Lightning Sorc PvP Alacrity

[Azurestone]

[Wall of Text] I am reviving this topic for academic purposes, primarily to discuss cz_zoltan and KBN's arguments. So I read this:

 

I can't fathom why anyone thinks that critting for a few hunder damage more is better than doing EVERYTHING faster by 5-6%.

 

Stat budget in full ranked gear: 860

 

860 surge = 26.7048228691 %

 

344 surge = 17.5999265175 %

516 alacrity = 6.24115918318 %

 

Let's say TB has a tooltip damage of 3k, then the difference between 860 surge and 344 is 273 damage.

 

Let's take it even further, if every move Lightning has would be autocrit then taking 4/6 split alacrity would be 3% dps loss. But we know Lighting even with it's autocrit TB and Recklessness is pretty *********** far from 100% crit chance. So no, full surge is wrong however you look at it. In case you guys forgot surge has a soft cap around 300 rating, so full surge build is 560 rating deep in diminishing return.

And this is even ignoring the fact that alacrity reduces every cooldown that can save your *** like Force Speed, Static Barrier, Force Barrier etc...

 

Yes I am aware of the diminishing return on surge, and I am taking it into my calculations. I've also read KBN's original post quoted in this post of cz_coltan:

 

Kym is not wrong that Alacrity produces more consistent results for all healers, including scoundrels/operatives. Whether or not you're using instant-cast abilities is completely irrelevant. 1% of alacrity is, very directly, 1% more healing done. It is always 1% more healing done barring lag and player error. Surge is variable in that it raises the standard deviation on your healing output and makes individual heals (most noticeably, big heals) more RNG-dependent.

 

Also remember that the rate of return on surge drops into the toilet as you start exceeding the 300-400 mark. Alacrity simply provides better HPS returns, point-for-point, than surge does once you start getting to those relative levels (i.e. when surge is around 400 and alacrity is around 100). Better HPS return means higher ceiling on your potential healing output, and since alacrity is providing that HPS in a controlled fashion, a skilled healer will be able to convert 100% of that HPS into eHPS.

 

This is completely ignoring the most significant factor of alacrity though, which is that it improves the responsiveness of your heals. Being able to do more things faster as a healer means that you can target swap at tighter intervals, shorten your response times to damage, and contract your burst window when needed. This is an ancillary benefit to alacrity that DPS do not get. Thus, alacrity is a fantastic stat on paper when you measure increasing HPS. It's a nearly god-like stat in practice when you combine that with the added control.

 

Putting it plainly, if you're running a low-alacrity build as a healer, you're doing it wrong. The only exception is if you have an absolutely wretched internet connection and your lag is variable and extreme, since that will wash out any benefits from the time shortening. I highly recommend no less than a 50/50 alacrity-to-surge ratio. Running even more alacrity than this ratio (i.e. a 75/25 ratio) would not be harmful. Crit is to taste, certainly, though I wouldn't go much above 400 (even as a scoundrel), and certainly not above 500.

 

---

 

Countering the OP's points more directly… The implication is that alacrity is all about regenerating energy. This makes absolutely zero sense, since alacrity reduces your cast times and GCD duration by exactly the same amount as it increases your regeneration. Thus, the two are in balance. Alacrity is simply a "do everything the same, but faster" stat.

 

Additionally, the argument has been raised that it's not really practical to get enough alacrity to make a difference on instant cast timings. This argument is based on the fallacy of perception. Sure, you're not fitting in an "extra" GCD in any short time window, but alacrity isn't about fitting in extra GCDs, it's just about doing everything faster. Think about it. This argument is analogous to claiming that power is useless because it would require an impractical amount to double the value of Underworld Medicine. It's not about doubling up; it's about small incremental gains and optimizing those gains.

 

Alacrity is one of the best stats in the game right now, and the only reason it isn't used more heavily by DPS is because they are constrained to spend a minimum of 6 item slots on accuracy, leaving them so little stat room that surge (with its excellent low-pool rate of returns) plays the dominate role. Healers have no such constraints, and they get additional benefits out of alacrity (i.e. responsiveness and control). There is absolutely no reason to under-stat on alacrity.

 

Here's what I think:

 

I tried a bit of alacrity and I don't see a significant DPS boost, and I don't find it convincing. Before you argue against my point. please notice that I am primarily a solo ranked player as I do 6 hours of solo ranked everyday, basically no group ranked and no regs:

 

[1] I am a solo ranked player where a legit tanked healer combo is quite rare. This means that the burst damage I can squeeze into the 2-4 GCD where tank did not switch guard or I baited a target out of guard range is way more important than my overall damage out put. I don't care whether me or you can do 1.5k or 1.8k damage, but I care how much burst killpower you bring into that 4 GCD target down time during a hard switch. Most solo ranked wins I obtained happens from (other than careful positioning, great strategizing and great focus) constant target switch and chained burst when target is vulnerable. I value this switch-to-target-and-burst-for-25k rhythm because I realize a lightning sorc in solo ranked is ultimately a high burst high kill power ranged carnage marauder but not a damage tank which refers someone who consistently hammers everyone to pressure the healer and force them into popping DCDs early, such as a madness sorc, hatred assassin, lethality operative or any of those DoT spread class.

 

To elaborate the previous argument that burst (crit/power/surge) matters more than overall dps (with a healthy mix of alacirty or just straight alacrity), here's a couple of scenarios for you to consider:

 

• A very constant match up: solo sorc against solo powertech. Powertech loves to chase sorc, and they are frequently put on the duty to chase / kill a sorc, or initiate combat with a pull when enemy team has a sorc. This is a typical matchup where your crit / surge shines over alacrity. It doesn't matter how much damage you can put on the powertech, but if you don't blast the powertech low enough during the 3-4 GCD after he put thermal detonator on you, chances are you won't be doing anything before its burst forces you into an instant barrier. Burst outweighes alacrity in this case because your killpower during the powertech burst or the powertech's "downtime" when its energy is not up is more important than how much damage you can dish out. Another thing to add to this point: the hydraulic override. If heals powertech during execution range with a very fast tick, which is the reason why madness sorc have a hard time doing a killing blow on powertech. In the last moments when hydraulic override is up, even 50 dmg from your surge boost might mean the difference between life and death, and if you can't finish the kill on powertech during hydraulic override, a powertech that comes back from death will destroy everyone on your team and everything you ever loved.
   
  
• Another constant matchup: 1 sorc + 3 melee against 2 sorcs + more melees or potentially more ranged. In that case a common strategy is to do a 3-1 split DPS, where you, as the solo sorc 1v1 one of the sorcs, and the other 3 melees on your team hard tunnel one sorc, with target switch upon barrier. I've dueled a lot of sorcs and played against a lot of sorc in solo ranked. My experience in this kind of matchup tells me that if you don't force the other sorc into instant barrier in 1v1 in around 4 GCD (6 at most), your 3 melees on the other sorcs are gonna have huge trouble and you will likely lose the game. To reassure you, yes, you can force an enemy sorc into barrier in 4 GCD if you do your opener right, but you are unlikely to do that if you have heavy alacrity on.
  

 

Those are two examples of the 4 GCD DPS window in ranked arena, and it is more important than alacrity DPS gain, because the alacrity DPS, unless its a 800 permanent DPS boost, enemy healer can easily heal through that, or a clever player can easily use DCDs or vanish out to deny it, but the 4 GCD burst is what they can't deny and what will kill them.

 

[2] With all that being said, let's take another look at KBN's post. I understand fully what he is saying. Alacrity boost your output, though not effectively displayed through instant cast abilities, but it helps as "1% of alacrity is, very directly, 1% more healing done". It makes sense to me, but I am not convinced about how alacrity would help a lightning sorc in solo ranked arena, specifically speaking, because the roles of lightning sorc is different from the roles in KBN's original post. KBN was talking about healer, and healer in solo ranked do bursts by using their rotation right, and the rest of the time they need the raw numbers to manage energy or just to handle the pressure of hatred assassin DoTs. Healers need to bring that huge tank of healing to top everyone up, but I don't need that huge tank of DPS to soften the enemy team, as I argued before that is primarily DoT spec's work (well in this quite unbalanced situation, that is primarily hatred's assassin's job).

 

[3] While there might be other classes that stack alacrity to help with energy management, such as AP PT, lightning sorcs do not have that problem as you can free cast 10 minutes without even looking at your energy bar. In PvP a lightning sorc will die 10 years before it runs into energy starve.

 

[4] One last point to add, alacrity boost comes strongest during scenarios where you just sit there, madly casting and hammer a target or more, where in ranked this rarely happens, as the enemy can easily deny it: either denies with with a bunch of controls, or deny it by couter-bursting on you, or deny it by putting up heavy DCDs to force you to switch away from current target, or simply just use a tank/healer. Even if you have a 15% alacrity, you are gonna tunnel through a healer / tank combo if you don't constantly target switch to perform that 4 GCD burst.

 

[TL;DR] To sum it up, in solo ranked or ranked in general, 4 GCD burst window damage is way more important than overall damage of a lightning sorc, and alacrity doesn't help in that 4 GCD. I would take 100 extra damage in 1 hit over 1000 extra damage spread through 10 GCDs due to alacrity boost. If you find my ideas wrong, feel free to instruct as if I am a noob. All I ask from you is to give me specific reasons as I did before why exactly alacrity is better than full power/crit/surge. Please don't tell me how theoretically alacrity could produce a marginal DPS, as I am aware that it does give a DPS gain, but I am not convinced that DPS gain is going to help me as much as my current build up do in ranked arenas.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Azurestone

[cs_zoltan]

What wrong with your post, what you base your whole point of view on alacrity vs surge, is that you think Alacrity only affects your dps in a long run and has nothing to do with burst.

This is wrong, alacrity is always there. 6% alacrity is 6% dps boost whether we are talking about 4 GCD or a thousand. And in that case your burst will also happen 6% faster.

 

If you really are convinced that only the first 4 GCD counts and literally nothing else matters afterwards then sure go for surge since the Lightning opener is near autocrit. But I think you know better than that.

Sure the opener is important but so does the rest of the game. And what you gained on that 4GCD you can quickly lose again with full surge build.

[MusicRider]

Alacrity is in general better, but ignore's zoltans posts, he doens't understand really pvp and how much situational or what hard-switches are.

 

Anyway, your points about (ling) sorc are reasonable, except that alacrity does also help with burst in terms that your burst abilities come off the gcd quicker, translating to be able to have more opportunities for bursting down. However, in order to really see a benefit in alacrity you have to always be doing something. Having inactive gcds is more damaging with high alacrity, and given how situational pvp is they will definitely happen. On the other hand, alacrity does help with faster reactions as if you have higher alacrity than an opponent you can fit two abilities before he does, e.g. let's say you both attack at the exact same time (if that can happen) and his attack brings you under 30%, you can fit your self-heal bringing you above 30% hp and hence denying him the chance of his execute.

 

Having said all this, although alacrity is generally better, for pvp and solo ranked choosing one over the other doesn't make any significant impact really in my opinion. Whether executing a 6s burst rotation in 5.7 over doing a some hundreds of damage more but in 0.3s faster are really insignificant differences. Just play what you think it works for you.

 

Btw you can't maximise both crit and power, (unless you are referring to max crit before diminishing kicks in then go all power).

Edited February 5, 2015 by MusicRider

[warstory]

the only success i found was at 13% alacrity but my indiviual hits sucked. force storm was nasty and reaction time is very fast. the thing is slo ranked for us sorcs is our short windows to attack. if you are allowed to free cast high alacrity is destructive if not well...

 

if we could get to 13% and above without losing power then there is a agruement. I still play high alcrity build when i just want to have fun.

[warstory]

I personally am starting to lean towards hitting really really hard with thunderblast and forcing them to react then instead of going threw 3 globes to do the same dmg.

[Azurestone]

I am running 2% alacrity rn which brought down my surge to 78% to 75%, and crit from 25% to 23% and a slightly higher bonus dmg (from power alacrity mods). A lot of ling sorc's alacrity comes from that 5 on focal lightning and if you manage to keep that up it's good enough in most situations. I haven't noticed a difference in the effectiveness brought by +2% alac and -2% surge yet, but I'll keep trying.

 

I saw lots of constructive ideas but I can't make comment right now, I'll read them and absorb those information and edit my reply later

 

About this particular reply:

 

I personally am starting to lean towards hitting really really hard with thunderblast and forcing them to react then instead of going threw 3 globes to do the same dmg.

 

This is what I meant in my original post. The idea of running a high crit is to force the opponent into a defensive response ASAP.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Azurestone

[Dalfurend]

Alacrity is a really fun stat.

 

To add to the conversation I just want people to think about what it means to have more alacrity than a healer or even their mirror class with just 1 more alacrity piece.

 

Being a gcd ahead of anyone is advantageous, but there is a balance you wanna strike. With lightning you get 30% surge on a lot of abilities, so 65% surge on your sheet is really 95% and 75% would be 105%. This means that the critical damage you do comparing the two is 195% compared with 205% meaning you do 5% more damage on each crit with 75% surge than at 65% surge. So 5% every 3 or so gcds provided recklessness isn't up.

 

For the 5% dmg increase on only crits you give up 6-7% alacrity i believe, which translates to a hard 6-7% dps increase and being a gcd ahead of most people.

 

Food for thought. I hardly play sorc but alacrity get me excited. Point stands nonetheless I think.

[TitusOfTides]

I dropped my surge down to about 61%, crit is around 20% (before 5% buff), and my alacrity is at 7.45%. (Only 3 moddable items without quick savant mods, so no relics, belts, etc either)

 

When I gain all 5 stacks of the alacrity buff from CL/TW I'm at 12.45% - then with our alacrity buff (Mental Alacrity/Polarity Shift) that puts me up to 32.45% - almost a 33% alacrity rating (will be much higher when I get ranked mods instead of regs - might then also experiment with going full alacrity augments - but I didn't even notice a 1/10s difference going from 9.x% to 7.45%)

 

In all honestly, I'm hitting just about as hard as I was before at 75(ish) surge. I'm casting turbulence and thundering blast way more often, and getting all of my other abilities off of cooldown much faster.

 

Times are a-changing. Way too many people are set in the old ways - the old rules. Sure... they may hit a little harder, but as my good friend once said, "I've seen an agent punch through a concrete wall; men have emptied entire clips at them and hit nothing but air; yet, their strength, and their speed, are still based in a world that is built on rules. Because of that, they will never be as strong, or as fast, as *you* can be."

 

Alacrity is the new black (not even just for sorcs/sages - look at all of the other classes that get alacrity boosts, and build on that!) Free your mind.

 

#TooManyReferences

Edited February 5, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[Azurestone]

I dropped my surge down to about 61%, crit is around 20% (before 5% buff), and my alacrity is at 7.45%. (Only 3 moddable items without quick savant mods, so no relics, belts, etc either)

 

When I gain all 5 stacks of the alacrity buff from CL/TW I'm at 12.45% - then with our alacrity buff (Mental Alacrity/Polarity Shift) that puts me up to 32.45% - almost a 33% alacrity rating (will be much higher when I get ranked mods instead of regs - might then also experiment with going full alacrity augments - but I didn't even notice a 1/10s difference going from 9.x% to 7.45%)

 

In all honestly, I'm hitting just about as hard as I was before at 75(ish) surge. I'm casting turbulence and thundering blast way more often, and getting all of my other abilities off of cooldown much faster.

 

Times are a-changing. Way too many people are set in the old ways - the old rules. Sure... they may hit a little harder, but as my good friend once said, "I've seen an agent punch through a concrete wall; men have emptied entire clips at them and hit nothing but air; yet, their strength, and their speed, are still based in a world that is built on rules. Because of that, they will never be as strong, or as fast, as *you* can be."

 

Alacrity is the new black (not even just for sorcs/sages - look at all of the other classes that get alacrity boosts, and build on that!) Free your mind.

 

#TooManyReferences

 

Man I wish you were on Bastion so I can duel you. I always want to duel a sorc stacking full alacrity just to see how it goes

[TitusOfTides]

Man I wish you were on Bastion so I can duel you. I always want to duel a sorc stacking full alacrity just to see how it goes

 

Jung Ma has already claimed my soul

[MusicRider]

the only success i found was at 13% alacrity but my indiviual hits sucked. force storm was nasty and reaction time is very fast. the thing is slo ranked for us sorcs is our short windows to attack. if you are allowed to free cast high alacrity is destructive if not well...

 

if we could get to 13% and above without losing power then there is a agruement. I still play high alcrity build when i just want to have fun.

 

Alacrity does not compete with power so yes you can run 13% alacrity and full power if you want to.

[MusicRider]

This is what I meant in my original post. The idea of running a high crit is to force the opponent into a defensive response ASAP.

 

Alacrity does not compete with crit either. In fact, playing highish crit with high alacrity might not be a bad idea to get as many as possible potential burst windows.

Edited February 6, 2015 by MusicRider

[TitusOfTides]

I agree. I run full power (overkill mods too) and crit whenever possible. I seem to have traded about 10% surge for about 10% alacrity (rounding just for sake of comparison) and it appears to be more advantageous than having the extra 10% surge.

[KrisBlaze]

Lets not forget we have activated utilities where surge doesn't matter but alacrity does. Simply based on that .. alac > surge. Right?

[Azurestone]

I actually bought a whole new ranked set. I am running with 15.37% alacrity at 174s fully min/maxed on high power mods and quick savant enhancements. I do notice the cast time is faster:

 

Thundering Blast Cast Time (without focal lightning 5% alacrity buff)

0 alacrity: 1.50 sec

1588 alacrity: 1.30 sec

1588 alacrity + polarity shift: 1.11 sec

 

In addition, force storm channels at 4.40 sec with polarity shift on (no focal lightning).

 

Note that 1588 is approximately the mathematical upper limit of alacrity with current tier of PvP gear, as I stacked alacrity in all enhancements, earpieces, implants and augments. Unless you use the other version of power/alacrity mods which give you something like 18 power 88 alacrity (a pathetically low power for a moderately higher alacrity), then you are not gonna break 1588.

 

My non-alacrity secondary stats are beyond horrible, with a crit chance at 18% and a bonus damage barely breaking 1400. My polarity shift crits for around 6k with relic procs. I'll admit that hitting every button much faster is fun, but it really hits like a wet noodle.

 

p.s. dat 51% mlgpro 420n4scope crit multiplier

Edited February 10, 2015 by Azurestone

[cs_zoltan]

My non-alacrity secondary stats are beyond horrible, with a crit chance at 18% and a bonus damage barely breaking 1400. My polarity shift crits for around 6k with relic procs. I'll admit that hitting every button much faster is fun, but it really hits like a wet noodle.

 

Because you went too far. It's like saying crit is useless because full crit if bad...

[Azurestone]

Because you went too far. It's like saying crit is useless because full crit if bad...

 

No I am not trying to prove alacrity is useless with that post. I am just experimenting in uncharted territory because I stocked way too many comms. I am planning to gradually drop my alacrity rating from that point to try to work something out with a power alacrity build.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Azurestone