Annihilation | Watchman Specific Feedback

[oasisX]

@ oofalong

When I talked about DoT tracking, I meant more having to divide attention between maintaining a perfect rotation (so I wasn't being dead melee weight in terms of DPS) or maintaining my health pool by avoiding the many red reticles of Storm Squadron, or whatever actually happens during Bulo becuase I can't see through the tears to know what is actually happening during that fight. Yes when everything is going great DoT tracking is not an issue due to fancy monkey-mode light-up effects to remind us how to play the spec. It just gets overwhelming when you're trying to do your job but trying to do everything else at once. Pre 3.0 there was no real thought put into the core rotation: you just did it via muscle memory...with the spec being so easy to play you had much more room to be creative and aware of your surroundings. I just don't get that feeling anymore even though I feel I'm doing pretty well as one of the few survivors of the great Annihilation Devastation of 2014. So please understand that I am not having an issue executing the spec nor am I seeking to be told that it's just "a simple thing that for some reason people don't grasp". I am simply giving my view as one who is always adapting and trying to find different ways to justify my Marauder's worthiness in these new raids with how this spec now plays. (IE Why take a marauder to this fight when ranged can just do whatever they want on the move and avoiding all this damage and crap without having to put a major pause in their DPS)

 

Now that that is cleared out of the way, I'll address what I can until next time.

 

The sundering suggestion was just thrown out there becuase I am extremely bitter that Carnage recieved an armour debuff out of all the specs. Yeah sure it's nice they do for when they quickly target switch for added burst but as of 3.0 we no longer have that issue. I am not in favour of having to bring at least 1 specific spec just to get an armour debuff. If I raid on my sniper, I do not want to be forced to run Marksmanship JUST to provide an armour debuff if say the group comp had no way of applying an armour debuff. Maybe if it was a super prog raid then things could be swapped...but otherwise the point is to have fun, and I can assure that I will not be having fun if I'm forced to play a spec I do not enjoy just to provide a debuff. So many the alternative is to just give tanks the debuff, but that's another rant for another thread. Still though...an armour debuff for us when we're forced to be on Underbugger adds, or the dogs in Sparky? That'd be fly as hell.

 

Yes the base damage went up slightly, as did the duration I get all that...it still just feels like a pathetic DoT to put onto a target in my opinion. Like throwing Corrosive Dart when doing Marksmanship...it's good hell yeah but the feels just are not there. It just feels dirty.

 

@ MorgenBlue

I honestly thought that Force Rend was going to be an upgraded version of Rupture when I first heard about it. Really wish that had been the case.

 

@ Stippling

Hah, now that's an idea. Using it as a rage generator would be pretty damn awesome, as long as the target is bleeding you can x amount of rage. Honestly it would be an interesting mechanic to add in, because then they could remove the range requirement on it (or keep some of it for easier target switching), becuase it is kind of dumb to watch yourself leap in place doin a frontflip like it's the normal thing to do.

 

@ Ardarell_Solo

I like the proposed rotation, it really feels like the pre-3.0 rotation which most of us miss. The only thing I can't agree with is this 1 GCD Ravage. That is the most important thing about the skill...it gives me at least 2.5 seconds to blow my nose, get a quick drink, tab out to change my song, or get a much needed yawn before I have to Annihilate again. How could you propose to take this away from me? D:

 

The animation change for Ravage would need to be changed in my opinion as well...I honestly never liked our version for it as it's kinda clunky and seems really formless in terms of combat style, but what to change it to I have no idea. Maybe we can steal the Vengeful Slam and add in another jump attack but give it some cool dark (or light) force effects like that of Rend/Melt.

 

Another idea I had awhile back but never said anything because reasons...what if we had Rend/Melt work like Lightning's Affliction? Give us the old rotation back (sorta), and let Rupture refresh the DoT (You know...re-rupturing the wound). Be a ton of room to free up for GCD blocks, especially for sub 30%. For the sorcs it really does free up a GCD to add in another skill use even with the added skill, but all in all it was a HUGE convenience to give them by not having to waste a GCD just to put on an already long DoT. But was just an idea I've had since the PTS that I always wanted to actually try.

 

But sleep time.

[Ardarell_Solo]

@ Ardarell_Solo

I like the proposed rotation, it really feels like the pre-3.0 rotation which most of us miss. The only thing I can't agree with is this 1 GCD Ravage. That is the most important thing about the skill...it gives me at least 2.5 seconds to blow my nose, get a quick drink, tab out to change my song, or get a much needed yawn before I have to Annihilate again. How could you propose to take this away from me? D:

 

*g* Had I known about that, I wouldn't ever have suggested it my friend. I'm afraid it would look stupid as well. As I added, maybe we have to find room somewhere else, not by speeding up Ravage.

 

 

Another idea I had awhile back but never said anything because reasons...what if we had Rend/Melt work like Lightning's Affliction? Give us the old rotation back (sorta), and let Rupture refresh the DoT (You know...re-rupturing the wound). Be a ton of room to free up for GCD blocks, especially for sub 30%. For the sorcs it really does free up a GCD to add in another skill use even with the added skill, but all in all it was a HUGE convenience to give them by not having to waste a GCD just to put on an already long DoT. But was just an idea I've had since the PTS that I always wanted to actually try.

 

But sleep time.

 

That's actually an interesting take on the matter, though it'd basically would just mean that Rend is a substitute for Melt (once we're done with the opener). And we wouldn't have the proc mechanic of the old playstyle, so I don't know if that would be fun...

Edited January 28, 2015 by Ardarell_Solo

[Sapperlot]

@ Adarell Solo

Your suggestet rotation sound nice. And i realy would love to see an 1.5s Ravage, that must be look funnie:rolleyes:

We would need another animation or an replacement for Ravage / Master Strike because an other question is how much the dev´s wantet that we use alacrity which would made Ravage / Master Strike even faster.

I don´t believe that we get such an change with an new animation bevore an bigger expansion but maybe BW rember this if the next one is announced.

 

But....what would be if...

Force Rent / Melt become an replacement for Ravage / Master Strike?

At 3 Stacks an hard hitting ability?

In addition Vicious Throw / Dispatch use above 30% and give an Proc Chance to cauterize like you suggestet?

 

Like this: (Yes i have stolen this:D)

Merciless Slash -> proc on Cauterize

Force Leap

Force Melt

Cauterize

 

Merciless Slash -> no proc on Cauterize

Dispatch -> proc on Cauterize

Zealous Strike

Cauterize

 

Merciless Slash -> proc on Cauterize

Double Saber Throw

Force Leap

Cauterize

 

Merciless Slash -> proc on Cauterize

Strike

Force Melt

Cauterize

 

Merciless Slash -> proc on Cauterize

Dispatch

Force Leap

Cauterize

 

Merciless Slash -> no proc on Cauterize

Slash -> proc on Cauterize

Zealous Strike

Cauterize

 

Merciless Slash -> proc on Cauterize

Double Saber Throw

Force Melt

Cauterize

 

This would probably solve the problem with the proc of DST / TDT too. So we could keep our suggestet cooldown reset. In addition we would have another range ability wich would maybe help the PvP guy´s (I dont play it myself)

 

Someone who is better in Theory crafting and Math can maybe say if that would be overpowerd but i don´t think so. It is only a change between ability´s.

[CameoCream]

If we are ignoring the overall bias towards rDPS in the new tier of operations then I see Sents/Maras heading in two directions

 

• Either give the class a significant overall DPS buff to compensate for the downtime mDPS suffer from mechanics in the new operations. Currently rDPS dominate the Dummy Parsing leaderboards whereas melee should always be parsing higher, not lower as is being seen at the moment. Either buff us along with other mDPS or nerf the rDPS to balance it all out. Personally I would like to see a damage increase.
  

• Or massively simplify our rotation. Our equivalent class (Sniper/Gunslinger), has a much shorter and more effective rotation - and is currently out parsing sentinels on Dummies and in operations. I believe the Sabo rotation is 12GCDs, compared to a 24GCD Watchman/Annihilation rotation.
  

• This needs to change, or make the trade off between simplicity and ease of play worthwhile. I would glady keep all the punishing mechanics and problems with mDPS uptime if we were able to dish out more damage compared to rDPS. However, the exact opposite is plainly true.
  

 

Having played Sentinel since 2.0, been a top parser for my server for awhile- the new breed of watchman is... very boring. I do not enjoy the changes as much, and dishing out less damage compared to ranged for a more complicated rotation annoys me, as you can probably tell. I still love the class, its just not as exciting as it used to be.

 

I've cleared 8/10 for the new operations on my Sentinel, very close to 9/10 at the moment. So being a melee in the new hard modes is not impossible, but I have rDPS'd them as well... and by god it was far easier!

I'd love to see some punishing ranged mechanics for once Bioware.

Edited February 20, 2015 by CameoCream

[Ardarell_Solo]

make the trade off between simplicity and ease of play worthwhile. I would glady keep all the punishing mechanics and problems with mDPS uptime if we were able to dish out more damage compared to rDPS. However, the exact opposite is plainly true.

 

Agreed!

 

Having played Sentinel since 2.0, been a top parser for my server for awhile- the new breed of watchman is... very boring. I do not enjoy the changes as much, and dishing out less damage compared to ranged for a more complicated rotation annoys me, as you can probably tell. I still love the class, its just not as exciting as it used to be.

 

*signed*

 

I've cleared 8/10 for the new operations on my Sentinel, very close to 9/10 at the moment. So being a melee in the new hard modes is not impossible, but I have rDPS'd them as well... and by god it was far easier!

I'd love to see some punishing ranged mechanics for once Bioware.

 

Still at 7/10 for group setup reasons. And every time I clear the same bosses on my Sage, it's just so much easier, it's not even funny...

[OmegaStatuZ]

I think what would help is giving the 30% alacrity to all specs upon activation of Berserk, in which this could last 8-10 seconds. While we still benefit from "next x bleeds have 100% crit". Also, 30% of our ICDs for resource management would be shortened, also all specs would get shortened channeled ravage as well as our DoT speed and just all around a better QoL for our class. i believe that we were meant to be quick and nimble as well as striking fast and hard. This is my 2 cents, so feel free to expand on this if you think this is a good idea or completely shoot it down xD

 

---Atrixx at the Ebon Hawk

P.S Typing on my phone

[g_mK]

I think what would help is giving the 30% alacrity to all specs upon activation of Berserk, in which this could last 8-10 seconds. While we still benefit from "next x bleeds have 100% crit". Also, 30% of our ICDs for resource management would be shortened, also all specs would get shortened channeled ravage as well as our DoT speed and just all around a better QoL for our class. i believe that we were meant to be quick and nimble as well as striking fast and hard. This is my 2 cents, so feel free to expand on this if you think this is a good idea or completely shoot it down xD

 

---Atrixx at the Ebon Hawk

P.S Typing on my phone

 

That wouldn't work since is a substantial dps boost for concentration and watchman while leaving out combat in the dust. Also the core problem of watchman is that a whole rotation is 24 GCD's and alacrity will not change this(reduces overall time but not the amount of GCD's).

Edited February 24, 2015 by g_mK

[gfmasterrobbie]

Well with the uptime problems we have that long range dot classes arent plagued with, Why not let annihilate refresh our dots, and dual saber throw spread them? Seems balanced because it wouldnt make us overpowered aoe wise and we could strongly pressure a single target in pvp easier. If thats too much, they could even return cooldowns to our dots to balance it out and make it more dynamic.

[Ardarell_Solo]

Well with the uptime problems we have that long range dot classes arent plagued with, Why not let annihilate refresh our dots, and dual saber throw spread them? Seems balanced because it wouldnt make us overpowered aoe wise and we could strongly pressure a single target in pvp easier. If thats too much, they could even return cooldowns to our dots to balance it out and make it more dynamic.

 

I undestand how that would be good for PvP with all the target switching going on. But for PvE it would mean that 75% of your rotation on a single target would consist of fillers, once you've applied your dots. That's not exactly "dynamic". Bringing back the Cooldown on Dots (which I woud like to see) only makes sense, if we have some kind of proc system to them, like we had pre 3.0.

[DynamiCtagez]

Watchman is currently the worst of the 3 specs for PvP if you actually want to kill something. It's good for high numbers but you will never kill a half decent healer on your own. I also tried it in group ranked with my team and it's definitely the worst spec. It's literally impossible to pressure anybody, especially with all the roots flying around. Combat and Concentration are the better choices atm but still very lackluster.

 

Short, hard-ticking DoTs used to be the core of Watchman. Cauterize ticked more often in a short duration and Overload Saber hit for a lot more. This is what made the spec so viable in PvP. In combination with the self-heals it was a very fluent and well-rounded spec. And this is what it needs again: Shorter/harder-hitting (non-spammable) DoTs and the return of a decent self-heal. Either the old 2% on crits or more similar to Serenity/Hatred with a constant DoT-heal that's not depending on crits but heals less. I'd definitely prefer the former though.

Plus I'd much rather see Force Melt becoming a hard hitting single target ability, that maybe replaces Bladestorm and refreshes the other DoTs on the target.

Also DoT-spread on DST seems absolutely necessary or AT LEAST make Smash free, so the spread actually fits in our rotation.

Edited February 25, 2015 by DynamiCtagez

[Ardarell_Solo]

Short, hard-ticking DoTs used to be the core of Watchman. Cauterize ticked more often in a short duration and Overload Saber hit for a lot more. This is what made the spec so viable in PvP. In combination with the self-heals it was a very fluent and well-rounded spec. And this is what it needs again: Shorter/harder-hitting (non-spammable) DoTs and the return of a decent self-heal. Either the old 2% on crits or more similar to Serenity/Hatred with a constant DoT-heal that's not depending on crits but heals less. I'd definitely prefer the former though.

Plus I'd much rather see Force Melt becoming a hard hitting single target ability, that maybe replaces Bladestorm and refreshes the other DoTs on the target.

Also DoT-spread on DST seems absolutely necessary or AT LEAST make Smash free, so the spread actually fits in our rotation.

 

Totally agree on your analysis and suggestions for PvE as well - except for Force Melt reappliying Dots, since that would mean to many fillers in the rotation. Apart from that, that would be a spec I'd love to play again :-)

[Icezera]

I on the other hand, am part of the group that likes the current Annihilation Marauder, especially Force Melt. Given the distinctly unfriendly nature of current ops to melee, we NEED a hard hitting ranged dot which Force Melt provides. Furthermore, I don't understand people who say that they cannot keep track of dots. The 36 second rotation is broken down into many blocks that you can restart at any time and in any point if you are somehow distanced from your target.

 

The only change I would make is to give dot spreading to TST and reducing the cooldown of force leap to give us higher mobility and uptime on targets. Force leap could definitely use a baseline cooldown. I never understood why Guardians who are tankier than us have the same cooldown on Force Leap as we do. If Guardians are the bruiser mdps, we are glass cannon and making us have equal mobility is a big design flaw. Disregard predation because we need those berserk stacks to keep up our dps in an environment where many rpds are outdpsing us and a Marauder who doesn't use berserk is not much better in dps compared to a Guardian who sacrifices nothing for better utility, survivability, and comparable damage.

[Ardarell_Solo]

Curious: Have you been playing Annihilation / Watchman in the pre 3.0. version?

 

My problem with Dots is not so much tracking them (though it's stupid to have melee be the only Dot class in which there are three different Dot durations and the two Dots you have to take care of are a stupid 3:2 in ratio (18s Force Melt, 12s Cauterize), which is just trolling the player imo;-) )

 

The problem is target switching. Watchman used to be ok at it, if you knew how to do it. Now that a big amount of our DPS in in the Dots, we suck at everything that dies <10 secs.

 

I know that we have the burst specs to be really good at that stuff, but that's the exact design decision that bothers me: Before 3.0 you had Combat/Carnage for Burst, Smash for AoE and Watchman/Annihilation for a dotty Hybrid. And the last was what everyone loved about it.

 

Now the three specs are all very much specialized. Devs probably thought Disciplines make respeccing easier so it's not an issue. But firstly it's still a lot of shifting stuff around in your quickbar, if you sort and keybind everything according to rotation priorities like I do, and secondly I always rather stuck to one spec and tried to iron out its weaknesses by totally committing myself to it and practice it in difficult situations to make it work even for the stuff it's not been primarily designed for.

 

But now trying to make Watchman / Anni work for quick target switching is pretty much impossible, spec is just not meant for it anymore. That's much of the fun I always had playing SWTOR suddenly gone...

[oofalong]

I haven't posted here in a while mainly because there appears to be little appetite on BioWare's part to change things. We had our moment in the sun with 3.1.1, which resulted in some PvP Utility changes. With 3.2 going on the PTS now, and no mention of Mara/Sent changes I do not expect anything to change for quite some time, which is really sad and disappointing.

 

I know there is a big divide between those who are OK with the new playstyle and those who strongly prefer the old style. In my opinion the new playstyle does work, particularly on a Combat Dummy; however, given all of the anti-melee measures in the new Operations, the playstyle becomes too strained and too limiting. As Adarell_Solo mentioned above, target switching is a problem, so is AoE damage, so is forced downtime, etc.

 

Other's have said it as well, but fundamentally the challenges of the new operations means most player will benefit from switching from the Mara/Sent to a rDPS or PT/Vanguard. (Content is still clearable as a Mara/Sent; it's just harder and more frustrating.)

 

I hope we get back to a time when Maras/Sents are worthwhile again.

[Ardarell_Solo]

I agree with your analysis of the situation.

 

I'm wondering about this:

 

I know there is a big divide between those who are OK with the new playstyle and those who strongly prefer the old style.

 

I'd love to see numbers about this. You get the occasional advocate for the new playstyle here on the forums, but forums are not the best place to deduce actual percentages of players in the game as a whole.

 

What also startles me, is that since 3.0. launched, I've had the chance to talk to pretty much all the Sent/Mara players I know on T3-M4 on Teamspeak/Mumble - and I haven't heard one single player embrace the new Watchman/Annihilation. The only question I ever hear is "El'ethon, do you maybe know, when we're going to see major changes?"

 

Many of them use their former Sent/Mara main as an alt for farming gear/comms, but have rerolled a different class for progression. And the casual players I know have all switched to Fury/Concentration. Looking at HM OP leaderboards on Parsely, you can also tell that progression Watchmen/Anni maras are a dying breed.

 

It's such a pity what's become of a spec that used to be one of the best to bring to progression raiding and totally solid for casual play as well.

 

Myself, I'm more upset every single day about what's happened to the spec that made me fall in love with this game in the first place.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Ardarell_Solo

[Atlanis]

Sentinels in general are dying out.

 

At the moment we have like half a dozen Mara/Sent Mains on JKS who can run Hardmode and only a handful of guild raids who accept them. If nothing happens I believe as of 3.2. no Sent will be there when Nightmare opens up on JKS. All remaining Sents who intent to go Nightmare are currently rolling other ACs for DPS Alts.

 

Guardian just hit Level 40. Equip has been stored in the Legacy bank.

 

I have no hope for Sentinels. Just give up they will never listen. Neither if you enrage nor if you try constructive critizism. So I won´t bother with any constructive Feedback until they start communicating. Btw. 3.1.1. is a Nerf a very big one as we have no Def CD that remains under 3min CD. Oh yeah we got Rebuke which is broken like Zealous Ward as of 3.1.. Anyone know when we can expect a fix?

[Xenphon]

I agree with your analysis of the situation.

 

I'm wondering about this:

 

 

 

I'd love to see numbers about this. You get the occasional advocate for the new playstyle here on the forums, but forums are not the best place to deduce actual percentages of players in the game as a whole.

 

What also startles me, is that since 3.0. launched, I've had the chance to talk to pretty much all the Sent/Mara players I know on T3-M4 on Teamspeak/Mumble - and I haven't heard one single player embrace the new Watchman/Annihilation. The only question I ever hear is "El'ethon, do you maybe know, when we're going to see major changes?"

 

Many of them use their former Sent/Mara main as an alt for farming gear/comms, but have rerolled a different class for progression. And the casual players I know have all switched to Fury/Concentration. Looking at HM OP leaderboards on Parsely, you can also tell that progression Watchmen/Anni maras are a dying breed.

 

It's such a pity what's become of a spec that used to be one of the best to bring to progression raiding and totally solid for casual play as well.

 

Myself, I'm more upset every single day about what's happened to the spec that made me fall in love with this game in the first place.

 

I made the decision two weeks back to make the switch to PT. After the lack of communication and nothing but pvp changes in 3.1.1 I had no choice if I wanted to help my guild achieve progress when NiM comes out. The harder fights highlight the struggles marauders currently have, and as such, there is no point making it harder for the guild. It's a shame to see the class go from being perfectly viable in PvE and PvP pre 3.0 to its current iteration.

 

BW failed to meet their clear statements that melee > ranged when it came to raw damage output (100% uptime). Melee is not even equal, and then you add the mechanics... Life is hard for non PTs these days. Unfortunately I share Oofalong's predicition that we will not see any changes any time soon. PvE-wise we need a damage buff to bridge the current gap between ranged and melee, especially given the mechanics. I doubt the mechanics will be changed much whenever NiM comes. If anything, they will simply add more on top of the existing ones; adding to the problem. The timeframe for NiM is months away, I think, so I very much doubt there will be a single raider with mara as his main raiding character when it is released. That is a significant different from 2.x. There should be several bells clamouring at BW at the moment. The few Revan kills, especially first time kills, consist of groups of Bounty Hunters, with perhaps one other class present.

[oofalong]

I'm wondering about this:

 

Originally Posted by oofalong View Post

I know there is a big divide between those who are OK with the new playstyle and those who strongly prefer the old style.

I'd love to see numbers about this. You get the occasional advocate for the new playstyle here on the forums, but forums are not the best place to deduce actual percentages of players in the game as a whole.

 

I agree I wish there was a way to get good data here. How much of the dissatisfaction is attributable to the class changes and how much to the anti-melee encounters? All we can do is guess. The handful of Maras/Sents that I have talked to, who are OK with the new rotation, have for the most part done exactly this:

 

I made the decision two weeks back to make the switch...I had no choice if I wanted to help my guild achieve progress when NiM comes out. The harder fights highlight the struggles marauders currently have, and as such, there is no point making it harder for the guild. It's a shame to see the class go from being perfectly viable in PvE and PvP pre 3.0 to its current iteration.

[Ardarell_Solo]

You're right Xenphon: The more interesting fights are and the more difficult their mechanics are, the more problematic our class gets.

 

Which, apart from melee unfriendly mechanics, is due to the fact that it's not half as versatile as it used to be when it had its short hard ticking dots and a rotation you could execute when improvising.

 

I must say that the shorter Cooldown on Master Strike and the necessity to fit it in for Max DPS has aggravated that (talking Torque HM e.g., where this is hardly possible). Vigilance Guardians had always been complaining about that aspect as the most problematic one for a melee spec. Why one of the worst elements of melee class design had to be introduced to Watchman/Annihilation is once again beyond me...

[Xenphon]

You're right Xenphon: The more interesting fights are and the more difficult their mechanics are, the more problematic our class gets.

 

Which, apart from melee unfriendly mechanics, is due to the fact that it's not half as versatile as it used to be when it had its short hard ticking dots and a rotation you could execute when improvising.

 

I must say that the shorter Cooldown on Master Strike and the necessity to fit it in for Max DPS has aggravated that (talking Torque HM e.g., where this is hardly possible). Vigilance Guardians had always been complaining about that aspect as the most problematic one for a melee spec. Why one of the worst elements of melee class design had to be introduced to Watchman/Annihilation is once again beyond me...

 

This is all true, and what I hoped BW would realise before they even started up 3.1.1 on the PTS. The harder fights in the new operations make it crystal clear how much of a disadvantage it is to take a melee that's not a PT. You actually get depressed in certain fights where you know, regardless of how much effort and skill you put into your play, you're a burden on the team. One night on Revan was enough for me to realise there is no room for marauders in the new operations under the current circumstances. Any progression raider is better off gearing and familiarising himself with a character that will actively help the team when NiM hits. I'll try and keep my mara as well geared as possible in the instance BW actually do some proper changes, but it would be a massive mistake to wager on that. 3.1.1 left no illusions that we can expect that.

 

The sad part is how BW communicated their balance plans before SoR. They clearly stated that melee > ranged and sustained > burst when it came to dps. I have yet to see that happen, and they have had a fair amount of time to rectify those issues by now.

 

The changes we asked for would help solve of the problems, but I honestly think they need to look at the current damage values and edit those to achieve their stated balance aims. It's rather obvious that the only way classes such as marauders can be viable in fights like Revan and Torque you have to buff our damage to make up for the downtime ranged do not have at all. Unfortunately that would probably offset pvp, so it may not be possible. The options to achieve balance are therefore reduced. The mechanics in the operations will not be changed, as I doubt BW would be willing to change SM/HM outside of obvious bugs. That's why I also believe NiM will only exacerbate the situation. There will be more damage going out and new mechanics on top of the old ones. More of the "good stuff", in other words.

 

Toning down the damage of strong classes in PvE would again offset pvp, and is therefore often avoided. I do think it's rather obvious that there has to be some damage buff to melee and damage nerf to ranged (especially IO merc) to bring balance to PvE. I do not see that coming yet, so the current problems will persist until the new operations, I fear. SoR will therefore be riddled with a small population of melee as mains in PvE. The game has always struggled to make mechanics affect melee and ranged equally, but it's been fine until now. SoR made it unbearable for any progression raider and will continue to uphold that bad reputation for a while longer. The questions will also be close at hand for us marauders|sentinels and other melee:

 

"Will this occur again? Is there any point to return to our class if they will keep doing this?"

 

I hope my predicitions are wrong, but SoR and then 3.1.1 have not left me with much faith. Hell, how these obvious balance and operation issues escaped the fairly extensive beta period is beyond me. Bells should have rung in the heads of all melee if they actually invested some hours into the beta.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Xenphon

[Projawa]

This is all true, and what I hoped BW would realise before they even started up 3.1.1 on the PTS. The harder fights in the new operations make it crystal clear how much of a disadvantage it is to take a melee that's not a PT. You actually get depressed in certain fights where you know, regardless of how much effort and skill you put into your play, you're a burden on the team. One night on Revan was enough for me to realise there is no room for marauders in the new operations under the current circumstances. Any progression raider is better off gearing and familiarising himself with a character that will actively help the team when NiM hits. I'll try and keep my mara as well geared as possible in the instance BW actually do some proper changes, but it would be a massive mistake to wager on that. 3.1.1 left no illusions that we can expect that.

 

The sad part is how BW communicated their balance plans before SoR. They clearly stated that melee > ranged and sustained > burst when it came to dps. I have yet to see that happen, and they have had a fair amount of time to rectify those issues by now.

 

The changes we asked for would help solve of the problems, but I honestly think they need to look at the current damage values and edit those to achieve their stated balance aims. It's rather obvious that the only way classes such as marauders can be viable in fights like Revan and Torque you have to buff our damage to make up for the downtime ranged do not have at all. Unfortunately that would probably offset pvp, so it may not be possible. The options to achieve balance are therefore reduced. The mechanics in the operations will not be changed, as I doubt BW would be willing to change SM/HM outside of obvious bugs. That's why I also believe NiM will only exacerbate the situation. There will be more damage going out and new mechanics on top of the new ones. More of the "good stuff", in other words.

 

Toning down the damage of strong classes in PvE would again offset pvp, and is therefore often avoided. I do think it's rather obvious that there has to be some damage buff to melee and damage nerf to ranged (especially IO merc) to bring balance to PvE. I do not see that coming yet, so the current problems will persist until the new operations, I fear. SoR will therefore be riddled with a small population of melee as mains in PvE. The game has always struggled to make mechanics affect melee and ranged equally, but it's been fine until now. SoR made it unbearable for any progression raider and will continue to uphold that bad reputation for a while longer. The questions will also be close at hand for us marauders|sentinels and other melee:

 

"Will this occur again? Is there any point to return to our class if they will keep doing this?"

 

I hope my predicitions are wrong, but SoR and then 3.1.1 have not left me with much faith. Hell, how these obvious balance and operation issues escaped the fairly extensive beta period is beyond me. Bells should have rung in the heads of all melee if they actually invested some hours into the beta.

 

I agree- a ranged tax is needed. I know they have long since moved away from the hybrid tax, but they've not delivered on the ranged penalty they talked about in that dev stream. Add in the impact on pvp balance and it's no surprise they are hesitant about it.

 

I terms of ops mechanics, I think it's something that BW has already given up on. Their priority is to make interesting mechanics, not necessarily mechanics that don't punish melee. I'm sure it's regrettable to them but it's not something they will go out of their way to rectify. This game's class/combat design is derivative of WoW. WoW has been biased in favor of ranged dps for most of its life so in BW's mind, if WoW can get away with it, so can TOR. Plus, they can rationalize it to themselves with the argument that since this is such an alt-friendly game, any serious PVEer should just ditch their melee class, roll a ranged class and get on with it.

 

Significant changes won't happen before 4.0, if ever.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Projawa

[Xenphon]

I suppose most games tend to favour ranged. It simply easier to tax melee with mechanics, it seems. Up until SoR I did not mind that, though. The difference between melee and ranged never reached the current level of imbalance, both damage- and mechanics-wise. You had to be quick on your feet, react to whatever happened and continue dpsing based on that. Skilled players had no problems doing that, and they were rewarded for it. Marauders have always been able to output good damage despite the harder challenges of being melee. The balance was not perfect, but we were perfectly viable if you did your job. I enjoyed that a lot, especially as carnage up until 2.8 (I believe, may have been 2.7. Before they changed how gore functioned). Annihilation was also fun, challenging and rewarding. You had a dynamic within which you held the possibility to excel or struggle.

 

The above description cannot be said 3.x. Progression raiders really only have one viable spec, in my mind, and that spec has been changed for the worse. We may see better times before 4.0, but I doubt it will be while we're doing the current operations, HM or NiM. It requires too much effort from BW to fix the problems. The operations' mechanics are inherently vicious to melee. Even if the damage of lightning and IO are toned down to the necessary level (which it seems BW are doing somewhat based on the pts patch notes) you'd still have mechanics that would be left untouched. The only way to bridge that gap is to buff our overall damage in PvE, but due to what it'd do in PvP it will never happen. As such, the mechanics are the bane of melee. You'd much rather take a slightly nerfed lignting sorc or IO merc into any of the current boss fights than a marauder.

[Projawa]

I suppose most games tend to favour ranged. It simply easier to tax melee with mechanics, it seems. Up until SoR I did not mind that, though. The difference between melee and ranged never reached the current level of imbalance, both damage- and mechanics-wise. You had to be quick on your feet, react to whatever happened and continue dpsing based on that. Skilled players had no problems doing that, and they were rewarded for it. Marauders have always been able to output good damage despite the harder challenges of being melee. The balance was not perfect, but we were perfectly viable if you did your job. I enjoyed that a lot, especially as carnage up until 2.8 (I believe, may have been 2.7. Before they changed how gore functioned). Annihilation was also fun, challenging and rewarding. You had a dynamic within which you held the possibility to excel or struggle.

 

The above description cannot be said 3.x. Progression raiders really only have one viable spec, in my mind, and that spec has been changed for the worse. We may see better times before 4.0, but I doubt it will be while we're doing the current operations, HM or NiM. It requires too much effort from BW to fix the problems. The operations' mechanics are inherently vicious to melee. Even if the damage of lightning and IO are toned down to the necessary level (which it seems BW are doing somewhat based on the pts patch notes) you'd still have mechanics that would be left untouched. The only way to bridge that gap is to buff our overall damage in PvE, but due to what it'd do in PvP it will never happen. As such, the mechanics are the bane of melee. You'd much rather take a slightly nerfed lignting sorc or IO merc into any of the current boss fights than a marauder.

 

Well said. Marauders have been in a pretty good spot from launch to the end of 2.0 and the mechanics were never as punishing as they are now so it remains to be seen if/how they can get marauders back on track.

 

I think it's funny that the best thing they did for carnage (gore reset mechanic in 2.0) was actually a mistake on their part, while all the conscious effort in 3.0 they put into reworking annihilation and trying to make carnage the easy spec(it isn't) has actually backfired.

 

Again, don't expect sents to get some serious PVE improvements soon if ever. Look at operative dps and how long they've been in the shythole.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Projawa