When Did We As MMO gamers get so Greedy

[owenthorn]

It isn't greedy to expect things that should be standard in 2012 for a game release, they had 5 years and 100 million to develop this, I expect more today than I did 15 years ago.

 

I know to expect bugs, glitch's, crashes, yes absolutely, I get that, but in today's world, I expect less issues than previous games, they did a private beta, massive public beta and it seems they releases a very buggy version of the beta

 

To have the last 5 years to look at the things other mmo's were doing or were going to implement, because customer fan base wanted it, to see the basic things users want, and then NOT do them, but claim to add them later is lazy and disrespectful of your customers

 

When you continue to tell everyone to just wait, they will patch that, that will add that, they will implement this later, they gonna fix it, you are just as much of the problem as the coders of the game and those who said release it

 

The grace period it should have been 30 days, not 2, another game lets you play a trial for free, without making you sub at all, it was a PR stunt, numbers game, they screwed over some customers to do it, then release 2 days later, we had the most people subbed to any mmo ever, we have over a million people signed up, all a stunt to claim some market share, make stock holders happy and try to scare the other mmo's

 

So before you jump on your claim of every mmo does that, I just told you one who doesn't, so that invalidates your whole argument, look up deceptive practices, fine print doesn't save you

 

bottom line, we are not greedy, we have higher expectations today than ever, now some may be unrealistic, I know, but if you don't live up to them, you will hear about it, we as paying customers have that right

[Onomas]

Funny how you guys keep saying programming is so hard. Obviously you dont do it for a living. Comes second nature to people after doing it so long. Just look at something and make changes or make new program out of the blue comes second nature for most these developers. When you do it for work, to make money for your family, have many teams of skilled people, no its not that hard. Might be time consuming and might get under your skin from time to time. But hard? 6 years college for it, and make programs at work. Granted not as sophisticated as a MMO, but yeah same principle.

[Sohtaraz]

1. Content.

 

Now granted, Im only reading this from the people I mentioned above, the folks that used exploits or just skipped the text/subquests/any exploration etc, so I offer near no symapthy to this group. And I remind you, how many mmo's were rich with max level raids FIVE DAYS after release?

 

Conclusion: Welcome to the first five days of An MMO, if you plowed through using exploits/8 metric tons of mountain dew why are you shocked at this point if there isn't 100 raids? If youve actually played a decent number of MMO's you should have Known this was comming, so why complain?

 

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Also why would I read a horribly written storyline if I have no intrest to it lore, or it does not intrest you in challenging way such as giving moral dilemmas? Not everyone enjoys all the story archs.

 

And there is no content or reason to play an alt, unless you want to play the opposing force since the sidequests are not engaging, your forced to have a load for them. Crafting is not worth the grind (and yes, staying at your computer looking at the game and clicking on a button constitutes as grind no matter how you try to justify it)

 

I'm going to doubt that there are no seperate zones for high levels to play in and have world pvp at level 50, but even if that was not the case you there should be a minium ammount of 6-10 instances dedicated for that level along with several raids (WoW has had allways 2-3 balanced raids on expansion, but that was an expansion and 7 years old game). At the moment SWTOR has no real reason to PVP considering the ammount of bugs and competitive nature of just free to play games that you can hop on for better pvp.

 

2. Bugs at launch

 

Wow, cmon people you name me ONE mmo that didn't come out rife with bugs here and there. Name me one and ill award you king of the internet. How many games like Age of conan came out with bugs that made the game UNPLAYABLE. Anyone whos been around the block remembers The various game killing glitches that plauged WoW as well.

 

Conclusion: Compared to many mmo's were bugs/glitches resulted in errors and black screens, this game has had a relativly clean release. And as long as you submit the bugs, They will be fixed. Does dealing with Bugs suck? Oh heck yes they do, but again I demand you name one MMO that doesn't have this issue, and WoW has bugs from burning crusade STILL not fixed.

 

150-300 million should pritty much say no game crippling bugs should be out there and polish should be here, instead there are a few quite big bugs and a number of small ones combined with lack of high res textures implemented at all.

 

The trueth is that no mmo has had a bug free launch yes, but its no excuse for you to say "others did it too". Just ignore it if people ticks you off, most of the complaints are legit and constructive mind you.

 

 

3. Not An MMO/No one around

Lots of players- even on the newbie planet I was constantly getting into groups for heroics, did the first flashpoint three times with various people. Heck this was before I realized I could friend em, as I had fun. Im on my second char on the second Planet and I still find a fair number of people, and have had no issues finding a group to deal with a nasty Heroic.

[/Quote]

 

Good for you, thats your personal view of events and does not correspond to everyones. You do realice someone might have leveled slightly faster, or played at a difrent time and have people still instanced so the game feels extremely barren?

 

Also most mmo's have outgrown trade spam for a reason, its spam. The UI is such in this game that most people ignore alot of messages on general chat so can you really blaim them for not seeing the social side of the mmo that dosn't have any social freatures to brag about?

 

MEGA POINT, READ it: DId anyone else check the date lately, and realize We are going through Christmas? Were lots of people are with family or on Vacation? Anyone ever one think that could effect some folk?

 

But yea...we have pvp, crafting, An auction house(will hit on this), Raids, guilds, everything Most MMo's start out with o_O.

[/Quote]

 

Yes its a christmas, one of the worst times to release a new game do to the absurd ammount of free time people can actually use to rip your game apart and loose people do to mouth-to-mouth conversations of state of the game when they see their friends. If you release an MMO at christmas that only justifies you for more critism then anything since some people might have personal hopes for your product.

 

Empty auction hause, crafting that feels insignifant and after the first planets becomes a chore as well since trainers or benches not present at all worlds.

 

4. Bad Economy!

 

Uhhhhmmm, games been out for five days? Did you expect a fully fleshed economy for all the items and stuff people? Patience for pities sake, No mmo came out and immediatly had a happy old economy.

 

Yes I do expect when I pay 3,500 credits that my damage increase once per battle does not increase by 10-25 damage. I do actually believe someone would actually look at skill training costs and wonder if they are actually worth ranking up. (Or casters buying those those melee skills every 4 levels seems so intelligent).

 

5. Missing stuff like Dual builds!

 

I can sympathize here, I wish I had dual builds? BUt remember When NO mmo had em? As far as I can recall City of heroes was the first MMO I saw that had it, several years after elease at than. Than WoW followed along very quickly (lol). But yes, I do wish I could dual build for a pvp and a pve spec, but again its a Minor gripe.

[/Quote]

 

If you eventally have to put them in game, why did you not put it sooner when you had the money to do so? Mind you its no excuse that it will come later considering how many people actually are discouraged by healing by default. (Specially with 8 pet classes) Just becouse Every MMO that is your competition has a wheel, we should make our car go on hexagons is still a bad idea, other people use the wheel for a reason.

 

7. Loading screens!

 

.....so yea, When you enter a pvp battleground in WoW, Rift etc you get a loading screen.

 

When you enter a dungeoun you get a loading screen

 

The only Unique loading time this game has is starting quest conversations, and thats 1-5 seconds tops. Ill trade 1-5 seconds for the story and immersion actually talking to the people adds.

 

Conclusion:.....so yea whats the problem?

 

You alt tab you get a loading screen and your 1-5 second tops loading screen is depended on the server and clients mood on the day. I have had several minute loading screen ending in a client crash. Also 1-5 second loading screen for turning in a quest for a conversation that you get "thank you" is still a loading screen you never wish you had.

 

Playing with friends its constantly "Are you in the conversation?" in class quests.

 

Now for general loading screens the load time could be justified if the ammount of textures was atleast remotely close to what you get but since as already noted were playing with low resolution textures they are too long. (Specially going back to your ship to talk with someone then hopping back to the planet)

 

8. Shards!

 

Heres the thing, shards have thier ups and there downs to be sure. Due to them some areas can seem abandoned, especially during early morning hours or Xmas holiday (cough). Buuuuuuut if you remove them, than you start having to wait in long lines for quest mobs and desperatly fighting people for a single resource node. I remember Back in old school WoW, a single quest mob would have 20 or so people just surrounding his spawn point, first come first serve.

 

Conclusion: You either have it one way, or the other and Im sorry but fighting for a quest mob is NOT fun.

 

So to justify 30 second respawn time on quest items is the fact that servers are sharded? Yeah sounds legit, if you have problems with having too many people killing same mobs maybe you should make the mobs pretagged and activated by a quest item? Notice how this was removed in WoW when they started removing grind quests also since its easier to deal with and more convinient.

 

Sharding it becouse of quest areas becoming crowded means that you didn't want to make your quests doable in crowded areas to begin with, or you didn't do enough work on the subject.

 

 

Bioware is NOT some tiny little company like, Say Adventurine( poor guys). They are an extremely well known Name that have created multiple Amazing games, Game of the year worthy games (KoToR one). They won't sit back and just laugh at players and thier grievances, patches will come along with content and everything we want.

 

All thats asked is Patience. If you seriously cant Show any of that, FIVE DAYS after a release, than Im sorry but no one can help you with your problem.

 

Patience does not help with development oversights nor does praising their old games considering their last game. Let's be honest KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2 were absolutely fantastic games, but they were not made to appeal to the large market thus they went away from it (Its a legimate reason) so you can not expect a game like this ever to become as deep.

 

Yes they shamelesly ripped off most of WoW working things such as basic gameplay but didn't go through the whole process of taking the tools with them so were ending up with a very old style MMO on a modern market that is crowded with competition. Anyone justifying "go back to wow" statements with anything then pure hostility is kidding themselves about what this game is and what direction it allready is headed.

 

The things that improve your gaming community are the ones that alianate people who do not want to spend time on community activities such as making friends and teaching others. The problem lies that the market is more and more towards the people who want their game to be convinient and easy. Challenge is allways nice but at the end of the day your going for the maximum ammount of subscriptions, this means you need to have a huge timesink in the game and a story is not a huge timesink unless its massive or something you have influence over.

 

And please don't argue that the story in this game is massive at the moment its the only driving point of this game thus should be judged against other singleplayer rpg's not mmo story lines.

[Herdsnerfs]

It isn't greedy to expect things that should be standard in 2012 for a game release, they had 5 years and 100 million to develop this, I expect more today than I did 15 years ago.

 

What sorts of things you feel should be "standard" in an MMO? I don't think they WANT some things that other (i.e. WoW, since that is what everyone really means), MMOs have. LFG tool? I disliked it, though it made WoW quite a bit worse. That imo, is good riddance - I hope they never add it, and I further hope that its exclusion was a conscious design choice. I also hope they don't cater to the masses like Blizzard did, and they keep those sorts of things out of their game, if they don't want them.

[Cameirus]

You have no patience to allow the manufacturer to develop these features, test them, and slowly introduce them to the public.

 

 

As for your analogy, pick one that makes more sense.

 

My analogy is fine thanks.

 

 

And yes, yes I am expecting that. they have had how long in development? how long in testing? How many people in beta tests?

 

If it was not sub based I;d have more patience. But as they want us to fork out a monthly fee, I want solid indications on where they are going development wise.

[Scar]

What EQ lacked, was actual gameplay. EQ was a sadistic game designed to punish players over and over and over. WoW was a game designed for people to have fun.

 

That's why WoW got millions of subscribers, because every time the designers could choose between making the gameplay worse for 'immersion' or making the game more fun, they choose to make the game more fun.

 

It still lacked 5 years worth of content and features. It appeared from a veteran MMOG'er's perspective to be "half done".

[its_them]

Dungeon finder and PvP finder are the best things to ever happen to wow imo.

 

 

You can Login and participate in events with others whom want to do the same in minutes its genius.

[Herdsnerfs]

Dungeon finder and PvP finder are the best things to ever happen to wow imo.

 

 

You can Login and participate in events with others whom want to do the same in minutes its genius.

 

And I hated it. See how that works? Personally I hope they never introduce a dungeon finder. PvP finder is ok imo, it's not quite the same thing. But dungeon finders only intensified all the things wrong with WoW. Raid finder is doing the same thing.

[Scar]

My analogy is fine thanks.

'Cept it's not. You are making an analogy that uses the same manufacturing time with an actual instance that does not. So it''s not fine.

 

And yes, yes I am expecting that. they have had how long in development?

 

I'll answer that one: they have had 6 years of development...during those six years WoW was also developing, adding many of those features that people are asking for.

[Cameirus]

And I hated it. See how that works? Personally I hope they never introduce a dungeon finder. PvP finder is ok imo, it's not quite the same thing. But dungeon finders only intensified all the things wrong with WoW. Raid finder is doing the same thing.

 

fine, but it was brought in due to demand. And when it was not in RIFT, it was brought in bloody quick as the players demanded it enmass.

 

 

 

The only problem wiht wow LFG is that you are compelled to do it due to rewards. If they left it as purely a tool and no incentive (money, loot, tokens), you could take it or leave it. If you want not to use it, dont. but why stop others who do?

[Darkulous]

Dungeon finder and PvP finder are the best things to ever happen to wow imo.

 

 

You can Login and participate in events with others whom want to do the same in minutes its genius.

 

I agree.

 

I also agree with OP. Unfortunately it's become harder and harder to find a group (I'm level 29) recently for flashpoints. Maybe it's because of the holidays like the OP suggested, or maybe I'm ahead of the curve. With that said, I do see a need for a LFD in the future when there are far less lower level players around to run flashpoints.

[Cancrizans]

2008 UO had around 75k subs, I'd assume a fair bit less now, Asherons Call has less then 10k and City of Heroes appears to be somewhere below 75k as well based on their financials.

 

Huge money there, huuuuuuuuuuuuge!

 

Yes, and they are TWELVE YEARS OLD OR MORE. Are you seriously arguing that the market for a game tailored to traditional MMO players that is made today is anyway related to how a few games that launched in the 90s are doing over a decade later?

[pattongb]

'Cept it's not. You are making an analogy that uses the same manufacturing time with an actual instance that does not. So it''s not fine.

 

 

 

I'll answer that one: they have had 6 years of development...during those six years WoW was also developing, adding many of those features that people are asking for.

 

/owned

[its_them]

And I hated it. See how that works? Personally I hope they never introduce a dungeon finder. PvP finder is ok imo, it's not quite the same thing. But dungeon finders only intensified all the things wrong with WoW. Raid finder is doing the same thing.

 

Did anyone force you to use it?

[Cameirus]

'Cept it's not. You are making an analogy that uses the same manufacturing time with an actual instance that does not. So it''s not fine.

 

 

Just because you do not understand does not make it wrong.

[Zironic]

It still lacked 5 years worth of content and features. It appeared from a veteran MMOG'er's perspective to be "half done".

 

Back then, MMO's were a tiny niche market. WoW singlehandedly made it mainstream, that's the difference that it appears a lot of mentally scarred masochistic 'veterans' seem to wilfully ignore and seem to keep wishing they could turn the clock back to simpler times.

[Zironic]

Yes, and they are TWELVE YEARS OLD OR MORE. Are you seriously arguing that the market for a game tailored to traditional MMO players that is made today is anyway related to how a few games that launched in the 90s are doing over a decade later?

 

You tell me, how is Vanguard doing?

[Vlaxitov]

Dungeon finder and PvP finder are the best things to ever happen to wow imo.

 

 

You can Login and participate in events with others whom want to do the same in minutes its genius.

 

WoW almost imediately had to start dumbing down their dungeon content compensate for dungeon finder. At that point people essentially stopped really needing eachother to progress in the game giving way to the freedom of behaving poorly in game without consequence. From there we saw things like chuck norris jokes in barrens chat devolve into dead baby jokes in world trade chat. Dungeon finder was the worst thing to ever happen to WoW imho.

[Scar]

Just because you do not understand does not make it wrong.

 

No it's wrong because it's wrong. I think you're the one who doesn't understand.

 

You see "MMOG" and you think "I dont care 6, 12, 1, 100 years of development: it has to have [insert random feature]" and you aren't taking into account anything else.

 

You have a car that has been manufactured for 12 months, you'd expect it to have more amenities than the one that was manufactured for 6 months.

[Onomas]

Back then, MMO's were a tiny niche market. WoW singlehandedly made it mainstream, that's the difference that it appears a lot of mentally scarred masochistic 'veterans' seem to wilfully ignore and seem to keep wishing they could turn the clock back to simpler times.

 

WOW went after the kids. Thats what the difference was. Plus it had a franchise name behind it and a blizzard had a good rep from warcraft and starcraft. We dont want the clock turned back, we want a non dumbed down console style rpg with eye candy galore called a MMO

[Scar]

Back then, MMO's were a tiny niche market. WoW singlehandedly made it mainstream, that's the difference that it appears a lot of mentally scarred masochistic 'veterans' seem to wilfully ignore and seem to keep wishing they could turn the clock back to simpler times.

 

Not certain where you are going with this.

 

Anyway, to the point I was addressing, there are examples all the time in the video game industry where a new product does not have the feature set of the previous existing games on the market due to amount of time to develop, allow people to develop, allow the game to mature, etc....and yet people still buy the newer, less featured, less content games.

[its_them]

Ok well the people whom didnt like to wait 2 hrs to arrange a raid have the option to do a dungeon instead.

 

And this effects you how?

 

The hardcore guild's still did what they had always done and the casual players could do stuff too, every ones a winner!

 

And anyone whom had a problem with the pvp finder is just weird I can understand the elitists moaning about dungeon finder but no excuses for pvp.

[mjbig]

Like any game out there, this one has its fair share of idiots.

[Cameirus]

No it's wrong because it's wrong. I think you're the one who doesn't understand.

 

You see "MMOG" and you think "I dont care 6, 12, 1, 100 years of development: it has to have [insert random feature]" and you aren't taking into account anything else.

 

You have a car that has been manufactured for 12 months, you'd expect it to have more amenities than the one that was manufactured for 6 months.

 

Wow, nice psychic talent you have there, knowing what I think.

 

Lets see what you think: "lalalalalalalalalal if I ignore it, then there are no problems alalalalalalal"

 

yeah, see how BS that is.

 

 

And its right because I say it is. Oh look this circular arguement could go on forever.

[Sohtaraz]

WoW almost imediately had to start dumbing down their dungeon content compensate for dungeon finder. At that point people essentially stopped really needing eachother to progress in the game giving way to the freedom of behaving poorly in game without consequence. From there we saw things like chuck norris jokes in barrens chat devolve into dead baby jokes in world trade chat. Dungeon finder was the worst thing to ever happen to WoW imho.

 

 

My god they actually cutted down my personal challenge on heroic dungeons that I was speed running before hardmode raids in order to make my next content patch come sooner? Those bastards.

 

(Too hard dungeons = Less people doing dungeons, Easier starting tier = More people doing daily dungeons = More subscribers = more ammount of money to spend on development (as is rolling around in 500 euro bills))

 

The fact is that the game is mainstream as it can be allready, Star Wars and an MMORPG taking alot of aspects from WoW. And really, when was the last time you have actually had dificulties in a solo dungeon (Yes I know some later game class quests are dificult, but for the first 20-25 levels).