Those DPS who pull, go balls out and then blame the tank when you wipe....

[RDeanOU]

Gaurd goes on the healer. Period, if you're having to gaurd a DPS they're a sh***ty DPS. If you pull aaggro unintentionally as a DPS you ease DPS. Doesn't matter if the tank sucks or not. Let them regain control. They can take more punishment than you and them getting hit requires the healer to heal less. Healer is more important than a DPS always. Healer goes down you all die. Healer gets attacked and their health drops too much, they have to spam themselves and can't heal anyone else. Then one guy dies. Then the tank dies. Then you all die. Seen it a million times. This guy seems like the type of person I was writing in the original post.

 

I can't believe this kind of ignorance is still so prevalent. I have played every role and just reading the tool tip properly should make it clear that guard in PVE is best utilized on a DPS. The damage reduction is insignificant, which makes the ability all about a threat reduction. Healing threat is a non-issue. The only time a healer will pull aggro is if NO ONE is hitting the mob and in that instance Guard won't matter. Guard doesn't help the healer.....it doesn't. It does give your best DPS the ability to worry a little less about ripping aggro and that is a good thing.

 

If you think Guard goes on the healer in PVE then you need to re-read the tool tip for the ability.

[RDeanOU]

I'd like to point out something: He states the DPS jumps in and goes all out, and then the OP (Tank) AoE taunts after this.

 

THEN OP STATES THAT THE DPS BUILDS SO MUCH AGGRO DURING THE TAUNT THAT WHEN IT WEARS OFF THE MOBS GO BACK TO THE DPS

 

Dear OP

 

Taunt is a multiplicative threat increase as well. If you can't hold aggro on a DPS thats run out of burst after you've taunted over his threat, you suck.

 

Note: The DPS shouldn't have been pulling before the tank, but regardless, the wipes there are your fault for not being able to hold aggro at all.

 

This too. OP doesn't know how Guard works and doesn't know how his taunt works.

 

OP doesn't know how to tank.

[GadgetDon]

Maybe I've been misinformed, but here's what I do as a tank (in PVE):

 

Low to mid levels (say, under 50) I guard the healer. The healer may not pull as much aggro as dps, but when a DPS aggros a strong or some normals this can be resolved by their normal task - kill the opponents.The healer, however, can't do anything about an attacker except say "hey, can someone kill this guy trying to kill me?" unless they step out of their role. If we haven't been stupid and aggroed multiple spawns, I can keep aggro on the big threats.

 

55+, I almost never guard the healer. I'll usually start off with the imperfect gear check of "who has highest health points", and as things go along if one DPS is pulling aggro from me, I'll switch.

 

As for DPS pulling - I used to be very strict on "I'm the tank I go first why did you go ahead". But for trash mobs, particularly if it's level 60s running a 55 HM, I don't make a big deal of it unless it's causing problems. If there are problems, that's different. And I have, on a couple occassions, whispered the other team members to just stand back as the DPS charges. "We figured you planned on soloing the flashpoint".

 

And as healer, yes, I make my displeasure clear when people assume I'll handle their out-of-combat regen or charge into battle significantly hurt.

[Snean]

looks like you never try hard fp as healer.

trooper and sniper trash mob hit 17-19k to full 192 healer.

 

usually tank and dpser kill mdd adds in frond of pack. Rdd adds go to healer and very fast kill him. That's why tank need guard healer on trash. Or tank need keep agro on rdd adds (very few tanks do this).

[danielearley]

I'm sure this kind of stuff has been brought up before, but this just ticked me off. So I just ran hard mode Athiss with this DPS jugg, I quit early. I play a Jugg myself, level 56 tank, in full 55 gear. I've played MMO's since Burning Crusade came out, and have played all roles in several MMO's and I was under the impression that the tanks job is to tank and the DPS is to kill things. That's how the dynamic works. This DPS jugg immediately starts running ahead of me and pulling all the groups. He does this for more than half the pulls, what results is this. He pulls, blows his load and builds a bunch of aggro, naturally, I dive in and taunt, smash, start sweeping slashing. He has so much aggro on me from pulling that the taunt drops and then they go straight after him, The healer is having to spam him to keep him up, when I finally get aggro back on everything, said healer is so focused on him that he doesn't even notice my health is dropping like a bolder in water, I proceed to either have to pop all my crap or die, group almost wipes. We make it to the first boss, I pull and start building threat on boss. He Goes balls out, which is fine on a boss, however the adds pop. Neither of the DPS go for the adds, I'm beating on the boss and see them making a bee line for the healer and begin to pound on him. Seeing they aren't doing what they're supposed to I have to jump over and grab threat, DPS jugg keeps pounding on boss, pull threat, healer busy healing him self, dies, then I die, then group wipes. DPS jugg then proceeds to tell me "Don't think you can tank hard mode flashpoints" even though I've been doing that for the last 6 levels with no problems what so ever. At this point, I'm naturally annoyed and tell him to stop pulling and to ease DPS if he pulls threat (the things I was taught as a DPS in every MMO I've played). He proceeds to rage on me. I quit, he then whisper's me and continues his trash talk. I ignore him. In my old guilds a guy like this would have been kicked from the group immediately. What's ironic is that he complained in the beginning of the FP that he was having trouble with this map before, I have not. Common denominator? So yeah, a little venting. Any horror stories form anyone else?

 

OK OP, easy answer, tried and tested. Wait, watch him die, then pick up mobs and tank as normal. After he has died a few times he will learn.

[Torvai]

Sure dps shouldn't pull, but seriously OP, "this dps jugg" was right, you shouldn't tank hm fp's.

First boss in Athiss and you can't tank it properly? Heck, that's the easiest, flagged as hard, boss there is, especially as tank.

Just stand in the doorway, build threat on boss, when adds spawn under you, smash and sweeping slash and they're dead. They don't even get the chance to get threat on the healer.

 

And on the Guard: In FP's I rarely even guard anybody and almost never have threat problems, regardless of the level or tank class I'm playing. And IF I guard something, it's a dps. Healers will never steal threat from you if you know how to tank.

[RDeanOU]

looks like you never try hard fp as healer.

trooper and sniper trash mob hit 17-19k to full 192 healer.

 

usually tank and dpser kill mdd adds in frond of pack. Rdd adds go to healer and very fast kill him. That's why tank need guard healer on trash. Or tank need keep agro on rdd adds (very few tanks do this).

 

You thoroughly miss the point. Guarding the healer in that situation doesn't help anything. The reason the ranged mobs go for the healer in that scenario is because no one has touched them. Even with guard on the healer those adds will aggro the healer just as quickly because no one else will be in their threat table.

 

People have this weird perception that guard is some kind of magic shield. In pve, it's a threat reducer and reduces damage by 5%. That's it. A trash mob hitting the healer for 17-19 k will still be hitting the healer for 16-18 k. That will still kill the healer in basically the same amount of time if no one grabs those adds. The damage reduction is not significant. The threat reduction is the only significant thing about the ability in pve and that does nothing for the healer.

Edited February 16, 2015 by RDeanOU

[JudasGray]

looks like you never try hard fp as healer.

trooper and sniper trash mob hit 17-19k to full 192 healer.

 

usually tank and dpser kill mdd adds in frond of pack. Rdd adds go to healer and very fast kill him. That's why tank need guard healer on trash. Or tank need keep agro on rdd adds (very few tanks do this).

 

It's the DPS job to watch for and go after those adds - uually (in a good group) - one DPS stays on the boss with the tank, the other(s) clear the adds - and those are generally called out.

 

As a DPS Jugg I can hang in a bit longer - but everyone has roles, if your healer keeps dying, you're doing it wrong.

[Pagy]

Maybe I've been misinformed, but here's what I do as a tank (in PVE):

 

Low to mid levels (say, under 50) I guard the healer. The healer may not pull as much aggro as dps, but when a DPS aggros a strong or some normals this can be resolved by their normal task - kill the opponents.The healer, however, can't do anything about an attacker except say "hey, can someone kill this guy trying to kill me?" unless they step out of their role. If we haven't been stupid and aggroed multiple spawns, I can keep aggro on the big threats.

 

55+, I almost never guard the healer. I'll usually start off with the imperfect gear check of "who has highest health points", and as things go along if one DPS is pulling aggro from me, I'll switch.

 

As for DPS pulling - I used to be very strict on "I'm the tank I go first why did you go ahead". But for trash mobs, particularly if it's level 60s running a 55 HM, I don't make a big deal of it unless it's causing problems. If there are problems, that's different. And I have, on a couple occassions, whispered the other team members to just stand back as the DPS charges. "We figured you planned on soloing the flashpoint".

 

And as healer, yes, I make my displeasure clear when people assume I'll handle their out-of-combat regen or charge into battle significantly hurt.

again, a healer generates threat on all in-combat mobs equally. guard will just reduce the amount of threat they generate. if they pull agro it will be on mobs that aren't tanked or dps'd. whether they have guard or not, they will pull agro on these mobs just as quickly.

looks like you never try hard fp as healer.

trooper and sniper trash mob hit 17-19k to full 192 healer.

 

usually tank and dpser kill mdd adds in frond of pack. Rdd adds go to healer and very fast kill him. That's why tank need guard healer on trash. Or tank need keep agro on rdd adds (very few tanks do this).

guarding a healer would not change anything.

 

guard reduces threat by a percentage, it does not zero out threat. if mobs would attack a healer, they would have done so with or without him being guarded. why is this so difficult for people to understand?

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

Gaurd goes on the healer. Period, if you're having to gaurd a DPS they're a sh***ty DPS. If you pull aaggro unintentionally as a DPS you ease DPS. Doesn't matter if the tank sucks or not. Let them regain control. They can take more punishment than you and them getting hit requires the healer to heal less. Healer is more important than a DPS always. Healer goes down you all die. Healer gets attacked and their health drops too much, they have to spam themselves and can't heal anyone else. Then one guy dies. Then the tank dies. Then you all die. Seen it a million times. This guy seems like the type of person I was writing in the original post.

 

This is soooo wrong it's not funny. Guard should go on the more skilled DPS. I check gear and guard the DPS with higher gear level. If it's not clear I won't guard anyone and wait to see who pulls aggro first and guard them. When I play as a healer, i actually untoggle guard if they put it on me because it's stupid and shouldn't be done. If the tank doesn't get it and redirect it to a DPS I've dropped group because it's frustrating to play with a clueless tank.

[branmakmuffin]

This is soooo wrong it's not funny. Guard should go on the more skilled DPS. I check gear and guard the DPS with higher gear level. If it's not clear I won't guard anyone and wait to see who pulls aggro first and guard them. When I play as a healer, i actually untoggle guard if they put it on me because it's stupid and shouldn't be done. If the tank doesn't get it and redirect it to a DPS I've dropped group because it's frustrating to play with a clueless tank.

Along the "let's share anecdotes" line of this thread, it's slightly amusing when the weaker DPS requests the Guard (happens once in a while, not often). I can't recall a healer asking for it (but I don't keep detailed notes on these things).

 

And how many Tank players don't Guard anyone? Maybe in an Op someone will always say something. In a FP (I don't do Ops), I don't say anything because 1) it's just a game and 2) I'm always curious to see if they will eventually catch on and Guard someone.

Edited February 16, 2015 by branmakmuffin

[Pagy]

i typically dont say anything about guard in game unless someone brings up agro issues.

 

i've tanked most if not all ops bosses at this point with my merc and hey if they heal me what do i care.

[FAAmecanic]

Don't forget how much this ticks off your healer.

 

I told one group I was with "if the dps keeps running in like a tank Im going to stop healing him and let him die".

 

This was after numerous NICE attempts to try and instruct this person to all the tank about 5-10 seconds to grab agro before leaping in.

 

Again....this is why I don't play PUGS often.

[FAAmecanic]

Along the "let's share anecdotes" line of this thread, it's slightly amusing when the weaker DPS requests the Guard (happens once in a while, not often). I can't recall a healer asking for it (but I don't keep detailed notes on these things).

 

And how many Tank players don't Guard anyone? Maybe in an Op someone will always say something. In a FP (I don't do Ops), I don't say anything because 1) it's just a game and 2) I'm always curious to see if they will eventually catch on and Guard someone.

 

I suspect most PUG players have no idea what a GUARD is, what it does, and why they have it in their skills. LOL

 

I play Assassin Tank for our guild as sometimes healer (like to see what healers go thru and you all have my respect!). First thing I do as a tank "Where is my healer" and ZAP guard him Or if we have dps that is good at pulling agro (and massive dps) I will switch to the dps (situation dependant).

Edited February 16, 2015 by FAAmecanic

[Pagy]

I suspect most PUG players have no idea what a GUARD is, what it does, and why they have it in their skills. LOL

 

I play Assassin Tank for our guild as sometimes healer (like to see what healers go thru and you all have my respect!). First thing I do as a tank "Where is my healer" and ZAP guard him Or if we have dps that is good at pulling agro (and massive dps) I will switch to the dps (situation dependant).

you should be guarding the dps by default, otherwise theres no point.

[RDeanOU]

Because its primary function in pve is a threat reduction, it strikes me as pointless to ever guard a healer. That said, it's rarely going to matter in an HM FP. I almost never see dps ripping hate off of anything a tank is actually hitting.

 

The main thing is that this thread was started by a tank whining about dps that don't know how to manage threat, but it turns out that the OP doesn't understand what his guard ability is for and (more disturbingly) doesn't know how taunts work in this game. Dps should never be pulling mobs in an HM unless asked to, but this tank clearly doesn't know what he is doing.

[Halinalle]

Because its primary function in pve is a threat reduction, it strikes me as pointless to ever guard a healer. That said, it's rarely going to matter in an HM FP. I almost never see dps ripping hate off of anything a tank is actually hitting.

 

If healer has 100 threat and everyone else has 0 threat the reduction from Guard does nothing.

It doesn't matter if it's 100 or 50 or 10. It's still going to be higher than 0 (zero). If this actually happens we have to ask: what is dps doing?

[Elyx]

I always found discussions like this funny. Guard reduces threat. if someone is having an issue with threat, you guard them. I wont even turn on guard most the time, unless a DPS is pulling threat regularly. if someone asks for it, i give it to them. I don't consider it a law, and I don't judge others who like to abide by different approaches.

 

Read the skill description, learn how to apply it effectively to every situation that comes up. Improvise, adapt, overcome. If more tanks lived by THAT code, then we'd have more good tanks in the game.

 

And there will always be baddies. gotta learn to shrug them off and move on.

[RDeanOU]

If healer has 100 threat and everyone else has 0 threat the reduction from Guard does nothing.

It doesn't matter if it's 100 or 50 or 10. It's still going to be higher than 0 (zero). If this actually happens we have to ask: what is dps doing?

 

I'm not sure what you are arguing with. I've said repeatedly that it makes no sense to guard the healer for exactly the same reason you are giving. The only new thing I said here is that it will almost never end up mattering because threat is rarely a big issue in HM FP's.

 

The whole reason we are talking about this is b/c the OP doesn't understand the function of guard and doesn't know how taunts work in this game.

[Distracted]

Stand there & watch them die, laugh.

[Fidelicatessen]

The Tank should have aggro on everything, making them the only one taking damage because they can mitigate some of it, the healer has to keep them alive by spam healing them, which generates initial threat on anything that is aggro'd and doesn't initially get hit by the tank due to range issues or mid-fight spawns. This means guarding the healer is the best option to keep yourself alive IN FPs. Taking any and all stress off the healer means they can keep you alive longer, and odds are the DPS who may pull aggro should be aware and prepared to use their defensive CDs if they do. Honestly guard all depends on the individual fights you're about to pull, and can/should be swapped around accordingly, but the easiest answer in all FPs is to guard the healer if you're not able or willing to constantly swap it around.

 

*facepalm*

 

False. False. False. Well, the part about swapping it around is useful in some situations, particularly PvP. But Guarding the healer doesn't really do anything to help the group (except in PvP), so, no. Just curious: what's 30% of 0?

 

However, you have just shown your tank skills to the forums! Huzzah!

[Fidelicatessen]

I personally think all flashpoints and operations should be tactical based, but i am thinking most players are just afraid of change, i mean i love the whole tactical style, where you actually don't have to bow down to an arrogant ***** that does the tank role to get what they want, most healers are like that too, since tanks and healers are harder to get then dps are, so dps get spat on and *****ed at for the slightest thing, while tanks and healers get treated like royalty.

 

I tend to only do a flashpoint and a tactical once per day each for the commendations, any more then that is pointless and a waste of time, i think all flashpoints should be like KDY, as in you can do it, no matter your level, that it scales to your level........since KDY come out, that is the only one that tends to get done, since everything else requires a 30+ minutes wait.

 

TL;DR: I am a bad who has no interest in learning my role. Please make all group content dumb for bads! Thankslol!

[Fidelicatessen]

Gaurd goes on the healer. Period, if you're having to gaurd a DPS they're a sh***ty DPS. If you pull aaggro unintentionally as a DPS you ease DPS. Doesn't matter if the tank sucks or not. Let them regain control. They can take more punishment than you and them getting hit requires the healer to heal less. Healer is more important than a DPS always. Healer goes down you all die. Healer gets attacked and their health drops too much, they have to spam themselves and can't heal anyone else. Then one guy dies. Then the tank dies. Then you all die. Seen it a million times. This guy seems like the type of person I was writing in the original post.

 

You don't really understand how Guard works, do you?

 

It's OK, one more tank who doesn't understand the mechanics of threat. The world will not end.

[Distracted]

Gaurd goes on the healer. Period, if you're having to gaurd a DPS they're a sh***ty DPS. If you pull aaggro unintentionally as a DPS you ease DPS. Doesn't matter if the tank sucks or not. Let them regain control. They can take more punishment than you and them getting hit requires the healer to heal less. Healer is more important than a DPS always. Healer goes down you all die. Healer gets attacked and their health drops too much, they have to spam themselves and can't heal anyone else. Then one guy dies. Then the tank dies. Then you all die. Seen it a million times. This guy seems like the type of person I was writing in the original post.

 

If you need to place guard on the healer then you're doing something terribly wrong considering that the threat generated by healers is miniscule compared to the other roles. Why should damage dealers lower their output just because you're incapable of generating enough threat?

Edited February 17, 2015 by Distracted

[Distracted]

What we really need is a thread titled "Those tanks that don't know how to tank & blame everyone else for their failures instead".