not like and still be rewarded as if they did them.

[Djiini]

I'm still waiting for the "light speed, easy mode, fast pass to max level" people to give a reason that they should be able to skip the parts of the game they do not like yet still be rewarded as if they did them, while denying others the option to skip the parts of the game that they do not like and still be rewarded as if they did them.

 

I don't need a reason, I'm a jerk.

Can you say the same?

Edited April 3, 2015 by Djiini

[Ratajack]

So you're saying we HAVE to make alts? I did not know that.

 

Or I could say my point is proven

 

Nobody HAS to make alts, but don't tell me it's a choice between playing fast and NOT playing at all, when it clearly is a case of "give me a light speed, easy mode, fast pass to max level" or I simply won't play that alt.

 

If you're argument is that catering to the "LAZY, entitled, have to have it now and for as little effort as possible" crowd will not reduce the numbers of players on lower level planets and in lower level FP's, then I disagree.

 

While some players may not make any alts due to their aversion to the minimal effort required to level those alts (LAZINESS), many others DO create those alts now and level as the game is designed. If the devs chose to implement that 12XP, while it may entice you to finally create those alts, it would also likely remove many of those who currently are leveling alts on those lower level planets and FP's from the social or "grouping" pool.

 

There may not be a net loss with regards to some players since you claim they would not be on those planets or in those FP's anyway, but many of those who currently are would likely opt for the "fast pass" option and then those pools of players available for grouping would be reduced.

 

This would result in a net loss of players with whom lower levels would be able to interact, even if you want to cover your eyes and refuse to see, or stick your fingers in your ears shouting "NYAH NYAH NYAH, I can't hear you" and refuse to listen to this and other cogent and logical points.

[Ratajack]

I don't need a reason, I'm a jerk.

Can you say the same?

 

If you are trying to call me a jerk, feel free. I've been called worse by better.

[Djiini]

If you are trying to call me a jerk, feel free. I've been called worse by better.

 

No, I'm saying all the reasoning I need for not caring if 12x XP 'ruins it for other people' is that I'm a jerk.

But if you want to convince me that it's bad for the game and not just people whining, then please do so.

[ekwalizer]

Fallacy #1: It will damage the game as people level too fast viz. neglect the MMO aspect of the game.

Truth: As has been repeatedly pointed out, the choice many are making is not play fast vs play slow. It is actually play fast vs. not playing at all. The anti-12ers still think we're all running around Ord Mantel as level 9's thinking "I wish I could be level 60 by dinner time." The cold hard fact they refuse to recognize is that level 9 Trooper doesn't exist because we are not starting new toons at all.

 

I have 23 level 60s and I am still rolling new toons. So .... yeah. This is your opinion, not a truth or a fact.

 

Fallacy #2: Grind is an important element of MMORPGs

Truth: Anyone who says this clearly do not understand the culture of MMORPGs. "Grinding" is primarily a Korean MMO feature because that is what that culture of gamers want in an MMO. There is nothing inherent in an MMO that requires grinding and in fact, a few games are looking at removing or minimizing levels at all and are looking at more skill-development paradigms. Is it grinding? Well yes in a way but it is moving from useless tasks into more character development tasks.

 

This isn't one of those. So .... yeah.

 

Fallacy #3: Grind is an important element of MMORPGs

Truth: OK let's say the anti-12ers are right and BW or the gamer community or the MMO Gods demand the sacrifice of grinding. At what point have you done enough grinding to appease them? I have pointed out a few times (to be ignored by the anti-12ers) that most MMOs have you develop 3 or maybe 4 toons to get the full story. Is it fair to have you grind out four complete toons? Sure I can go with that (which incidentally is the minimum of what we are asking for - grind out four toons before you get 12xXP). SWTOR has at least 10 storylines you can go through. Do the grinders really expect us to grind out 2.5X as many toons to get the full extent of SWTOR? Is it fair to compare a 10 storyline game to a 4 storyline game in terms of the amount of work is expected from the player?

 

This shows a clear lack of SWTOR knowledge on your part. There are 8, eight, stories. Lightside and darkside stories, Male/Female characters do not impact your overall story. It starts how it starts and it ends how it ends. With very, very minor variations. So, I don't get the impression that you are quite the game expert needed to be an advocate of a change to the leveling system.

 

Fallacy #4: Fast-tracking means players won't know their class.

Truth: Utterly ridiculous. First of all, the game never really makes you learn your class. There are no class specific missions to learn how to tank or heal or set up an effective rotation. Second, KDY killed off having to know your class (HTKYK) because anyone can run it like they're a DPS with their a ss on fire. IF players were required to run the Holy Trinity (i.e. non-tactical) flashpoints, that might cure the problem - but what does that have to do with 12xXP? Last, because of companions and being able to change specialties, the optimum (i.e. quickest) way to run SWTOR 1-60 is to gear and specialize as a DPS, get to level 60 and use your comms and regear/respec as a tank or healer if that is how you want to run endgame. The only healers/tanks 1-59 should be the RPers. Again, what does that have to do with 12xXP?

 

Bads will be bads. Your system encourages and rewards it.

 

Fallacy #5: There will be credits and gearing issues.

We 12ers presume you already have at least four level 60s to support new toons. And if you are undergeared/underunded then run some flashpoints. The cries the first time around about need better gear or more $ came

a) from noobs that did not have a gearing/credit support system in place.

b) from people rushing through before the 12xXP was over.

Neither of these would occur under our system

 

Here's the deal, a permanent 12xp booster is just too much. Please see my signature for a more reasonable system.

 

Fallacy #6: These are the rules BW has implemented and it is unfair to expect them to change something so fundamental to the game. BW should run the game the way THEY want it to be played and players need to abide by that.

Two words: Discipline System

 

Just as you have the right to make the suggestion based on what you think is a good idea, I have the right to tell you that I think it's a bad idea.

[ekwalizer]

So you're saying we HAVE to make alts? I did not know that.

 

Or I could say my point is proven

 

You don't *have* to, but the option is available to you. I have 23 maxed toons and I am still rolling new toons.

[Grayseven]

This debate has led my thoughts down an odd path...

 

People want 12xp because they find leveling boring after doing it for the umpteenth time. But if you find leveling boring why are you leveling another toon?

 

Could it be because there is nothing else for you to do, so you want to run through the story stuff again...or complete story lines you've not yet seen? Maybe end game has lost its luster?

 

Have you noticed the number of long term players slash forum denizens that are now silent?

 

The only thing I log in for any more is for my HM progression nights. The newest HM FP's are tired and uninspired, so I don't do them. The dailies...all of them...are boring. The rewards for doing dailies and weeklies aren't worth the effort.

 

This game feels stagnant. Even when new stuff is added, it seems to have been done poorly with little effort. GSF? Dead in the water after a poor implementation. Strongholds? Awful hook system completely stifles real creativity. The Revan storyline final fight? Constant stuns instead of a heroic fight makes me wonder if the person who designed it "phoned it in" while prepping his resume' and hoping for a new job somewhere else.

 

It occurs to me that the most probably reason why 12x xp won't come back until the next expansion (if then) is that EA/BW doesn't want players to realize how little fun there is once you hit end game. Especially for casuals who don't feel like smacking their head against HM FP's and SM operations tuned too high for casuals.

 

Bringing back 12x xp might not be a sound business decision for EA/BW...

[Ghisallo]

This debate has led my thoughts down an odd path...

 

People want 12xp because they find leveling boring after doing it for the umpteenth time. But if you find leveling boring why are you leveling another toon?

 

Could it be because there is nothing else for you to do, so you want to run through the story stuff again...or complete story lines you've not yet seen? Maybe end game has lost its luster?

 

Have you noticed the number of long term players slash forum denizens that are now silent?

 

The only thing I log in for any more is for my HM progression nights. The newest HM FP's are tired and uninspired, so I don't do them. The dailies...all of them...are boring. The rewards for doing dailies and weeklies aren't worth the effort.

 

This game feels stagnant. Even when new stuff is added, it seems to have been done poorly with little effort. GSF? Dead in the water after a poor implementation. Strongholds? Awful hook system completely stifles real creativity. The Revan storyline final fight? Constant stuns instead of a heroic fight makes me wonder if the person who designed it "phoned it in" while prepping his resume' and hoping for a new job somewhere else.

 

It occurs to me that the most probably reason why 12x xp won't come back until the next expansion (if then) is that EA/BW doesn't want players to realize how little fun there is once you hit end game. Especially for casuals who don't feel like smacking their head against HM FP's and SM operations tuned too high for casuals.

 

Bringing back 12x xp might not be a sound business decision for EA/BW...

 

I think it's more about the people who want SWTOR to be a BW:TOR game vs an MMO. They don't have interest in doing the HM FPs or the OPs... to them it is just about the stories and the cut scenes,,, feeling like the hero rather than playing the group content...which is the traditional MMO bit. In other words its about EA/Bioware saying "this is an MMO" and other people saying "but I didn't want an MMO...I wanted KoTOR with a group option.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Djiini]

I think it's more about the people who want SWTOR to be a BW:TOR game vs an MMO. They don't have interest in doing the HM FPs or the OPs... to them it is just about the stories and the cut scenes,,, feeling like the hero rather than playing the group content...which is the traditional MMO bit.

 

Did you just manage to make 'they play for the story, not the MMO content' sound negative?

 

How'd you even do that?!

[Mowermanx]

This debate has led my thoughts down an odd path...

 

People want 12xp because they find leveling boring after doing it for the umpteenth time. But if you find leveling boring why are you leveling another toon?

 

Could it be because there is nothing else for you to do, so you want to run through the story stuff again...or complete story lines you've not yet seen? Maybe end game has lost its luster?

 

Have you noticed the number of long term players slash forum denizens that are now silent?

 

The only thing I log in for any more is for my HM progression nights. The newest HM FP's are tired and uninspired, so I don't do them. The dailies...all of them...are boring. The rewards for doing dailies and weeklies aren't worth the effort.

 

This game feels stagnant. Even when new stuff is added, it seems to have been done poorly with little effort. GSF? Dead in the water after a poor implementation. Strongholds? Awful hook system completely stifles real creativity. The Revan storyline final fight? Constant stuns instead of a heroic fight makes me wonder if the person who designed it "phoned it in" while prepping his resume' and hoping for a new job somewhere else.

 

It occurs to me that the most probably reason why 12x xp won't come back until the next expansion (if then) is that EA/BW doesn't want players to realize how little fun there is once you hit end game. Especially for casuals who don't feel like smacking their head against HM FP's and SM operations tuned too high for casuals.

 

Bringing back 12x xp might not be a sound business decision for EA/BW...

 

Some fair points there, but what if they charged a whole lot of money for it so as to make plenty off the people on their way out? Seems to me that could be possible.

Wow are selling the level 90 boost for $40-50? what if they offered this for a similar price for the people that absolutely have to have this?

[Ratajack]

Did you just manage to make 'they play for the story, not the MMO content' sound negative?

 

How'd you even do that?!

 

Apparently, it was not hard to do.

[Ratajack]

Some fair points there, but what if they charged a whole lot of money for it so as to make plenty off the people on their way out? Seems to me that could be possible.

Wow are selling the level 90 boost for $40-50? what if they offered this for a similar price for the people that absolutely have to have this?

 

If they did that, the cries on the forum would simply change from "We deserve and are entitled to a "light speed, easy mode, fast pass to max level" to "It's too expensive. BW is just greedy. I'll quit if they don't give it to me cheaper, or preferably free. After all, I have X number of characters, and I DESERVE IT AND AM ENTITLED TO IT!!!"

[branmakmuffin]

Did you just manage to make 'they play for the story, not the MMO content' sound negative?

 

How'd you even do that?!

Well, he certainly is not the first person to post negative comments about the heavily story-driven content of what was advertised to be and is a heavily story-driven MMO. The proverbial "I went to a vegan restaurant and they wouldn't make me a hamburger" complaint.

[Grayseven]

Well, he certainly is not the first person to post negative comments about the heavily story-driven content of what was advertised to be and is a heavily story-driven MMO. The proverbial "I went to a vegan restaurant and they wouldn't make me a hamburger" complaint.

 

Since launch we've seen a decrease in that initial story driven game play to the point that I don't believe SWTOR can claim that as its main draw.

 

I doubt we will ever see story as deep and compelling as the class missions of the first 50 levels. Since then, the story aspect of the game hasn't been any different from the story aspects of other MMO's. Even the voice acting has taken a hit compared to the initial 50 levels.

 

SWTOR has moved away from being heavily story driven.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Grayseven

[MandFlurry]

Sorry, I'm still waiting for people to give me a way that other people taking Easy Street hurts you guys, and nobody has given me a good one.

 

And They Never can give good reasons either. The ppl that oppose 12X xp are are really bratty and Egotistical. They think you have to do certain things in order to do, or get 12X, one of the Stupidest thing is the Legacy 50 crap, which i'm not even at and I have several of each levels 60's, 55's and 50's. Those morons have No Right to tell me or any1 else how we should get 12X, or how to play, they Don't have that right whatsoever.

 

With as much grinding and and lvl'ing most of us 12X'ers have done, we deserve to have an alternate way of getting to lvl 50.

 

Of course i'm talking about 12X for getting just to lvl 50 for now. Any1 should be able to just pay a Fee for 12X, that is all.

[Ratajack]

And They Never can give good reasons either. The ppl that oppose 12X xp are are really bratty and Egotistical. They think you have to do certain things in order to do, or get 12X, one of the Stupidest thing is the Legacy 50 crap, which i'm not even at and I have several of each levels 60's, 55's and 50's. Those morons have No Right to tell me or any1 else how we should get 12X, or how to play, they Don't have that right whatsoever.

 

With as much grinding and and lvl'ing most of us 12X'ers have done, we deserve to have an alternate way of getting to lvl 50.

 

Of course i'm talking about 12X for getting just to lvl 50 for now. Any1 should be able to just pay a Fee for 12X, that is all.

 

I'm still waiting for the "light speed, easy mode, fast pass to max level" people to give a reason that they should be able to skip the parts of the game they do not like yet still be rewarded as if they did them, while denying others the option to skip the parts of the game that they do not like and still be rewarded as if they did them.

 

BTW, those against 12XP have given numerous cogent and logical reasons why 12XP would be detrimental to the game as a whole. The fact that you, and others, want to dismiss and ignore those reasons since they do not mesh with your desire for a "light speed, easy mode, fast pass to max level" makes them no less cogent or logical.

[AdmiralTran]

I think it would be a good idea to at least include a 12x XP pack available from the cartel market for class missions. Lots of progression raiders are having to switch to different toons or lvl new ones because of upcoming nerfs, and if they're main was a Mara/Sent, most top guilds are not recruiting them for PVE.