The Leaderboards Today

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Suggest to me strategies to resolve the disparity we see in this data:

 

1) Without causing a new (greater) disparity in PvE;

2) Creating new disparities in PvP; and

3) With maintaining the diversity of class abilities.

 

In answering be mindful that there are 16,971 solo ranked characters and 5175 group ranked characters. I think it's safe to assume that most if not all group ranked characters also play in solo ranked. We're looking at a game mode that draws around 2-5% of the playerbase. So there's little justification for harming any other mode of play to deal with this.

 

Your whole argument is that Solo Ranked is broken because class balance cannot be made around 4 dps v 4 dps games. I disagree. It's just that simple. Everyone says "balance around the trinity" but I say, "Why?"

 

Who decided that trinity comp is the only viable comp? It's just the meta, doesn't mean that it's the only viable meta. It's no different than League of Legends, the meta comp is Support, Tank, AP mid, AD Carry, Jungler, but there have been plenty of competitive teams who have made thousands of dollars playing off-meta comps.

 

People are so closed minded in only considering the meta that they never dare venture outside of the box to consider what would happen if the meta were to change.

 

Our opinions differ, it happens.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[DomiSotto]

One thing I find odd is how people often speak against reducing the abilities number & how it will dumb down the game if Bio dares do it, but seem to gravitate to the easier to play classes with less binds, and they seem to be the most successful. Maybe we simply needs some bundling up of the skills on the Snipers and Mercs? I know it sounds brain-dead, but...?

 

The fact that we have more entries (careful! does not mean players, or, moreover, successful players!) in S6 than in S5 speaks to the idea that something Bio did made it easier to get into ranked.

 

I don't know. I want to have the exciting, booming ranked scene, something that provides me with both heroes and entertainment.

[helpmewin]

In every MMO classes should be balanced around group content. In our case - its group ranked. Balalncing around luck of yolo matchmaking is a joke. And this statistic is a joke. IMO. Edited October 9, 2015 by helpmewin

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

In every MMO classes should be balanced around group content. In our case - its group ranked. Balalncing around luck of yolo matchmaking is a joke. And this statistic is a joke. IMO.

 

Balancing around group content has NOTHING to do with the meta, at all. If running 2 healers, 1 dps, 1 tank proved to be more viable than running 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps, then the meta would change, simple as that.

 

For whatever reason, people think that the meta composition and group content go hand in hand when that's not even close to the case.

 

The meta is meta because it's what's proven to be most effective out of all possible combinations. If a new combination proves to be more powerful, the meta shifts, it's just that simple. So far, BioWare in PvE has only put out content where the best composition is 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps ( most of the time) and thus, that is what is run. Likewise, if BioWare did some crazy class changes for a new expansion, and the best possible comp in Group Ranked was suddenly 2 healers, 2 dps, the meta would shift yet again.

 

This is what people fail to see. Meta = Best possible comp with highest likelihood of success, period. Currently, that's the trinity comp, but it doesn't have to be, people are just short sighted and are afraid of trying things they are unfamiliar with.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

One thing I find odd is how people often speak against reducing the abilities number & how it will dumb down the game if Bio dares do it, but seem to gravitate to the easier to play classes with less binds, and they seem to be the most successful. Maybe we simply needs some bundling up of the skills on the Snipers and Mercs? I know it sounds brain-dead, but...?

 

The fact that we have more entries (careful! does not mean players, or, moreover, successful players!) in S6 than in S5 speaks to the idea that something Bio did made it easier to get into ranked.

 

I don't know. I want to have the exciting, booming ranked scene, something that provides me with both heroes and entertainment.

 

Thing is, snipers and mercs can actually be really good in Solo Ranked, they just have a playstyle that revolves around them. If I have a Sniper on my team, the plan for how to win the match will revolve around keeping the sniper alive and peeling targets off of them. They have the highest burst in the game, why would you not want to protect that player? But people are selfish and want to number farm, THIS is why Solo Ranked is broken. It has nothing to do with the classes and everything to do with the players. Snipers and Mercs requires support, Solo Ranked mob mentality is everyone for themselves and that's why those classes fall behind. Play a sniper in Solo Ranked. Tell me how your experience was when you had a team who played around you, aka keeping you alive, throwing you offheals, using smart cc on the enemy. Now tell me about your experience when you had team mates who played without you, and you'll see two polar opposite stories.

 

Same goes for any class really. If you have a sorc and protect and peel for them, they will be infinitely more useful than if they get no peels or protection. It's the mentality of the game mode that causes bad experiences, not the advanced class.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Anyway, I've said my piece. Gonna abandon this thread for a bit since it won't matter what is said here, people will still play selfishly in the masses.

 

Back to Class Questing

[Master-Nala]

Balancing around group content has NOTHING to do with the meta, at all. If running 2 healers, 1 dps, 1 tank proved to be more viable than running 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps, then the meta would change, simple as that.

 

For whatever reason, people think that the meta composition and group content go hand in hand when that's not even close to the case.

 

The meta is meta because it's what's proven to be most effective out of all possible combinations. If a new combination proves to be more powerful, the meta shifts, it's just that simple. So far, BioWare in PvE has only put out content where the best composition is 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps ( most of the time) and thus, that is what is run. Likewise, if BioWare did some crazy class changes for a new expansion, and the best possible comp in Group Ranked was suddenly 2 healers, 2 dps, the meta would shift yet again.

 

This is what people fail to see. Meta = Best possible comp with highest likelihood of success, period. Currently, that's the trinity comp, but it doesn't have to be, people are just short sighted and are afraid of trying things they are unfamiliar with.

 

That's true to a point, but it's also a reality. The game is balanced around the trinity. It doesn't have to be, but it is. To change that, you need a legitimate justification. Ranked, especially solo ranked, isn't it.

 

Could you balance around 4 DPS v 4 DPS? You probably could. You would break every other part of the game then. How do I know this? Tanks and Healers are force multipliers. They extend and increase the power of the damage dealers and each other. Together they make a team stronger than the sum of its parts and not by a little bit.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

That's true to a point, but it's also a reality. The game is balanced around the trinity. It doesn't have to be, but it is. To change that, you need a legitimate justification. Ranked, especially solo ranked, isn't it.

 

Could you balance around 4 DPS v 4 DPS? You probably could. You would break every other part of the game then. How do I know this? Tanks and Healers are force multipliers. They extend and increase the power of the damage dealers and each other. Together they make a team stronger than the sum of its parts and not by a little bit.

 

You don't even have to balance around 4 dps v 4 dps for Snipers and Mercs to be viable is the point that I'm trying to make, but at this point, I don't really care tbh. If they do away with Solo Ranked, then they do away with it, if they don't then they don't. It's their game, they're clearly going in whatever direction they want with it so what I have to say is irrelevant anyway.

[Master-Nala]

You don't even have to balance around 4 dps v 4 dps for Snipers and Mercs to be viable is the point that I'm trying to make, but at this point, I don't really care tbh. If they do away with Solo Ranked, then they do away with it, if they don't then they don't. It's their game, they're clearly going in whatever direction they want with it so what I have to say is irrelevant anyway.

 

The good news is that I would guess they won't get rid of solo ranked. They also won't do much to support it either. They haven't shown a great deal of interest in that regard.

 

I think Mercs and Snipers could use some help in all PvP content, so that might happen anyway.

[DomiSotto]

Thing is, snipers and mercs can actually be really good in Solo Ranked, they just have a playstyle that revolves around them.

 

Duly chastised. (Draws another circle around "Learn to Play with other People" and "Develop Better Spatial Awareness".) I will never get to ranked, but that's bread and butter for anything, from Esseles onward.

 

Please, go play those class stories!

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Please, go play those class stories!

 

Just finished

 

Come 4.0, I'll be Legendary!

[DomiSotto]

Grats

[Lhancelot]

You don't even have to balance around 4 dps v 4 dps for Snipers and Mercs to be viable is the point that I'm trying to make, but at this point, I don't really care tbh. If they do away with Solo Ranked, then they do away with it, if they don't then they don't. It's their game, they're clearly going in whatever direction they want with it so what I have to say is irrelevant anyway.

 

Yeah. I take breaks, come back, and then do the things in the game I find fun. I find myself getting frustrated as soon as i start to think how much better aspects of the game could be, that I do not like. That's when I start to get disgruntled. It's best to just stick with the parts of the game you enjoy, and if something is improved that you used to not like, yay, a bonus.

[consular_aerie]

What I would love to understand is why Sorcs> Operatives on the highest levels of play? On paper at least the Operative is by far the most powerful class that one could possibly imagine. Is it the range?

 

The sorc class is also simply more popular than operative. It's the lightsaber and the lightning ^^

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

The sorc class is also simply more popular than operative. It's the lightsaber and the lightning ^^

 

This.

 

I rolled mine just for lightning and ofc because lightsabers. Now lot of ppl think this kind of view is for child, i rembere thos ppl its still a sw game, even sometimes do not seems at all

[DomiSotto]

But Sage/Sorc never really uses the lightsabre. Heh, childish or not, that's my pet peeve with playing the AC. It's just funny to give a coveted lightsabre to the class and not do much with it.

 

But, aesthetically, is Sage/Sorc that much more preferable? Because the numbers are like 4 to 1?

[power-alex]

But Sage/Sorc never really uses the lightsabre. Heh, childish or not, that's my pet peeve with playing the AC. It's just funny to give a coveted lightsabre to the class and not do much with it.

 

But, aesthetically, is Sage/Sorc that much more preferable? Because the numbers are like 4 to 1?

 

I wish at least some attacks came from the saber. Like, send some telecinetic / electric attacks by waving lightsaber energetically like guardians blade rush for example...

Edited October 12, 2015 by power-alex

[jedcjedcjedc]

there were a bunch of sorcs in the bottom 100 as well. you would think something that OP couldn't possibly have that many poor players but people only look at the top

[DomiSotto]

Uhm I specifically posted 3 stes of 100 players, top 100, lowest 100 and middle-tier 100 at random.

 

If you look at the numbers, top vs lowest is not proportional per AC. Color assignment is red for 0 to 0.6 (red); 0.6 to 1.4 (green) and >1.4 - blue for the ratio of Top 100/Low 100

 

Shadow vs Assassin: 11 to 20

Sage vs Sorcerer: 36 vs 26

Guardian vs Juggernaut: 7 vs 13

Sentinel vs Marauder: 7 vs 7

Commando vs Mercenary: 1 vs 3

Vanguard vs Powertech: 27 vs 16

Gunslinger vs Sniper: 1 vs 4

Scoundrel vs Operative: 10 vs 11

Edited October 12, 2015 by DomiSotto

[AlrikFassbauer]

One thing I find odd is how people often speak against reducing the abilities number & how it will dumb down the game if Bio dares do it, but seem to gravitate to the easier to play classes with less binds, and they seem to be the most successful.

 

Interesting conclusion.

 

What still makes me scratching m head in sheer disbelief is that people are still insisting on Gunslingers & Commandos being *very* viable in Group Ranked - yet NO-ONE playing them. There is a looooooong search going on for both in the top 100-200 if you really want to find them ...

 

To me it's like saying that an Formula 1 racing car is the fastest car available - yet no-one using it on an motorhighway.

 

I just don't get it why so many peopl insist on the viability of - my favourite example : Gunslingers - yet no-one playing them.

 

What is it with this class that no-one plays it ? Can someone from the top 100 players answer this to me, please ?

 

Thing is, snipers and mercs can actually be really good in Solo Ranked, they just have a playstyle that revolves around them. If I have a Sniper on my team, the plan for how to win the match will revolve around keeping the sniper alive and peeling targets off of them. They have the highest burst in the game, why would you not want to protect that player? But people are selfish and want to number farm, THIS is why Solo Ranked is broken. It has nothing to do with the classes and everything to do with the players. Snipers and Mercs requires support, Solo Ranked mob mentality is everyone for themselves and that's why those classes fall behind. Play a sniper in Solo Ranked. Tell me how your experience was when you had a team who played around you, aka keeping you alive, throwing you offheals, using smart cc on the enemy. Now tell me about your experience when you had team mates who played without you, and you'll see two polar opposite stories.

 

Same goes for any class really. If you have a sorc and protect and peel for them, they will be infinitely more useful than if they get no peels or protection. It's the mentality of the game mode that causes bad experiences, not the advanced class.

 

So that's why no-one plays Gunslingers or Commandoes ? Because other classes need less support ?

Doe this imply that people prefer to play - my favourite example : PTs because people are selfish ?

Edited October 15, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[teclado]

Hey Alrik, I see snipers and gunslinger at 34, 45, 40, 41, 48, and 52 group ranking. I think you may have been looking at the solo rankings instead of group.

 

For solo, yeah it is quite barren: 89, 131, 173, 246, 312

[Campaigner]

Without cross-server the leaderboards are essentially "who can game their own server's ranked community the hardest." Edited October 16, 2015 by Campaigner

[Technohic]

Thing is, snipers and mercs can actually be really good in Solo Ranked, they just have a playstyle that revolves around them. If I have a Sniper on my team, the plan for how to win the match will revolve around keeping the sniper alive and peeling targets off of them. They have the highest burst in the game, why would you not want to protect that player? But people are selfish and want to number farm, THIS is why Solo Ranked is broken. It has nothing to do with the classes and everything to do with the players. Snipers and Mercs requires support, Solo Ranked mob mentality is everyone for themselves and that's why those classes fall behind. Play a sniper in Solo Ranked. Tell me how your experience was when you had a team who played around you, aka keeping you alive, throwing you offheals, using smart cc on the enemy. Now tell me about your experience when you had team mates who played without you, and you'll see two polar opposite stories.

 

Same goes for any class really. If you have a sorc and protect and peel for them, they will be infinitely more useful than if they get no peels or protection. It's the mentality of the game mode that causes bad experiences, not the advanced class.

 

People also want to attack. I'd argue as a slinger, I am at a huge disadvantage moving in on a target compared to trying to funnel them in with clean LOS and stealth detection going. When moving, you try to stay in the back as ranged but you are wide open for stealth coming up behind and chances are, your team will never look back untiluntil youre dead

[AlrikFassbauer]

But Sage/Sorc never really uses the lightsabre.

 

It's called a "stat stick" for a reason.

 

People also want to attack.

 

This complies with my old theory that PvP players - especially imperial side players - are more aggressive players.

More aggressive than PvE players, and imperial side players more aggressive than republic side players.

 

Playing imp side is like getting a free ticket to play a brutal, sadisatic and dominating play style without getting punished - unlike in RL - whereas the republic side has rather the feeling of playing defensively. And who wants to play defensively ? That's boring.

 

In my opinion, that would be an explanation of the imperial side to be so much dominating over everything else : You just don't have to restrain your negative feelings playing on that side. You can just unleash all of your dark sides without getting punished for it - unlike in RL.

Edited October 16, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer