Consumer Protection - Ontario, Canada

[Pagy]

The proof we need to prevail in our claim against EA is that EA knew they intended to change the drop rates at the time they made the representation that the drop rates were "as intended".

funny thing is, they already openly said drop rates were under review. we were warned!

[Pagy]

I suspect that you and a number of other posters here fail to understand just how wrong Bioware has done this time.

 

You keep thinking it is silly, maybe Bioware does as well. That thinking isn't going to make this all go away.

i think they were wrong to change things so drastically, but then again they also warned us.

 

i think it's ridiculous to claim that people are entitled to reparations because they paid money for cartel coins to get a random item.

 

i have no doubt people will make a huge deal about this, but then again entitled video gamers never cease to amaze.

[Heat-Wave]

they spent money on coins. They got exactly what was offered, xxx coins for $yyy. how you choose to spend those coins is up to you. OP choose to spend coins on a chance to win a machine and eventually got that machine.

 

the operation of any in game content is and will be subject to change. Othewise ever time someone doesn't like their char nerf or non-buff can complain and sue. Don't like disciplines, sue. Don't like pvp changes, sue. Given this every time I pull a Black dye from my armor i can sue for its destruction right?

 

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this stuff works.

 

You can use those word games on an Internet forum, or when debating something over beer. In my experience with actual Judges in actual courtrooms, they take a very dim view of word games.

 

It of course will vary from place to place, but I live in Texas, the same state Bioware is in, and I believe I could find myself a judge who exile tell you to put a sock in that nonsense.

[branmakmuffin]

funny thing is, they already openly said drop rates were under review. we were warned!

What, exactly, is confusing to you:

 

[W]e do hear the concern from many of you around the effects of the Jawa Junk’s drop rate on the economy. We are going to take a look at it and make changes accordingly. I will let you know once I know more. In the meantime, have fun! [my emphasis]

 

Edited January 26, 2015 by branmakmuffin

[Heat-Wave]

funny thing is, they already openly said drop rates were under review. we were warned!

 

Yes, the drop rates of Jawa Junk. Not the drop rates of everything.

 

And besides, I bought my slot machines before Eric posted, making his post beside the point. I saw how the machine worked in the game because my guild had one on our flagship, so I went and bought one for my personal stronghold.

 

So the warning means nothing anyway since I purchased before it.

[Malastare]

You do realize a video games ToS does not supercede actual law, correct?

 

It doesn't. However, it does set up the structure on which the law operates. While there are some grey areas about how far a software/service license can go, it has to have some legal bearing, as it was the legal document that allowed you to use someone else's software in the first place. So, at the very least, you implicitly (and sort of explicitly) agreed that the license was binding to some degree.

 

So, while the requirement that all legal procedings be handled in California might not be held up, the foundation of license stating that the end user has no ownership of the software or digital representations in the game very likely will be. Also, until SWTOR is legally declared a public utility, you as as customer cannot force EA to continue to provide service if they don't want to.

 

So, the end results tend to be exactly what a bunch of people here keep saying: Legal complaints will end up with two major consequences: Your account will be permanently terminated (because no court can force EA to keep you as a customer), and you'll receive zero compensation for Cartel Coins you used (since using them removes all value, as EA owns the software and all digital items). If you're lucky, you might get a court to demand a refund of unused coins. EA might also decide to wash their hands of it and refund the most recent purchases. However, you'd still be left with a permaban, and you could lose access to other Origin games.

[branmakmuffin]

Yes, the drop rates of Jawa Junk. Not the drop rates of everything.

 

And besides, I bought my slot machines before Eric posted, making his post beside the point. I saw how the machine worked in the game because my guild had one on our flagship, so I went and bought one for my personal stronghold.

 

So the warning means nothing anyway since I purchased before it.

Not to mention this little gem:

 

http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/1212015/3.0.2a-patch-notes

 

The Contraband Slot Machine’s Jawa Junk drop rate has been reduced and Faction-specific Walker mounts have been added to the potential rewards. [my emphasis]

Edited January 26, 2015 by branmakmuffin

[DOHboy]

It doesn't. However, it does set up the structure on which the law operates. While there are some grey areas about how far a software/service license can go, it has to have some legal bearing, as it was the legal document that allowed you to use someone else's software in the first place. So, at the very least, you implicitly (and sort of explicitly) agreed that the license was binding to some degree.

 

So, while the requirement that all legal procedings be handled in California might not be held up, the foundation of license stating that the end user has no ownership of the software or digital representations in the game very likely will be. Also, until SWTOR is legally declared a public utility, you as as customer cannot force EA to continue to provide service if they don't want to.

 

So, the end results tend to be exactly what a bunch of people here keep saying: Legal complaints will end up with two major consequences: Your account will be permanently terminated (because no court can force EA to keep you as a customer), and you'll receive zero compensation for Cartel Coins you used (since using them removes all value, as EA owns the software and all digital items). If you're lucky, you might get a court to demand a refund of unused coins. EA might also decide to wash their hands of it and refund the most recent purchases. However, you'd still be left with a permaban, and you could lose access to other Origin games.

 

we could only be so lucky if they busted out the ban hammer..needs to be used more often IMO.

[Frybert]

I'm not going to attach any statutes and case citations. I'm going to rely on 20+ years as a civil litigator, including many cases brought under my home state's Consumer Protection Law (FYI, most jurisdictions adopted the same Model Consumer Protection Act, so they generally all have the same terms ... even the Canadian version). Choice of law clauses are generally upheld unless the clause violates public policy of the court's state; i.e., the fact that California law governs our contract must--in itself--violate public policy. That's a high burden and a rare outcome. There are too many treaties and Constitutional issues at play to offer a succinct view of enforcing a foreign jurisdiction's laws against an American company doing business in that foreign location, but the super-shorthand version is that by advertising in the foreign country and selling its service to residents of that country, EA is subject to personal jurisdiction there. DISCLAIMER: I am not licensed in Canada.

*snip*

TL;DR: I'm a lawyer with 20+ years experience in civil litigation and I would throw this case out of my office.

 

Thanks. I was hoping you would weigh in.

[Khryn]

 

TL;DR: I'm a lawyer with 20+ years experience in civil litigation and I would throw this case out of my office.

 

 

Beautiful post. This is quite a punctuation mark right here though. Thank you for speaking up!

[Bristol]

Official Consumer Complaint

 

Consumer Complaint

 

You are receiving this notice because a customer has a complaint about your business and believes you

have contravened the Consumer Protection Act, 2002.

 

At this time, the Ministry of Consumer Services has not initiated a formal investigation into the complaint.

The ministry’s Consumer Protection Branch administers and enforces a number of consumer protection

laws to ensure that businesses act fairly and ethically.

 

Our policy is that consumers who have a complaint should first seek to resolve the problem by

writing to the business. A letter from your customer is attached.

 

• Next steps:

 

Our aim is to ensure that consumers and businesses have information about their rights and obligations

that is clear and easy to understand. Please take a moment to consider the details of the letter. You may

also wish to review your obligations under the Consumer Protection Act. Your efforts to resolve the matter

may avoid the need for us to become involved.

 

If you have not responded to the consumer, addressing the concerns in their attached letter within

three weeks, the consumer may file a formal complaint about your business. If the issue falls under

the Consumer Protection Act, the ministry may help mediate a solution. If we are unable to do so or

your business is found to be in breach of the act, we may take enforcement action against you or your

business.

 

• Penalties and other options:

 

Where an investigation finds a violation of the law, charges may be laid. Successful prosecution may result

in fines of up to $50,000 for an individual or imprisonment for not more than two years less a day, or both.

A company may be liable to a fine of up to $250,000.

 

The act requires the ministry to post information about businesses that fail to respond to consumer

complaints; actions it has taken against a business; and charges laid and convictions. This information

is available to the public on Ontario’s Consumer Beware List at ontario.ca/consumerbeware. Where

information relating to a charge is posted on the public record, the business is not guilty of an offence

unless a court of law has so determined.

[DOHboy]

Official Consumer Complaint

 

I think the wind just picked up from all the laughter....That or its an earthquake from all the shaking they are doing in their boots...

 

if you don't like your service feel free to unsub and stop being a customer. I am sure that they will be more than happy to help you (if they don't do it outright) in returning your account to an NULL state.

[Frybert]

I think the wind just picked up from all the laughter....That or its an earthquake from all the shaking they are doing in their boots...

 

if you don't like your service feel free to unsub and stop being a customer. I am sure that they will be more than happy to help you (if they don't do it outright) in returning your account to an NULL state.

 

Ha, funny. Actually we've got a front coming through right now, and right when I started reading that post we had a MASSIVE gust of wind.

[Heat-Wave]

It doesn't. However, it does set up the structure on which the law operates. While there are some grey areas about how far a software/service license can go, it has to have some legal bearing, as it was the legal document that allowed you to use someone else's software in the first place. So, at the very least, you implicitly (and sort of explicitly) agreed that the license was binding to some degree.

 

So, while the requirement that all legal procedings be handled in California might not be held up, the foundation of license stating that the end user has no ownership of the software or digital representations in the game very likely will be. Also, until SWTOR is legally declared a public utility, you as as customer cannot force EA to continue to provide service if they don't want to.

 

So, the end results tend to be exactly what a bunch of people here keep saying: Legal complaints will end up with two major consequences: Your account will be permanently terminated (because no court can force EA to keep you as a customer), and you'll receive zero compensation for Cartel Coins you used (since using them removes all value, as EA owns the software and all digital items). If you're lucky, you might get a court to demand a refund of unused coins. EA might also decide to wash their hands of it and refund the most recent purchases. However, you'd still be left with a permaban, and you could lose access to other Origin games.

 

Several things in there are on an "it depends" basis...

 

For example, if it could be found that EA banned me from playing because I'm gay, a court could indeed force them to continue to provide service.

 

Look at the recent court rulings in Colorado forcing bakers to provide service to gay people getting married and wanting a wedding cake.

 

I get that isn't really the case here, I'm simply pointing out that there are cases when EA can be forced to provide service. And probably be fined a lot of money in the process.

 

The thing is, it would cost EA thousands of dollars in legal fees to even respond to lawsuits, their lawyers would have to research the cases and prepare responses. Almost 10 years ago, my business was sued by a customer for $1,000. It was trivial in my opinion, the customer was just fishing. I won, it got thrown out before it went anywhere. It cost me about $1,500 in legal bills to get it tossed.

 

Which is why the customer sued, probably figuring that I'd just pay up or offer half or something to avoid that.

 

In another case, I was sued for a lot more money than that... after talking with my insurance company and my lawyer, we determined that we had a 90% chance to win... but given the dollar amounts involved, it was decided to settle for about 10% of what the lawsuit was asking for. My lawyer put it best... You can pay this guy $10,000, or you can pay me $10,000 to fight him with a 90% chance of winning and no guarantee the $10,000 will be enough, depositions are expensive.

 

Then there is the public relations aspect of a public lawsuit for a public company like EA. It just looks bad... and EA doesn't need more of that...

 

---

 

Now that being said, do I have any plans to sue? No, I consider the $50 I spent to get the slot machine trivial and not worth the trouble. I have better things to do in life than sue over that. I'm simply discussing the maybes and what-ifs of it, that's all.

[Malastare]

If I won the prize of the lottery and they came back later and took it, I'd be pissed.

 

But EA didn't take anything from you.

 

They balanced the game. You were fine with loads of other balancing changes, but this one you decided to flail about and whine over.

 

More to the point: You don't own the Slot Machine. EA does. You don't get to claim ownership. If it disappeared from your inventory tomorrow, you'd be hard pressed to justify any sort of legal action, as you can't file a complaint for someone stealing something you don't own.

 

Similar case here. You won the lottery. The randomness was over. You had the machine. Bw made changes and what they changed didn't happen how they stated changes would happen or how they led gamers to believe.

 

1: Bioware has made loads of changes in the past. These include changes to parts of the game that were paid for with real money.

2: Bioware hasn't always told player when, what or the full scope of those changes in the past. The players are well aware of this.

3: Bioware has stated many times, including in the ToS, that these changes may occur. In none of those places does it place a limit on how drastic the change can be or require full notification of the change.

 

It's not the randomness that your argument is based on. You're sad that the item changed. But that's not new to MMOs. That is actually one of the core tenets of MMOs: They have to keep changing and those changes are decided on by the designers, not a council of players or by a public vote. If new things are added and they cause problems, they're changed. Can I file a lawsuit over the Slicing nerf from Jan 2012? Just think of all the credits I've not gotten a chance to earn since then. I was paying for a subscription with a character who had Slicing, and by nerfing Slicing, I lost access to other digital items... just like the Slot Machine. If you get a refund for the Slot Machine, then I should get a refund for every Slicing character I have, right?

 

No. That's idiotic and you (should) know it.

 

The fact that this is shocking to you suggests that you've just recently started playing and are unfamiliar with video gaming. I'll used to have a few links that had some good explanations of MMOs for people who weren't familiar with gaming. For the time being, you might want to look at some general gaming sites to understand how MMOs work.

[Zahstava]

Whether or not there is a legitimate class action here or not, the only people who'd gain anything from it are the lawyers. I've received notifications on numerous class actions, and the remedies are actually laughable. There is liability here on the part of Bioware, but one would hope they would do what's right and address the issue in a more palatable manner. If not, just do what I'm doing any never spend another penny on the CM. Until they prove otherwise, they cannot be trusted. Again I say, "Fool me once..."

[Brewski]

Every controversy brings a set of supposed lawsuit posts. Does anyone have an example of one of these actually being filed and making it to court? (Or even to a settlement for that matter.)

 

Seriously, I'm curious if any of these types of lawsuits have ever made it past the game forums. (In any game.)

[Quraswren]

But EA didn't take anything from you.

 

Incorrect. They took away a gamers favorable odds in something they paid cash money for and made such a change after saying one thing and did another.

 

They balanced the game.

 

What BW did was not balance. Not even close.

 

You were fine with loads of other balancing changes, but this one you decided to flail about and whine over.

 

Not me but I understand why some would. I'm no so narrow minded that I cannot see the fault BW set upon themselves. The slot machine change ws not balance. It was killing off a in game item ma y paid cash for after they told you it was OK but they would look into the jawa junk (nothing else) so people were inclined to keep buying them. Had they know the extent of the nerfing, you can bet your monthly CC's no one would have spent any more cash in trying to get a slot machine.

 

More to the point: You don't own the Slot Machine. EA does. You don't get to claim ownership. If it disappeared from your inventory tomorrow, you'd be hard pressed to justify any sort of legal action, as you can't file a complaint for someone stealing something you don't own.

 

In most cases in parts of the world that have better consumer digital protection laws, ownership doesn't ever have to be shown but the intent of actions. BW stated one things very clearly then did something else leading gamers to believe one things when something else was intended all along. Ownership here means nothing.

 

SNIP...

 

and for all your rambling, its clear you don't undestand how things things are different in other countries of the world. They cannot tell you one things and do another. They cannot sell you something, tell you it's OK. Tell you they are adjusting one thing but then turn the entire item into worthless digital gear AFTER you spend real money to get one and said digital item is why you spent money in the first place. No amount of TOS matters at that point. No amount of we change things all the time stand up.

 

Gamers were a bit mislead when it comes to the slot machine and it's so called balancing. BW made a mistake in their wording and did more then they claimed and some gamers spent additional cash in getting one based on knowledge BW gave them.

 

In some countries, that can be reviewed as a volition of their digital consumer rights.

 

Now, do I think it's worth trying to get a refund for? Not so much but I didn't spend any real money thinking one thing but then BW pulling the rug out from under me either.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Quraswren

[Zahstava]

Every controversy brings a set of supposed lawsuit posts. Does anyone have an example of one of these actually being filed and making it to court? (Or even to a settlement for that matter.)

 

Seriously, I'm curious if any of these types of lawsuits have ever made it past the game forums. (In any game.)

 

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/class-action-lawsuit-commenced-over-buggy-battlefield-4-ea-calls-it-meritless-update/1100-6416790/

"materially false and misleading statements"

 

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/29/service-valve-australian-consumer-watchdog

Failure to offer appropriate refunds.

 

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/01/23/psn-class-action-settlement-do-you-qualify

Failure to protect consumer interests.

 

There are many more. And no, none of these are for the exact situation, but still the answer to your question is yes.

[Malastare]

For example, if it could be found that EA banned me from playing because I'm gay, a court could indeed force them to continue to provide service.

 

No. SWTOR is not a utility. You could sue for damages, but they can't be compelled to provide service.

 

Look at the recent court rulings in Colorado forcing bakers to provide service to gay people getting married and wanting a wedding cake.

 

Look at the actual rulings. They can't force the bakers to supply service, or require that they always provide service to anyone in a particular category. They can punish them for continuing to refuse service in contradiction to the ruling. As a public shop, the bakers are required to abide by certain laws. Those laws require that if you allow public access, you must not discriminate against customers based on a number of protected criteria. However, you can still refuse service to customers for other reasons.

 

So far as I've seen, those laws don't apply to online services. And to be more on-topic, the reason for the termination of the account could not be considered discrimination.

 

If you're looking for a real-world example, imagine a bank. Let's say a bank decides to close your account because you've overdrawn your checking account by $2. That's their right. You might find some locations where a court would find that to be excessive and they might award damages, but I can't imagine any court forcing the bank to continue to provide service to you. What happens if the bank closes? The ruling says "Must keep providing service..." What if you rob the bank a dozen times? Ruling still says "Must keep providing service...."

 

See, that's why it doesn't work. All you can do is punish the wrongful termination of the account. Any optional service you have would just be terminated immediately afterward. SWTOR (and probably your bank) have clauses in their agreements that say they're allowed to terminate the account without notice, for any reason they see fit. A local court might say: "Nope. Can't cancel it for being Italian.", and that might get you a ruling, but there is nothing stopping them from cancelling it the day after, for filing a court case or for exceeding the amount of customer service time, or for publishing negative publicity.

[Quraswren]

Every controversy brings a set of supposed lawsuit posts. Does anyone have an example of one of these actually being filed and making it to court? (Or even to a settlement for that matter.)

 

Seriously, I'm curious if any of these types of lawsuits have ever made it past the game forums. (In any game.)

 

Currently the biggest I have kept up with since it hits closer is this:

 

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Blizzard-Forced-Give-Koreans-Refunds-Diablo-3-43844.html

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/blizzard-offices-raided-over-diablo-3-refund-policy-after-error-37-strikes-korean-gamers/

 

While it is not the exact same as this situation is does involve refunds and how other countries react as well as how their laws are much better for consumers. They deem blizzard TOS, " was potentially anti-consumerist"

 

In this situation I would not be shocked if someone someone lived their, they would have every reason should they want to get a refund and be backed by their countries own laws. BW says one thing, clearly goes overboard doing something else after continuing to take money for the packs.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Quraswren

[GuruVII]

Incorrect. They took away a gamers favorable odds in something they paid cash money for and made such a change after saying one thing and did another.

The last time I checked neither cartel coins nor in-game credits were a RL currency. What the players paid for are cartel coins and as long as player got those cartel coins, they got exactly what they paid for.

Just another benefit of having an intermediary between an in-game shop and a credit card.

Edited January 26, 2015 by GuruVII

[Pagy]

Yes, the drop rates of Jawa Junk. Not the drop rates of everything.

that's not how i read it.

 

And besides, I bought my slot machines before Eric posted, making his post beside the point. I saw how the machine worked in the game because my guild had one on our flagship, so I went and bought one for my personal stronghold.

 

So the warning means nothing anyway since I purchased before it.

they change things in the game all the time. it's their game. they warned you in the ToS that they may change things. get the QQ out of your system and move forward.

 

this game is completely bugged out and broken and you're whining about slot machines?

[Darth_Wicked]

this game is completely bugged out and broken and you're whining about slot machines?

 

This is what I find most puzzling.

 

Game has been stripped, over and over again, ever since Vanilla, but the very thing some people are most preoccupied is a slot machine.

 

That, in addition to some stuff post-SoR still not working as intended.

[Heat-Wave]

Whether or not there is a legitimate class action here or not, the only people who'd gain anything from it are the lawyers. I've received notifications on numerous class actions, and the remedies are actually laughable. There is liability here on the part of Bioware, but one would hope they would do what's right and address the issue in a more palatable manner. If not, just do what I'm doing any never spend another penny on the CM. Until they prove otherwise, they cannot be trusted. Again I say, "Fool me once..."

 

^ This, right here...

 

At the end of the day, we're the customers...