BIOWARE MOTO : When in doubt, nerf pyro

[TACeMossie]

they could at least finally fix flame sweep/explosive surge to apply the dot to all targets, especially with the changes coming to pyro/assault next patch. this would give pyro at least a decent boost in heavy aoe compared to the crazy dps snipers/sorcs have right now by just spamming 1 long channel over and over.

but then again they force us to replace RS with rapid shots, so a lot of it would just regain that lost dps only anyway.

 

Technically Flame Sweep always worked. Explosive surge still doesn't on the PTS though

 

Anyway, the proper use of resources in 3.1.1 is to have every second flamethrower only have 2 stacks in a single target rotation, and swapping the third Flaming Fist for a Flame Sweep in an AoE rotation as to have both flamethrowers @ 3 stacks.

 

So Single Target is

 

SCORCH

INCENDIARY MISSILE

FLAMETHROWER

FLAMING FIST

RAIL SHOT

FLAME BURST

IMMOLATE

FLAME BURST

RAPID SHOTS

 

FLAMING FIST

INCENDIARY MISSILE

FLAMETHROWER

RAPID SHOTS

RAIL SHOT

FLAMING FIST

IMMOLATE

FLAME BURST

RAPID SHOTS

 

and AoE is

 

SCORCH

INCENDIARY MISSILE

FLAMETHROWER

FLAMING FIST

RAIL SHOT

FLAME BURST

IMMOLATE

FLAME SWEEP

RAPID SHOTS

 

RAPID SHOTS

INCENDIARY MISSILE

FLAMETHROWER

FLAMING FIST

RAIL SHOT

FLAME SWEEP

IMMOLATE

FLAME SWEEP

RAPID SHOTS

Edited March 3, 2015 by TACeMossie

[cs_zoltan]

Anyway, the proper use of resources in 3.1.1 is to have every second flamethrower only have 2 stacks in a single target rotation, and swapping the third Flaming Fist for a Flame Sweep in an AoE rotation as to have both flamethrowers @ 3 stacks.

 

How ***, way to go BW...

[meisterjedi]

what do you mean by flame sweep always worked? it does not applie cgc to all targets hit for sure.

 

My comment about RS is in regard to a massive aoe rotation.

 

My calculations were from launch of 3.0 under the assumption cgc would be applied to all (and the nature of double ticks with the right timing). I came to the conclusion that as of 5 targets you just use DFA and FT on cd. all other abilities are inferior dmg wise to flame sweep so you use it as much as heat allows. So all other abilities are either rapid shots or immolate and (untill patch) RS,as they basically cost 0 (or -3) as well if you consider the 0 cost flame sweep after their use.

 

The 5 targets would likely be false since cgc only applies to 1 target, so I would need to take a second look there

 

 

And btw DFA and scorching other targets removes most IMs in AOE stituations anyway. even on 2 targets and even more so with the increased heat consumption. unless the nerf to flaming fist makes it deal less dmg, than IM next patch that is (don't forget to factor in the likely bonus tick on cgc).

Edited March 3, 2015 by meisterjedi

[Melon_Lord]

Volatile Igniter says: Flame Burst, Flaming Fist, and Flame Sweep trigger CGC, *If it is active*, on all affected targets.

 

I took that as it only refreshing the burning if the burning was already active on a target hit by said abilities. Though if it meant simply the cylinder has to be on for this effect to happen then yeah I guess it's broken.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Melon_Lord

[TACeMossie]

what do you mean by flame sweep always worked? it does not applie cgc to all targets hit for sure.

 

My comment about RS is in regard to a massive aoe rotation.

 

My calculations were from launch of 3.0 under the assumption cgc would be applied to all (and the nature of double ticks with the right timing). I came to the conclusion that as of 5 targets you just use DFA and FT on cd. all other abilities are inferior dmg wise to flame sweep so you use it as much as heat allows. So all other abilities are either rapid shots or immolate and (untill patch) RS,as they basically cost 0 (or -3) as well if you consider the 0 cost flame sweep after their use.

 

The 5 targets would likely be false since cgc only applies to 1 target, so I would need to take a second look there

 

 

And btw DFA and scorching other targets removes most IMs in AOE stituations anyway. even on 2 targets and even more so with the increased heat consumption. unless the nerf to flaming fist makes it deal less dmg, than IM next patch that is (don't forget to factor in the likely bonus tick on cgc).

 

Oh an extreme AoE rotation is:

 

Flaming Fist every 30 seconds for set bonus

Immolate on cooldown for free flame sweep

Flamethrower on cooldown

Flame Sweep when you have spare heat (2x Flame Sweep with Engulfing Flames + 2x CGC > 1x DFA)

 

Anyway, preliminary patch notes say it will be fixed.

Edited March 3, 2015 by TACeMossie

[meisterjedi]

glad they fix it.

 

would need to check my numbers again, but don't remember DFA to be so bad, that you would not want to use it ever.

[TACeMossie]

glad they fix it.

 

would need to check my numbers again, but don't remember DFA to be so bad, that you would not want to use it ever.

 

Well its a case of:

 

Death From Above: 0.5333 x Tech Bonus + [5 - 11] * 63.7/3 damage (x6), 25xPi units area covered, 63.25% damage multiplier due to Kinetic damage

 

Flame Sweep (+25% damage utility): 175.175-334.425 + 0.8 x Tech Bonus, 49xPi units area covered, 100% damage because elemental damage

 

Combustible Gas Cylinder: 0.22295 x Tech Bonus + 71

 

Total Damage for DFA = 2.024 x Tech Bonus + 402.9025 - 886.3855

 

Total Damage for 2x Flame Sweep: 1.6 x Tech Bonus + 350.35 - 668.85

Total Damage for 2x CGC: 0.4459 x Tech Bonus + 142

 

Average Flame Sweep damage over a GCD from this is 651.6 + 1.02295 x Tech Bonus, while the average DFA damage/GCD is 644.644 + 1.012 x Tech Bonus - meaning Flame Sweep is ~1% stronger, or in Execute range its ~11% stronger. Also note Flame Sweep has a 3% higher crit chance which I didn't account for.

 

Note, all this assumes no other debuffs (e.g. 5% tech boost, 7% elemental boost, 10% AoE boost, or sundered armor)

 

TL;DR

 

Flame Sweep with Bracer Propellant + Engulfing Flames is 1% stronger normally, 11% stronger in the execute range, and covers 96% more area when compared to Mortar Volley, as well as having a higher crit chance (3% higher). In exchange, it is a melee attack (have fun trying to use it!)

[Brunner_Venda]

Numbers aside, the pyro class game play is clunky and the spec has zero defenses outside of kolto overload, which most players just burst through.

 

Getting off a PFT cleave against other players is a lucky break - most will just bump or stun you out of it. Waiting until your resolve is full to actually get one attack off is asinine.

 

Scorch is a crying shame of a joke compared to cell burst.

 

This spec is bad and full of fail. The designer should be packing up his desk.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Brunner_Venda

[ThomasCool]

Just a quick question.... WTH did they do in the last-ish PTS patch?

Removing the free Ion Pulse from rail shot seems like a pretty strange design choice. It now pretty much makes it impossible to get 3 stacks for every pulse cannon. First they did something like this (not quite as bad) to DF when they made quickdraw almost too expensive to use. Now they're doing the same thing to Plasma. What is the point of procs if you can't use them? I almost preferred it when they over nerfed coefficients instead of weird rotational changes.

I just wonder, what rotation do they run internally with this setup now. (I'm not even asking from a dps perspective, just rotationally). It seems very clunky.

I understand Plasma was a relatively powerful spec (with long setup time and no AoE dmg reduction - still boggles my mind), but that's what the coefficients are for.

./sigh

- Please listen to Kwerty, he usually doesn't try to suggest anything OP

T

[TACeMossie]

- Please listen to Kwerty, he usually doesn't try to suggest anything OP

 

Key word, usually

[ThomasCool]

Yea, i know, that's why i added that .

T.

[TACeMossie]

Ooh I know how to fix plasmatech!

 

Pulse cannon has no cooldown, costs 18 energy, procs 2-piece, and spreads and refreshes all DoTs - as well as applying plasma cell. also change Fire Pulse + Shockstrike into DoTs and make Shockstrike proc the 6-piece (auto-crit pulse cannon)!

 

Then we'll be half as good as Force Storm!

[Ethician]

In all seriousness I ask why would anybody play a plasmatech after this BS goes live? There are only what, 3, stationary bosses? And the huge AOE DR AP gets is irreplaceable...

 

So my question is: Where would you use this new and shiddy, I mean shiny, plasmatech?

 

And Bioware, after you've been so kind in fixing Powertech's 6-piece set bonus and bringing Plasmatech's damage and ammo management to levels previously unknown, I would kindly request you fixing AP as well. In my opinion, its damage far outperforms all other melee classes in this and other MMOs.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Ethician

[meisterjedi]

are the CGC coefficiants per tick or for all 3 ticks?

 

tick comparison:

 

FS DFA FS - Ticks at 0, 3, 4.5 sec (likely double tick at 7.5) 3 ticks

FS FS FS FS - Ticks at 0, 1.5, 3, 4.5 (likely double tick at 7.5) 4 ticks

 

this is just an example to try and illustrate my way of thinking about CGC, and absolutely isn't optimal for either scenario, so don't bother with it too much. with the correct spacing between FS (or any CGC attack for single target considerations) you can squeeze out a lot of extra dmg.

 

Didn't think about execute phase possibly alternating the AOE priority before, thanks for putting a finger on it

Edited March 5, 2015 by meisterjedi

[tacharua]

how does ap outperform all other melee classes except at the beginning because of its burst, which is being toned down a little due to no shoulder cannon spam, its not like its 300k dmg better at the end of all fights maybe on a couple yeah Edited March 6, 2015 by tacharua

[Krev_Roo]

how does ap outperform all other melee classes except at the beginning because of its burst, which is being toned down a little due to no shoulder cannon spam, its not like its 300k dmg better at the end of all fights maybe on a couple yeah

Personally I think,

It's not necessarily that it is outperforming "all other melee" but more so the problem that it outperforms the Plasmatech/pyro Which as a DOT spec (BW says this is their ideology) should outperform the burst spec that is Tactics/AP. Let me give you an idea from my personal average parse numbers on a 1.5mil.

Note these are averages over many different parses and only done on my Vanguard, as my pyro isn't geared, and as far as I know Pyro still benefits from their broken set bonus so their numbers will likely be much higher than Plasmatechs both live and on the PTS:

 

Live

Tactics: 4500 (I'm mostly surge based on live)

Plasmatech: 4650

 

On PTS with new changes

Tactics: 4560 (This was with an alacrity build between 600 and 711 alacrity)

Plasmatech: 4360

 

Mind you me this is after playing around between surge and alacrity, I didn't change around my crit power total numbers at all.

Plasmatech's new numbers were almost constantly between 4280 and 4390. That was with messing around with full alacrity(no surge), full surge(no alacrity) build type things. alacrity was constantly a bit higher than the more surge builds. Hell I even tried using different adrenals to see if it made much of a difference.

 

In no way should the more mobile burst spec that arguably has waayyy better passivive protection and cds be doing that much better than a DOT spec that is mostly stationary with its giant channeled move.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Krev_Roo

[Ethician]

how does ap outperform all other melee classes except at the beginning because of its burst, which is being toned down a little due to no shoulder cannon spam, its not like its 300k dmg better at the end of all fights maybe on a couple yeah

 

Oh man, sorry to confuse you, I though the sarcasm in it was self-evident especially when referring to other MMOs.

[Ethician]

Live

Tactics: 4500 (I'm mostly surge based on live)

Plasmatech: 4650

 

On PTS with new changes

Tactics: 4560 (This was with an alacrity build between 600 and 711 alacrity)

Plasmatech: 4360

 

And how was your ammo management?

 

Did you have identical gear? Did you use the same rotation or Kwerty's updated one?

 

Either way, it's an impressive coup de grâce Bioware has pulled off here.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Ethician

[Krev_Roo]

And how was your ammo management?

 

Did you have identical gear? Did you use the same rotation or Kwerty's updated one?

 

Either way, it's an impressive coup de grâce Bioware has pulled off here.

 

Yeah for the most part my gear was the same my ear and implants are resurrected. All I did was switch around my enhs and switch out my augs for accuracy type deal. All my mods and enhancements are 198, and Ressurected armorings and barrel, they generally stayed the same. <--<* can't find the logs where I did the better ones on average with Plasmatech.

 

As far as ammo management goes I found it really difficult at first but found a decent rhythm. I'm not good at thinking about a strict rotation so I probably didn't do that great. With the heroic addition to the reserve cell it makes it easier to keep rotation if you **** up. I also found that using the recharge one if you end up around 30 cells to be sufficient enough to continue rotation. Having 600-711 alacrity along with the passive regen of the spec was a large help, it's just that you end up having to add a hammer shot or two in the normal rotation between Pulse Cannons if you want to be frugal as you would in a "normal fight". Shock strike and Fire Pulse, because they consume less when used the cells would always be regenerated at the same or better cell number after use, this holds true for Pulse Cannon as well. HiB, Plasmatize, and Ion Pulse would usually be the culprits to mess up the cell count the most.

All done on pts

http://swtor-parser.elasticbeanstalk.com/parser/view/10763 <-- This is me messing around with full builds like 1000surge to 1000alacrity. all power to 500crit. Also messed around with adrenals I think in this one. Average is lower than I remember haha.

http://swtor-parser.elasticbeanstalk.com/parser/view/10766 <-- this was the Tactics one with the 591 and 711 alacrity builds respectively (Can't find the rest I did with this) if you were interested

http://swtor-parser.elasticbeanstalk.com/parser/view/10768 <-- and this is one of the alacrity builds I later settled on. It was average as I said I can't find the other log with more of this build.

 

Kwerty or anyone can read through them if they want. I know for certain that I almost always delayed Pulse Cannon in order to have the three stacks if I didn't have them, it might not be ideal rotation but was just what I shot for... Also I think Plasmatize had a lot of down time in some because I would get consumed with getting stacks and forgetting to check if it was up, for me that is the hardest part about not having that second free Ion pulse I just forget about the damned DOT.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Krev_Roo

[Slyde-Asera]

Why do people say "well Flame thrower is getting a buff". Yes it is getting a 10% increase of damage to a burning target, But the last time I checked on PTS as compared to live the base damage is lower on flame thrower on PTS ( sneaking BioWare )......In my pvp gear

PTS base damage 4029 3 stacks 5842 damage

Live base damage 4226 3 stacks 6128 damage

 

Now to get that 10% increase my target needs to be burning so..........when I us Flame thrower in pvp on a cluster I have to make sure the whole group has a dot on them ?? lol if not then ill be doing less damage on the aoe then before, which was already a joke lol. So in my eyes this is a 100% nerf to everything as far as pvp goes. I mean on single target damage yes its a slight increase but a total fail on the Aoe. I mean this is what the move is made for Aoe not single target damage. I never use this on single target in pvp, I rather use flameburst and move around then stand there and cast for 3 seconds. Now when I see a nice cluster yes let it rip. This is such a let down, im one of the few who plays this on my server. But now ill prob not even play this class anymore because I don't wanna hop on the AP train. What a epic fail for Pyro

[TACeMossie]

Why do people say "well Flame thrower is getting a buff". Yes it is getting a 10% increase of damage to a burning target, But the last time I checked on PTS as compared to live the base damage is lower on flame thrower on PTS ( sneaking BioWare )......In my pvp gear

PTS base damage 4029 3 stacks 5842 damage

Live base damage 4226 3 stacks 6128 damage

 

Now to get that 10% increase my target needs to be burning so..........when I us Flame thrower in pvp on a cluster I have to make sure the whole group has a dot on them ?? lol if not then ill be doing less damage on the aoe then before, which was already a joke lol. So in my eyes this is a 100% nerf to everything as far as pvp goes. I mean on single target damage yes its a slight increase but a total fail on the Aoe. I mean this is what the move is made for Aoe not single target damage. I never use this on single target in pvp, I rather use flameburst and move around then stand there and cast for 3 seconds. Now when I see a nice cluster yes let it rip. This is such a let down, im one of the few who plays this on my server. But now ill prob not even play this class anymore because I don't wanna hop on the AP train. What a epic fail for Pyro

 

Quick check - did you remember to go to the trainer and learn the level 60 version of flamethrower?

[llevenseven]

Quick check - did you remember to go to the trainer and learn the level 60 version of flamethrower?

 

 

Same here with Flamethrower, I chcecked this before and I can confirm lower base damage. I always have a free copy my powertech from LIVE.

[TACeMossie]

Same here with Flamethrower, I chcecked this before and I can confirm lower base damage. I always have a free copy my powertech from LIVE.

 

What I mean is on the PTS, you will find your flamethrower is level 54-55 instead of level 60. Meaning you have to learn the level 60 skill again to have its full damage potential.

[llevenseven]

What I mean is on the PTS, you will find your flamethrower is level 54-55 instead of level 60. Meaning you have to learn the level 60 skill again to have its full damage potential.

 

PTS is off, unfortunately. I wish you are right

 

Edit: You are right Kwerty, thanks for point .)

Edited March 10, 2015 by llevenseven

[Ethician]

I am completely depressed. Plasmatech now does consistently 300--400 DPS less than before using Kwerty's old rotation with HS in place of IP as ammo management dictates. Additionally, shoulder cannon is now difficult to play if you don't have a macro keyboard/mouse. I wonder which moron came up with the idea of having icd = gcd.

 

Utterly disgusted, switching to mando.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Ethician