lightSaberAddiCt Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) So last night I qued for a HM 60 FP, and I realized that tactical FPs are making players stupid. I am heals, I get grouped with a dps jugg queing as a tank, and 2 melee dps. No crowd control, the tank couldnt hold aggro , and all of them getting major loss of HPs, then try to put the blame....of course....on the healer. I would really like to meet a healer that COULD keepmup with that amount of heals. ATTENTION....YOU CANT ZERG THROUGH A 60 HM LIKE A TACTICAL WHEN EVERYONE IS IN 186 GEAR!!! Sorry had to get that off my chest.... /end rant Edited February 14, 2015 by lightSaberAddiCt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedip_enguin Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Trust me, they were stupid before tacticals existed too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I actually agree with the OP. It used to be that SM FP still had the trinity requirement. Try The False Emperor on SM with a group of 4 lvl 50 DPS toons in 140 purple and let me know how well it works out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bachannal Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I dunno that I'd say Tacticals make folks "stupid" so much as lazy. Tacticals allow anyone to stroll through the FP and play it like a loose cannon. It doesn't teach, much less require real mechanics of any kind. And I think that when you give folks a chance to say - let their healer deal out some DPS, or let a DPS "play tank" it can foster this sense of laziness - ESPECIALLY given that if you queue for GF, and if you have selected all of the toggles, that you know 9.99 times out of ten you're getting a tactical to run, not any other type of FP or OP. So basically when you get a player base who keeps getting shoved into tacticals because the queue system is garbage, and then allow people to just run amok, you wind up with a whole lot of people who got lazy with playing their toons in a group setting because they had no need to actually play their class or spec properly if using the tactical FP system whatsoever. Some may argue that players should still play to their class and spec, and I'd agree, but when you make it easy for them to do otherwise, you really can't expect that people will always have the wherewithal to make the correct choices and play how they're supposed to. Just look at how most people run through a tactical anyway...it's almost always a flat-out run through the FP just to get it done ASAP, more like yanking off a band-aid to avoid the pain than enjoying it or treating it like a practice run for the actual FP's, which is probably what they were supposed to be like when initially created. Meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianDavion Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 the problem is at level 60 right now all we have is taticals and hard mode. there's no in between, which IMHO is despiratly needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daewan Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 No. They were always stupid. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=633655 Note the original posting date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Bac pretty much nailed it, and I'll add to it. That 12xp was a nice feature, but it also allowed some to not learn the game and bypass simple mechanics. One of the benefits to leveling is that you learn those abilities, when and where to use them. In other words, check your abilities and how they function. Be smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TX_Angel Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Just look at how most people run through a tactical anyway...it's almost always a flat-out run through the FP just to get it done ASAP, more like yanking off a band-aid to avoid the pain than enjoying it or treating it like a practice run for the actual FP's, which is probably what they were supposed to be like when initially created. Meh. Sure, they can be enjoyed the first time, or even the second and third... What about the 10th? Most of the FP have an achievement for doing them 25 times. I have quite a few of those, I assure you, after awhile it is just smash at full speed, the luster has worn off. The first time I did Tython/Korriban FP, I took my time and marveled at the look... I have both 25-times achievements, I assure you that I don't marvel anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TX_Angel Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Bac pretty much nailed it, and I'll add to it. That 12xp was a nice feature, but it also allowed some to not learn the game and bypass simple mechanics. One of the benefits to leveling is that you learn those abilities, when and where to use them. In other words, check your abilities and how they function. Be smart. Do you? Do you really learn them? I have multiple tanks, I didn't learn squat about tanking from the leveling process... it was just smash everything... once I got to lvl 50, then 55, then I started learning about tanking... And I think that is the problem... The 1-50 story mode of leveling doesn't teach anything about how to end game play in HM FP or OPs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugisttod Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Do you? Do you really learn them? ... The 1-50 story mode of leveling doesn't teach anything about how to end game play in HM FP or OPs. ^^ This. In fact, how many people even level spec'd as a healer or a tank? This board is full of posts recommending levelling up spec'd for DPS, and only switching to a heal or tank spec at max level. (Personally, I actually do level spec'd as healer or tank, but that's how I enjoy playing). Plus it takes a couple of weeks to level up if you use boosts etc, during which time you gain new skills and your rotations constantly change. Simple fact is, good players are good, bad players are bad. You can hand a good player a brand new level 60 they've never touched before, and within a week they've mastered it. You could force a bad player to spend a year levelling up and they'd still be a bad player. Bright side: good players make for a fun experience, bad players make for a funny story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceavenger Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Do you? Do you really learn them? I have multiple tanks, I didn't learn squat about tanking from the leveling process... it was just smash everything... once I got to lvl 50, then 55, then I started learning about tanking... And I think that is the problem... The 1-50 story mode of leveling doesn't teach anything about how to end game play in HM FP or OPs. Then you did it wrong. Its how I learned to tank just keeping the aggro and learning how to gather up mobs, especially if they are ranged mobs. Just keeping them off my companion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Do you? Do you really learn them? It's not about tanking or dps'ing, or healing. it's often referred to as learning. I have multiple tanks, I didn't learn squat about tanking from the leveling process... it was just smash everything... once I got to lvl 50, then 55, then I started learning about tanking... And I think that is the problem... The 1-50 story mode of leveling doesn't teach anything about how to end game play in HM FP or OPs. In other words, you want your hand held. Gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XiamaraSimi Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) ^^ This. In fact, how many people even level spec'd as a healer or a tank? Should i feel silly for actually leveling my 3 sins and 1 shadow as tanks? Maybe im weird, but especially as late as inqs get healers, i liked staying alive too much to go dps lol ( 3 of the 4 were pre-treek) Edited February 15, 2015 by XiamaraSimi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdatt Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 That 12xp was a nice feature, but it also allowed some to not learn the game and bypass simple mechanics. One of the benefits to leveling is that you learn those abilities, when and where to use them. This is wrong. In played vanguard tank from level 10 (about 2.5 years ago) to level 59, just tried tactics 2 days ago, and am doing fine as dps. Read Kwerty's guide, spent 15 min on the dummy, and good to go. But to the OP I agree. Did blood hunt HM with guild last night and staying out of circles is critical. Fun fight. Did a couple BH tacticals today and I was the only person even trying to avoid circles... I won't be GFing those anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Read Kwerty's guide Pretty much says it all. So instead of learning and running these you read a guide. Edited February 15, 2015 by Pirana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdatt Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Pretty much says it all. So instead of learning and running these you read a guide. To clarify by good to go I mean I can dummy parse almost 4k in 186 comm gear and have no trouble meeting the dps checks in this content. I didn't need dozens of hours to learn how the abilities synergize and be able to perform at near max level. Edited February 15, 2015 by bdatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pietrastor Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Should i feel silly for actually leveling my 3 sins and 1 shadow as tanks? Maybe im weird, but especially as late as inqs get healers, i liked staying alive too much to go dps lol ( 3 of the 4 were pre-treek) Inquisitors and Smugglers get their heals extremly late true, but tank companions (Khem and Corso) with at least sorta decent gear will be enough to last till then for dps. And we get both as our first companions so their gearing progresses naturally. I leveled both classes as dps, no Treek, and I was fine. Back on the main topic - Double XP or 12 XP doesn't matter. If people skip all leveling-trinity flashpoints (Foundry, Malestorm, Mandalorian Raiders etc) and/or all Heroics, most will not learn much about group play. Starting from level 30+ both the Flashpoints and some of the harder heroics introduce many mechanics that will be required in ops like circles, kill priority, interrupts, aggro-hold, healing spikes etc. 1 thing agree that the leveling won't really teach is eng-game rotations. It's a little bit better now with some core abilites being moved way earlier in Discipline path, but the number of new stuff being added is still overwhelming and stuff changes too often to get a good hold of any rotation that will be effective on end-game. That being said, I cannot understand why Bioware just won't let people que as tank if they're dps specced (or fake healers). Especially now with Discipline system being in palce, there is zero issue for the game to recognize player spec. And even if it's dps-geared player who only respecced, that will still be way better than current situation and in many cases most likely allow to compelte the content anyway (especially when talking about lowbie Flashpoints or GF ops with bolster). The only argument against it is allowing guilds/group of friends to queue as fake tanks/healers if they prefer so. But that can be easily bypassed simply by respecing again inside the ops/fp if the guild/friend group really wants to. Yet if they disabled ability to que as role players are not, most of these kind of stories simply wouldn't happen at all. Most of them happen because people que as wrong role, many new players don't even realize they did (all available roles are enabled by default in Finder when u make a character). So really, why allow people to que as incorrect role? Edited February 15, 2015 by Pietrastor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) To clarify by good to go I mean I can dummy parse almost 4k in 186 comm gear and have no trouble meeting the dps checks in this content. I didn't need dozens of hours to learn how the abilities synergize and be able to perform at near max level. Thank You. You are the perfect example. Edited February 15, 2015 by Pirana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TX_Angel Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Then you did it wrong. Its how I learned to tank just keeping the aggro and learning how to gather up mobs, especially if they are ranged mobs. Just keeping them off my companion. No where in the game does it make any effort to actually point out that you should even try that. That is the point... the game doesn't provide any way for someone who doesn't already know what the trinity is, to actually learn it... You had to have already known that was something to do, otherwise you see "hmm, I have a lightsaber, I guess I can kill stuff". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSaberMaster Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Here you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venomlash Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Now you realize this? OP, tacticals don't make people stupid. They just make stupid people get to max level without ever becoming not-stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrintoSFJ Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I have been playing this game since beta and that situation existed since then. i asked for tank in general chat a dps came out and said he can tank no problem but no he could not tank, i kick him from group and i get called "elitist jerk", ask for healer and dps sorc come up and says he has healing skill so it will be totally fine but no it was not alright. trust me, tactical did not make people stupid, stupid people were here all the time. 1st it was group finder that exposed them and then tactical exposed even more. and thanks to GF and Tactical we can now weed out these stupids and put them in ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Not tacticals, Easy Mode also known as 55HM in 180+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turajin Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) the game doesn't provide any way for someone who doesn't already know what the trinity is Trinity... isn't that the chick from the Matrix movies? In how far is that connected to Star Wars...? Edited February 15, 2015 by Turajin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Just look at how most people run through a tactical anyway...it's almost always a flat-out run through the FP just to get it done ASAP, more like yanking off a band-aid to avoid the pain than enjoying it or treating it like a practice run for the actual FP's The "actual" FPs. What would those be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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