So....about GTM prices

[Neglience]

All rarity in an MMO is contrived by the developer to extend the grind and distract the players from whether or not the content itself is actually enjoyable.

 

No, it is done because developers can not generate content at a speed players will rush through them. A MMO needs game aspects which just take time and effort. Everything else is not working.

[Max_Killjoy]

Woosh! That flew right over your head...

 

I don't HAVE to "believe" in capitalism, because I know it exists and that it works. You compared it to religion and implied that it required faith.

 

It doesn't. No more than I have to "believe" that the Earth is round. I *know* the Earth is round, believing is not required.

 

YOU used the word believe, stop trying to put that on me. YOU made the statement regarding my supposed lack of faith in capitalism. To quote you again:

 

There is no need to "put a lid on speculators", that is your false premise right there. It shows your colors, that you don't believe in capitalism. .

 

OK, if one does not need to believe in capitalism, why was it supposedly my problem that I supposedly "don't believe in capitalism"?

[SelinaH]

The point of the game is to enjoy playing the game. Gear, mods, mounts, etc, are all just tools for playing the game.

Stop confusing this with a discussion about the real life, and stop presuming that one's opinion of the inner workings of a game played for fun reflect one's views about the real world.

Perhaps you should stop confusing your inability to fulfill your personal wants in a game with the economy's being broken and other players' being evil and greedy, and stop presuming that everyone gets fun out of a game in exactly the same way you do.

[Max_Killjoy]

Perhaps you should stop confusing your inability to fulfill your personal wants in a game with the economy's being broken and other players' being evil and greedy, and stop presuming that everyone gets fun out of a game in exactly the same way you do.

 

There's very little in the game I want that I don't have, but thanks for another attempt to make this personal, the thread didn't have that enough as it was.

 

It is precious how even calling into question the faux-economy of the game immediately draws out the usual suspects with the assumptions that I must be a no-credits SWTOR-hobo who can't get what he wants in the game.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[SelinaH]

All rarity in an MMO is contrived by the developer to extend the grind and distract the players from whether or not the content itself is actually enjoyable.

It sounds like your problem is with MMOs, period. Good luck changing the paradigm.

[curulz]

There should be multiple ways to get all gear, no gear should be stuck behind a paywall, a grindwall, or a repwall.

 

All schematics for a crafting skill should be available to anyone who has leveled that crafting skill to the needed point, end of story.

 

All materials should be available from gathering missions or nodes, and also from the Jawa vendors, and also from other sources.

 

Etc.

 

All rarity in an MMO is contrived by the developer to extend the grind and distract the players from whether or not the content itself is actually enjoyable.

 

Multiple ways to get gear? Check! Run the ops or buy from GTN

 

Available schematics? Check! Run the op, get the item, RE it and blam you got it!

 

The high end crafting mats are gated behind the op, you know...by playing the game. But should one choose to not go that route, blam! Trade credits for them, so still multiple ways to get them.

[Max_Killjoy]

Multiple ways to get gear? Check! Run the ops or buy from GTN

 

Available schematics? Check! Run the op, get the item, RE it and blam you got it!

 

The high end crafting mats are gated behind the op, you know...by playing the game. But should one choose to not go that route, blam! Trade credits for them, so still multiple ways to get them.

 

Did you perhaps miss the part about not locking schematics and materials behind a grindwall?

 

But then, you also seem to think that "grind, or pay someone else to grind" qualifies as "multiple sources", so...

Edited February 16, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[SelinaH]

There's very little in the game I want that I don't have, but thanks for another attempt to make this personal, the thread didn't have that enough as it was.

 

It is precious how even calling into question the faux-economy of the game immediately draws out the usual suspects with the assumptions that I must be a no-credits SWTOR-hobo who can't get what he wants in the game.

Perhaps you should stop confusing one's inability to fulfill one's personal wants in a game with the economy's being broken and other players' being evil and greedy, and stop presuming that everyone gets fun out of a game in exactly the same way you do.

 

Apologies. Corrections in orange.

[Grayseven]

Arguing with Max is a waste of time. He believes that only his style of game play should matter and that the work of other players or the real money they spend in the Cartel Market shouldn't matter. If it were up to him, other players would give him the stuff he wants for free since he can't be bothered to work for it.

 

Take my advice and put him on your ignore list. His views on an in game economy are based entirely on the juvenile belief that MMO's shouldn't have an economy.

[curulz]

Did you perhaps miss the part about not locking schematics and materials behind a grindwall?

 

Nope. But wouldn't leveling a skill to 500 also be a grind wall by your definition?

[Max_Killjoy]

Arguing with Max is a waste of time. He believes that only his style of game play should matter and that the work of other players or the real money they spend in the Cartel Market shouldn't matter. If it were up to him, other players would give him the stuff he wants for free since he can't be bothered to work for it.

 

Take my advice and put him on your ignore list. His views on an in game economy are based entirely on the juvenile belief that MMO's shouldn't have an economy.

 

That's funny coming from someone who's only argument is to try to shove words into other people's mouths and deliberately misconstrue their positions in order to win his precious little internet points -- and never mind that they never said the things you so pathetically, desperately want to pretend they said.

 

Grow up.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Heat-Wave]

There should be multiple ways to get all gear, no gear should be stuck behind a paywall, a grindwall, or a repwall.

 

All schematics for a crafting skill should be available to anyone who has leveled that crafting skill to the needed point, end of story.

 

All materials should be available from gathering missions or nodes, and also from the Jawa vendors, and also from other sources.

 

Etc.

 

All rarity in an MMO is contrived by the developer to extend the grind and distract the players from whether or not the content itself is actually enjoyable.

 

Fair enough, you're welcome to those views...

 

I will say the chances of them happening in this game are zero. Then my suggestion to you is to go start your own MMO and implement them. If they are great ideas, you should be successful. If not, then you won't.

[SelinaH]

Arguing with Max is a waste of time. He believes that only his style of game play should matter and that the work of other players or the real money they spend in the Cartel Market shouldn't matter. If it were up to him, other players would give him the stuff he wants for free since he can't be bothered to work for it.

There's been a positive epidemic of ill-advised, "I want!" suggestions in the forum lately whose authors counter all objections with "Well, your fun doesn't count!"

 

They just make me tired. I must be getting old.

[Heat-Wave]

No, it is done because developers can not generate content at a speed players will rush through them. A MMO needs game aspects which just take time and effort. Everything else is not working.

 

Sure they could, it just costs more money.

 

Now, the argument could be made that MMO players won't pay what it costs to do it, and that might be right. People love to ask for things they won't actually pay for, it is the job of the company management to figure out what customers will actually pay for.

 

I would happily pay $60 a month for SWTOR if it got us a Rishi or Yavin every month, a new WZ map every month, and a new FP every month.

 

But are there enough of "me" to fund it, since it would cost many millions of dollars a month to keep up with such a pace?

[Max_Killjoy]

There's been a positive epidemic of ill-advised, "I want!" suggestions in the forum lately whose authors counter all objections with "Well, your fun doesn't count!"

 

They just make me tired. I must be getting old.

 

Frankly, I'm usually on the other side of those arguments.

 

For some reason, the abuse of hybrids justified eliminating them from the game and to tell with anyone who had fun with them, tough break, that's the price of "improvement" (to cite but one example)... but people who deliberately drive up GTN prices and keep the tools needed to access more content out of the hands of other players are fine, and it would be "ruining their fun" to do anything about it.

 

Or use the CSM as another example... it was OK to ruin the fun that people were having with that item, in order to protect the "fun" of the people who rely on artifact and exotic mats being rare to turn large profits.

 

I don't really want to make it harder for people to buy and send gifts, or donate to their guilds. But given the way things work around here and how Bioware handles issues, obviously the only acceptable solutions are the ones that make the game worse for one group in order to appease another.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Heat-Wave]

There's very little in the game I want that I don't have, but thanks for another attempt to make this personal, the thread didn't have that enough as it was.

 

It is precious how even calling into question the faux-economy of the game immediately draws out the usual suspects with the assumptions that I must be a no-credits SWTOR-hobo who can't get what he wants in the game.

 

You should take anything posted on a forum personally.

 

In my experience, the people who call for price controls, limits on reselling, etc are poor people. I can't think of a single rich person who has ever said it.

 

If you're not poor in the game, then you shouldn't have framed your comment the way you did. If you simply want all items to be there for all players, then just say so. Blaming people for playing the game is just foolish. Say that you'd like the game to be changed, and you wouldn't get this response.

[SelinaH]

I don't really want to make it harder for people to buy and send gifts, or donate to their guilds. But given the way things work around here and how Bioware handles issues, obviously the only acceptable solutions are the ones that make the game worse for one group in order to appease another.

The other acceptable solution is not to implement a change that makes things less-fun to address a questionable problem. (Clearly, this is not an acceptable solution for you, but I simply don't see the devs flipping "MMO Economy 101" on its head by divorcing reward items from in-game activity.)

 

I'm just going to excerpt one of your posts from the latest "I exploited!" thread here:

It's all numbers and pixels in the game. No matter how many are taken, there's still an infinite number of copies. The real-life comparison for the harm side just doesn't work, because in real life, there are only so many cars, or dollars, or whatever, and taking them from someone actually deprives them of it.

 

None of your other examples are actually harmful in any way. So what if someone gets "a leg up"? Big flipping deal. It's not a race.

I'm slightly confused on how "numbers and pixels" with "infinite copies" can be overpriced on the GTN. Surely people can get themselves some of these copies of things they need to play the game?

[AlrikFassbauer]

In my experience, the people who call for price controls, limits on reselling, etc are poor people. I can't think of a single rich person who has ever said it.

 

Fully and exactly like it is in RL.

 

Because lots of money gives return of investment far faster and even bigger, than what people wil low money can get.

 

Even worse : People whith low money must spend a far, far higher percentage of their money for BASIC costs ( remember : I said "basic" ! ) like fees, than people with lots of money do !

 

And - there just isn't any "free market" in RL. It's illusion held upright by those who profit from this illusion.

[Jeweledleah]

you do not need 37 barrels/hilts/meds/etc to acess content. you need a group of people capable of clearing it. story modes are tuned for 186 gear. I've done them in mix of 186 and 180 with old augments. those barrels and hilts? are to go into hardmode OPERATIONS. and if you don't have a group capable of clearing storymodes, how are you going to get to hardmodes?

 

and the thing is... once new content is added that requires that gear as starter gear to do story modes? just like in a past? vendors get adjusted, so that baseline gear, bought for basic/daily commendations? is 192. and so on. and so forth.

 

while I'm not a fan (there's an understatement) of rng based mechanic of acquisition of basic purple mission skill mats (primarily becasue they ARE used to craft the very basic starter gear and they ARE one of those things that is available to solo players without needing a group) when it comes to raid drops? you either get them as drops? or you pay up.

 

for some people getting to sell that hilt or a barrel crafted is a matter of competing for a drop with 15 other people once a week. for some - this is how their guild makes credits to unlock ships, pay for repairs etc. a group effort to support aforementioned group. there's nothing NOTHING wrong with that.

[Max_Killjoy]

The other acceptable solution is not to implement a change that makes things less-fun to address a questionable problem. (Clearly, this is not an acceptable solution for you, but I simply don't see the devs flipping "MMO Economy 101" on its head by divorcing reward items from in-game activity.)

 

The outcome is what matters in the end, a better method of reaching that outcome that makes the game better for as many as possible and worse for as few as possible is always preferable.

 

I'm just going to excerpt one of your posts from the latest "I exploited!" thread here:

 

I'm slightly confused on how "numbers and pixels" with "infinite copies" can be overpriced on the GTN. Surely people can get themselves some of these copies of things they need to play the game?

 

What's to be confused about? Bioware effectively has infinite copies, that doesn't change that there's a contrived rarity imposed on players actually being able to access those things.

[Heat-Wave]

The outcome is what matters in the end, a better method of reaching that outcome that makes the game better for as many as possible and worse for as few as possible is always preferable.

 

What's to be confused about? Bioware effectively has infinite copies, that doesn't change that there's a contrived rarity imposed on players actually being able to access those things.

 

Your idea of "better outcome" is an opinion, one clearly not shared with many people here.

 

Regarding infinite copies, that is true, hence my question to you (which you did not answer), should BW just give everyone at lvl 60 a free set of BiS gear and skip the grind?

[Max_Killjoy]

Your idea of "better outcome" is an opinion, one clearly not shared with many people here.

 

Regarding infinite copies, that is true, hence my question to you (which you did not answer), should BW just give everyone at lvl 60 a free set of BiS gear and skip the grind?

 

It's an option, though probably not the best option -- it's probably going too far.

[Heat-Wave]

It's an option, though probably not the best option -- it's probably going too far.

 

The follow up of course is... What would be the point, beyond seeing the stories a few times, of continuing to play the game, if everyone had end game gear?

 

---

 

Humans respond to rewards, without them, people don't do much. How many lotto winners really keep their jobs? I'm sure you could find one example, but I'll bet most don't.

 

People work because they have to... People grind because that is the only way to get the end game gear. Without the grind, a lot of people wouldn't do it. Look at the lvl 55 ops, once ultimates were remove, everyone stopped playing them.

 

If people have nothing to grind, they'll stop paying. And that continued payment is the part where your ideas hit the real world, stop being "just a game", and why the game does need an economy.

 

Think about it, single player games that have no sub, also have no "economy", there is no need. You get the best stuff by just playing the story.

 

Want the best guns in Call of Duty single player? Just play, you get them. Want the best guns in Call of Duty multiplayer? Grind city....

[Jeweledleah]

The outcome is what matters in the end, a better method of reaching that outcome that makes the game better for as many as possible and worse for as few as possible is always preferable.

 

 

 

What's to be confused about? Bioware effectively has infinite copies, that doesn't change that there's a contrived rarity imposed on players actually being able to access those things.

 

when everyone can get everything in unlimited quantities with little effort? it stops being fun. not to mention, when it comes to high end gear - even if you have it, it still doesn't solve the issue of needing a group of people capable of clearing content in order to actualy, you know - utilize it. so what do we do now? simplify content so that everyone can do it? it stops being fun as well.

 

becasue you see, part of the fun is going from the point where you cannot do something - to the point where you can. if you don't have that road? sense of accomplishment and serotonin in your brain cause by it? is lost

Edited February 16, 2015 by Jeweledleah

[Neglience]

What's to be confused about? Bioware effectively has infinite copies, that doesn't change that there's a contrived rarity imposed on players actually being able to access those things.

 

Stop calling this a "contrived rarity". In your argumentation everything below free and instant level 60 characters, with maxed out gear from the start and excess to everything a player want is a "contrived rarity".

 

What you call "contrived rarity" are the rules of the game.