wadecounty Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Two things: 1) Tanks: If your DPS pulls he or she could still be doing his or her job. At this point in the game, a DPS doing an optimal rotation will generate more threat/second than an equivalently geared tank doing their optimal rotation. Even with threat drops thrown in this can still happen. When your DPS's gear is better than the tanks this only amplifies the problem. Guess what though tanks, you have taunts for this purpose! Two of them! Not using your taunts as a tank is like a DPS not using his or her offensive cooldowns. They're tools in your tool box. Use them. Also, as a pertinent side note, asking your DPS to not go all out at any point in a fight so you don't ever lose aggro is just poor form. The higher your DPS's threat when they pull, the more threat you steal from them when you taunt off. Don't get me wrong: there are times where DPS absolutely cannot pull off. If a boss is going to turn and cleave the raid causing a wipe, DPS should tread lightly. But most of the time there is very little more than a bit more damage going out for the second or two that the DPS has aggro on the boss. (NrDLeipe, I can only see your point if your DPS taunts off you. Other than that you are very much in the wrong not to taunt off them and let them die. Tanking takes maturity. I suggest you explore other roles in the game. There are too many factors that play into threat for you to assume they are not managing their threat properly.) 2) Please, as someone who has been kicked from flashpoints multiple times, take time to talk through problems before you kick someone. More often than not, kicking someone from group wastes everyone's time. If someone is clearly trolling, and everyone agrees they are sabotaging the groups progress, by all means kick them. But if someone is doing something that you perceive as wrong or bad form, it may just be that they don't know better; it also may be that you are doing something wrong. If you want your group to go exactly as you expect it, get a group of 3 other buddies and queue up. Otherwise you are randoming in with people who may have waited an hour just for the chance to go through a flashpoint; and may be at a different skill level than you. Be patient with people. Try to understand why they play the way they do. Please, think and talk before you kick. Sorry so long; too much to say... :/ A DPS pulling is never doing their job, but especially in flashpoints as stated in the OP. The problem isn't gaining aggro on the 1 mob the DPS picked up, its getting all the other trash as well. Guess what happens when a DPS pulls, he gets initial aggro on everything... and since the DPS isn't a tank, he's not going to try to hold it all, so now some of the mobs will scatter to your healer, and now you have to clean up the mess and often have to burn an aoe taunt, which isn't available on every single pull. Whereas if the tank goes in first, he gets initial aggro on everything, can use a couple good aoe attacks or saber reflect, and its smooth sailing. Now obviously the OP isn't the best tank, but let's not spread misinformation and pretend DPS pulling makes anyone's job easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seafreeish Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 We make it to the first boss, I pull and start building threat on boss. He Goes balls out Don't know what to say. He brought up "pulling" in both senses of the term. I was also addressing topics that had developed since the OP, which IMHO are more disturbing than the OP. My overall point was that DPS pulling aggro from a tank can be the result of a number of factors. Sometimes it's a DPS problem. More often than not though, it's a tank problem. (Problem, as in a problem that tanks have to learn to solve, bc the numbers are clearly in the DPS favor as far as threat goes.) If you consider any part of my post misinformed, please quote it directly and correct me. I'm currently working on the final bosses of each current operation in HM and could honestly use the instruction of better players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NrDLeipe Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Two things: 1) Tanks: If your DPS pulls he or she could still be doing his or her job. At this point in the game, a DPS doing an optimal rotation will generate more threat/second than an equivalently geared tank doing their optimal rotation. Even with threat drops thrown in this can still happen. When your DPS's gear is better than the tanks this only amplifies the problem. Guess what though tanks, you have taunts for this purpose! Two of them! Not using your taunts as a tank is like a DPS not using his or her offensive cooldowns. They're tools in your tool box. Use them. Also, as a pertinent side note, asking your DPS to not go all out at any point in a fight so you don't ever lose aggro is just poor form. The higher your DPS's threat when they pull, the more threat you steal from them when you taunt off. Don't get me wrong: there are times where DPS absolutely cannot pull off. If a boss is going to turn and cleave the raid causing a wipe, DPS should tread lightly. But most of the time there is very little more than a bit more damage going out for the second or two that the DPS has aggro on the boss. (NrDLeipe, I can only see your point if your DPS taunts off you. Other than that you are very much in the wrong not to taunt off them and let them die. Tanking takes maturity. I suggest you explore other roles in the game. There are too many factors that play into threat for you to assume they are not managing their threat properly.) 2) Please, as someone who has been kicked from flashpoints multiple times, take time to talk through problems before you kick someone. More often than not, kicking someone from group wastes everyone's time. If someone is clearly trolling, and everyone agrees they are sabotaging the groups progress, by all means kick them. But if someone is doing something that you perceive as wrong or bad form, it may just be that they don't know better; it also may be that you are doing something wrong. If you want your group to go exactly as you expect it, get a group of 3 other buddies and queue up. Otherwise you are randoming in with people who may have waited an hour just for the chance to go through a flashpoint; and may be at a different skill level than you. Be patient with people. Try to understand why they play the way they do. Please, think and talk before you kick. Sorry so long; too much to say... :/ Lol a dps pulling is wrong, pulling in my way is theres a pack and some crazy dps starts running into them/attacking before the tank does. You see pulling as an aggro loss wich is not the case . Pulling = starting the fight So in my case opening with a taunt is wrong a waste of a taunt and if you think i should use taunt when some dps pulls you clearly have no clue what taunt actually does Edited February 17, 2015 by NrDLeipe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seafreeish Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 You see pulling as an aggro loss wich is not the case . I'm sorry. In MMOs, people say "pulling" off a tank to indicate the tank lost aggro. So in my case opening with a taunt is wrong a waste of a taunt and if you think i should use taunt when some dps pulls you clearly have no clue what taunt actually does Actually, if your DPS opens on a mob/boss before you do and you taunt off them, you will generate a relatively high amount of threat. Taunts are threat multipliers. Maybe you should read up on how taunts work. I found this link almost immediately: http://angryjoeshow.com/ajsa/topic/19491-how-taunt-works-in-swtor/ I don't condone this behavior of DPS engaging mobs/bosses before the tanks, but if you're stuck in a situation where this has happened, be the adult in the group and try to clean up after their mistake. Use a taunt. Some day you might play with someone better than you who is angry at what you're doing, and maybe they'll cut you a break. Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadecounty Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I don't condone this behavior of DPS engaging mobs/bosses before the tanks, but if you're stuck in a situation where this has happened, be the adult in the group and try to clean up after their mistake. Use a taunt. Some day you might play with someone better than you who is angry at what you're doing, and maybe they'll cut you a break. Who knows? I don't agree with this, except if its a one off. If DPS consistently pull first, I will first ask them to please let the tank (or me if I'm the tank) pull first. If it continues, I whisper the healer not to heal them, then let them die, until they stop doing it. This has never failed to work for me. Just trying to constantly pick up the pieces and clean up after them means they're just going to keep doing it and learn nothing. I would hope if I do something stupid, people don't just stay silent and let me continue to be stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) My point was that this thread was started by a tank who obviously doesn't know how to tank complaining about a dps that didn't know how to manage threat. In my experience, people who concentrate on playing their own role well rarely have to complain about groups like this on the forums. I had a tank the other night who would only hit one mob at a time on trash pulls. We had some deaths, but we managed because the rest of us made up for his mistakes. So, now you're saying that I should learn to manage threat? Do you know how it goes? From 30 stacks of Fury: Bloodthirst -> Frenzy -> Berserk -> Force Charge + Deadly Saber -> Battering Assault -> Rupture -> Annihilate -> Force Rend -> Ravage -> Dual Saber Throw (proc) -> I tank See? I'm not even trying. I do somewhere around 1900 dps. How can I change this so that tank gets easier threat management? Should I put Obfuscate somewhere? Force Camo after Annihilate? Edited February 18, 2015 by Halinalle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDeanOU Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 So, now you're saying that I should learn to manage threat? Do you know how it goes? From 30 stacks of Fury: Bloodthirst -> Frenzy -> Berserk -> Force Charge + Deadly Saber -> Battering Assault -> Rupture -> Annihilate -> Force Rend -> Ravage -> Dual Saber Throw (proc) -> I tank See? I'm not even trying. I do somewhere around 1900 dps. How can I change this so that tank gets easier threat management? Should I put Obfuscate somewhere? Force Camo after Annihilate? No, that's not even close to what I am saying. I have no idea how you got that from my comments. I'm saying that the tank who started this thread by complaining about dps that go "balls out" subsequently demonstrated that he was a bad tank. Likewise, I find that most people who complain about people who play other roles usually aren't very good at their own role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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